[–]TheThinkyThing
But why would LE focus on TH? They could use a drug addicted sex worker as the "fall-girl" and not someone with potential family roots... It's way more risky? I do think the quarry was controlled by the police, but I still can't figure out what happened here and why?
[–]Booty_Grazer
PLANNED & executed, as planned with a willing asset, TERESA. It would have been so much easier to execute Jody. Then again why execute anyone??? Just give the illusions of a murder using a willing asset. It's not astrophysics here.
[–]Booty_Grazer
Walking away LMAO at Teresa killed...
When you or anyone else shows one just one iota of 100% proof Teresa is dead. "Bring it"
The DOJ made sure nothing could identify as Teresa even DNA. You've been sold a truck load of BS and wanting to buy more...
[–]Habundia
That's my thinking. In this case specifically I want to see evidence of Teresa being dead. There is 0 evidence of it. They had multiple things of TH which would have given a perfect DNA sample for Teresa, yet they only had her mother's DNA? Her death certificate is dubious. The bones that have been destroyed are dubious. There are just to many mysteries for one to say with certainty she died because of murder (or illness, which also is said). For me, this woman is still a 'missing person case', with tons of questions to be answered.
[–]Habundia
I do not think ilness killed her if she has died, it's a theory that's been spread around. I think it's too convenient.
[–]Booty_Grazer
Illness 2 weeks before Steve was 100% going to win his case after the depositions 2 weeks after Teresa's disappearance ....Nope, this was planned starting the day the DOJ knew Steve's DNA didn't match the hairs on Penny B, 05/2002.
[–]black-dog-barks
Let's not forget she gave AT her notice and her cat was at the vet getting it's shots updated as Hawaii has strict laws regarding animals coming onto the islands with their pet parents.
[–]Booty_Grazer
30-day quarantine alternate program in any Hawaii island after completed shots, no matter cat or dog. It was 120 days till 2003.
https://old.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/bkkt58/involved_indirectly/
When you know the alleged victim is alive, how much effort do you put in... LOL
Everyone has to understand.... The Dassey computer was flagged by LE because of the specific web searches...
They then placed TH as a paid CI to watch and report on the ASY activities hoping to find SA was involved with using the Dassey computer.
On Oct 31, after BoD had set up a meeting on Kuss Rd. to meet TH he was taken down by MCSD after he attempted to assault TH.
Bobby was placed in a big Black SUV .... and told how this was going down... he cooperates with the PD, and puts TH going into SA trailer... that is all you need to do to stay out of jail for the next 20 years...
From Kuss Rd the planting began to take SA down. Slam dunk... bing bang boom...
TH never died, Carmen B was used as a decoy... coroner not allowed because of the ruse...
And why PoG , finds the SUV so easy...
See it's not all that hard folks... to MAKE A MURDERER.
I believe that serendipity indeed played a role in TH untimely demise, and MTSO capitalized on her misfortune...
It just dawned on me...The Z family must not observe Halloween, because a mere 4 days later, neither GZ, Jo Ellen Z nor JZ could locate their own front door, from inside their own house...as Huey, Duey and Lewy milled around the front porch, rapping feverishly ...
One would assume that a person could quite readily find the door to their own house...and what is that infernal DING! DONG! ??...jeezus H...does anyone actually believe this bullshit?...
I think GZ awoke from a mid-afternoon drunken stupor, he was drinkin' instead of workin', his alibi whereabouts was never verified(NO, it was not), he was startled by TH coming up the side of the house, she turns, raises her camera, he thinks it is a gun, accidentally shot her, thinking she was an intruder...
He then called his LE connection(life-long buddy) GK..."hey Gene, I fucked up, I really need your help...".....the rest of it falls into place as MTSO holds all the cards...and spare me the "it's TOO complicated, TOO many people involved..." because that is simply not true...GK had access to ALL the "evidence", he had plenty of time to consult with interested persons (DV, TK), and it is my belief that JL planted evidence while AC attempted distraction...everyone else merely did their jobs, turned a blind eye,
GZ and JeZ are provided with their story...JZ wasn't actually there for it, so he doesn't know for sure what went down...but JeZ and GZ sure as fuck do...and look at how they subsequently behave? FFS, these people are totally lost, in their own home? C'mon...
Why won't the Z family answer their door?
Because GK didn't include GZ in the larger plans, that's why... so GZ freaked when he sees the three stooges on the front stoop...and JeZ is just following hubby's lead...GZ was on the phone to GK getting the "story" straight...one look at the nonsense that ultimately transpired and those of us with one iota of common sense can see that these idiots are taking their cues from someone behind the scene ...JeZ can't be sure of anything?...that's what the cops are telling her ...and she is hanging out the bathroom window talking to cops?..WTF is going on in Manitowoc?...GZ comes across as senile or suffering from dementia...none of this behavior passes the smell test...
But nobody gives a shit what we know...all that matters is what KZ can prove...
[–]HuNuWutWen
I decided a long time ago to stop wasting my critical thinking skills on falsified information...
...how the hell could I expect to make sense of all this obviously planted evidence, and the ridiculously fake investigation, all these lying cops shuffling around like fucking morons, Kratz spewing fabricated garbage to the media, while Willis the village idiot strokes his kangaroo ?...
...Like most, I no longer have the time or patience to entertain all of the falsity, it makes me feel stupid, it insults my intellect...
... Therefore, I have settled on 2 undeniable items of FACT...
1. Teresa was alive, well, and driving HER Rav4, at 2:27 pm, and she carried on a 4:45 min. conversation...so, for the purpose of determining what allegedly happened to Teresa, this chronological point is of critical significance, obviously...
...there is NO EVIDENCE that Teresa actually visited the Zips, so unless and until someone produces material evidence, it did not happen. Period....
...But, her Cell activity indicates that she tried to find it, called the Zips, didn't hear back, so she went on to the address she recognized, Avery Road...that's what happened, logical grown-ups understand this is what happened, normal reasonable people see this as blatantly obvious...
... regarding Teresa's cellular activity...
...the last 3 pings on her activity report were INCOMING calls, FROM 2192(3), 2 minutes elapses then handed off to 2192(1), then 14 minutes elapses, and finally at 2:41pm, handed off to 2110(1)...look at the geographic coverage areas of those three antennae sectors, as well as the geographic locations of those tower structures, on which the aforementioned directional antennae are mounted...
...3 INCOMING signals, initiated from 3 DIFFERENT tower locations, spaced many miles apart, over a time lapse of approx. 30 minutes...
...clearly, over this time lapse from 2:12pm (the first ping in 2192(3) sector) to 2:41pm, Teresa is mobile, she is driving, this is fact, not speculation...note, the 2:12pm is initiated OUTBOUND from device to tower...
... she drives through 2192(3) sector, passes through 2192(1) sector, drives into 2110(1) sector, and that's where her phone digitally disappears, forever...
...we KNOW that Teresa was yapping on her phone, in her car, at 2:32pm, and we KNOW where the 2110(1) sector is geographically located relative to ASY, it is 11 miles away... AND...wait for it...what else do we KNOW?
... we KNOW that Steven was stationary this ENTIRE time, in fact, Steven called Teresa, from his stationary position, at 2:24pm and again at 2:35 pm...LOOK what Teresa's phone is doing at those times ...Steven was standing at ASY, at 2:35pm, Teresa had departed a few minutes earlier...
...keep in mind the testimony of Bobby, regarding this time of day, he was right there, looking out the window, and it is the middle of the business day at ASY, who knows how many customers were around, and the other business down the road...
... from 2:35 to 2:41...6 minutes...to kidnap/kill, in broad daylight, in front of HOW MANY potential witnesses ?..hide/hogtie/silence a struggling adult, immediately race away from the "crime scene" with the cell phone...? all for naught, folks...
...there just is not enough time, Steven did not do it...
2. 2:41pm, 2110(1) sector, CFNA...
....and just for fun, how did Teresa's phone end up in Steven's burn barrel ?... I have just illustrated that it is, for all intents, chronologically impossible for Steven to have accomplished this "crime", yet look at the childishly "hidden" evidence all over Steven's property ?....
...KZ needs to get inside that Rav4...
[–]MnAtty
KZ's testing focused on a scenario where TH was behind her car when she was struck, probably on the head. It was the first time a legitimate investigation had analyzed the evidence, because the original prosecution's case had been such a sham.
Also then, the multiple sightings of the Rav4 pulled of the road in a certain location became much more relevant.
I'm guessing most people here have theorized in a relative vacuum long enough. At this point we probably understand as much as we're ever going to, so now the focus has shifted to KZ's case, as it makes its way through the courts. It's a waiting game, as she works to overcome what are essentially stalling tactics by the State of Wisconsin.
And it's particularly exciting right now, to see all the amicus briefs for Brendan, so his case has become the focus as well.
[–]idunno_why
The blood spatter on the cargo door is the only real evidence of her manner of death and it's often overlooked in the theories that come out.
She was either unloading/loading something in the cargo area when she was assaulted, or someone was forcing her into it which doesn't make sense because it would be easy to climb out a rear door.
[–]JJacks61
The entire Zip encounter is just odd. I can't call it anything else. Think back to the phone call to GZ and his responses. Then, when the cops went to their house, they talked through a window for what, 20 minutes before finally being let in.
JoEZ statement that was written by Dedering and made to fit Kratz timeline at trial. The answering machine message that has never been publicly heard and is missing. GZ nor JZ called to testify even though it was JZ car Teresa allegedly took a picture of.
All of this just seems like a distraction, as in saying, HEY look over here. DP's clearly untruthful testimony about the phone call. Again, I believe this was used to manipulate the jury to guide them away from any other narrative.
Other people in Teresa's circle are far more likely suspects. Less odd and far more suspicious. Kratz made a spectacle out of the Zips, and he did it on purpose.
[–]MMonroe54
I agree. If the Zipperer family had behaved differently, I think the phone call not appearing on the AT&T record, and/or the missing VM copy might seem unremarkable. But when you add their behavior that night, to George's hostility over the phone, to JoEllen's report of TH's visit -- which she didn't even write but signed -- and the phone call and recording.....it's just a lot of peculiarities.
I just go where the evidence takes me:
Zips scenario seems less likely because of the evidence that TH made it home in the afternoon. A couple of things point in that direction.
Her planner was written on during the day and ended up "at home" being TH & SB's place.
Her mother says is her call the last time she saw TH, was "at home" which based on other quotes likely means at KHs house. It says on THs planner that she will pick up stuff from Mom's. So, it is a possible indicator that KH did see TH at KHs house Monday after the photo shoot and lied about last time she saw her. Or...knew TH had picked up things Monday and didn't physically see her so KK got her to bend the truth about the last time her seeing her is Sunday.
RH says in the beginning he last saw TH in Cowgirl costume which doesn't make sense on Sunday. So, it is more likely she was getting ready to go to a Halloween party on Monday. Then RH later recants that she talked about the costume.
AW says she saw her last at Halloween party Oct 21st according to the paper. It is assumed to be a mistake and should say Oct 29th. But, TP says she was meeting friends for a party Oct 31st. Seems like AW can't keep her lie straight.
Mike H doesn't give a straight answer about TH going to a party after the wedding photography gig on Sat. He dances around saying "I believe" and such until it is repeated and he agrees.
However, none of these are concrete proof that she went home. But, they all support the theory that she did go home, met up with Ryan, and went to a party with or without him.
Zips are definitely sketchy. But, that could be any number of things. Maybe GZ was drunk, high, etc. when LE came and was afraid to answer the door. Maybe GZ was growing MJ in his basement. Maybe there was an alien in his house...to Kratz it a little bit. Who knows? But, things are leading away from that theory now. Maybe TH swung by the Zips after she went home and met her untimely death there.
Given that none of her friends called her on halloween, it leads me to believe she was with them.
Given the voicemail ids put the condolences call from a photographer on Nov 1st, it leads me to believe THs photographer friends know she is dead.
Given the AQ call asking for family photos, it leads met to believe it was an alibi or find the phone call since his wife and two sister-in-laws are photographers.
Given that MH didn't listen to all of THs messages leads me to believe he already knew what happened and was more interested in removing incriminating info for TH & MH set of friends.
The simplest explanation is she died in a negligent-homicide as reported originally. Friends either were with her when she died or found her dead. If with her, they would cooperate with any police investigation that points away from themselves. (Like JB pointing towards BC.) If they found her, LE could set it up to point to SA and get them on board.
I haven't eliminated the idea that she died in another way and LE set up the friends to either find or feel guilt to cooperate with LEs plan to frame Avery. There are many possibilities: simple accident, Zips did it, LE did it, RH did it, AQ did it, stranger did it. We have so little information about any of the other options it is difficult to eliminate or settle on any one.
I really can't buy into the special agent and she's still alive notion. But, I don't comment on everyone of those posts stating my position against it because I think every topic/idea has its place for logical discussion and debate. I wish all would have the same respect and not try to turn every OP into his/her platform to promote his/her favortie theory.
So, until the next discovery to turn our perspective, THs friends have some explaining to do....
'Making a Murderer': Inside 3 Best Conspiracy Theories
From faked deaths to extra bodies, internet sleuths have spent months coming up with far-fetched explanations – but could one of them be true?
By Amelia McDonell-Parry, Rolling Stone
September 2, 2016
Last Friday, Steven Avery's attorney Kathleen Zellner filed a motionseeking evidence for advanced scientific testing, the first big legal move she’s made since taking on her client and vowing to exonerate him of Teresa Halbach's murder. The filing makes bold declarations about what the various tests will prove, and reveals her theory on how Avery was framed by law enforcement. Zellner told reporters that she already has enough evidence to win Avery a new trial, but sending him back to square one isn't her goal. These advanced scientific tests, she claims, will lead to a full exoneration and reveal what really happened to Halbach on October 31st, 2005. With 17 exonerations under her belt, it’s hard not to take such statements from Zellner – who is working on Avery's case pro-bono – as a guarantee.
His nephew's conviction was overturned, but will that mean anything for the main subject of the hit Netflix show?
The results of the various tests – including radiocarbon tests on the drops of Avery's blood found in the RAV4 and fingerprint DNA tests – are expected in approximately three months. If Zellner gets her wish, there will be enough evidence for her to file a new petition for post-conviction relief in which she will finally reveal all that she has been hinting at on Twitter since taking on Avery's case in January.
In the meantime, those who have been following this case with rabid interest are left to stew over the possibilities online, in blog posts or video rants, and in the various Reddit subgroups dedicated to Making a Murderer. Since its Netflix debut last December, dedicated viewers have been parsing court documents, pouring over evidence and brainstorming different theories to an exhausting degree of specificity.
While a number of the claims made in Zellner's motion have been hotly debated online for the last eight months, now Zellner is contending that she actually has the evidence to prove them. Some believe that Zellner is going to blow the lid off what has been a much darker conspiracy all along. Grab your tin foil hats, here are three kinda bat- crackers – but not completely impossible – theories being proposed by Making a Murderer superfans.
Theory #1: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department (MCSD) officers killed Teresa Halbach in order to frame Steven Avery for the murder.
Motive: In 2005, Avery was suing MCSD, Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek, and former District Attorney Ken Vogel for a total of $36 million over his 1985 wrongful conviction for rape. Avery looked to be all but guaranteed to win a substantial settlement that threatened to bankrupt the sheriff's department and the county, not to mention ruin a few reputations. Avery reportedly had ample evidence that Kocourek and Vogel dissuaded any effort to pursue other suspects and ignored evidence of his innocence after he was convicted. They were both scheduled to give their depositions in mid-November 2005.
Argument: MCSD had Avery under surveillance, so they knew that Halbach, a pretty 25-year-old photographer for Auto Trader, made weekly trips to Manitowoc and had met with Avery at least four or five times. According to the Reddit theorists, on October 31st, after Halbach left the Avery Salvage Yard, she was lured somewhere remote and murdered – by Kocourek, Vogel, or someone they hired. A few other officers were roped in to plant the evidence on the Avery property. They also allege that Halbach's ex-boyfriend, Ryan Hillegas, was coerced into helping, either because they convinced him of Avery's guilt or they threatened to target him as their number one suspect.
Avery was arrested on November 9, Kocourek and Vogel's depositions were "postponed," and Avery ended up settling the lawsuit for a paltry $400,000 before they could be rescheduled.
Well Actually: Kocourek and Vogel might have had a compelling motive to frame Avery, but if they're willing to commit murder to accomplish their goal, wouldn't they just kill him?
Theory #2: Teresa Halbach is still alive and was an informant who worked with law enforcement to frame Steven Avery by faking her own murder.
Motive: Law enforcement still wanted to frame Avery for their own interests, but they wanted someone to help them, not someone to kill. So, they decided to recruit a pretty criminal justice major named Teresa Halbach by convincing her that Avery was a danger to society and she would be doing a service by faking her own murder.
Argument: According to one Redditor, Halbach played the role of femme fatale, who took a job at Auto Trader in order to establish a professional relationship with Avery, while also planting seeds that he had taken an inappropriate shine to her. Following that final, fateful appointment on October 31st, Halbach vanished into thin air – with a one-way ticket to Canada under a new name, obviously – and law enforcement spent the next week planting evidence. These theorists believe that select members of Halbach's family knew she was still alive, which would explain why Halbach's brother Mike, for example, spoke about her as if she was dead before the burnt bones were even found.
The bones in burn pit, burn barrel and down at the Radandt quarry were never conclusively identified as belonging to Halbach anyway. A small piece of tissue attached to a shin bone was sent to the FBI for mitochondrial DNA testing, and their report concluded that Halbach could not be excluded as the source; only seven out of the 16 DNA markers necessary for identification were present, which is why the FBI's results were so inconclusive. Nevertheless, investigators informed the media that the FBI had confirmed the bones belonged to Halbach, and no one from the FBI was called to testify about this evidence at Avery or Dassey's trial.
Well Actually: Being a criminal justice major in college does not explain why Halbach would participate in faking her own death to frame someone she does not know, let alone sit idly by as an innocent 16-year-old like Brendan Dassey takes the fall as well. Putting aside those ethical implications, Halbach would also be agreeing to fool friends and family members into believing she's dead and be okay with never seeing them again. There's also the practical fact that "disappearing" for good takes the kind of resources, money and brains that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department simply does not have.
Theory #3: The charred bones don't belong to Teresa Halbach.
Motive: Framing someone for murder really requires a body in order to convince loved ones and the media that the victim is dead, not to mention convince a jury to convict. According to this theory, Halbach's remains weren't an option – she's still alive as in Theory #2, or something about her corpse would have pointed at the real killer, or there was no time to burn the body – so another woman's cremains were planted at the Avery's instead.
