How Do Locals Feel About Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey?

Avery support rally in June, 2019
April 23, 2019

Justice4Kris wrote:

That this post is not on the top of the "hot" TTM posts is disturbingly telling. I live in this area and all that I can say is that if you don't plan to attend this rally or strongly promote it, we will never see change. I've put up flyers in Manitowoc and Calumet counties and the general consensus from the people I've spoken with is fear. They are afraid to stand against these corrupt officials, they are afraid of being targeted, their kids being further targeted; and they haven't a clue that there are many of us who have never stopped fighting for the release of these innocent men. It broke my heart actually: they're imprisoned by the very people appointed to serve and protect them. I tried telling one woman who said, "oh, I can't be seen at that." that we are showing up so the people CAN rise, so they see and show these corrupt bastards that we the people are standing in support of smashing their lies to Oblivion. Now all we need is to actually SHOW UP. There is only one thing that Brendan, Steven and Zellner need and that is to rise to your feet and let the world know we are not going away until their lies are exposed and these men are free. The Avery's live with these bastards watching them daily. They need our support. They've carried the weight of this massive corruption without any one of us protecting them, and now it's time to let them know that we are more than typists behind computers: we are strong and brilliant people who demand justice for our fellow citizens. It's time to rise, people. Please make the trip, show yourselves and stand proud that you've never given up fighting against injustice.

My Wisconsin visit and the local perspective (self.TickTockManitowoc)
by OhioBigMac
October 3, 2017

While in town for a bucket-list Lambeau Field Packers game, I took it upon myself to make my way to the home of my MAM obsession via as many breweries and wineries as possible (also an obsession). I must admit that it was a bit surreal after spending so many hours studying countless images and documents. Somehow I seemed to know where things were without ever being there before or needing a map. The most amazing thing to me was the local perspective. While some folks would allow me to voice my opinion, not a single person I spoke with could understand how I could believe Steve or Brendan are victims of injustice and completely innocent of Theresa’s death. Not a single person I spoke with was able to watch the entire MAM series and all seemed awkwardly frustrated by the show. How could I have a complete 180 degree perspective from them? Not even defending whether or not Steve or Brendan are upstanding citizens but whether or not they are MURDERERS; which is so clear to me that they are not. No fence-sitters that I could find. They think I’m crazy and I feel the same about them. What could be the reason for the huge disparity? Is it how the information was fed to us? Is it because they lived it each day as it slowly unfolded and gained knowledge solely from the media? Is it because I was introduced to it initially through binge-watching a docuseries with organized information only after the fact? Is my sampling of opinions too small? Too much beer? It is very confusing and scary to me.

[–]ThorsClawHammer

Is it because they lived it each day as it slowly unfolded and gained knowledge solely from the media?

I'd think that could be a big part of it. The press conference is referred to a lot but keep in mind, for those in the area that was simply the culminating event (at least for Steve, for Brendan it was all at once).

For months the prosecution was sure to release anything to the media that sounded incriminatory even if it turned out not to be. Like blood being found in multiple buildings on the property (who cares if none was the victim's right?), or testing the dog poop for human DNA, making sure to tell everyone they were bringing in an expert from the Jeffrey Dahmer case so they will associate SA with him, etc.

For those who thought he may still be innocent after all that negative press, I'm sure the press conference took care of that.

[–]hollieluluboo

They're probably just saturated with all the negative attention to the county. Many of them are related to someone who either works for the police or courts.

[–]boblablaugh

Many of them are related to someone who either works for the police or courts.

This is the answer. I lived in a small town in Wisconsin that wasn't too far away and that is how it is. There are a few big families and everyone is related or knows everyone else.

[–]AlaskaDreams

I spent most of my life in Wisconsin and I remember the nonstop Avery talk and news coverage of 2006-07. I had been gone for 8 years when MaM came out, and I was as horrified as you were. I was disgusted to find the same attitudes you describe when I go back home and talk to people about it--they're guilty, dammit, and you must be stupid to believe a movie. It's a unique and unpleasant combination of provincial mindset, defensiveness about being "taken to task" and embarrassed by the filmmakers, and pure Kratzian denial. I'm not from a provincial part of WI...but I sure do see the belligerent, willful ignorance of small-town Wisconsin on display, even farther south in the state.

[–]gmalaurel at reddit wrote:

I live in Cal Co also, and have been fearful since I saw this unfold in 2005. When I saw that no one in the state was going to stop LE from their mishandling of their "investigation", I realized it was a much larger problem than just on the local level. I've been in close proximity to some of the players, having worked for a local attorney who has since retired, and their arrogance is just nauseating. I've seen first hand, not from this case, their mishandling of evidence, and twisting comments in statements to fit their narrative. Disgusting! My inner being shakes whenever I get near LE out here.

[–]T31N1T at reddit wrote:

Long time lurker, first time commenter, former resident of that place, non native. Family and friends here cheering all of Reddit, Zellner and everyone else who is uncovering all the uncharred bones left in the closets of the good ol' boys "CLUB". Where citizens are not allowed to question the authoritah! Welcome to Wisconsin... abandon all logic. But if y'all are gonna go digging up some skeletons....we might as well help. Much LOVE to SA who is the one who's gonna bring these motherfuckers down!!! #GAME #ON

A Manitowoc local's perspective 

by justanother_thought

I have lived in Manitowoc my whole life and I am right in the middle of this drama. In fact during the first SA arrest in '85 my neighbors at both ends of the street I live on were - get this - Sheriff Tom Kocourek and Penny Beerntsen. What is so weird is that today I ran into Ken Pieterson. I don't know him personally so I didn't say anything to him, but I sure would like to ask him a few questions about the "Making a Murderer" film.

I, like most of my friends and acquaintances in this city, was satisfied with the convictions of SA and BD. At the time - reading the local newspaper and TV coverage- I had no quarrel with the evidence and was convinced that SA was the killer of TH. I thought like all of the rest of us in Manitowoc that justice was done. I read the Griesbach book about the railroad job that Tom Kocourek and Dennis Vogel perpretrated on SA and had a revelation about the corruption of the Sheriffs Dept. in our county. I would see Kocourek and his wife out eating dinner occasionally and wondered how he could live with himself. 

Then came Making a Murderer. I thought I would watch it to see how the film handled the way my local sheriff and DA took part in this injustice. WOW!! I couldn't stop watching. It took me just three days over Christmas to see the things Kratz and all of the others did that we never really knew was going on at the time.

I was immediately converted to the belief in the innocence of BD. As for SA, I'm not sure if he did it or not. I tend to think his is innocent but am sure that the jury didn't have enough proof to find him guilty.

What I find interesting is that just about everyone in this town doesn't want to believe that BD or SA are innocent. Most don't want to watch it and could care less about SA and BD. They think that there is no way that the MCSD could do anything as sinister as plant evidence. I am in the distinct minority about this.

I suppose most locals don't want to think they could be living in a county where the law is so carelessly applied. I wonder if other redditers live here and have similar experiences with their friends and family?

[–]aero1310 2 points 1 month ago

I live west of Manitowoc in Appleton. Been following this since the series came out. I've brought it up many times and came to a conclusion old people don't care and its hard for them to change their mind once they made a decision.

I was about 17-18 when this all occurred. (It's crazy since that Halloween occurred on a Monday, I remember delivering newspaper and an old dude offered me a beer while everyone was trick or treating lol.) At the time there was no doubt in my mind I thought SA and BD were guilty once they announced the "confession." I also thought at the time what kind of dumbass would confess to something like that and every little detail all the way down to raping her, it really must of ate him alive, like you really have to accept that you will spend your whole life in jail by confessing something of that nature.

Now come 10 years later and I learn that "confession" was not the confession I imagined where BD came to the police station and said hey here is what happened. My mind has literally been blown away by this documentary having been hearing all about the story around the time it happened and not really following it except the key words like missing person, homicide, rape, murder, confession.