Argument: Many believers in this theory have speculated that the bones might belong to another Manitowoc County woman – who looks disturbingly like Halbach – named Carmen Boutwell, who was found dead from an alleged meth overdose on the morning of November 3, 2005, the day Halbach was reported missing. There are some claims that Manitowoc County handled her cremation, which would have occurred during the same period when the charred cremains were found on Avery's property.
A YouTube vlogger went the extra mile by proclaiming to have proof – Halbach is a distant relative of Boutwell on her mother's side. That was enough for her to conclude that the two women would be a mitochondrial DNA match. This works, except she describes a genetic link between Halbach and Boutwell with at least one male blood relative in the mix, and mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother. So, even if the two women were distantly related, their mtDNA would not be a match. And if their mtDNA was a match? It still wouldn't conclusively ID either of them as the source of the cremains.
Well Actually: This theory is not impossible, it's just difficult to prove or fruitless to debate without more known variables. If all of the alleged commonalities between Halbach and Boutwell could be corroborated, it would certainly be extremely coincidental and strange – but it doesn't prove anything about the bones themselves. Good thing Zellner has asked for additional tests on the pelvis bone found at the quarry in order to "determine their origin."
HuNuWutWen at TickTockManitowoc
Last Friday, Steven Avery's attorney Kathleen Zellner filed a motionseeking evidence for advanced scientific testing, the first big legal move she’s made since taking on her client and vowing to exonerate him of Teresa Halbach's murder. The filing makes bold declarations about what the various tests will prove, and reveals her theory on how Avery was framed by law enforcement. Zellner told reporters that she already has enough evidence to win Avery a new trial, but sending him back to square one isn't her goal. These advanced scientific tests, she claims, will lead to a full exoneration and reveal what really happened to Halbach on October 31st, 2005. With 17 exonerations under her belt, it’s hard not to take such statements from Zellner – who is working on Avery's case pro-bono – as a guarantee.
His nephew's conviction was overturned, but will that mean anything for the main subject of the hit Netflix show?
The results of the various tests – including radiocarbon tests on the drops of Avery's blood found in the RAV4 and fingerprint DNA tests – are expected in approximately three months. If Zellner gets her wish, there will be enough evidence for her to file a new petition for post-conviction relief in which she will finally reveal all that she has been hinting at on Twitter since taking on Avery's case in January.
In the meantime, those who have been following this case with rabid interest are left to stew over the possibilities online, in blog posts or video rants, and in the various Reddit subgroups dedicated to Making a Murderer. Since its Netflix debut last December, dedicated viewers have been parsing court documents, pouring over evidence and brainstorming different theories to an exhausting degree of specificity.
While a number of the claims made in Zellner's motion have been hotly debated online for the last eight months, now Zellner is contending that she actually has the evidence to prove them. Some believe that Zellner is going to blow the lid off what has been a much darker conspiracy all along. Grab your tin foil hats, here are three kinda bat- crackers – but not completely impossible – theories being proposed by Making a Murderer superfans.
Theory #1: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department (MCSD) officers killed Teresa Halbach in order to frame Steven Avery for the murder.
Motive: In 2005, Avery was suing MCSD, Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek, and former District Attorney Ken Vogel for a total of $36 million over his 1985 wrongful conviction for rape. Avery looked to be all but guaranteed to win a substantial settlement that threatened to bankrupt the sheriff's department and the county, not to mention ruin a few reputations. Avery reportedly had ample evidence that Kocourek and Vogel dissuaded any effort to pursue other suspects and ignored evidence of his innocence after he was convicted. They were both scheduled to give their depositions in mid-November 2005.
Argument: MCSD had Avery under surveillance, so they knew that Halbach, a pretty 25-year-old photographer for Auto Trader, made weekly trips to Manitowoc and had met with Avery at least four or five times. According to the Reddit theorists, on October 31st, after Halbach left the Avery Salvage Yard, she was lured somewhere remote and murdered – by Kocourek, Vogel, or someone they hired. A few other officers were roped in to plant the evidence on the Avery property. They also allege that Halbach's ex-boyfriend, Ryan Hillegas, was coerced into helping, either because they convinced him of Avery's guilt or they threatened to target him as their number one suspect.
Avery was arrested on November 9, Kocourek and Vogel's depositions were "postponed," and Avery ended up settling the lawsuit for a paltry $400,000 before they could be rescheduled.
Well Actually: Kocourek and Vogel might have had a compelling motive to frame Avery, but if they're willing to commit murder to accomplish their goal, wouldn't they just kill him?
Theory #2: Teresa Halbach is still alive and was an informant who worked with law enforcement to frame Steven Avery by faking her own murder.
Motive: Law enforcement still wanted to frame Avery for their own interests, but they wanted someone to help them, not someone to kill. So, they decided to recruit a pretty criminal justice major named Teresa Halbach by convincing her that Avery was a danger to society and she would be doing a service by faking her own murder.
Argument: According to one Redditor, Halbach played the role of femme fatale, who took a job at Auto Trader in order to establish a professional relationship with Avery, while also planting seeds that he had taken an inappropriate shine to her. Following that final, fateful appointment on October 31st, Halbach vanished into thin air – with a one-way ticket to Canada under a new name, obviously – and law enforcement spent the next week planting evidence. These theorists believe that select members of Halbach's family knew she was still alive, which would explain why Halbach's brother Mike, for example, spoke about her as if she was dead before the burnt bones were even found.
The bones in burn pit, burn barrel and down at the Radandt quarry were never conclusively identified as belonging to Halbach anyway. A small piece of tissue attached to a shin bone was sent to the FBI for mitochondrial DNA testing, and their report concluded that Halbach could not be excluded as the source; only seven out of the 16 DNA markers necessary for identification were present, which is why the FBI's results were so inconclusive. Nevertheless, investigators informed the media that the FBI had confirmed the bones belonged to Halbach, and no one from the FBI was called to testify about this evidence at Avery or Dassey's trial.
Well Actually: Being a criminal justice major in college does not explain why Halbach would participate in faking her own death to frame someone she does not know, let alone sit idly by as an innocent 16-year-old like Brendan Dassey takes the fall as well. Putting aside those ethical implications, Halbach would also be agreeing to fool friends and family members into believing she's dead and be okay with never seeing them again. There's also the practical fact that "disappearing" for good takes the kind of resources, money and brains that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department simply does not have.
Theory #3: The charred bones don't belong to Teresa Halbach.
Motive: Framing someone for murder really requires a body in order to convince loved ones and the media that the victim is dead, not to mention convince a jury to convict. According to this theory, Halbach's remains weren't an option – she's still alive as in Theory #2, or something about her corpse would have pointed at the real killer, or there was no time to burn the body – so another woman's cremains were planted at the Avery's instead.
Argument: Many believers in this theory have speculated that the bones might belong to another Manitowoc County woman – who looks disturbingly like Halbach – named Carmen Boutwell, who was found dead from an alleged meth overdose on the morning of November 3, 2005, the day Halbach was reported missing. There are some claims that Manitowoc County handled her cremation, which would have occurred during the same period when the charred cremains were found on Avery's property.
A YouTube vlogger went the extra mile by proclaiming to have proof – Halbach is a distant relative of Boutwell on her mother's side. That was enough for her to conclude that the two women would be a mitochondrial DNA match. This works, except she describes a genetic link between Halbach and Boutwell with at least one male blood relative in the mix, and mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother. So, even if the two women were distantly related, their mtDNA would not be a match. And if their mtDNA was a match? It still wouldn't conclusively ID either of them as the source of the cremains.
Well Actually: This theory is not impossible, it's just difficult to prove or fruitless to debate without more known variables. If all of the alleged commonalities between Halbach and Boutwell could be corroborated, it would certainly be extremely coincidental and strange – but it doesn't prove anything about the bones themselves. Good thing Zellner has asked for additional tests on the pelvis bone found at the quarry in order to "determine their origin."
HuNuWutWen at TickTockManitowoc
My pet theory is that George Z. took the day off work, was
passed out in his favorite chair, sleeping off a liquid brunch...
... startled awake by a noise out the side of the house...he
did not know that Auto Trader was coming to shoot the trans am photo...
... grabs his rifle, goes out the back door, peeks around
the corner down the driveway...
... Teresa raises her camera to shoot a photo, George
mistakes Teresa for a trespasser with a weapon....BANG !...OH NO,.....
... George calls his old friend in LE, Gene
Kusche..."help me man, it was an accident, I thought she was stealing the
car..."..." neighbors never saw or heard anything..."
... "the pencil" takes control of the situation,
tells GZ to sit tight, do not talk to anyone except me...I'll get back to you
shortly with instructions...do not do anything, do not touch anything, just
wait for my call...
...Kusche sends Andy out to Z. house, Andy calls Kusche with
all the info from Teresa's purse, PDA, planner, receipt book... Kusche realizes
who this victim is...calls DV, or TK, the situation is discussed, plans are
made...but they are playing it by ear, that's obvious...no way was this GONG
SHOW a pre-planned LE hit...
...we all know the patchwork piece-meal nature of the
evidence planting, and the ridiculously disjointed narrative of the alleged
crime...
... and the recusal of MTSO to avoid the appearance of
conflict, yet ALL the major items of physical evidence were "found"
by MTSO officers, people who were not supposed to even be present at these
sites ...
...GZ will keep his mouth shut, otherwise he'll spend the
rest of his life in prison for what was an accident...LE do not have to worry
about GZ, he killed her..
...I know it's a very unlikely scenario, but the per capita
murder stats in rural Wisconsin are equally as rare...and the
"accidental" manner of death answers the question of motive...
...MTSO had motive to discredit Steven Avery, I don't
believe they planned this Keystone Kops travesty...
The Z. scenario, as unlikely as it admittedly appears ,
actually addresses several important conditions...for me, anyway...
... the outrageously "coincidental" appearance of
this alleged crime, relative to the pending depositions...
...I do not personally think that time was nearly as
"tight" as many believe, regarding the Avery lawsuit...look at who is
controlling this whole thing, still to this day...
...these same people controlled everything back then as
well...
... hypothetically, "IF" none of this ever
happened, if the depositions/lawsuit proceeded through the system, these people
would've dragged it out, to the point where nobody was even paying attention,
page 6, buried in the local news...the public have a short memory, and a
shorter attention span...look what they did with Steven's DNA results
?...Culhane held onto those for a year ?...these people don't give a shit...
...but, as far as the lawsuit was concerned, the politicians
had gotten their photo-ops, the Avery bill was in the bag, the court of public
opinion had already judged the idiots of MTSO, Penny had already hugged-it-out
with Steven...the damage to reputations was already done, and forgotten,
really...
...and the monetary award was not going to be 36 million,
more likely around 6-7 million...significant, but NOT enough to break Manitowoc
County...far from it...
...and Vogel and Kocourek were already retired, I believe...
...so, what's to say that DV and TK were not actively
planning "something else", or they had basically resigned themselves
to the outcome, and just wanted to get on with life...and then this accidental
event provided an alternative ?...
...this explains the "reverse engineering" of the
obvious evidence planting, coerced statements, "lost" evidence,
convoluted narrative, complete intentional fuck-up of the investigation...no
way was this a pre-planned LE hit...
... the LE connection of GK to GZ is a reasonable
possibility when compared to other theories...GZ was scared shitless that he'd
go to prison, so he will STFU no problems...and GK would've collected the gun
as insurance...
...I just cannot imagine that LE would expose themselves to
Ryan, or Scott, or Bobby...I cannot imagine that LE would leave their
collective fate to any of those three...especially Scott and Bobby though, they
are Steven's FAMILY...
...it is possible that Bobby killed Teresa, but why ?...he
had a g/f, a job, a life...makes no sense to me...what?...one minute he's going
deer hunting... all of a sudden he becomes the crazy rapey murder boy ?...and
then he calls Scott ?... why would he tell Scott ?...Scott was Mom's
"new" bf, not exactly an old buddy... but then what?... they bring
all the evidence home ?...hahahaha, no.
Mr_Precedent at TickTockManitowoc
I suspect TH made it home and was killed there (accidentally or intentionally or a drug overdose). I think RH, MH and SB were in a secret drug business with MW (CASO drug investigator) and they called him for help instead of 911 because an investigation at the house would get them all in trouble. When MW discovered that TH had seen SA (via her phone or paperwork), he called Lenk and they planned to solve both departments' problems and be heroes by framing SA.
I think the RAV (and TH's body, if it was a drug overdose) were moved to Zander Road and set on fire (MTSO had attempted to frame SA for a stolen car fire there a few months before). AC was sent to plant the Zander Road sign, the folded plates, and panties - and to find the RAV and call it in (causing it to be entered into evidence).
But they discovered the recorded jail calls with Jodi and the crime scene had to be moved to ASY. At this point, I think Kratz had gotten involved and made himself "The Boss," orchestrating the rest of the planting (like a trial checklist, with little thought to how it would be found).
It wouldn't surprise me if the RAV in ASY is a (not-quite) duplicate (a burned car couldn't be hidden there), and the blood in the back of it is not TH's. That's why it wasn't opened at ASY and was covered and moved in the dark. I think RH got scratched with branches while covering it up in the dark (while getting instructions from LEO via his phone and the flyover video). TH's keys had either been burned or wouldn't fit the duplicate RAV, so a replacement was made, attached to the fob she'd never used, and planted at SA's. Bullets found around the garage were rubbed with DNA and planted later, after the floor was dusty from jackhammering. The voicemails were switched (Zipperer audio was put onto Janda video) - Zipperer was the one with the incomplete address. No wonder the CD is "lost" now.
I doubt the bones planted in SA's burn pit were TH's and there was clearly no giant fire there, especially involving tires. I think the TH DNA is from the personal items collected at her home and brought to ASY. I think the SA DNA is swabbed from his sink, the extra/stolen "groin swabs" (sweat/touch), and dripped from a non-EDTA vial that Lenk stole from the MTSO evidence lock-up (a standard blood draw includes 10 tubes of different colors with different additives). The search of ASY, instigated by RH, "untrained LEO", was put off until the duplicate RAV was in place. PoG was set up to find it, but was confused because it was a different color than she was expecting - and the VIN had been tampered with.
I think Ken Kratz wrote the (loopy Ks) SiKiKey letter, ordered the planting of items in the Janda burn barrel, faked computer searches, and quarry bones, so to trick ST, BJ, the BD boys, and JR into changing their stories to include a big fire, by claiming that SA was guilty and trying to frame THEM. If they didn't comply, they'd be charged as accomplices. That's why BJ was so wishy-washy and ST was so ecstatic when SA was convicted. Brendan was too confused to cooperate, so they had to knead it out of him. They hoped SA would confess to save his young, disabled nephew.
At a minimum, I think these people were knowingly involved in the coverup: RH, MH, SB, MW, Lenk, AC, KK (and probably TF, SC & DR). ALL of them would benefit from SA being convicted (or from allowing themselves to be blackmailed). At least one of them has been talking to KZ.
NOBODY ever dreamed that this case would have a worldwide audience. The mere suggestion of filmmakers having access to the courtroom and family made Kratz apoplectic and desperate to get their footage seized and the project tied up in legal red tape - more than once. He's now desperate to sway public opinion and points often to the contents of the documentary series, NOT the transcripts and evidence.
I could definitely be wrong about some or all of this, but ALL of the evidence fits this or a similar scenario:
- How MW knew the BJ appointment was SA on 11/3 without having received that info from Cingular
- Why unemployed nursing graduate was making frequent deliveries to construction worker SB
- How MH knew to grieve for TH before her car was found
- Why RH and MH were acting so squirrelly about being on ASY
- Why RH was working so closely with LEO & deemed "untrained LEO" & allowed on crime scene (he was probably familiar to CASO as a drug informant)
- Why RH, MH and SB were not investigated
- Ryan's scratches (murder and/or planting car)
- Only 1 of 10 colored tubes in unsealed evidence box
- TOTALLY IGNORED AS CRUCIAL EVIDENCE: Zander Road sign, SiKiKey letter, computer searches, quarry bones, large amount of blood in back of RAV, missing parts, damage and VIN tampering to RAV - all used for blackmailing witnesses, not helpful against SA
- Kratz's email to Culhane that Wiegert was checking 1985 blood - "what it was" (likely the preservative)
- Zero tire residue, plus unburned leaves & grass around burn pit
- SHOCK AND HORROR (what could be more shocking than TH's closest friends and brother and corrupt LEO working to get two innocent men convicted of a crime by using HIS closest friends and family against him?)
I think TH died at home of a drug-related accident or crime (maybe she ODed or threatened to expose their crimes), and that they called MW directly instead of 911 for help because a reported drug-related death or murder would get them all in trouble.
According to the Cingular rep's testimony, he couldn't have numbers for calls. I think they broke into TH's account to TRY to get her information so they'd have an explanation for how MW knew on 11/3 that TH had talked to SA - but it wasn't there. RH's phone calls were inquiries as to WHY they couldn't print out the info they needed, and the fake list was made to hide the fact that it wasn't available. They had either TH, her phone, or her completed paperwork between 10/31 and 11/3. Wiegert's statement that a reverse search of BJ's number led to SA (when we KNOW it could not have) is the first provable LIE in the case. He lied because he was involved in the framing from the very beginning.
For the record, I think TH made it home and died there - either by accident or attack. I suspect RH, MH and SB were involved in a secret drug business with MW (CASO drug investigator), and they called him instead of 911 because a drug-related death would get them all in trouble. When he learned TH had visited SA (via her paperwork, phone or stories told by RH, MH & SB), he knew they could solve two problems at once. He called Lenk and they decided to frame SA. The original crime scene was supposed to be Zander Road (where there was an attempt by MTSO to frame SA several months prior), but when they learned about the recorded jail calls with Jodi, they had to move everything to ASY.
ALL of the evidence, lies, and strange behavior fit this scenario - or one very similar to it.
If MW was involved in a secret drug business involving seized or controlled substances, he would benefit by not having to explain how his cohorts were involved in a drug-related death. I'm sure being heralded as a hero who cracked the case within minutes of the phone call and put SA away doesn't hurt, either.
[–]MMonroe54
That's assuming a drug connection....and you may as well say the same about Remiker. He was the drug investigator for Manitowoc County. Except of course Remiker was not co-leader of the investigation.
[–]Mr_Precedent
Remiker was likely involved, too. He and Wiegert had a couple of very interesting phone calls about the Plan. And he commented that the source of the tightly controlled drugs that killed CB was untraceable.
Perhaps Remiker is one of the people who has spilled the beans to KZ.
It all could have started as clean-up for a secret operation that went awry. I do think Kratz took over the orchestration of the planting once the crime scene was moved. That’s why the “evidence” reads like a checklist of what would be needed at trial with so little thought put into HOW it was found or treated.
[–]dugdiggins
It would explain the missing screws for the RAV4 dashboard (a place to store drugs during transport). It would explain the possible Martinez connection to ASY and the comments about a baggie (CASO page 980). It would explain the statements made by Jodi's stepfather (CASO page 1052).
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-293-passenger-door-view.jpg
[–]lilypadbitch
DR who more or less blew off the CB overdose death on Nov 3rd saying that it was not traceable to how that happened to her? He basically said that type of case was usually hard to solve. What?
From Harold Times
Published 11:00 p.m. CT June 7, 2014
Drug Death a Painful Memory
Cases such as this are challenging to investigate; often those responsible are reluctant to come forward because they know the family or don’t want to put a stop to their flow of drugs, he said.
“It’s like finding a needle in a haystack,” Remiker said. “And then obtaining enough evidence to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard we’re held to.”
So he just says “It’s like finding a needle in a haystack,” Well now we know they have no intent on investigating because they don't want the truth to come out to where the problem lies. In their own back yard is where it will lead. MW (CASO drug investigator)
[–]Mr_Precedent
Exactly.
Kratz was getting his drugs somewhere, too. It sure would have been a bad thing if his supplier(s) had been busted.
[–]lilypadbitch
Biggest problem in Wisconsin is Drugs and Alcohol. Drunkest state and their drunkest city
2. Wisconsin: 24.5% statewide; 26.5% in Green Bay
June 11, 2017
With the Zellnami in full effect, we've all read that KZ is pretty much pushing RH forward as "the killer". We also know that KZ's main goals is to get SA the freedom he deserves, pretty much whatever the cost.
I think she has a fairly good idea of who the killer might be, but she's also smart: accusing LE of evidence planting would be really hard to prove, and will probably not help SA.
With that being said: I think it's more likely that we're technically looking at two different crimes: 1) The murder of TH by "the killer" 2) The framing of SA by LE (yes, it's not what KZ suggests, but I think this is what actually happened)
These two crimes (unfortunately) worked out in both "the killer"'s and LE's favour. "The killer" did his thing and got away with it. LE got "their guy" who was about to take all their money and reputation.
It is my opinion that "the killer" pretty much did what KZ outlines, but he didn't plant the evidence. It's far more likely that LE did this step (way more opportunity, and motive). "The killer" simply aided by handing them important things on a silver platter.
"The killer" only wanted to get away with his crime. The easiest way would be to make sure he wasn't seen or regarded as the killer and no clues led to him. So he made sure that the biggest piece of evidence (the RAV4) was to be found somewhere else.
Any place would be a good place, but a salvage yard is perfect. "The killer" made sure that's the place the car would be found.
With that done, he really needn't worry too much, especially considering who owned and ran the salvage yard.
Enter LE: suddenly SA is the prime suspect, they got the car, but they don't have much else to go on. Nothing really seems to indicate TH was killed there, but he must have done it, because they found the car!
It is my opinion the LE at this point chose to make it a "home run", by planting evidence to make sure SA would be found guilty. They just killed two birds with one stone: they "solved" the murder and they evaded the huge lawsuit.
Bottom line: I think there are two different crimes and unfortunately they blended perfectly into each other.
Do I think "the killer" planted the evidence: no. I think it's too far fetched, a simpler answer is obtained by asking "who had time and motive". "The killer" already diverted attention, that was (at the time) enough for now. Why risk getting caught planting evidence if they're already focussing on someone else?
I strongly believe it was LE who wanted to seal the deal, but KZ chooses not to go there, as it won't help SA and honestly: it might even help her case suggesting "the killer" planted the evidence, as LE has shown they only care about themselves.
[–]MMonroe54
My "sometimes" theory is close but slightly different. I think the RAV was wherever TH was killed and "the killer" left afoot or in his own car. It had to be in some out of the way place, though, not unlike, a turn out or an infrequently traveled road or the Mirabel Caves or perhaps the cul se sac where a parked car would not be suspicious because a path led through the woods which people apparently often used. If so, I think LE found the car and the rest followed BECAUSE they really believed SA did it and wanted to make sure-- especially in view of the 1985 case -- that he didn't walk. But this too involves two different crimes: a killing and a framing. This is just one scenario that I occasionally entertain -- assuming SA did not do it -- as a "possibility". Much like KZ's theory about RH.
[–]TheDutchCoder
I see what you're saying, but without the car on his property, LE really had no reason to think SA was involved at all.
It's not impossible of course, but I think the car on his property was the nudge that both the killer as well as LE needed for this to escalate.
[–]Mr_Precedent
This is why I think RH and MW had something going on that made it necessary to frame SA to protect BOTH of them. Probably drugs. I think the 22 calls between RH and LE on the night the RAV was planted show it was a coordinated effort.
[–]TheDutchCoder
I didn't know RH had so many calls with LE on that day, is that in one of the Affidavits? (I haven't read all of them yet)
[–]Mr_Precedent
It's in his phone records from her very first motion, where she called him "Individual B."
[–]TheDutchCoder
Thanks!
Mr_Precedent posted at Reddit on June 16, 2017
I think (just a hunch that may be wrong) that RH, MH and SB were involved in selling drugs confiscated by (Calumet drug investigator) Wiegert (possibly Kratz, too), and that TH died at home, in the presence of RH, MH and SB, of an overdose or injury that would have gotten them ALL in serious trouble if a coroner learned she died at home and did an autopsy. I think they called Wiegert for help and he got the idea to call Lenk, frame SA, solve 2 big problems, and win some big awards and brownie points. I think Wiegert is deeply involved in the framing, and probably is the orchestrator of it until Sweaty Ken Kratz took over.
Kathleen Zellner is better off not pointing fingers at specific LE until she can provide all 3 elements necessary to overcome the Denny rule. She's GOT them ALL on Ryan Hillegas and only needs ONE alternate suspect (the most painfully obvious one) to show that CASO was negligent in its investigation. NOW, RH has incentive to spill the beans on EVERYONE ELSE who participated in the planting.ZellnerWinsAgain posted at Reddit on January 24, 2017
KZ's got the Court/County/State TRAPPED. If they deny exoneration AND a re-trial, she goes to the media and/or higher up (which is what they tried for years to avoid). If they choose re-trial instead of exoneration, KZ gets access to EVERYTHING they don't want her to have AND she will blow the lid off of Wisconsin. If they choose exoneration and then decide to NOT pursue other suspects, they've got the public and the media AND KZ's relentlessness to contend with. She/SA can't lose.
Anybody who doesn't think her strategy is EFFING BRILLIANT doesn't truly understand it.
It would be a conflict of interest for KZ to help RH, especially if she thinks he is involved in Teresa Halbach's death or the framing of Steven Aavery - and I think she definitely does. She gave him the perfect opportunity to spill the beans when she referred to him as "Individual B" in her previous motion. As far as we know, he did not bite.
KZ can only do what is in the best interest of her client. RH will need to get his own lawyer if he is charged.
If he is REALLY stupid, RH (and Sweaty Ken Kratz) can try to sue KZ for libel. Then she can divulge EVERYTHING she knows and mop the highway with him. That would be too delicious for words!
She has them ALL between a rock and a hard place. So clever!
Most people watching the crappy tabloid shows and appearances that Sweaty Ken Kratz does don't read much besides the menu at IHOP, so they're surely not going to read the transcripts of the trial and accompanying evidence, motions, etc. SKK is counting on the ignorance and laziness of those who only watch TV to help spread his lies.
She wasn't given access to ALL of the evidence for her own testing, therefore she COULDN'T provide some stuff she would have LIKED to include.
I think Wiegert is deeply involved in the framing and probably is the orchestrator of it until Sweaty Ken Kratz took over.
They didn't get the info it was Steven Avery from AT that night [Angela Schuster told then it was Barb Janda on Avery Road, giving LE her phone number not SA's]. So WHY did they zero in on him immediately? Because Wiegert was part of the setup.
They had established that TH went to ASY on 10/31, and after Andy Colborn reported back (he went to the Avery property around 6:30 on November 3rd and Steven told him that Teresa had been there on Monday between 2 and 2:30 p.m.), they knew SA was her contact there. MCSO would be well aware of him and his history, and certainly the highest authorities there might be eager to think he was responsible for this missing young woman. Talk about means, motive, and opportunity! Seriously, though, it's not a great reach to imagine why or how they focused on him, and that seems to have occurred even before the RAV4 was found, even though they said later, as I believe Remiker did, that he thought they were "barking up the wrong tree."
Interesting point of view. You believe that the only logical conclusion is that LE killed her. Certainly they had the most motive and the most to lose with the lawsuit so that is not unreasonable thinking. One of the things that keeps me from believing that is AC calling in the RAV4 plates on a personal cell phone on Nov. 3rd & lying about it. It was documented in the police records that they took possession of the RAV on November 3rd as Zellner stated. On AC's call to dispatch he sounds unsure about who's vehicle it is. Now that could have been a setup, but I don't believe that it was. He lied about it in court. Why lie if he found the vehicle somewhere other than ASY? As crazy as it might seem, this thing did fall into his lap. He notified JL, KP, & TK who were ALL on the chopping block in the civil suit. They hatched a plan to frame SA.LizardFoot83 posted at Reddit:
I believe MCSD was monitoring SA & it's possible they had JS in their sights to take out & frame SA but it fell through & the TH situation presented another opportunity.
The perfect situation for the MCSD opened up. RH was the guy who was calling her, stalking her & stopping by frequently. He had means, opportunity & motive. RH & TH last phone communication was a 13 minute call on 10/25. A long call for RH by comparison to his average call times. They talked every day or every other day for quite some time until the 25th.
TP said someone kept calling her at all hours. He tried to intervene but she said no & that SHE KNEW HIM (meaning the guy who was harassing her). RH & TH don't speak at all for 1 week until he attempts to call her on 11/1. It's a call to cover himself.
There was an altercation that occured between RH & TH most likely on 10/31. It very well could have been an accident even. RH has scratches all over his hands that look to be from nails. He kills her. AC finds the RAV somewhere. I'd like to know where his cell pings when he calls in the RAV on 11/3. I'd also like to know where RH cell and TH cells ping on 10/31-11-4.
AC contacts JL, KP, & TK when he finds the RAV & RH is identified by them as the killer. They tell him they will keep him from going to prision for murder if he helps them plant evidence at ASY along with his buddy SB. Not sure exactly how JR fits into this BTW.
RH & SB log in & out of ASY four different times when crucial evidence is found. They are civilians along with JR on the crime scene. RH signs into a log with a fake name. He states he was never on the crime scene. MCSD calls RH as "No Caller ID" 22 times on 11/4. Collusion to make sure their plans were aligned.
RH, SB & JR have no alibis that I have seen for 10/31. 11/1, 11/2, & 11/3. Need to know those. Need ALL of the cell records for those guys as well as the COMPLETE non-edited phone records of TH.
The mannerisms from key players (AC, RH, MH) are highly suspicious and signals from KK to them in the courtroom are obvious. KK uses his hands to his face & ear on a few occassions. In an unnatural movement he also rubs his fingers vigorously back & forth at the 30:20 mark of Episode 5 (The last person to see TH alive) when MH is talking about the voicemails. It's pretty obvious KK is coaching him with signals to say what he needs him to say.
The voicemails are the key & I believe key phone records were excluded to tweaked to fit KK's narrative & avoid incriminating RH. There is no way SA thought far enough ahead to delete multiple voicemails to buy time. It makes no logical sense.
RH is a smart guy & he could pull it off--especially when he could control the situation along with the help of the MCSD.
Go prove it KZ!!!
I've always suspected that possibly Ryan Hillegas and Scott Bloedorn (and maybe Mike Halbach) found the vehicle in/near the quarry on the evening of November 3rd while they were riding the backroads in the area they knew she had last been [based on getting her call logs from her online Cingular account and perhaps actually speaking to AutoTrader and determining her schedule]. Then they call law enforcement (maybe buddy "Jerry Pagel's" personal number), and Andy Colborn shows up and makes the license plate call to confirm the vehicle because he's not going to just trust the civilians claiming they found THE vehicle.Answer one simple question and solve this entire case. (self.TickTockManitowoc)
Then AC contacts James Lenk who decides they need to get the vehicle onto Avery Salvage Yard to connect it more substantially to Steven Avery. Who better to rope into assisting them in moving it than the civilians that found it? They already know it's there. If the civilians get caught moving it to the salvage yard, LE can hopefully keep their hands clean of any involvement.
Joshua Radandt could be connected to moving it in this scenario, as well, if it was found in/near the quarry. We know from news clippings that he played high school basketball against/with RH and SB. They call him, or he shows up at the quarry coincidentally or because he's checking out a call from a concerned neighbor about unusual activity. They ask if there is access to the salvage yard from the quarry and what the best way to move it would be. [Editor's Note: Joshua Radandt's friend posted at Reddit that they were at the deer camp from November 4-6th; the RAV4 was moved to ASY on the evening of the 4th, according to Zellner, and it was found the morning of 5th.]
I also believe it's very likely that the burnt remains were also found with the vehicle in/near the quarry and that's why JR gave the false statement about seeing a fire in SA's back yard. At that point, they may not have decided yet to move the remains, and with the vehicle on Avery property they could make a case for SA burning the body in the nearby quarry to avoid detection. Maybe they were only going to put the burnt personal items in the burn barrel.
Then they come up empty-handed after days of searching SA's property - no apparent crime scene, no blood, no evidence of assault, no direct connection of a crime to SA. They need something more substantial to make an airtight case against SA, so they call the guys working at the quarry and tell them to stop sifting the burnt material there and bring the sifting equipment over to SA's back yard (along with those bone fragments you found in the quarry). The plastic five gallon buckets that were collected as evidence were most likely used to transport the material from the quarry to the trailer fire pit.
"Did LE go to the trouble to find a cadaver or dig up a grave to frame SA?"
They were involved in the suspicious death of a young woman (Carmen Boutwell) the day TH was reported missing - they didn't have far to search IF they needed cremains to make a case.
"If dead, why not just use the body?"
It's possible they only found the vehicle and no body. Also, if LE were involved in her death (which I don't personally believe), it would be wise for them to cremate/incinerate the body to avoid any accidental discovery of forensic material pointing to themselves (or away from SA).
I'm more inclined to believe they found the burned remains (and vehicle) NEAR the ASY, convinced themselves immediately that SA was the culprit, and decided to move the evidence onto the Avery property so they could insure a rock solid case.
I think Joshua Radandt's false statement about the fire was set up with LE because they had already decided they needed to move the cremains to his property. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was JR who found the cremains and vehicle in the quarry area on November 3rd and called AC in (license plate call).
I'm still trying to figure out the JR connection. There are only two reasons for his involvement that make sense to me:
1) the vehicle and burned remains/materials were found in/near the quarry, by him or someone else and, being a business owner who is friendly with local LE, he helps them move the evidence and gives his false fire statement to support the planted evidence.
OR....
2) he committed, or was involved in, the crime itself and pointed LE in SA's direction to keep them from looking too closely at himself (he could have crossed paths with Teresa Halbach on the road if she went to George Zipperer's after leaving ASY because he lived nearby).
I also wouldn't be surprised if JR was involved in the crime itself and decided to point the finger at SA to avoid anyone looking too closely at himself.
by Lurker928
January 11, 2017
That simple question is, why isn't any of TH's blood in either SA's bedroom or garage. If anyone can answer that, then I believe they would know what actually happened.On the evening of November 4th, an anonymous tip came into WBAY-TV in Green Bay that Avery was the last person to see her alive, the news media picked it up from that station, and it was repeated verbatim. "Green Bay television stations reported Friday night (November 4th) that the appointment was to photograph a van being sold by Steven Avery."
I'll start by saying TH's blood should be in either SA's bedroom or garage. That is a fact regardless of what you think happened or who you think did it. I don't think there's room for even a little debate about that.
I know very few people here believe SA is responsible for TH's death. Regardless, allow yourself to believe for a second it was possible. The state's narrative focused on this occurring in SA's bedroom or garage, or both. Ask yourself why. If there wasn't proof that he never left the property, they would not have confined themselves to this narrative without blood evidence. They would have certainly left open the possibility that it happened elsewhere. They also couldn't say it happened out in the open on the property because there were too many people there. So the choices for the murder site are the bedroom or the garage. If you accept that, then TH's blood has to be in one of the two places. There is no way anyone, especially not SA, could have cleaned up either or both locations to the point where not a single drop of blood could be found. So if SA is responsible, then it had to happen in the garage or the bedroom, and there should be at least some of TH's blood in one or both places. It's not there.
So now take the alternative route. SA was not responsible for TH's death. If you accept that premise, then you also have to accept that someone or some people went to a lot of trouble to plant things and frame SA. They would have had to plant the RAV4, the bullet, the keys and SA's blood in the RAV4 at a minimum. All of those items at least come with some doubt. If, however, a couple of drops of TH's blood are found in the bedroom or the garage, it's game over. Very few people, if anyone at all, would be questioning any of this. It's not there. But, again, it should be. If someone is going to go to all of the trouble to plant all of the other stuff, then they know TH is dead and probably know where she was killed and who was responsible. Those are things someone would need to know before framing someone else for murder. It's way to risky to frame someone and then have someone discover the crime scene or the body elsewhere. The killers obviously would have had access to TH's blood. So there should be some in SA's garage or bedroom, even if he had nothing to do with it.
So it really comes down to this. What circumstances could exist where the planters/framers could know the cause of death and who was responsible, yet not be able to plant the victim's blood?
A possibility could be that the killer is not the same as the planter/framer. That would mean, however, that LE is almost certainly the planter/framer, they would have to know what really happened, and they would have to have a very good reason for protecting the actual killer. Maybe framing SA is enough of a reason, or they hired someone to do the killing. I don't know.
Another possibility is that the body was discovered too long after death to have viable planting blood available. i don't know all of the science behind what happens to blood after death, but i would imagine at some point too much clotting and discoloration would occur for the blood to be viable for planting.
I'm interested to hear any other possibilities that anyone can come up with. One way or another, there should be some of TH's blood in the garage or bedroom and there's not. If we find out why it's not there, we likely find out what happened.
[–]PetrichorGirl 11 points 14 hours ago
Here's a possibility: TH's body was burned before LE had a chance to extract blood. Some explanations for this could be:
LE acted in a panic, and hadn't fully thought it all through before they burned her.
The killer was someone besides LE, and they burned her body before LE became aware of her death and the opportunity to frame SA arose.
[–]TheRiddler1976 3 points 8 hours ago
Yep, exactly this. Probably the second option out of them
[–]thetalentedoppressor 11 points 16 hours ago
Recall that KK has completely backtracked from the original assertions he alleged both in the infamous press conference and at trial. In terms of SA's bedroom.... KK now says the documentary was biased because all that happened in SA's bedroom was BD "scratched her throat with the back edge of the knife". I'm not kidding.... but be warned if you haven't watched this interview or others with KK and were not aware of KK disgusting backtracking... it will make you very very angry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M27-4IptQZ4
[–]thetalentedoppressor 7 points 15 hours ago
Understandable... but its significant that it went from cut her throat and she didnt die... to now it is he simply scratched her throat and KK never expected to find any blood in his bedroom. Its a complete switch from the press conference that solidified a guilty verdict in the eyes on Manitowoc and WI in general at the time.