Not once did I really see or hear anything in the media about the defense side. What I'm trying to get at here is most of the public at the time, before social media, did not pay attention or scrutinize over every detail of this case. They just saw the key words and went along.

Everyone tends to believe when the state and FBI are involved, that means you can trust them. I always thought up till now that DNA and forensic evidence was 100% pure and true, never thought the people doing the testing weren't very professional in doing so.

Off topic but people around here have good style and haircuts. I think the majority of that film caught everyone in their 40's+ that are still living in the 80's. And that is like real deepwoods wisconsin accent right there lol. Usually I don't really notice the accent, but definitely heard that accent in the documentary.

[–]Nosidasil 6 points 1 month ago

I am from the Stevens Point WI area (just found out RH was born here and went to UWSP college here too, and we're the same age!) and I agree with all the other "locals" perspectives on how people are stubborn about believing SA and BD are guilty.

I watched MaM a month ago and can clearly see how unjust their trials were! Now, I'm not 100% convinced they're innocent, but I am 100% convinced that LE and other officials planted evidence to secure a conviction!

I've talked to my family about some of the things in MaM, and they (especially my Mom) don't even want to hear about it! They've totally bought into the media talk about it (who are all still firmly in the guilty camp), and also just really don't even want to entertain the idea that some of the police and officials are corrupt!

I asked my Mom to watch the doc and she said "no, I'm not interested" probably because she's afraid it could change her mind! I think it is a common reaction to want to deny that someone in authority did something wrong.

Another example of that thinking is........Just recently a Dr. in our community was charged with sexual assault of some (7 I think) patients. At first the reaction on social media was that "no way would a Dr do that, they must be lying!" I know he IS guilty because my bff is one of them, plus i had one very strange and uncomfortable appt. with him too! Then during the next week more than 13 additional victims came forward, and I think people's opinions have changed!!

I just wanted to give my perspective and opinion on how locals (and others) have a hard time believing or even entertaining the idea that ANY authority figure can break the law.

[–]CorkyMel 105 points 1 month ago

I'm in Calumet county. I live about 5 miles from Hilbert and the vast majority of people I talked to around here are in complete denial. They watched the trial and that's enough. I've talked to quite a few who continue to insist that SA is " guilty as sin" and even that he raped Penny Beerntsen. No amount of evidence will convince them otherwise . It's really disheartening.

I will say that the younger the viewer the more open they are to believing  that SA was set up.

Brendan's case is a bit different. The concensus seems to be that he got screwed because he knew/saw something or at worst, covered up his uncles actions.

Full disclosure : I never personally met Teresa but we had mutual friends. I have met Mike Halbach socially a couple times.

[–]Jmystery1 13 points 1 month ago*

Yep I hear same thing that they made a mistake and should of never let him out in the first place and he raped Penny and they are mad at police not for setting up but for letting him out.

I also hear this comment, why would they set him up when trial cost millions of dollars.

[–]lmogier 3 points 1 month ago

Attitudes like this always remind me of Niemöller's quote:

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . .

Martin Niemöller

[–]JPinLFK 5 points 1 month ago

Calumet County Represent! That's where I grew up too, but I've moved away. Some of my friends and my dad have bit roles in MaM. Personally, I'm good with MaM up until the evidence planting in the 2005 case, I still think that is quite speculative, with the exception of the key in the bedroom. That looks suspicious as hell.

Even with that skepticism, there still are a lot of jerks and asshats exposed for who they are, and the 1985 case was clearly a miscarriage of justice. I can't believe Sheriff Petersen from Manitowoc still won't apologize for the 1985 fiasco. Totally agree that Brendan got railroaded. Lot's of things I'd like to see changed, lots of takeaways. Haven't found things to be all that different with the system elsewhere though, still lots of issues in other parts of the country. I still like the seal / motto of Calumet county..."We Extend the Calumet to All Mankind", even if that is viewed sarcastically in light of MaM.

[–]NAmember81 7 points 1 month ago

What's so elaborate about it. A couple cops plant the evidence while all the others don't ask questions and file it as "evidence", done.