[–]JacksnakeJames 3 points 4 hours ago
I know people were saying the press conference was unethical, and it was, but also saying it was not criminal. My thought is that it would certainly be illegal if KK knew the narrative he chose to report, to taint the jury pool, was false. Perjury, conspiracy against SA's rights, and false imprisonment come to mind. KK is a giant douchebag, but he's not stupid. I can't imagine that he didn't know he was lying about what happened to TH, and where. He had to have known the evidence didn't support those theories, so I believe it was criminal, but I don't think it can be proven, yet. He did say that thing about stuff regarding the case that only he knows. WTF might that be? Narcissists often shoot themselves in the foot due to their hubris. I want to read his book, but I'm never going to buy it. I'll probably rely on this forum's members to point out the juicy stuff!
[–]stubbledchin 4 points 8 hours ago
Where does he get this "scratched her throat" story? There is no evidence of it, and no remains to even demonstrate a scratch exists. No knife recovered to scratch with. I can only presume he is pulling things out of thin air. A lot of what he says seems to have a fetishistic air to it. Everything is sweaty and involves sex games. Says something about the man himself.
[–]JacksnakeJames 3 points 4 hours ago
He is a known drug addict and sexual predator of domestic abuse victims!
[–]radarthreat 3 points 2 hours ago
It wasn't even part of BD's "confession," as far as I know. So where's he coming up with this stuff? His own syphillitic mind.
[–]JJacks61 3 points 15 hours ago
I think he and fallon have changed theories several times since Kratz had his first fantasy press conference in March 06.
[–]LikesToSmile 9 points 9 hours ago
I was even more interested in the blood that was in the trailer.
To follow the prosecutor's theory, SA murders TH and then proceeds to perform the world's best clean up job. Every single drop of TH blood is gone, amazing really.
After all that hard work, he sees the blood on the bathroom floor and thinks meh that's definitely mine, I'll just leave it.
[–]LikesToSmile 3 points 8 hours ago
SA's blood was in the trailer. KK stated that he spent hours cleaning and bleaching all the blood. If that were even remotely true, why would he leave his own blood lying around.
[–]bennybaku [score hidden] an hour ago
I definitely believe the Rav4 is the murder scene. The question is where? IT would definitely be risky for SA to kill her in his driveway.
[-]magiclougie
Bobby is the key to the state's narrative that Teresa approached Steven's trailer and must have gone inside or was forced inside. In his statement he says he was watching her through the window taking pictures of the van, which was parked by the far entrance to his circular driveway. He then says he saw her finish and walk toward Steven's trailer, but from his vantage point he wouldn't have been able to see her walk very far. He turns away from the window to get his bow and jacket to go hunting as Steven is approaching her (she would be on the other side of the van), per his statement. Teresa walked forward a little ways to meet Steven as her approached to pay her $40 cash for the ad. Bobby says 3-4 minutes passed before he get his bow and jacket and goes outside to his truck, which is parked on the other end of his home and circular driveway, near his garage. This would be the 3-4 minutes that Steven was with Teresa. During the 3-4 minutes that Bobby is getting his bow and jacket, Steven is at Teresa's RAV4, as she sits inside it and reaches over to get an AutoTrader magazine (he tells her he doesn't need a receipt), which she hands to Steven. Teresa shuts her door and Steven walks back inside his trailer to put the magazine on his desk. Bobby exits his home and goes to truck. He sees Teresa's RAV4 but not her becuase he's too far away to know whether or not she is in her vehicle. He does not see Steven. Steven comes back outside five minutes later. He sees that Bobby's truck is gone and that Teresa is at the end of Avery Road, signaling to turn left onto HWY 147.
[–]keystone66 14 points 16 hours ago
For the record, I don't believe that we have credible information to confirm that Avery's blood was in the car. We have a state crime lab that lacks credibility, with tests performed by a biased technician who admitted to contaminating her samples while "training" people. All this after the state argued against the defense observing her work because restricting access to the lab was necessary to... avoid contamination.
None of the blood evidence is credible, and that's all before you consider that the state had poorly controlled samples of Avery's blood on hand and accessible to the agency Avery was suing for tens of millions of dollars.
Zero credibility.
[–]LizardFoot83 9 points 14 hours ago
IIRC, SC was also reprimanded during a lab review around that time for keeping dna samples/materials in the cabinet of her desk, rather than the secure dna area of the lab.
[–]bennybaku 3 points an hour ago
AND what does she do? She contaminates the bullet with her own DNA. She was a perfect fit for this investigation.
[–]FakedBlood 7 points 16 hours ago
I was wondering if the killer left her car with the blood in it and the body was taken somewhere else and maybe destroyed. This would mean there was no DNA of hers except what was in the car. Then LE found the car the day she was reported missing and moved it from the original location. There were plenty of news casts the first few days about her last known location being at SA's. The killer thought this was a great opportunity to deflect the blame. They went back to the car but it was gone so they planted the bones and phone. I can't think of anyone other than LE would have access to SA's DNA to plant it in the car and have access to the trailer to plant the key.
[–]Messwiththebull 4 points 11 hours ago
Too risky. If they didn't have the body she could've been alive still and turned up, or a body turn up later after planting bones and forging lab results.
[–]magilla39 7 points 15 hours ago
You have presented a false dichotomy. There are many other things that could have happened.
For one, SA could have driven TH somewhere else in her RAV4 after striking her with a blunt object. KK didn't like this theory, because he would have had to admit that evidence was planted, which would undermine his entire case. As a consequence, he needed a theory that didn't include planting, and presented a totally unbelievable narrative.
Also, LE did not have access to TH's blood to plant it in SA's home, and the perpetrator did not have access to SA's home when he or she had access to her blood. This explains why her blood is not planted in the trailer or garage. LE did have access to TH's DNA from her personal effects and her pap smear slides, but not blood, and somehow her DNA was found on a bullet fragment in SA's garage without the presence of visible blood.
[–]Lurker928[S] 6 points 13 hours ago
Not so sure SA could have left the property. How would that fit in the timeline? That would then present a whole new set of questions, starting with why he would bring every piece of evidence to his own back yard if it was already off the property.
I also don't think the phone pings would have been such a problem for the prosecution if they could have fit SA leaving the property into the timeline.
The second part of what you are saying is kind of what I was getting at. The people that had access to SA's garage and bedroom could not have had access to TH's blood or her blood would be in those places.
So does that rule out LE as the killer? If so, then we're back to someone else did this and these are the luckiest LEOs on Earth. LE hired someone else to do it (someone who managed to keep a bunch of her personal belongings to plant but couldn't be bothered to keep some blood) or there was something about her blood that they didn't want the defense to find if they had a chance to independently test it.
[–]magilla39 4 points 8 hours ago*
What is the evidence that establishes your timeline that excludes SA from leaving the property to hide the RAV4 with TH in it until the wee hours? He had plenty of opportunity and means to do that.
The prosecution's timeline was designed to make her phone go dead on SA's property. They didn't address the cell tower numbers associated with the calls at all. We will see where this leads when KZ presents the new evidence from the cell tower investigation.
The original perpetrator(s) had access to TH's blood up until the time he or she or they cremated her remains. The LE people with a motive were the MTSO and MT County DA personnel. They had the strong motive and should be strong suspects for arranging or performing the bad acts to TH. They also are strong suspects for moving the RAV4, planting the blood in it, and planting the key.
But there certainly are other suspects and evidence suggesting LE was simply lucky. This case has no shortage of suspects that were inadequately investigated.
But please remember, the need to plant evidence in SA's home didn't arise until F&W and KK brought BrenD's ridiculous confession into their theory of the case. This is four full months later, and this is when the magic bullet with no visible blood and with TH's DNA is found under an air compressor. This very well could be F&W's doing; they we're vested in the interrogation of BrenD.
Jumping to conclusions and forming false dichotomies to deduce things will not help solve this crime. You first need to identify what the reliable evidence is, and then see where it leads. That's why KZ law has a much better chance then we do. They have access to the full discovery package, and they performed their own independent investigation that may include quite a bit of new evidence.
Between what was planted and what was contaminated at each of the suspected crime scenes, there is almost nothing that can be ruled out. The trial may be over, but the investigation has just begun.
[–]Lurker928[S] 2 points 5 hours ago
Still disagree with you on this, but I suppose we'll have to leave it at that. Forget the bedroom and the garage. A drop of blood anywhere at ASY would have ended discussion on the case. It's not there.
There's a reason the prosecution kept a narrative of SA staying on the property. There had to be proof of that, or they would not have stuck with it. And remember, Brendan's "confession", what you call the need for there to be blood in the garage or bedroom, was the prosecution's narrative. They invented it. Why do that with no evidence? They absolutely knew prior there was zero evidence in either the garage or the bedroom before they fed him that story. I believe they did that because there was some sort of definitive proof he never left and they needed to discredit the one witness he had while he was home. KZ already has proof he never left. I believe the prosecution had the same proof.
Anyway, I'm just pointing out that they didn't bother planting the best evidence. That leads me to believe they didn't have access to it. Which leads me to believe they didn't kill her. And since I don't believe in miracles (at least not when people who can make their own miracles are involved), I also don't believe this just fell into their laps. I'm left with they hired someone. And yes, the hired hand likely destroyed the body prior to LE having access to it to plant cremains.
[–]magilla39 1 point 5 hours ago
That's a reasonable working theory, now find some evidence to prove it. It's not much different from one put forth by u/foghaze.
[–]TheRiddler1976 4 points 4 hours ago
My personal 'theory' is that the killer and the planter are different.
I don't think the police killed TH, but I think they found her body or something and decided to frame SA - maybe they even thought he did it and tried to provide enough evidence to seal their case
[–]alexthingy 3 points 3 hours ago
I don't think the police killed her either, if they did they'd have done a better job at planting evidence. They would've kept some of her blood to plant in the trailer or garage or even in the area, but none of it was there. Someone else killed her, and LE made sure that SA was the one who appeared as the killer, they saw an opportunity.
I just don't see why Manitowoc would do this to SA when there is reasonable doubt to suggest that he's innocent, and especially after they got it wrong last time. That's a huge risk to put away an innocent man a second time.
[–]S_Hollmes 4 points 15 hours ago
Yes - these mirror my thoughts! It could be that someone from LE killed TH and left the framing to the pawns (wanting to distance himself from the investigation).
Also, with the Janda's living next door to SA, I doubt they would've been able to move TH body from his trailer to garage into RAV, out of RAV into burn pit without going unnoticed. At least there would've been a great risk of discovery.
[–]JJacks61 3 points 15 hours ago
PB, the investigator for the defense said it clearly. There would have been a massive amount of blood wherever this happened. No way it happened in the trailer or garage. There would have been blood everywhere.
I think it's important to understand how much manipulation that Kratz press conference had on the public, AND how often this was on local TV. Even after the trial, LOCAL news waited for the verdict, and broke in regular programming to report it.
I believe the intent was to slander SA from the very beginning and Kratz used that to great advantage. He could have said SA and BD (insert graphic Kratz fantasy) carried this out in downtown Manitowoc and some people would have bought it.
[–]Messwiththebull 3 points 11 hours ago
They burned her to destroy and evidence of them being the real killer and didn't think they would need her blood. Just plant the Rav, bones, and a key. Spread his dna around and presto, conviction.
[–]TheRiddler1976 3 points 9 hours ago
and guess what.....it worked
[–]Mr_Slippery1 3 points 4 hours ago
Absolutely great question, we have asked these same questions in the past and the logical answers are what has kept me with the belief SA did not kill TH.
These same answers tell us that LE also did not kill TH, if you think they did and the intention was to frame SA in the process they would have had her blood and they would have planted it at minimum in the garage on the bullet, etc. So I cannot see that being a possibility either.
So what we are left with is the most likely scenario, someone killed TH, she was struck/hit/shot near the back of her RAV4 based on the blood spatter on the swing gate, she was likely then wrapped up and put in the RAV4 based on the blood/hair marks in the back of the RAV4. She was then cut up (in the reports u/chromeomykiss posted) and burned.
I presume LE found her vehicle and a burn area, and from there I am not 100% sure what happened.
[-]magiclougie
That someone could have been a hitman, who possibly raped Teresa before killing her, so her body had to be destroyed to destroy all forensic evidence.
[–]bennybaku [score hidden] an hour ago
I am more inclined to believe someone else killed her, but who is it? What would be their MO? Paying attention to the bones does, anyway for me gives us a clue. NOT who it is but a possible motivation. The fact her bones were in the Janda burn barrels and Steve's pit might reveal, they, the killer/s wanted the suspicion on SA and his family. The question then is why? Could it be someone with a hatred towards the Avery's? They were jealous of SA coming into cash perhaps? Were they hoping this would ruin the Avery Salvage Yard's business?
"I remember being there [the NBC26 newsroom] with the fax came in," Aaron Keller recalled of Halbach's disappearance. "I remember holding it in my hand, looking at it and discussing it … The next major element in the story was actually broken by a competitor and, to this day, I'm not quite sure where the information came from. The next element of [the story] was that Steven Avery was the last person to have seen her, and that story was broken by WBAY-TV in Green Bay. And I remember we immediately called and confirmed it and had it on the air within a couple of minutes of when they had it on the air, but I want to know how they got that." Keller claimed that the station that obtained the info, WBAY-TV, had close ties to authorities. "It paints a picture, potentially, of the media environment in Green Bay at the time. Channel 2 in Green Bay was the legacy station that had primarily been number one through most of its existence, and to this day, they are pretty tight with the law-enforcement community," he shared. "We [employees of the NBC affiliate] were mostly outsiders. They were insiders. We were more apt to ask really tough questions because we weren't friends with people from elementary school who worked other jobs in that area. So there were some elements of stories that the NBC station was not able to break because we didn't have entrenched friendships." Source: November 4, 2005, 6 PM News StoryCorporate media had a major roll in this wrongful conviction. If you're not on the jury, all the info you're getting is whatever the news media and corrupt prosecutor is feeding the general public, who at the time didn't have the benefit of hindsight and the plethora of case records, documents, and time that we all have now. All too often the media certainly encourages a certain rush to judgment.
The following is part of Ryan Hillegas' testimony under direct examination by Ken Kratz.
Q. Well, Friday night [November 4, 2005] you said that you were making some maps; how was that done?The following is part of Ryan Hillegas' testimony under direct examination by Ken Kratz.
A. Satellite imagery off the internet mostly, otherwise just Map Quest.
Q. Maps of what?
A. Maps of, you know, the areas we wanted to search. We kind of blew up smaller portions so you could see the roads better and county highways out in the Manitowoc area near the Averys, any kind of county highway. Basically, we tried to cover anything from Hilbert to Green Bay, all the way to the lake. Pretty much covering as much land as we could.
Q. Well, this was a citizen search effort; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, family members and friends and very -- very much so just a citizen effort coordinated by you; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you something, Mr. Hillegas, why would you center or why would you direct some of your search efforts around the Avery property?
A. Well, mostly for the fact that, you know, the media had covered so much of it. You know, all you heard about was around the Avery property. And I believe at that point we had known that, you know, her last kind of whereabouts were in that neck of the woods.
Q. So even as an untrained law enforcement officer, you knew to look for the last place she was seen alive; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. It didn't strike you as being unfair to Mr. Steven Avery, did it?
A. No.
Q. And you were asked about why you directed any efforts towards the Avery area, on direct, by Mr. Kratz; do you recall that?
A. Yes
Q. And I believe you said it was because the media had the information and the media was already seeming to focus on Mr. Avery; is that right?
A. I don't think it was Avery himself. I believe that it was just that we knew her last whereabouts were out in Manitowoc County.
Q. Okay. And had you seen any interviews with Mr. Avery at that point, or any news people coming down and talking to people on the Avery property?
A. I don't know if I had seen any interviews. I guess I was out putting posters up most of the day.
Q. But you did know that by that time the word was out in the media that the last known place, at least that they thought the last known place had been at the Averys, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And so that would have been true for anybody's knowledge, not just yours, anybody watching the media?
A. Yes.
My Roadblock with LE as Murderers Theory
submitted by pinkynarfs at TickTockManitowoc
Although I understand the tendency to think LE killed TH, I keep hitting a wall with a couple aspects of the theory. Obviously the mannies (my new nickname for MTSO, apologies to male nannies whom I have the utmost respect for) are idiots, but I still find it hard to believe they could be such boners that they would:
1) cut up and burn TH to the point of cremains, thus potentially eliminating a DNA match. LE more than anyone would know that DNA match would be crucial to ensure a conviction. Why go through the hours of burning? This seems like hiding evidence, not preparing evidence for planting.
2) dispose of her purse, wallet, and original keys. These are the strongest pieces of physical evidence they could plant, because she would certainly have had them the day she died.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
I don't think LE killed her. I don't think they ever saw her body.
But there is more circumstantial evidence they planted all incriminating evidence. Every single thing had question marks.
Blood in Rav4...lo and behold. MCSD has his blood
Her key with his DNA. Not her car keys mind you. Just the spare key. His DNA? lo and behold. MCSD has his DNA
The bullet with her DNA? Lo and behold. They had her vibrator, 7 pairs of her panties, and her pap smear. Know what they didn't have? Her blood. That's why the bullet was not allowed to be said to have blood on it. Blood was never mentioned as being on the bullet in prelim or trial testimony.
Her license plates? Question mark...why was an officer of MCSD calling her plates in 2 days before the car is found. Why does her license plates seem more important in a call to Calumet by a "citizen" than if her body is visible?
Her items? The jeans? 1 rivet is found in a fire that decimated her bones..yet is clean enough to be able to read "Daisy Fuentes"..one rivet. Her phone? Odd how police had her ex-bf so quickly find a motorola box in her house. same kind of phone they found in the burn barrel.
Her bones? One tooth..not even a whole tooth. A fragmented tooth. All her bones there? Of course not..They find some in the pit, some over there..some over there.
All all this found...by cops who were "to supply resources as the investigating police force needed, due to a conflict of interest"
No, there's more circumstantial evidence they planted than there is real evidence Avery killed her.
[–]Mr_Precedent
1) Agreed. SA's conviction would be much more certain if they had left an intact body IN the RAV. I think it was burned beyond recognition BECAUSE it contained evidence that implicated someone or something else (or because it wasn't her body).
2) All of the items that TH would have removed from her car IF SHE HAD MADE IT HOME were missing: purse, keys, phone charger, cash, paperwork.
If she died at home (say, from a drug overdose) - and the people who gave her the drugs (say, RH, MH and SB), called for help from the source of those drugs (say, Wiegert the big drug bust detective from CASO or Remiker the big drug bust detective at MTSO), and that source wanted the drugs to remain untraceable (say, the way CB's drugs remained untraceable) - PLUS be a big hero for saving Manitowoc County from a giant law$uit - they all might be inclined to help plant evidence at ASY and cremate the body so to any hide drug evidence.
To me, the most suspicious thing is that Wiegert knew BJ was SA on 11/3. That's not information he could get from a reverse search (as he claimed) or from Cingular (they don't provide incoming numbers) - and DP testified that she hadn't told him that. Unless SA was being watched by LEO (possible), the only other place that information could have come from (on 11/3) was Teresa or her phone. The devil is in the detail.
I thought about how TH's brother was 'grieving' before anything was found, how deeply RH was involved in the investigation as "an untrained LEO", how RH, MH and SB were allowed into a closed crime scene and never investigated as suspects, despite being the 3 men closest to her and most likely to notice and report her missing, and how sketchy their interviews and testimony were. I think they know what happened to her.
IF TH made it home (in the presence of RH, MH and SB) and something happened to her there, and it was covered up with the assistance of LEO, it would qualify as "shock and horror." All roads lead to Teresa's door.
RH was unemployed but made visits to drop stuff off to SB, who was rumored to be selling drugs. IF they happened to be in cahoots with CASO drug enforcement (Wiegert), I can see why nobody would want a death via drugs to be reported. I can see why Wiegert might consider SA the perfect scapegoat and involve Lenk - solve the big murder case AND save MTSO from an expensive lawsuit! Get the boys to move the RAV so any fingerprints are explainable. Cremate the body so drugs can't be detected. Have Lenk steal a vial of blood and plant a magic key, bones and electronics. Deny being on the property. Be vague about when you last saw her. Threaten/blackmail the Avery family so they don't interfere. Please the higher-ups AND collect awards.
Only FIVE people would know the truth - MW, JL, RH, MH and SB - and ALL of them would have a reason to keep their mouths shut.
Yes, there are a lot of IFs. And I could absolutely be wrong. But this is the only scenario (so far) that explains pretty much everything (to me).
[–]Mr_Precedent
Whomever she saw after she left SA's told Wiegert that BJ was SA on or before the evening of 11/3.
[-]magiclougie
When don't know when Wiegert wrote his report for his Nov 3rd activity. He found out before Nov 5th that SA setup the BJ appt so he linked BJ's number to SA, but not via a reverse lookup. He messed up when he wrote the report.
[–]1dotTRZ
These things are less of a roadblock for me than the timing vs. activity in Avery's civil suit. The astonishingly fortuitous, divine intervention timing that has to be successfully chewed and swallowed to get LE off the hook is more than I can handle. Is it so hard to accept that a crew that will frame a guy twice is not above committing, arranging or staging a murder...I mean, there doesn't seem to be many people here arguing that this crew didn't frame SA twice so it seems to me a bigger leap trying to keep LE's hands clean. That they are in it beyond just having a body fall in their lap and then planting evidence seems pretty bankable to me.
[–]DarthLurker
I am with you on the timing being overly convenient. I believe a lot of these cops are corrupt and framed SA twice and even that more than one are capable of murder. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that KP was directly involved in TH death given his vacation schedule or that JL & AC were convinced they were about to be ruined by the SA lawsuit and pulled into a cover up.
That said, I am not willing to overlook some other peoples suspicious activities and wouldn't have any trouble believing they were involved either. I think the whole belligerent GZ situation deserves more attention especially with the appointment time discrepancies. BoD's testimony about seeing TH going into SA trailer is a lie under oath, why? ST being his only mutual alibi may have helped him cover something up, he lied on the stand as well. RH & SB accessed and deleted TH voicemails what did they say, why were they deleted?
Regardless of how this all happened it is clear that the police laser focused on SA early on, again. Let me ask this, within one day of TH being reported missing the news was reporting that she was last seen at SA, who decided that? Who publicized that? That is when SA lost this case.
[–]DarthLurker
So I was listening to the call between DR and MW where they both say TH went to SA then GZ. That call was early on 11/5 before the RAV4 was found.
I may have been incorrect about the news saying she was last seen at SA on the 4th but this shows the police investigating her disappearance had evidence suggesting otherwise at least until the car was found.
[–]possibri
IIRC it was from the phone records RH gave to TF MW the night of the 3rd I think?
[–]possibri
So if you scroll to 18:20 on the official timeline for 11/03 it says MW went to TH house at 6:20pm to collect phone records, and then called Colborn 10 minutes later to go check out GZ and SA. The official write up for this initially mentions BJ as one of Teresa's clients (based on Lemieux speaking with AutoTrader). However, doing a reverse phone lookup he determines one of TH last calls was from Avery, hence why he tells Colborn to visit SA and not BJ.
[–]DarthLurker
Hmm... MW called AC at 18:30 on 11/3 you say? Is it odd that a report on 11/3 at 18:34 lists SA as a suspect for a non negligent homicide? No evidence of a crime but laser focus on SA for the worst possibility, nothing strange here!
[–]possibri
So, literally right after he calls Colborn and tells him to go talk to GZ and SA, he (or someone else) puts in the system that SA is a suspect for homicide. This also points to the idea that LEOs were never looking for a live person. Also, do we know if GZ was also put into the system as a suspect, or only SA? Because that would also point to tunnel vision right from the get-go.
[–]RiversidePrincess
What if someone (KP or TK) hired a professional (hit man) to handle their problem with SA?
Would they know any baddies that could be trusted to pull this off, through their decades of dealing with crims?
What if that professional was given licence to call all of the shots, inc who/what/when/where/how to handle the SA problem?
What if this request by (someone in) LE only consisted of two phone calls: One from LE to explain that SA had to go away immediately and forever, one from the pro to say "Job done, here's where you can pick up the evidence." It's really that simple.
Wouldn't an intact body and the keys the killer used to plant the car on ASY leave room for the possibility of finding DNA? (One single hair freed SA the first time....)
Was it done this way in order to leave room for an open & flexible narrative after evidence was found/planted/coerced/twisted?
What if it only took 2 or 3 LE in the know (KP, JL, maaayybe AC) to surveil, plant, & orchestrate the investigation, with everybody else just doing their jobs to help secure a conviction on who it appears committed the crime?
Would they risk a repeat GA incident/lawsuit, or the true story EVER coming out? They may not even know the exact details, doesn't mean they aren't responsible....I betcha money there are people in LE that have suspicions, but what do you do? Narc your boss out based on unprovable suspicions?
Was the job done well enough to stop the main respondents' depositions in the nick of time, with enough evidence to frame and convict SA?
Mmhmm.
[–]MnAtty
It makes you wonder if the people claiming it’s not her at all, are right.
Is there any DNA evidence anywhere, that was independently verified? Is all proof of DNA identification based on insider analysis and testimony?
I hope they can verify any DNA offered as proof, to the Nth degree. They have to make sure it’s not a relative’s DNA (but I can’t imagine such a switch would work).
[–]Canuck64
There was item BZ found by Agent Pevytoe on November 10th, said to originate from the burn pit. Culhane was only able you extract a partial profile so she sent it to the FBI for mitochondrial testing which confirmed that TH could not be excluded. I believe just about anybody else not directly related to Karen would be excluded (something like one in one billion?). On January 31, 2007 Buting and Strang were successful in preventing the test results and expert testimony from being entered at trial because the prosecution missed the December submission deadline. Although it was not admitted, Buting and Strang never questioned the identity of the bones.
I have no doubt the bones found in the burn pit belong to TH.
[–]dark-dare
My position on whether LE killed TH or not is this,,,we do not know.
We do not have proof those were TH's bones. We do not have a murder scene. We simply do not have enough information to clearly say anything. We can determine from the shady evidence, that it is entirely plausible that LE planted evidence and manipulated testimony and the jury. We can say this opportunity for LE to stop the civil suit was a perfect motive for the framing of SA.
Where TH is concerned, we have no proof she is dead. We cannot say how, when, where she died.We have no proof the bones belong to her. We can assume she is dead, we might assume she was murdered, but may not have been. It could be she died in an accident or suicide or natural causes. We have varying opinions because there is NO evidence to support any of the theories. In any of these scenarios, it is still quite likely that LE used her to frame SA.
It comes down to what each person is willing to believe, but it is all speculation.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
u/thed0ngs0ng suggested that LEO could have burned the body to eliminate all traces of DNA inadvertently left by the killer. I have to agree... We can speculate that the body was burned because the killer was concerned with either 1) making the victim more difficult to identify or 2) removing all trace evidence left on her body.
Most killers don't go to trouble of obliterating the corpse - generally we find shallow graves, body dumping in remote areas, etc... There had to be a reason for burning and u/thed0ngs0ng suggests an explanation as good as any.
[–]bashdotexe
I had a different interpretation of the "cops had to kill her" speech. KK was taking advantage of the fact DS and JB were not willing to say that MTSO had motive to kill her. They were only willing to say they had motive to plant evidence, which doesn't help the jury determine who should be held accountable for her death (as KK phrased it).
I think KZ could use that as an ineffective counsel argument. Nothing against DS and JB, that would be a very tough line to cross in court accusing police of murder.
There are quite a few of us here willing to "make that leap" though. /u/foghaze being one us with this post https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5b3z2o/those_with_the_glaring_motive_i_put_myself_in_the/
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
The only problem I have with u/foghaze's narrative is that the Zipperer appointment was made before the Janda appointment. Even if LE set the appointment up, unbeknownst to GZ, at that point - they couldn't have known TH was going to the Avery property that day. (Yes, TH went there on a semi-regular basis, but the entire plan falls apart if SA didn't have anything to photograph that day - which was likely because he hadn't scheduled anything up until 10/31.) It wasn't a sure thing that SA would call autotrader that day.
Couldn't they wait until the next appointment? Sure - but that puts KP "out of town" for no reason. Then what, he needs an alibi for every Monday until TH is dead.
Given the situation with the depositions, now much longer could KP have waited?
My gut tells me there is something very wrong with the Zipperer appointment, but setting it up in advance, not knowing if SA was going to need TH or not that day seems like a stretch.
Also, you're the sheriff of a department in the middle of serious depositions - do you really leave town at such a crucial time?
As an aside, it seems like Jodi would have been the ideal target. They had a history of fighting... Lucky for her, she was in jail on a DUI, but how hard would it have been for strings to be pulled and she be released early "due to overcrowding" or whatever...? I think she is lucky to be alive.
[–]bashdotexe
LE would have been monitoring every call JS had with SA and could have known he was going to call Auto Trader to come out the next day.
But I have the same problem as you that the GZ appointment doesn't make sense for LE to setup.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
Oh, I don't doubt for a minute that SA was under surveillance... His phones were almost definitely tapped... The conversation with JS came before SA called Autotrader - and it wasn't a sure thing that TH could make it there the following day.
SA called Autotrader at* 8:12am on 10/31. At that time, DP told SA that "It might be this Monday or next Monday." Fassbender notes p15
TH confirms the appointment on BJ's VM at 11:43.
MTSO would have had to have also tapped BJ's landline to get confirmation on the appointment. That's the only way they would have known - unless they also had TH's cell tapped. I'm not sure the planning ran that deep.
[–]bashdotexe
They may not have even had SA's phone tapped, I'm just going by what LE would definitely know which were the jail calls with Jodi.
Assuming they didn't illegally tap everyone's phone all they would know was Steven told Jodi he expected the photographer to come out the next day and worked off that information.
If they had him under visual surveillance for the previous several weeks they would have known who that person would be.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
JS in jail = definitely recorded...
We need all the documents from Avery's Civil Suit. Kocourek and Vogel story has been downplayed. It would have ruined their lives in MANY ways.
submitted by pinkynarfs at TickTockManitowoc
Although I understand the tendency to think LE killed TH, I keep hitting a wall with a couple aspects of the theory. Obviously the mannies (my new nickname for MTSO, apologies to male nannies whom I have the utmost respect for) are idiots, but I still find it hard to believe they could be such boners that they would:
1) cut up and burn TH to the point of cremains, thus potentially eliminating a DNA match. LE more than anyone would know that DNA match would be crucial to ensure a conviction. Why go through the hours of burning? This seems like hiding evidence, not preparing evidence for planting.
2) dispose of her purse, wallet, and original keys. These are the strongest pieces of physical evidence they could plant, because she would certainly have had them the day she died.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
I don't think LE killed her. I don't think they ever saw her body.
But there is more circumstantial evidence they planted all incriminating evidence. Every single thing had question marks.
Blood in Rav4...lo and behold. MCSD has his blood
Her key with his DNA. Not her car keys mind you. Just the spare key. His DNA? lo and behold. MCSD has his DNA
The bullet with her DNA? Lo and behold. They had her vibrator, 7 pairs of her panties, and her pap smear. Know what they didn't have? Her blood. That's why the bullet was not allowed to be said to have blood on it. Blood was never mentioned as being on the bullet in prelim or trial testimony.
Her license plates? Question mark...why was an officer of MCSD calling her plates in 2 days before the car is found. Why does her license plates seem more important in a call to Calumet by a "citizen" than if her body is visible?
Her items? The jeans? 1 rivet is found in a fire that decimated her bones..yet is clean enough to be able to read "Daisy Fuentes"..one rivet. Her phone? Odd how police had her ex-bf so quickly find a motorola box in her house. same kind of phone they found in the burn barrel.
Her bones? One tooth..not even a whole tooth. A fragmented tooth. All her bones there? Of course not..They find some in the pit, some over there..some over there.
All all this found...by cops who were "to supply resources as the investigating police force needed, due to a conflict of interest"
No, there's more circumstantial evidence they planted than there is real evidence Avery killed her.
[–]Mr_Precedent
1) Agreed. SA's conviction would be much more certain if they had left an intact body IN the RAV. I think it was burned beyond recognition BECAUSE it contained evidence that implicated someone or something else (or because it wasn't her body).
2) All of the items that TH would have removed from her car IF SHE HAD MADE IT HOME were missing: purse, keys, phone charger, cash, paperwork.
If she died at home (say, from a drug overdose) - and the people who gave her the drugs (say, RH, MH and SB), called for help from the source of those drugs (say, Wiegert the big drug bust detective from CASO or Remiker the big drug bust detective at MTSO), and that source wanted the drugs to remain untraceable (say, the way CB's drugs remained untraceable) - PLUS be a big hero for saving Manitowoc County from a giant law$uit - they all might be inclined to help plant evidence at ASY and cremate the body so to any hide drug evidence.
To me, the most suspicious thing is that Wiegert knew BJ was SA on 11/3. That's not information he could get from a reverse search (as he claimed) or from Cingular (they don't provide incoming numbers) - and DP testified that she hadn't told him that. Unless SA was being watched by LEO (possible), the only other place that information could have come from (on 11/3) was Teresa or her phone. The devil is in the detail.
I thought about how TH's brother was 'grieving' before anything was found, how deeply RH was involved in the investigation as "an untrained LEO", how RH, MH and SB were allowed into a closed crime scene and never investigated as suspects, despite being the 3 men closest to her and most likely to notice and report her missing, and how sketchy their interviews and testimony were. I think they know what happened to her.
IF TH made it home (in the presence of RH, MH and SB) and something happened to her there, and it was covered up with the assistance of LEO, it would qualify as "shock and horror." All roads lead to Teresa's door.
RH was unemployed but made visits to drop stuff off to SB, who was rumored to be selling drugs. IF they happened to be in cahoots with CASO drug enforcement (Wiegert), I can see why nobody would want a death via drugs to be reported. I can see why Wiegert might consider SA the perfect scapegoat and involve Lenk - solve the big murder case AND save MTSO from an expensive lawsuit! Get the boys to move the RAV so any fingerprints are explainable. Cremate the body so drugs can't be detected. Have Lenk steal a vial of blood and plant a magic key, bones and electronics. Deny being on the property. Be vague about when you last saw her. Threaten/blackmail the Avery family so they don't interfere. Please the higher-ups AND collect awards.
Only FIVE people would know the truth - MW, JL, RH, MH and SB - and ALL of them would have a reason to keep their mouths shut.
Yes, there are a lot of IFs. And I could absolutely be wrong. But this is the only scenario (so far) that explains pretty much everything (to me).
[–]Mr_Precedent
Whomever she saw after she left SA's told Wiegert that BJ was SA on or before the evening of 11/3.
[-]magiclougie
When don't know when Wiegert wrote his report for his Nov 3rd activity. He found out before Nov 5th that SA setup the BJ appt so he linked BJ's number to SA, but not via a reverse lookup. He messed up when he wrote the report.
[–]1dotTRZ
These things are less of a roadblock for me than the timing vs. activity in Avery's civil suit. The astonishingly fortuitous, divine intervention timing that has to be successfully chewed and swallowed to get LE off the hook is more than I can handle. Is it so hard to accept that a crew that will frame a guy twice is not above committing, arranging or staging a murder...I mean, there doesn't seem to be many people here arguing that this crew didn't frame SA twice so it seems to me a bigger leap trying to keep LE's hands clean. That they are in it beyond just having a body fall in their lap and then planting evidence seems pretty bankable to me.
[–]DarthLurker
I am with you on the timing being overly convenient. I believe a lot of these cops are corrupt and framed SA twice and even that more than one are capable of murder. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that KP was directly involved in TH death given his vacation schedule or that JL & AC were convinced they were about to be ruined by the SA lawsuit and pulled into a cover up.
That said, I am not willing to overlook some other peoples suspicious activities and wouldn't have any trouble believing they were involved either. I think the whole belligerent GZ situation deserves more attention especially with the appointment time discrepancies. BoD's testimony about seeing TH going into SA trailer is a lie under oath, why? ST being his only mutual alibi may have helped him cover something up, he lied on the stand as well. RH & SB accessed and deleted TH voicemails what did they say, why were they deleted?
Regardless of how this all happened it is clear that the police laser focused on SA early on, again. Let me ask this, within one day of TH being reported missing the news was reporting that she was last seen at SA, who decided that? Who publicized that? That is when SA lost this case.
[–]DarthLurker
So I was listening to the call between DR and MW where they both say TH went to SA then GZ. That call was early on 11/5 before the RAV4 was found.
I may have been incorrect about the news saying she was last seen at SA on the 4th but this shows the police investigating her disappearance had evidence suggesting otherwise at least until the car was found.
[–]possibri
IIRC it was from the phone records RH gave to TF MW the night of the 3rd I think?
[–]possibri
So if you scroll to 18:20 on the official timeline for 11/03 it says MW went to TH house at 6:20pm to collect phone records, and then called Colborn 10 minutes later to go check out GZ and SA. The official write up for this initially mentions BJ as one of Teresa's clients (based on Lemieux speaking with AutoTrader). However, doing a reverse phone lookup he determines one of TH last calls was from Avery, hence why he tells Colborn to visit SA and not BJ.