I had pot planted on me with 4 beloved "good cops" of the community in the same room witnessing it. One cops went to the evidence locker and got just enough weed to put in a drug testing kit to test positive for THC and the "good cops" proceeded to arrest and book me acting like nothing out of the ordinary happened.

When I told this story afterwards everyone though "there's no way 5 cops all worked together to plant weed on you". It just takes one cop to get the ball rolling and every other cop goes along with it. If they dare speak out about it they'll face backlash.

People started to believe my story 3 years later when the cop that planted the weed on me got caught by the ILLINOIS drug task force cooking meth while in uniform and on duty.

[–]knowjustice 2 points 1 month ago

I'm sorry you had this experience. I was set up by my ex and his employer, a small city in Michigan and spent six years in the state and federal courts trying to resolve the false accusations and recover the significant amount of money lost because of this nonsense.

I lost most of my long-time friends because they had the same reaction as did yours. "This does not happen in America. You did something to trigger these accusations and deserve to be punished." Mind you, I was a successful professional with no criminal background (I admit, I received two speeding tickets over the course of my 37-year driving history, LOL) and many of these individuals had been close friends for 40+ years.

Ironically, the same LE administrators and city officials covered up their missteps eight months earlier after one of their LEO's shot and killed his wife the night before she was planning to escape her abusive marriage. There were two people who knew of her intentions, a close friend and the police chief. Her friend met with the chief two days before she was murdered to inform him she was planning her escape from her abusive marriage and was fearful for her life.

I think it's safe to assume her personal confidant didn't tell her spouse of her intentions. Therefore, the only other person with the knowledge was the police chief; he had to be the informant.

Following the murder/suicide, the police chief told the press he met with the victim's friend two days before her murder. However, he publicly denied they discussed her intent to leave the following Monday. Additionally he told the press there was nothing in his officer's past or in his demeanor to indicate the officer was capable of the crime. Really? Apparently, the chief never reviewed his employees' city cell phone records.

The officer's work cell phone records tell a very different story. For weeks if not months before her murder, the officer was calling his wife over 100 times per day on his city-paid cell phone during work time. In addition to ignoring the fact his employee was wasting work time making personal calls on his city-paid cell phone, the police chief apparently lacked any knowledge of the major warnings signs of an abusive, controlling partner.

The fact these clowns colluded with my ex, a city department head to falsely accuse me of stalking my ex's house eight months after the murder/suicide is indicative they believed they were immune to any outside scrutiny; " If we got away with covering up our role in a murder, we can get away with anything!" To date - - more than eight years after her murder - - not one state or federal agency has made any effort to investigate the city's role in either case.

Anyone who still believes law enforcement is incapable of engaging in conspiracies and cover-ups is in denial or extremely naïve. The members of this nation's Just Us system believe they are above the laws they took an oath to uphold. The need for reform is long past due.

[–]Bhtx 3 points 1 month ago

Have your spoke to any of your mutual friends about the case? Did anyone know RH?

[–]CorkyMel 29 points 1 month ago

A little. I was talking to 2 friends right after I watched mam and they said the won't watch it and don't even want to think bout it. Its too painful. I think Its hard to be objective when the case is so personal. Its not a random victim on TV to them. I wouldn't ask anyone who was close to TH about it. That would be an ass hole move.

[–]Jmystery1 12 points 1 month ago

Exactly what I get from family members I grew up in Kewaunee county and you just don't talk about it and basically was told from my parents we are suppose to ban the movie or even ban Netflix but my parents couldn't ban Netflix. They absolutly refuse to watch movie. It's forbidden in their mind.

[–]redeyesofnight 32 points 1 month ago

Actually, just tonight I had a similar experience. I live in Green Bay, and I was at dinner with my immediate family and the topic came up. The opinion was mixed, with no question about BD's innocence, but a bit more divisiveness about SA. I was presented quickly with "Tell me you don't think he's innocent. He is definitely guilty." One interesting fact came up that I didn't realize though... Apparently a not too distant relative was the foreman of the jury for the SA trial. I tell you, I SURE have a few questions for them, but I have not been in real contact in years, and I highly doubt they would appreciate the intrusion.