[–]DarthLurker
Hmm... MW called AC at 18:30 on 11/3 you say? Is it odd that a report on 11/3 at 18:34 lists SA as a suspect for a non negligent homicide? No evidence of a crime but laser focus on SA for the worst possibility, nothing strange here!
[–]possibri
So, literally right after he calls Colborn and tells him to go talk to GZ and SA, he (or someone else) puts in the system that SA is a suspect for homicide. This also points to the idea that LEOs were never looking for a live person. Also, do we know if GZ was also put into the system as a suspect, or only SA? Because that would also point to tunnel vision right from the get-go.
[–]RiversidePrincess
What if someone (KP or TK) hired a professional (hit man) to handle their problem with SA?
Would they know any baddies that could be trusted to pull this off, through their decades of dealing with crims?
What if that professional was given licence to call all of the shots, inc who/what/when/where/how to handle the SA problem?
What if this request by (someone in) LE only consisted of two phone calls: One from LE to explain that SA had to go away immediately and forever, one from the pro to say "Job done, here's where you can pick up the evidence." It's really that simple.
Wouldn't an intact body and the keys the killer used to plant the car on ASY leave room for the possibility of finding DNA? (One single hair freed SA the first time....)
Was it done this way in order to leave room for an open & flexible narrative after evidence was found/planted/coerced/twisted?
What if it only took 2 or 3 LE in the know (KP, JL, maaayybe AC) to surveil, plant, & orchestrate the investigation, with everybody else just doing their jobs to help secure a conviction on who it appears committed the crime?
Would they risk a repeat GA incident/lawsuit, or the true story EVER coming out? They may not even know the exact details, doesn't mean they aren't responsible....I betcha money there are people in LE that have suspicions, but what do you do? Narc your boss out based on unprovable suspicions?
Was the job done well enough to stop the main respondents' depositions in the nick of time, with enough evidence to frame and convict SA?
Mmhmm.
[–]MnAtty
It makes you wonder if the people claiming it’s not her at all, are right.
Is there any DNA evidence anywhere, that was independently verified? Is all proof of DNA identification based on insider analysis and testimony?
I hope they can verify any DNA offered as proof, to the Nth degree. They have to make sure it’s not a relative’s DNA (but I can’t imagine such a switch would work).
[–]Canuck64
There was item BZ found by Agent Pevytoe on November 10th, said to originate from the burn pit. Culhane was only able you extract a partial profile so she sent it to the FBI for mitochondrial testing which confirmed that TH could not be excluded. I believe just about anybody else not directly related to Karen would be excluded (something like one in one billion?). On January 31, 2007 Buting and Strang were successful in preventing the test results and expert testimony from being entered at trial because the prosecution missed the December submission deadline. Although it was not admitted, Buting and Strang never questioned the identity of the bones.
I have no doubt the bones found in the burn pit belong to TH.
[–]dark-dare
My position on whether LE killed TH or not is this,,,we do not know.
We do not have proof those were TH's bones. We do not have a murder scene. We simply do not have enough information to clearly say anything. We can determine from the shady evidence, that it is entirely plausible that LE planted evidence and manipulated testimony and the jury. We can say this opportunity for LE to stop the civil suit was a perfect motive for the framing of SA.
Where TH is concerned, we have no proof she is dead. We cannot say how, when, where she died.We have no proof the bones belong to her. We can assume she is dead, we might assume she was murdered, but may not have been. It could be she died in an accident or suicide or natural causes. We have varying opinions because there is NO evidence to support any of the theories. In any of these scenarios, it is still quite likely that LE used her to frame SA.
It comes down to what each person is willing to believe, but it is all speculation.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
u/thed0ngs0ng suggested that LEO could have burned the body to eliminate all traces of DNA inadvertently left by the killer. I have to agree... We can speculate that the body was burned because the killer was concerned with either 1) making the victim more difficult to identify or 2) removing all trace evidence left on her body.
Most killers don't go to trouble of obliterating the corpse - generally we find shallow graves, body dumping in remote areas, etc... There had to be a reason for burning and u/thed0ngs0ng suggests an explanation as good as any.
[–]bashdotexe
I had a different interpretation of the "cops had to kill her" speech. KK was taking advantage of the fact DS and JB were not willing to say that MTSO had motive to kill her. They were only willing to say they had motive to plant evidence, which doesn't help the jury determine who should be held accountable for her death (as KK phrased it).
I think KZ could use that as an ineffective counsel argument. Nothing against DS and JB, that would be a very tough line to cross in court accusing police of murder.
There are quite a few of us here willing to "make that leap" though. /u/foghaze being one us with this post https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5b3z2o/those_with_the_glaring_motive_i_put_myself_in_the/
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
The only problem I have with u/foghaze's narrative is that the Zipperer appointment was made before the Janda appointment. Even if LE set the appointment up, unbeknownst to GZ, at that point - they couldn't have known TH was going to the Avery property that day. (Yes, TH went there on a semi-regular basis, but the entire plan falls apart if SA didn't have anything to photograph that day - which was likely because he hadn't scheduled anything up until 10/31.) It wasn't a sure thing that SA would call autotrader that day.
Couldn't they wait until the next appointment? Sure - but that puts KP "out of town" for no reason. Then what, he needs an alibi for every Monday until TH is dead.
Given the situation with the depositions, now much longer could KP have waited?
My gut tells me there is something very wrong with the Zipperer appointment, but setting it up in advance, not knowing if SA was going to need TH or not that day seems like a stretch.
Also, you're the sheriff of a department in the middle of serious depositions - do you really leave town at such a crucial time?
As an aside, it seems like Jodi would have been the ideal target. They had a history of fighting... Lucky for her, she was in jail on a DUI, but how hard would it have been for strings to be pulled and she be released early "due to overcrowding" or whatever...? I think she is lucky to be alive.
[–]bashdotexe
LE would have been monitoring every call JS had with SA and could have known he was going to call Auto Trader to come out the next day.
But I have the same problem as you that the GZ appointment doesn't make sense for LE to setup.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
Oh, I don't doubt for a minute that SA was under surveillance... His phones were almost definitely tapped... The conversation with JS came before SA called Autotrader - and it wasn't a sure thing that TH could make it there the following day.
SA called Autotrader at* 8:12am on 10/31. At that time, DP told SA that "It might be this Monday or next Monday." Fassbender notes p15
TH confirms the appointment on BJ's VM at 11:43.
MTSO would have had to have also tapped BJ's landline to get confirmation on the appointment. That's the only way they would have known - unless they also had TH's cell tapped. I'm not sure the planning ran that deep.
[–]bashdotexe
They may not have even had SA's phone tapped, I'm just going by what LE would definitely know which were the jail calls with Jodi.
Assuming they didn't illegally tap everyone's phone all they would know was Steven told Jodi he expected the photographer to come out the next day and worked off that information.
If they had him under visual surveillance for the previous several weeks they would have known who that person would be.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
JS in jail = definitely recorded...
We need all the documents from Avery's Civil Suit. Kocourek and Vogel story has been downplayed. It would have ruined their lives in MANY ways.
submitted at Reddit by foghaze
I've come to my own conclusions about who killed TH. Why they did it and how they did it. You don't have to agree but after reading all the documents and researching for hundreds of hours this is the only thing that makes sense out of all of it.
We don't know much about what was going on in Avery's civil case and I believe that is for a very good reason. I think if we had the documents we may be singing a whole new tune about who we think had a motive. I found a link to all the documents in Avery's Civil case here. None are available for free except for one. However, this one document can give us a pretty good idea of what was going on regarding the case. It appears to me that this civil suit would have been a very big deal to Kocourek and Vogel specifically. Not only are they named but if you read the only document we have access to at the moment you can see almost everything they are being accused of personally. From what I can tell this would have ruined their lives completely. It wasn't just about the large sum of money but it was also about their names, their careers, their dignity, their respect. Their lives would be shattered! This one document is very specific in that it lists everything they did to frame Avery and it isn't pretty. I wish we had the rest. I will ask /u/Skipptopp to please consider getting access to these files. If all the funds have run out I think we should all get together and raise just enough to get access to this. I think it will answer many of our questions.
One of the most interesting things about this document. (Aside from it being in Oct 2005) is it looked so bad for both Vogel and Kocourek that they asked for a TRIAL BY JURY October 2005. You know it's bad when someone demands a Jury. So it wasn't good at all for these two. It outlines and accuses Vogel and Koucorek personally in their wrong doing. If Avery would have won this thing (which it looked like he was going to). It would have been a public spectacle and it would have been the end for these two and quite possibly looking at jail time if Avery won.
On top of all this Vogel, Kocourek et al. had a deep hate for SA already and this civil suit put them over the edge. I believe they would have done anything in their power to keep from the tables turning. The thought of them being publicly humiliated and held responsible for their actions didn't sit well with them at all. More fuel to the fire is SA turns out the Millionaire and they are left with nothing. Talk about the tables turning! Their hate for this man is very clear. If this civil suit went through it would mean Avery WON and they lost. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen. Not a chance. From what I can tell just by reading this document it looks to me like Avery was well on his way to winning the civil suit and everyone involved knew it. Otherwise why would they ask for a TRIAL by JURY?
Moving on, everyone involved kept all the dirty details of the civil suit low key and only discussed it amongst themselves. They made the public believe it wasn't a big deal and they even made the public think Avery was suing just the county and no one personally which if you read the link to the document above you can see that is a big fat lie. In fact there were talks about naming other individuals in the lawsuit. Specifically Kushe, Colborn and Lenk and they knew it too. Colborn even admits on the stand he was concerned about being named.
With that being said Kocourek and Vogel were both out of the Manitowoc LE picture by this time. Vogel had moved on to bigger and better things and Kocourek had retired. I'm really surprised at how many of us forget how much of a motive these men had. This got me to thinking. I am pretty convinced these big dogs (Vogel and Koucorek) had something to do with TH murder. Why not? They set him up the first time didn't they? So why wouldn't they do it again? How would they do it?
I think it would be similar as the first time. In fact I see a multitude of similarities from the 1985 case and this one. They also knew that killing Avery wasn't an option b/c they would still be liable in the Civil case and they also knew that the public would be very suspicious of them and Avery would be dead so he would have no voice in the matter. So to avoid the public of blaming them they decide to frame him for murder. How could they do it? One of the big dogs could easily hire someone. These men had contact with criminals. Of course they would know someone who would do the deed for the right price. They most likely just threatened them into doing it. That seems to be their trend there. By getting someone else to kill TH it helps with their own conscience because they aren't the ones who are actually pulling the trigger. That is how they deal with it. They get a criminal to do their dirty work.
The way I see it is if one of these men did it then they wouldn't really need to tell everyone in LE what they did. In fact once TH went missing and everyone in LE saw she had been to SA's they were thinking "HOLY SHIT! Someone killed her to blame it on Avery! I gotta roll with this." I think it was more of a "Silent" frame job and none of them spoke a word of it to each other. I believe they all knew it was an inside job and just went with it to cover their own asses. I don't think many knew it was Vogel and/or Kocourek and no one would even dare ask. They just went with the flow because several others in LE were also concerned they may be liable in Avery's suit as well. In other words they all knew what they needed to do without asking questions. Once the deed was done everyone in LE just went with the flow. Let's face it. It was a terrible frame up job. They clearly didn't have time to think it all though. They just knew they had to roll with it and that they did.
Something else peculiar that I've been questioning is on Nov 5, the day the car was found, Peterson who was sheriff at the time was also good buddies with Vogel and Kocourek. They had worked together most of their lives. Peterson was out of town and arrived home late 11/5. He stated he immediately "divorced himself" from the investigation and he did! Now why would he do that? Is it because he knew? That is the only thing I can think of. I think he bolted out of town before it all went down and he knew something was going to happen and it wasn't good. Being out of town is a great alibi and a really good way to keep himself out of the picture. If you think about it all these "big dogs" were very successful at staying out of the picture.
If you ask me there was more than 36 million motives to frame Avery. Everything these well respected men had worked for all their lives could be washed down the drain. Their dignity and respect with the community out the window forever and their worst nightmare of some low life scum practically owning the County and most of the state would come true. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen and they didn't.
It has been stated many times statistically the likelihood of TH being murdered by some random person who had also coincidentally had contact with SA that day is slim to none. Manitowoc has approximately one murder every 2 years. We are supposed to believe this random murder with perfect timing just fell into LE's lap? Come on. We are delusional if we believe this. I will admit I had gone back and forth but now that I have put a lot of thought into this there is no other way this could have happened if Avery didn't do it. Which I believe 100% he did not.
One more thing I'd like to add. This scenario doesn't go well with what KZ has stated about TH knowing her killer. I realize this and I do wonder a lot about what Zellner has actually found. I feel like she says things just to throw the guilty parties off. She has stated she doesn't want them to "run" and in all honesty I would do the same. Everything she publically states is very calculated. We are talking about someone's life here. There is no way she would say anything to jeopardize SA or BD. I wouldn't and I may even tell some white lies. With that being said I really truly believe Vogel and Kocourek had the biggest motive of all and I think they had the power to pull it off without neither actually having to pull the trigger. All they would need to do is make some phone calls. Being how messed up TH phone records are (one number even being disconnected) I'd say that is exactly what they did.
[–]thom_driftwood wrote at Reddit
Wild Speculation of the Day:
Carmen didn't die. On November 3rd, Colborn found Teresa's body after she OD'd. They knew Carmen looked like her, so they struck a deal and wrote off Teresa as Carmen. Carmen and her BF disappear into the blue as part of the agreement. This is why Manitowac handled all of her paperwork (and so quickly). This is why the search turns into an Avery witch hunt on the third. This explains just about everything, actually.
This is why Carmen's Co-Accused was released and vanished immediately after Carmen's "death"
This is why Remiker said this case would never be solved
This is why Avery is the only suspect
This is why none of the other possible suspects were thoroughly investigated
This is why they burned Teresa's body (possibly in JR's burn barrels?)
Is this why the framers had so little blood?
This is how Manitowac didn't feel bad about letting a murderer wander about murdering things
Did this buy Dr. Candyman protection?
This explains Mike's (and Karen's) behavior in the courtroom and in front of the press
Edit: is Carmen Boutwell at the corrections facility? Someone claimed to have seen Teresa there....
[–]Juror91 wrote at Reddit on April 29, 2016
It was a cold call by a telemarketer that was contracted by AutoTrader. They look through classifies and call people who have auto ads running in their local paper. They set up an appointment with no obligation to purchase the ad. The local AT office is given the information and they send the photographer out to the address. The photographer takes a picture of the automobile and then leaves info about how AT works, as well as complimentary magazine, bill of sale for when the vehicle is sold and a for sale sign for the car. The photographer is to try to close the sale but if not able to lets them know if they change their mind to call the number on the information and they will place the ad accordingly.Agree with all of the above. Now speculating... if Mrs. Zipperer did not see TH leave, maybe Jason Zipperer and TH had an encounter as he was arriving home. JZ either dictated to TH or wrote the Zander road address on an extra For Sale sign she had in her RAV4 and asked her to meet him there for another "hot shot" call. He then, ultimately murdered her on 10/31, and burned her body on 11/1 - when the smoke disturbed Metz's nearby cattle (page 289).
Mrs. Z stated Jason didn't arrive home until the evening of 10/31, yes? And she can't see the road from where she was outside. JZ makes no phone calls to TH, and there's no witnesses that see them together, so if he is sturdy enough, he is hard to connect to TH.
Then I follow up with the opportunity for LE to frame SA and end the depositions in his civil suit against the county, saving the county millions. They (Colborn) find the car, calls in the plates, identifies the horrific scene, and most likely, calls Lenk. They are convinced SA was her last stop and the frame begins. They plant the key, the license plate, the FOR SALE sign (after penning her # on it), the bullet, and they transport the vehicle to SA's property. (Not necessarily in the order, but you get what I'm saying yes?)
They then trample the scene with 700+ attendees, bully the experts into telling the LE story, convince the press, and find some fat, gullible DA - that has a need to be coveted - to sicken the public with his own private fantasy. All that's left is to brutally coerce a minor, convince a local judge of certain re-election, manipulate the evidence and bam, you just saved $36 million dollars. Clark is buying that pool at Christmas. No Jelly of the Month club that year.
Of course, this does not come close to explaining the additional strange behavior by everyone that could even remotely be considered a suspect. Why are so many others so willing to lie or mislead? They can't ALL be involved.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too at Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/user/hos_gotta_eat_too
In a couple hours my full theories should be available, and all are speculation only.
But I will sneak-peek my Zipperer theory.
My speculation is that Teresa showed up at Zipperer's and George and Jason were not home. She pointed to where the car was for Teresa to take the pictures. Teresa went to the car, and the dog (most likely a big dog considering George said it would 'eat her') attacked her, took her to the ground and was mauling her.
Mrs. Zipperer ran to the house to get a gun and try to save Teresa, but she accidently shot Teresa, or she shot the dog and the bullet passed through the dog, hitting and killing Teresa.
When George and/or Jason got home, they discovered the body, put her in the back of the Rav4, took her to the smelter, and burned the body.
Nov. 3rd, when Andy drove by, he learned the story ..which explained his call to dispatch, as well as his "I drove by but the lights were off" story. He informed Lenk, and from there they handled everything and told them to not talk to the police about it.
When Dedering came by, this theory explains the hesitance for the Zipperers to not come out of the house for 20 minutes (reassured by Andy), and also explain why she refused to speak in person, only through a window. She was terrified she was going to be arrested.
But, again...this is speculation, and I have a theory like this for all persons involved. Because every damn person is so shady.
[–]adelltfm at Reddit
Why go through all of that just to tell the first cop that shows up though?
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too at Reddit
They may have had no choice..he likely spotted her Rav4 and began asking questions. With Zipperer related to members of the sheriff's, he may have felt he was "looking out for his own"
[–]z_vida at Reddit
The only thing that made me think of Z/dog story as a possibility was when someone recently pointed out that in later visits there was never any report of a dog barking--maybe it was you since you have thought this through. Your version has the more believable nuance with Mrs Z trying to stop an attack with a gun no less (bad move as anyone who has had to break up a serious dog fight knows).
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too at Reddit
that was my theory.
every detail must be in a report.
[–]FindTheTruth08 at Reddit
I dont really have an idea which one it was, but i do think her death was an accident at the Zipperers. They freaked and called contacts in LE(probably Gene Kushe) to ask what to do. I think from this point on it turns into a coverup and a frame job. Covering up an accident could be justified to some. Framing a man who just beat the system on a rape they still believe he did, to some might seem justified. Maybe the Zipperers are actually victims of the LE corruption as well. Trying to do the right thing by reaching out to LE about an accident and LE in turn scares them with the possibility of jail time so they worked with LE to frame SA. While they would still deserve to be punished, i would hope they are given a deal to spill the beans on everyone involved.
[–]HankGunn at Reddit
I like it. That explains things a lot more conveniently than just crazy old GZ. The parts about Colburn and Dedering's involvement are exactly what I've been thinking before about this too. Such a scenario would help Colburn and Lenk try to morally justify framing Avery in their mind, if they knew her death was an accident. Might as well make it a happy accident and get rid of Avery in the process.
[–]ForeverRotts at Reddit
The Dog.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too at Reddit
JoEllen Zipperer or the dog.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too at Reddit
"Strang says he supposedly rambles on about how he would have his dog eat Teresa if she ever came on his property"
In no reports other than Cpl. Leslie LeMieux does a dog get mentioned.
This is important to me for several coincidental reasons, but the most important is the fact that police officers are trained to put every little thing into their report. Anything..the smallest detail could be the biggest clue.
A dog mentioned by one cop (who interviewed him by phone) but not mentioned by 3 others (who interviewed him at his home) is odd. Almost like the dog wasn't there. We hear dispatch talking to a cop asking for the number for Two Rivers Animal Hospital. Background mentioned of "full bracelet" and "burnpit" are heard. We know this isn't Avery's property, due to the fact they didn't find the bones until a couple days after finding the car.
But the key to me is a dog that is "gonna eat her"....is not barking furiously and ferociously at officers knocking on both the front and back doors?
Dog owners, I have a feeling you will back me up on this...ain't NO way you are getting that kind of attention to your house, for that long, without a dog losing his fucking mind and barking until he can't bark anymore.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
BAM!!!!
JUST WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR!
LeMieux's report. during a PHONE call...she can hear the dog barking and getting excited and she documents it!
Dedering, Remiker, Colborn...no mention of the dog later!
"GEORGE told me that it was a mean dog and anybody who came on his property better watch out cause it could eat them starling with the feet."
[–]onepieceofgumleft at Reddit
I'm not talking about a documentary. I'm talking about the evidence photo where everything is still undisturbed on the cabinet that Colborn testifies he ' handled rather roughly, twisting and pulling'. Lenk testifies it was empty, yet 'key' photo shows a remote on top, nothing disturbed, and a pen centered on a paper bottom right cubby. The depositions aren't in MAM at all, they're on Post Crescent news, Colborn statements are different than Lenk and Petersen, AND in Corry testimony he says he never talked to anyone about it at the time, but Kuche, Petersen etc contradict that. He lies again in an email recently to current DA LaBre, changing his testimony again by saying the key was hidden behind the cabinet. He doesn't realize there's a photo straight shot behind that cabinet already without the key. DNA- Kuche says he trusts his sketchy sketch, that he knows he traced because SA didn't even look like that at the time, more than DNA because DNA can be planted! 2 mos before TH disappeared. Renmaker/Lenk Also got buccal and crotch swabs 10 days after TH disappeared, under protest by low IQ Steve Avery, because they already had his DNA profile and didn't need it. Everything Dassey said was coerced after a night at Foxhill, unrecorded, by Factbender and Weigurt. (See Lincoln hill,WI shut down youth for rape/torture of teens) THEY had his non blood dna. After swabs taken they said you're right, tech tossed them in unsecured hazbox with them still in the room and left. There's a fingerprint on Rav hood unidentified, not SA's, they never put it in afis, judge wouldn't let defense test it. There's dna at the quarry bones, not SA's, never put in codis, judge refused defense checking who's it could be. YOU only watched a documentary and media. I've studied everything about it. It's 100% impossible for Steven or Brendan to have done it. I'd bet my life on it, and I have great value in my life.
[–]Kochsboy at Reddit
They should be released without a trial. They were without any form of due process or letter of the law. The DA`s job is to find the truth and nothing but the truth so help you God. Well the DA Ken Kratz found Dassey guilty of stabbing her in the trailer and Avery of shooting her 16 times in the garage. So which story was the truth or did Kratz ever care about the Truth or just save the state 36 million. Once many of the Manitowoc LE were deposed and they were desperate I bet even their own grandmothers were scared .
[–]MrDoradus at Reddit
Killer disposes of Teresa's body somewhere else, which was never found til now by LE. He drives the car with all her personal belongings onto the property, then bolts.
The car is found at least the night before the 5th by either the LE or the search group (possibly it's found on the third with Colborn involved). Everyone in this group wholeheartedly believes SA is the real killer from this point on.
Colborn comes back on the 4th (plants the blood, takes all of Teresa's belongings, which the family never saw because it was too dark and in the best case scenario they don't even know they had to be planted in the barrels).
They play out the find of the vehicle early on the 5th, with everything in place as it is now. The rest unravels so slowly because they believed they'll find legitimate evidence of Teresa being murdered in Steven's trailer. When they realize that's not the case, they plant the key, they later even plant the bones (which in this case really aren't Teresa's) and plant her belongings in the burn barrel. Then even later on they plant the bullets to "accommodate" the Dassey confession. Two man team would be able to pull all this off with a little help from a biased technician who identified the planted bones to belong to Teresa.
In this scenario everyone believes SA did it and there isn't a any doubt about that in their mind (confirmation bias and strong emotions), that's why no one came forward so far. They believe the right man is behind bars and will do everything in their power to keep it that way.
If this scenario happened, there would have been plenty of evidence left behind in the RAV4 that they intentionally overlooked on the request of Colborn through someone in a higher place of power, who's in on the whole planting scheme but also believes SA did it.
MsMinxster
After reading the transcripts, George or the grandson were at the top of my list of possible suspects. My theory:
Oct 31st--
• TH went to the Zipperers' last and likely got by shot for trespassing. Whether it was G or J (both have history of anger issues), it was an accident. But Jason had just been arrested that month, so they panicked, dumped her body in the back of the RAV4, drove somewhere on their property to bury her, and attempted to abandon the car at Avery's (with one of them following behind in their own car) because they could see from the paperwork in her car that she had just come from there.
• Too many customers were still milling around the salvage yard, so George/Jason left Avery’s (RAV4 spotted by propane truck driver). They abandoned the RAV4 somewhere between their home and Avery’s.
Nov 3rd--
• When she’s reported missing and Steven Avery is tangentially linked, The Lenk Colburn Injustice league is convinced he’s their man and set the wheels of corruption in motion. Colburn is sent to Steven’s, and as an aside, several attempts are made to interview GZ—phone calls by deputies and finally Dedering is sent in person.
• Colburn was supposed to meet w/ the Zipperers’ as well, but finds the RAV4 on his way there from Avery’s. He calls in the plates on his cell (not realizing that police line is recorded—per Lenk’s testimony). Colburn then calls Lenk to let him know he found the car—they can nail Steven (the one guy who can derail Colburn’s run for sheriff before it begins) and end the $36M lawsuit. But by this time, word is getting around that GZ is acting suspicious. Lenk advises Colburn to keep the discovery of the RAV4 quiet until they can come up w/ a plan and not to file a report on his interview w/ Avery (you know, like last time, when they kept Steven in prison for a crime he didn’t commit).
Nov 4th--
• Lenk heads to Avery’s for some reconnaissance and takes Remiker along to make it look legit. According to his and Remiker’s testimony, he drives all around the salvage lot “not sure where he’s going” (checking out the spot Colburn recommended they hide the car—remember, Colburn had been to Avery’s many times in the past as a customer).
• While they interview Steven—inside the trailer—Remiker does most of the chatting while Lenk checks out the best places to plant evidence. They also learn most of the Averys are heading to Crivitz for the weekend until Tuesday.
• Meanwhile, on his day off, Colburn heads over to Zipperers’ to get the full story. He learns TH’s death was an accident. Either Lenk or one of his higher-level co-conspirators make the deal—if the Zipperers disclose the location of the body, Manitowoc’s finest will make sure they aren’t charged w/ TH’s death. Deal done, but unfortunately, the Zipperers disposed of TH’s car keys.
• Lenk et al know they can’t just plant TH’s body on Steven’s property because it is likely covered w/ GZ’s DNA. The smelter at the sheriff’s salvage yard is the perfect solution. (Anonymous "sikikey" letter states a body was burned in the smelter on Friday at 3am. The letter was sent to Green Bay—NOT Manitowoc or Calumet since it was Manitowoc sheriff’s smelter).
• Ryan and Mike are given a head’s up that car has been found but a citizen needs to find it. Lenk also retrieves the spare key at this point.
Nov 5th--
• Early am—RAV4 driven onto Avery lot (any sooner and one of the Averys or a customer might have discovered it), plates stashed in random car (to cover up Colburn’s dumb ass call), and Pam Led-by-God is given the go ahead.
• One of the Lenk Braintrust, having realized that lack of Steven’s DNA sank them last time, swipes the vial and hands it off to Lenk. During the trial, Buting reiterated many times the tarp covering RAV4 had plenty of room for someone to enter on the passenger side (to, you know, plant blood/DNA evidence inside the car).
• At some point—either late that night or on Sunday, bones removed from smelter and placed on Steven’s property.
Lenk and the Corruption League’s clumsiness/stupidity is revealed as they plant ridiculously obvious evidence during the course of the investigation to “put TH in Steven’s trailer and garage” at any cost. (“Look, there’s a key here.” MONTHS later—“Thought I’d take on the tasks of an intern and bring you Calumet officers some donuts. Hey look, Remiker just found a bullet w/ TH’s DNA on it.” Slow clap for you Lenk.)
Reposted here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42v9do/zipperercolburnlenk_cover_up_theory/?ref=share&ref_source=link
JuanTescrue 3 points a month ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_EAI2JbUI
I state in my presentation that they have a major motive here. They're about to lose everything. But, that would require multiple people. I hadn't even considered the cops doing this (vs. stumbling upon her dead body and going from there, but Gregory Allen managed to assault Penny B. the few hours the cops weren’t watching him so happenstance is possible. Also wasn’t Gene Kusche the cop who lost a tail on him? Please verify) until Jodi gave her "Steve's guilty" speech on Nancy Grace's blah channel. That was what really made me think the cops had more to do with this. I also mention in the presentation that the Averys are related to everyone in town it seems. I knew people from a community like that. Everyone there said they were related to "The Crusher" you know, the old wrestler? Turns out, they weren't lying. Which makes sense when I read an article that 37% of people never leave the town they grew up in and I think it’s like 70+% live within a 50 mile radius of where they grew up, so having major family ties, especially in a small community, is not uncommon. And family either hates each other or sticks together. "Blood is thicker than water"? That whole bit? Now with Kris Zipperer being the Court Evidence Clerk for Manitowoc, Deputy Zipperer on the Sheriff’s Dept., and Gene Kusche a distant Zipperer, all being related and Gene being a MAJOR player in all of this with the supposed surveillance loss of Gregory Allen, the Avery Police sketch and the refusal to admit Avery’s innocence (like Sheriff Peterson as well) it isn’t too far-fetched to think that Jodi’s unintentional spill will be what cracks this case. There are people imbedded in that department that are about to lose everything and an opportunity either strikes them with luck with Zipperer going mad or someone telling him to or being in the barn to blast her on their property. Did Jodi misbehave that week so they didn’t let her out but didn’t tell her? Did that ever happen before? Why would you not let someone attend an AA meeting. Sounds too fishy to me. She said: “To this day, I don’t know why they didn’t let me out for the (AA) meeting. If they would have let me out then Steven would have been with me and Teresa would have been alive”. The irony. The thing that she said in an attempt to keep Steven in jail may very well have been the thing that saves him. Like the scene in the movie “Outbreak” where Morgan Freeman tells Dustin Hoffman to move the helicopter, otherwise the plane can’t drop the bomb on its target zone, essentially telling them how to prevent the bomb from being dropped. This changes everything. If the police knew that Teresa would be at Avery’s and then Zipperer’s then this was planned. That’s all they would have needed. That and Colborn (coincidentally) interviews both of them, is missing for over an hour, knows that the Averys are going up north and knows a Sheriff with access to a smelter, not to mention knows the coroner at the morgue if he would need other body parts. This is the best motive around. Better than the ex. Better than Tadych and Bobby raping and killing her. These cops were about to go down like Traci Lords in the 80’s. This is also why in my presentation I ask numerous times if they know the size of the bullet that went through Teresa’s skull. They can calculate the diameter from a partial circle using simple math. Yet they never touched on that. Does anyone know what caliber it was? First off, if the caliber is other than a 22 then Avery is off the hook right off the bat. If it’s another caliber then you can look to see who had a gun like that. But that sentence that Jodi said makes me think that this plan was hatched to save their skins and that this was planned vs. Mr. Zipperer gone mad and them stumbling upon it. Assuming that Jodi’s non-leave decision was not purely coincidence. Thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_EAI2JbUI
GZ and JZ: George and Jason (grandson) have anger issues, correct? Jason was growing pot or busted for drugs? I could have sworn I read that somewhere. Is that true? If he was growing pot on the property then GZ is liable. If the Sheriff took their relative GZ aside and said “I can make this all go away if you help us” and GZ let them use his land then this all falls into place. Again, theorizing. The missing piece is that they need to know that TH is going to be at Avery’s that day. How would they have known that? If they find that out, then they can schedule the TH stop. Bam, they already have the rest. They would be further lucked out by Averys being gone later that week so they could do the planting. Do they go up north like that every weekend? Is that common knowledge in that community? But then why would Colborn call in the plates with Sturm in the background if they already know all this? These are the pieces that don’t make sense. If the cops had this all planned even though their motive is higher ranking than anyone else. The only thing keeping this moving towards the cops vs happenstance is Jodi’s statement. If the call came in that the Zipperers needed to talk to their family cops about “an incident” that happened then when was the shot called for Jodi to not be let out that night? I’m guessing that if Steven was building a fire already and had planned to have people coming over then they knew way before that. Unless he was planning to take Jodi back for the fire after the meeting to see friends or something but I doubt the cops would allow that. Then again, I’ve never been there so I’m asking. Otherwise SA would have been at the police station (with an alibi) to pick her up only to hang his head and do an about face and go home. But TH would have to have been shot around 4pm, the call comes in from GZ, one of the crooked cops told the head dude in charge of the inmate release not to release Jodi for her probably 6 ,7 or 8 pm meeting. That’s almost no time to tell Avery that he needs not to come. Especially with a fire going. When was Avery notified about this? When would he know she wasn’t being picked up? We find that out, we find our motive and killer. If it was the day before or earlier in the day then SA would do something like start a fire and not worry about having to pick Jodi up. Then that goes back to the cops are the one’s who planned this. Help me out. Anyone have anything to add to this? Please?
https://js4.red/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42tud8/zipperer_family_member_makes_12516_mind_blowing/
Nope..... this case solved... coldcasecameron.com .......
ReplyDelete5iKiKeY letter wasn't "sent" anywhere...it was found in lobby of GB Post Office!
ReplyDelete[–]HuNuWutWen
ReplyDeleteI believe that serendipity indeed played a role in TH untimely demise, and MTSO capitalized on her misfortune...
It just dawned on me...The Z family must not observe Halloween, because a mere 4 days later, neither GZ, Jo Ellen Z nor JZ could locate their own front door, from inside their own house...as Huey, Duey and Lewy milled around the front porch, rapping feverishly ...
One would assume that a person could quite readily find the door to their own house...and what is that infernal DING! DONG! ??...jeezus H...does anyone actually believe this bullshit?...
I think GZ awoke from a mid-afternoon drunken stupor, he was drinkin' instead of workin', his alibi whereabouts was never verified(NO, it was not), he was startled by TH coming up the side of the house, she turns, raises her camera, he thinks it is a gun, accidentally shot her, thinking she was an intruder...
He then called his LE connection(life-long buddy) GK..."hey Gene, I fucked up, I really need your help...".....the rest of it falls into place as MTSO holds all the cards...and spare me the "it's TOO complicated, TOO many people involved..." because that is simply not true...GK had access to ALL the "evidence", he had plenty of time to consult with interested persons (DV, TK), and it is my belief that JL planted evidence while AC attempted distraction...everyone else merely did their jobs, turned a blind eye,
GZ and JeZ are provided with their story...JZ wasn't actually there for it, so he doesn't know for sure what went down...but JeZ and GZ sure as fuck do...and look at how they subsequently behave? FFS, these people are totally lost, in their own home? C'mon...
Why won't the Z family answer their door?
Because GK didn't include GZ in the larger plans, that's why... so GZ freaked when he sees the three stooges on the front stoop...and JeZ is just following hubby's lead...GZ was on the phone to GK getting the "story" straight...one look at the nonsense that ultimately transpired and those of us with one iota of common sense can see that these idiots are taking their cues from someone behind the scene ...JeZ can't be sure of anything?...that's what the cops are telling her ...and she is hanging out the bathroom window talking to cops?..WTF is going on in Manitowoc?...GZ comes across as senile or suffering from dementia...none of this behavior passes the smell test...
But nobody gives a shit what we know...all that matters is what KZ can prove...
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5bi42f/after_a_month_on_reddit_my_theory/
HuNuWutWen wrote:
ReplyDeleteGene had Teresa's full set of keys, and her handbag, wallet and whatever else was in the Rav4, he'd had possession of everything since 5 pm, 31st... access to the vehicle was not a problem...
...and Steven's planted blood most likely came from the vial, because Gene was not gonna take a chance on planting blood from Steven's car, or "the rag", or the bathroom sink/floor which he had no idea whether it was contaminated, or whether it was in fact Steven's...could've been Jodi's, or anyone's for that matter...
...the problem with planting the full set of keys afterwards is obvious...
... first of all, it was a noisy bunch of keys, dripping with random DNA, not much good for targeting Steven...imagine how many people would've possibly touched/used those keys ?...Scott B, Ryan, Teresa, TP, god knows who else...,
... but there's no way to sterilize the whole ring of keys and ONLY have Steven's DNA turn up ...how ridiculous would that appear ?... not even these liars would try to float that bullshit past the jury...
... that's why the keys are missing...
... the flyover on the 4th was re-con, they were not searching for the Rav4...they already had the Rav4...
...they were scoping out the best place to stash the Rav4, adjacent ASY...
ThackerLaceyDeJaynes wrote:
Ive always wondered... Is there actual documentation about Kusche being on ASY? Or is this speculation? I only have assumed he was.
HuNuWutWen wrote:
I don't think Kusche ever set foot on ASY, he didn't need to, he directed this entire operation from a distance, the closest he got to any of it was on the evening of the 5th, that little "detour" that Teresa's Rav4 mysteriously took on the way to Madison, that was Gene, "sealing the deal"...he would not leave this critically important detail to an incompetent boob like Andy...remind me, who was it that started this whole thing, with the jailhouse rumor, and the letter ?...yup, these connections run deep...