[–]axelbuddy042187 69 points 1 month ago

I live in Minnesota, and I am currently on a job where one of the guys working with us is from Manitowoc. I asked him about SA and BD when I first found out where he was from and he said "I'm 100% certain they did it I remember the media coverage from the time. That film is just a hatchet job after police." Pretty much what you said. I'm the few weeks we have been working together I have been every once in a while bringing up the things in the doc and that I have found out later, ie the planted blood, planted key, bones in 3 different locations. Each time I would say something like "do you remember when they talked about (whatever) during the case?" He would always say no and it would allow me to give him some of the info he was missing. Last weekend he watched the doc with his family and is now very disturbed by what happened. He didn't say for sure but I think he may be related to or close friends with some of the people mentioned based off of comments he has made.

[–]wakeupeh 11 points 1 month ago

Very nice and gentle approach to trying to wake someone up from their "deep sleep". Slow and steady. It is difficult to abandon all those preconceived beliefs and open yourself to the truth. It shakes our foundation and makes us begin to question things. Some people will never open their minds, as it would necessitate for them to admit they're not ALWAYS right :) Critical thinking has become a disappearing art among the masses. Thankfully, there are some (however few) in the media today asking the right questions. Too bad the MCSD didn't ten years ago.


[–]mzmarymac 8 points 1 month ago

I grew up in a village in Illinois that is known for its corrupt law enforcement and government. We had one of our mayors go to prison and just a long history of corruption, mob ties, etc... Now, if you were to ask people in the town about their police force, you would get a mixed bag of responses, all depending upon their relationship with such force. You see, in my town, it was all about who you knew, who you were related to, etc... Drop a name on a traffic stop and you'll probably get out of it. So along with the corruption, comes lots of perks for the community because they feel safe in their town. Out of towners and undesirables may suffer at the hands of these guys, but not us. So there was a sense of acceptance and almost appreciation for these guys.

God help you, however, if you ever decided to go against the village though, you were done. If you were to not grease the correct palms, your business enterprises were done. They had ultimate authority over who lived there, who did business there and even who visited there. Much of this centered on race and ethnicity. If you weren't the right race or ethnicity, good luck getting a job there, a home there, or even safely walk the streets there. But the locals loved it. It allowed them to live in "peace" in their own enclave.

So government corruption is a relative thing. The general public does not want to go against the grain because they don't want the people with the power to have a reason to go after them. They want to stick with the status quo, just go on living their lives and really not think all too much about it. Who wants to make waves? Who has any real time for that? It is far easier to just put your head down and move along.

So Manitowoc is not alone in this. This type of behavior goes on all over the country in all kinds of communities. Likely across the world. It is simple human nature to allow people to provide things for the community and not ask a lot of questions.

[–]Refukulator 6 points 1 month ago

Grew up there, left there a long time ago. On my street alone was Tom Kocourek, Tom Janda and Scott Tadych's grandparents. There was also a family named Vogel for a little while too.

I have personal ties to MTSO, many of them know my family. I have personally benefitted from this.

Manitowoc is a predominantly white, blue collar, Roman Catholic kind of town. Most of the factories have gone, their skeletons having been demolished or are being gentrified into artists lofts.

It was a great place to grow up, but it's just too slow for me. I can assure you that before MaM came out, I was just like all of the rest of the locals in believing that SA was guilty as sin, and was right where he belongs.

Now, I'm not so sure. I'm on the fence. Brendan certainly got railroaded and deserves a new trial. With Zellner on board and so zealously of the belief that SA is innocent, I have to give this some serious consideration.

I know first hand how the cops operate around those parts, are they capable of doing what they've been accused of here ?

Hmmmm.......

[–]JJacks61 3 points 1 month ago

Unless you grow up in a small town and are exposed to what the good ol boys do, it can be hard to accept that any corruption goes on. And it often goes right into the Judicial Chambers.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

Grew up in Manty, as well. Wonderful place in the '50's and 60's. I had classmates who became LEO's, no education and certainly not members of LHS National Honor Society.

I believe it's very likely institutionalized corruption is present in many LE agencies, particularly in smaller communities. Small agencies have far more control over hiring practices than do major metro LE agencies as is evident from the current Manitowoc County LE employee rosters. LE appears to be a family affair in the County.

My take from the series had little to do with the parties' innocence or guilt. What I found most enlightening about the film was the blatant and pervasive incompetence and misconduct repeatedly demonstrated by the Manitowoc and Calumet County "Just Us" system. Is it unique to Wisconsin, hell no. It happens everywhere.

And that is what I found is most disturbing - - if this could happen not once, not twice, but three times in 20 years in my hometown, I can't begin to imagine what actually occurs daily throughout our nation in the name of justice. Reform is long overdue.

[–]Refukulator 2 points 1 month ago*

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've had first hand experience with MTSO, and although it was a long, long time ago, I doubt that much has changed around there.

Manitowoc was no doubt a booming place in the 50's and 60's, a lot of white flight from Milwaukee and Chicago helped fuel that growth. My parents moved to Manitowoc in the early 60's, from Milwaukee, the first home that they rented was next to Vic Tadych's supermarket. My father founded a very successful manufacturing company which is still in business today.

Vic was ST's grandfather. That's how small Manitowoc is. Tom Kocourek lived on my street, I remember when his home was built. The Janda's also lived on that same street. I have a family tie to the MTSO and one of the main characters in this story.

In short, this really hits home for me, even though it hasn't been home for well over 30 years now.

I'm still on the fence, every time I lean toward's SA's guilt, something else comes up that gives me reason to consider that he may not be guilty of the crime. My gut tells me that BD did see something, but it didn't go down the way he told Fassbender and Weigert. Either way BD's case is a travesty, just the fact alone that he wasn't properly represented should be grounds for a new trial.

[–]knowjustice 2 points 1 month ago

Agreed, both cases were travesties of our justice system. Glad to hear your family's business is still thriving. Whenever I return and drive past Mirro, it breaks my heart knowing how many families lived fairly prosperous lives thanks to the old Mirro. Once Newell-Rubbermaid acquired the company, I knew it was simply a matter of time before the company would close.

You and I, like so many others, left and never returned. Many of my childhood friends were the great-grandchildren of the early industrialists and professional families of Manitowoc. After acquiring an advanced education, most never returned. As such, their families' businesses were eventually sold to big conglomerates only to be broken up, divested, and eventually closed.

For those who chose to stay, acquiring a public-sector job was a gift. Not many people who have a secure job with good benefits in a community with so few options will risk their personal financial security to become whistleblowers. By 2005, Manitowoc was in an economic downward spiral, which continues unabated to this day.

Desperate times result in desperate actions.

[–]IjsKind 4 points 1 month ago

Thanks for your perspective, it's interesting to hear about locals point of view. I have a friend who grew up in the area and refuses to watch the show because she doesn't want to give "that family" any more publicity. I was disappointed in her closed mindedness. So thank you for being the kind of person who can remain open minded and willing to change your outlook when presented with need evidence, regardless of if SA is guilty or not.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

My reply to those who have expressed similar sentiments as did your friend (and tell him/her you received this advice from a former Ship);

1) The film depicts the justice system, the individuals could have been anyone.

2) Had law enforcement, the PA, and the court acted professionally and responsibly, there would be no documentary. The filmmakers intent was to highlight the Justice system, not the defendants.

3) It has happened to me....and it can happen to you. This film is a gift. It demonstrates just how easily people with the power and authority to do so can impact a person's life, warranted or not.

~ LHS Alumnus, Class of '68

[–]WiretapStudios 55 points 1 month ago 

I don't know much about this site or the owner or support all their views, but I stumbled on this site Photography Is Not A Crime (they video police and post stories about corrupt / violent police) the other day. I read three stories alone that blew my hair back and I felt depressed when I thought about them the next few days.