...conspicuously absent from all of this low-level drama are the principle players...TK, DV, PL...Gene was the go-between, after all, this was his baby,...others, such as Mark R. and KP begged-off early too, the higher-ups stayed away, "arms-length" to avoid even the mere appearance of impropriety...barf...so phony, but effective...classic example of plausible deniability...
...I assume that everyone reading my comments understands the speculative nature of these threads, and my remarks...
..............................................................................................
...I've always been bothered by the seeming absence of microscopic forensic evidence, and no crime scene at ASY, I reasoned that the victim's body was obliterated, elsewhere, in order to conceal the true cause of death, that's why the planters didn't have Teresa's blood, saliva, secretions etc, with which to slam-dunk the conviction
...I still believe this to be the case, but there was just something that felt out of order with all of this evidence ...I now think that the killer did not give up the location of the cremains until they were satisfied that Steven had been implicated, effectively insuring nothing would come back on them... this is why all the physical evidence directly from the Rav4 was childishly "hidden" around Steven's trailer, on the 5th...that's all the evidence they had, at that time...
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7nhd1h/can_you_jimmy_an_electric_door_lock_with_the/
Who was the planner/s of the TH murder story?
ReplyDeleteHuNuWutWen wrote:
I say "The Pencil"... he was Quantico trained, former military, he was conveniently positioned in the heirarchy to act as both liaison to above as well as logistics to wet-work monkeys, his history with the '85 case clearly indicates he was adept at manipulating a narrative.
... during his deposition, Kusche actually scoffed at the DNA evidence that proved Steven's innocence, scoffed at the work of the Crime Lab, "DNA can be faked..."...
... this is a guy who knows how to control a narrative...he is basically stating for the record that he himself is aware of "fake" evidence, and the "faking" of evidence, in order to achieve a result.
... compare him to fuckin' idiot Andy ?..."yup, I gave that thang a real good shake...."...really. Andy ?...did ya ?...
So, what is your theory of who did it? LE? A stranger? Someone else on the property? A friend?
HuNuWutWen wrote:
A small part of me still wants to believe this was an unfortunate accidental shooting by GZ...the main reason for that being Teresa, herself, she simply doesn't seem to have any serious enemies, and she was not embroiled in any tempestuous relationships, Ryan is a nurse, and he was getting his bandaids for free, ya know...SB is a wimp, so not him either...
... the numerical odds of the accidental scenario playing out, at this exact moment in time, all things considered, it's crazy, like a billion to one?...so, nope... I'm now inclined to agree with the idea of an organized snuff job...GK knew people from his past...
... I think this went from GK up to DV up to PL back to DV to GK who handled all the wet-work... I think GK seriously disliked TK, probably because of the fiasco of '85, he felt TK bailed on them, "backstabbed" them all...I still believe GZ was employed in some way, as a lure...
...Andy definitely knew that Steven didn't do this, Andy made a solo visit to Steven"s place, and knowingly left weapons/ammo in Steven's possession...that's not something you do as a Cop, when you're questioning a felon about a possible abduction/murder...
...Andy wouldn't go to GZ without back-up, WHY ?...and it took 3 of them, pounding on the doors for 15 minutes ?...wtf is up with that ?...George was definitely involved in this mess...
...and then there's Lenk and Remiker on the 4th, they too leave the guns/ammo in Steven's possession...and they definitely saw those guns...they knew Steven didn't do this, and they also knew Steven had no way of defending himself against what they were about to do to him...how would Steven know what these guys were plotting ?...should he guess ?...
... when I think of what these people did to Steven and Brendan...
... and for what ?, money ?, not reputation, everyone in town already knew they were fucking corrupt...
"About one week before he was arrested in the slaying of Teresa Halbach, Brendan Dassey threatened someone else with the same fate."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/nation/2016/01/06/statements-could-evidence-dassey-trial/78375934/
[–]MrDoradus
In one of the pre-trial notices KK claimed that in the last week of February 2006 BD "reportedly" (whatever reportedly means in this instance) told one of his classmates "that she better be careful or she could end up like TH".
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Notice-of-Intent-and-Motion-to-Admit-Statements-Motion-in-Limine-Series-II_redacted.pdf
Since it was never used in trial this claim was a work of pure fiction and we can only guess who made it up, or was pressured to do so. As others have said, if anyone was willing to back this claim up it would have been used against BD.
And KK's track record speaks for itself when it comes to "public perception being what it is", so I wouldn't blame anyone that thinks KK made it all up himself.
[–]Kkman1971
The propaganda is incredibly powerful, case in point are the Dateline shows. I watch these all the time because they give you the impression that they really take hard, close, investigative look into interesting cases...... then we are served their shows on SA and BD ...once again, we are left thinking WTF???? Why aren't they asking the real questions we all have????
Thanks to MAM, the Casefiles, and discussions on here, you realize just how powerful the propaganda machine is. From KK's presser and MTSD and WIDOJ in collusion with the press all the way to the Dateline shows. Now it makes me question every show like this.
[–]OliviaD2
Oh, I know... being 'red pilled' is a sad affair...
I actually have a lot of pals who live tweet during dateline.. and sometimes I watch it for the social aspect... but I view it now as fiction.
Watching the Dateline episodes re: this case was another one of many pivotal moments for me, when I had to face the realization that these 'investigative journalism' type shows are nothing of the sort. There are people being paid 6 and 7 figure salaries to interview some of the key players and regurgitate the same old information.
I can read a post on here and see more 'investigation' and 'journalism'!!! So, I can only imagine what the real truth is in some of the other cases!
[–]thed0ngs0ng
I've come to the realization that everything on television is a form of propaganda. Including Netflix. In one form or another it is all designed to shape the way we think, a kind of social conditioning. A kind of mass mind control. I suspect this is why it is called 'programming'. The viewer's minds are being programmed, like a computer.
CONTINUED...
[–]MissDemeanor07
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing what mainstream media can get away with, imo.
[–]OliviaD2
I get all my "real news" from internet sources, many different ones to get a balanced outlook and ones I've learned I can trust. When I see what is 'reported' about on MSM, ala CNN etc, I am shocked at the BS. The only think more shocking is that a lot of people don't realize it is propaganda.
I've read documents from the late 1800s that discuss how gov't factions plan to use the media of the time, when all they had was print; to push agendas and influence the masses. If people aren't familiar with Project Mockingbird, it would be a good thing to research - the CIAs plan to use the media to control the public. While it may have a new name, it is clearly alive and well.
[–]thed0ngs0ng
While KK is a true villian and pos, I worry that MaM focused the attention on him and we've been unable to see past him to the real bad guys. Tom Fallon (AAG) and Peg L (AG). Fallon was the Assistant Attorney General of Wisconsin greatly outranking local district attorney KK. Fallon wrote 88% of the pre trial motions. This conspiracy to frame Steven Avery goes way above KK, all the way up to the WI-AG's office, which is where Fallon's desk is located.
KK and the MTSO are dirty but they couldn't have made this happen alone. The DCI and crime lab were in on it from the start, which means the green light came from the AG herself.
[–]OliviaD2
Excellent point re: bringing up Fallon.. I agree his role has been under-appreciated here.
I suspect he had a big part in orchestrating the cover up with the remains...suggesting getting rid of the local coroner (who would insist on following protocol), and supplying one of his state shills.
Attorney Fallon had a history (that was not exposed until after this trial of 'pressuring ME's" to see things in skull x-rays that weren't there.... and this partially depending on something 'seen' in x-rays of skull fragments.
In fact, Dr. Michael Stier, revealed in a news article that he was pressured by prosecutors to testify that he saw a skull fracture in purported child abuse case when he didn't see one. One of the prosecutors was Tom Fallon.
Interestingly, Dr. Michael Stier was originally assigned as the ME for the TH case, and supposedly did her autopsy. He was replaced for the trial, however, by one of the ME's who supported the prosecutors in the above mentioned case. Perhaps Dr. Stier's tendency toward ethics wasn't going to work well for this case. Mr. Fallon had all the connections to build the proper team to support whatever findings he and LiEslie decided to conjur up.
I agree with you. This case involves corruption that was directed from the top (recall Peg L signed off on all WSCL reports). Naturally the state is fighting tooth and nail to keep this pot from boiling over. I hope I live to see Zellner take them all on in a civil case.. I think the busting up of an entire state criminal cabal would be historic.
I feel some optimism.. and find it fascinating that the current rising up against the deep state and DNC corruption is referred to as "The Great Storm", "The Great Awakening"... the same terminology used to refer to Zellner. I really think a revolution is coming. It won't all happen quickly.. but change is gonna come.
[–]rush2head
That's right Fallon was the one who derail Dassey 7th district court.He used his political ties.This case is tainted from the state and PL and Fallon were the mastermind of this conspiracy!!!corruption runs mighty deep in Wisconsin!!
[–]bonnieandy2
KK is the front man and chief fall guy, the real evil people are slightly hidden behind the fat wanker! Like GK or Vogel. There are loads more, but he wanted to be the front of camera man, in the limelight while everything was going his way!
Comment on the dispatch video:
ReplyDeleteBy ingineous:
"....1.THE POLICE HAD THE AVERY'S UNDER HEAVY SURVEILLANCE 2.FOR MONTHS THEY WAITED FOR HIM TO SLIP UP...THEN THEY SAW THE COLLATERAL ENTER THE PROPERTY. 3.THE OFFICER THAT SAW THE "ASSET" ENTER THE PREMISES...TAKE PICTURES OF THE VAN THEN LEAVE, CALLED HIS SUPERIOR FOR ADVISEMENT. 4. THE "BOSS"* THEN INSTRUCTS THE OFFICER TO FOLLOW THE "ASSET" AND THEN STOP THE "ASSET". 5.WITHIN 5 TO 10 MINUTES, THE "BOSS" AND OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS WHO ARE TIED DIRECTLY TO THE $36MIL CIVIL SUITE CONCLUDED THAT THE "ASSET" IS WORTH DISPOSAL. #COLLATERALDAMAGE . 6. THE "ASSET" WHICH IS NOW WORTH $36 MILLION IS ORDERED TO BE EXECUTED AND DISPOSED ON THE AVERY PROPERTY. 7. THE OFFICER THEN SHOOTS THE "ASSET" AND PLACES HER BODY IN THE TRUNK TIL FURTHER NOTICE. 8. THE ASSET IS THEN CREMATED AND SECURED TIL THE OPPORTUNE TIME/WINDOW TO PLACE EVIDENCE BECOMES AVAILABLE. 9.SURVEILLANCE REPORTS THAT THE AVERY'S ARE LEAVING THE PROPERTY AND THE "ASSET" IS THEN DISPOSED OF IN BURN PIT AND OTHER AREAS OF THE PROPERTY. 10.THE RAV4 IS STAGED ON THE ACCESS ROAD. 11.A LICENSE PLATE REHEARSAL WAS DONE TO MAKE SURE DISPATCH KNOWS WHAT TO DO UPON SHOWTIME. 12.THE EX IS NOTIFIED, TOLD A FABRICATED STORY AND PAID "X" AMOUNT TO ASSIST IN DIRECTING FOCUS ON STEVEN AVERY VIA SEARCH PARTY. 13.CAMERA and DIRECTIONS WAS GIVEN TO THE CORRUPT WOMAN WHO SUPPOSEDLY WAS GUIDED BY GOD TO THE RAV4. 14.AVERY IS ARRESTED AND PAINTED AS BEING GUILTY, EVEN BEFORE INVESTIGATIONS FULLY COMMENCE. 15.WITHOUT PROPER WARRANTS...THE PROPERTY WAS QUARANTINED AND ALL DNA LACKING EVIDENCE WAS PLANTED. I COULD SAY MORE BUT...ZELLNER WILL DO THE SAME AND MORE. O BY THE WAY... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SWEAT DNA...AND FORENSICS LOOK FOR THE SIMPLEST FORMS OF IDENTIFICATION BEFORE DNA..AND THATS FINGERPRINTS...THEYRE NO FINGERPRINTS IN OR ON THE RAV4. I WANT TO SEE THE DETAILED SO CALLED DNA TESTS THAT WERE DONE TO FIND SO CALLED SWEAT DNA ETC."
[–]RiversidePrincess[S]
ReplyDeleteJust know, I'm not being snarky :)
I think you're referring to this:
Wisconsin State Legislation 895.4(9)(a) The state shall reimburse a state officer or state employee for reasonable attorney fees and costs incurred by the officer or employee in connection with a John Doe proceeding under s. 968.26 (2)arising from the officer's or employee's conduct in the performance of official duties if all the following apply: 1. The officer or employee was acting within the scope of his or her employment. 2. The officer or employee is not convicted of a crime arising from the conduct that is the subject of any criminal complaint issued under s. 968.26 (2) (d).
Here is some expert advice on indemnification:
Is a public official or employee indemnified by their municipality against personal liability for all of their actions while an official or employee for a municipality?
No. State law only requires a municipality to pay any judgment for damages and costs entered against a municipal official or employee for acts performed within the scope of their employment. Under Wis. Stat. sec. 895.46, municipal officials and employees will be indemnified by the municipality for negligent acts taken within the "scope of their employment." This provision has been construed to mean that the official or employee's action must have been taken, in some measure, to serve the municipal employer. Olson v. Connerly, 156 Wis.2d 488, 457 NW 2d. 479 (1990).
Once the determination is made that the official or employee was acting in the scope of employment, indemnification may apply even if the act taken is outside what the employer may have desired. Graham v. Sauk Prairie Police Comm., 915 F.2d. 1085 (7th Cir. 1990).
Indemnification may also extend to cases where punitive damages are assessed. Kolar v. County of Sangamo, 756 F.2d. 564 (7th Cir. 1985).
Why then did Kocourek's lawyers want his home owners insurance to cover any potential damages from the lawsuit?
"If the allegations of the complaint were proven, State Farm would not be obligated to defend or indemnify Thomas K. Kocourek because the homeowner's policy does not apply to damages that arise out of the insured's business or profession; neither does it apply to his intentional acts."
Do you not think that he suspected the county's insurance would only cover the compensatory damages, but not the punitive damages?
Aren't punitive damages intended to be a punishment and deterrent to such behavior? What do we have to show that their insurance would've paid for this portion?
Nada, because they usually don't, or else it wouldn't serve as a deterrent.
An example is:
DeleteAuto insurance.
When you fuck up or are negligent, you're likely covered.
But if you run into someone intentially or with malice, you're not.
See? That's the difference.
Clearing up who was being sued for what. by RiversidePrincess in SuperMaM
The $6million figure is just an estimate that comes from my experience working for a civil litigation firm many, many years ago.
There are a lot of factors involved in what the County's insurance would cover, plus it would've depended on whether or not SA took the matter to trial as to how much he'd potentially get. Things were looking very positive for the plaintiff when this murder occurred.
Generally, civil lit attorneys will take the matter to trial if it's a slam-dunk case with plenty of documentation and it's worth the attorney's time, or if the client insists in order to prove a point.
Most lawyers won't even bother unless there is substantial proof of these three things:
Damages
Liabilty
Coverage
Fuckups and negligence is one thing....maliciously and intentionally depriving someone's liberty and Constitutional rights is another.
I think it's clear that SA had proof to argue the latter, which is where the personal punitive damages come in. They weren't suing the County for punitive damages, just TK and DV....and I doubt that portion would be covered by the County's insurers.
And TK knew this, as he'd consulted with attorneys and his personal insurer. I posted a link to State Farm's response.
He was also trying to find an angle not to have to answer questions posed in the depositions, but I think less than a week before TH went missing, the judge denied his request. Why was he trying to avoid answering the questions?
Plus, I don't know what MC's policy coverage was in 1985, etc.
Insurance companies look for any angle to pay out the minimum, if anything. These boys were potentially exposed to bankruptcy.
SA and his attorneys definitely seemed keen and ready a trial, which can be risky, but can also result in larger payouts.
But SA's civil lawyers seemed very confident and competent. There's huge variances in the competency of lawyers, but I would gladly retain those two. B&S, not necessarily....
I'm by no means an expert, but this is my prediction from experience. Is that what you were asking?
ETA: So much of winning a court case comes down to how good your representation is, and I think Walt & Co were pretty damn good. Probably a lot better than MC's corporate lawyers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuperMaM/comments/5h5tco/clearing_up_who_was_being_sued_for_what/
[–]RiversidePrincess[S]
ReplyDeleteKnowing someone has no bearing on being in a position to personally defend their character, which you were doing? Ok then.
We just see things differently, and that's ok :)
There is evidence that SA committed the crime, but every single bit of it could have been planted and manipulated by people that were likely desperate, people with motive.
There is also a shit-ton of facts that are being disregarded, here's some of it:
There were approx 9 people near or with SA during alleged attack.
No evidence of a crime-scene clean-up (except cleaning a tranny fluid or alleged blood stain off the garage floor).
Timing. Completely convenient for MTSO; totally inconvenient for SA, who had finally won his freedom, had a girl he loved, and was on the verge of becoming a millionaire.
No motive for SA to kill TH, a nice person similar in size to himself.
Urgent motives for the defendants (TK especially): Get the heat off of them and on to SA, end the civil suit, restore faith from the community, avoid possible follow-on suits from GA's victims.
Likelihood of surveillance of SA during this period.
SA's immediate reaction - TK was setting him up.
SA's staunch, continual denial of the crime, and general openness/confusion/cooperation when dealing with media and LE.
Reasonably non-nefarious possibilities behind SA's phone calls and advert handling.
MTSO's continuous presence in the investigation, even after they publicly stated they would be handing it over to Calumet.
JL & AC clearly lying about the key. If you deny that the coins didn't move after vigorous shaking, you're just being silly.
KP's attempts to claim ignorance on the GA report, appearance of distancing himself from the early investigation of TH, caught out lying on Dr Phil, statement about killing SA.
MTSO's access to SA's blood & DNA.
Directives from LE to forensically try to put SA in the house or garage.
MTSO's overly thorough response to ANY adult missing person's report, especially after only a few days of no contact: Rummaging around her house - rounding up her most personal items, collecting examples of her DNA prematurely, flyovers, etc.
Declaring SA a murder suspect within what, an hour or two?
So many inconsistencies in the reports, and from the original witness statements.
TH's remains destroyed to such a degree that virtually no evidence could possibly remain to show manner of death (in an open bonfire, over a few hours, with multiple people nearby?!?)
LE manipulated and sacrificed the life of BD to secure their agenda.
KK so much as admitting the key was planted + shitting himself in court about the deleted voicemails.
Same MO
Similar accusations
Same department investigating
Some of the same players
Same ridiculous timeline
Same biased court system
Plenty of possible witnesses
Same guy they'd fkd over to an unthinkable degree once before.
And that's not even all of it.