One video showed these two cops tackling a guy (essentially for no reason), they get him on the ground, and the one cops gun goes off and shoots the other cop. The shot cop then starts yelling that he was shot and for the guy to drop his gun (the guy pinned to the ground), the guy says he doesn't have a gun, and the two cops just unload into him.

Another was a few kids jaywalking in Austin, TX. There is a police barrier blocking the street, so it's not even really a street at the time. The cops run over full speed and slam these kids against the wall, and when the other kids get upset, some of them get tackled too. For JAYWALKING.

I'd like to thing these cops will be punished, but in the follow-up stories I read about other cases, the cops usually get off with zero repercussions.

[–]Steffinily 15 points 1 month ago

Yeah, I live near Fresno, California. And recently there was a story on the front page of reddit talking about an ex (or active I'm not sure) cop said something about the county police are going to kill him and they're corrupt or something. Then he died in a fire (I think). I didn't read too much into it so I don't remember much details. I remembered not being surprised.

[–]DermottBanana 21 points 1 month ago

As a local, coming to terms with the idea that your local cops are dishonest is very unsettling. It's easier to lock into the mindset that "outsiders" are telling "lies" about your city officials. Because if you tell yourself that, you can sleep better at night.

The alternative has two scary consequences.

First, you discover you are not safe. Because if they could lie to convict someone who didn't do what they're accused of, they could accuse you, or those close to you. You're in danger. Which leads to the second, even scarier thought.

You have to do something about it. Maybe not alone. Maybe in conjunction with others in town. But the burden of fixing the problem falls to you and those around you. And these fuckers are scary. Fixing it, reclaiming your home, is not an easy path.

Yeah. It's much easier to tell yourself and your friends it's a bunch of out-of-town Wisconsin-haters who've come to tell lies about you. Much easier. Much safer.

[–]wakeupeh 3 points 1 month ago

Interesting though, I believe it was as many as 5 - 7 jurors that initially found the evidence lacking and would liked to have voted for his innocence if only on account of reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, there was a least one juror (related to someone in the Sheriff's office) who had his mind made up and persuaded the others. Some it is said, feared there would be repercussions for themselves and their families if they did not go along. I doubt such tactics would have persuaded me, but then again I was not the one being threatened and therefore would never pass judgement on those jurors. However, this should be investigated as well. No one juror should have such power to ensure a conviction.

[–]basilarchia 24 points 1 month ago

Did Kocurek and Beernsten know each other then? You seem to be aware that they both lived on the same street. Is this the kind of neighborhood where everyone knows everyone else?

[–]Thewormsate 19 points 1 month ago

Yes, they were neighbor's back in 85.

[–]justanother_thought[S] 2 points 1 month ago

The Griesbach book tells how they were friends and Kocourek was determined to get the rapist irregardless of who really was really did it. The MAM film does a good job of exposing his hubris.

[–]basilarchia 25 points 1 month ago

That makes Dave Begotka's version of what he says he saw in 1985 even more strange.

[–]knowjustice 2 points 1 month ago

Former local here. After having the pleasure of being on the receiving end of public corruption in Michigan, I concur with your observation people don't want to believe the justice system is (IMO) broken beyond repair because we have been taught these are the folks we can trust. If we can't trust our local LEO's and officers of the court, who can we trust?

I also concur with your observation it is likely impossible to fix our justice system. Lawyers make the laws (state legislatures and Congress), lawyers enforce the laws (prosecutors), and lawyers determine the punishment (judges). Everyone of them profits by maintaining a broken system.

[–]Altwolf 1 point 7 days ago

Judges do not have to be lawyers or even know anything about the law - in a number of states judges are given the job through public elections. One would hope that voters would recognize that a judge should have SOME understanding of law, but this has not turned out to always be the case.

Also, politicians write laws. There is no need for a politician to have been a lawyer or know anything about the law. And there are many who are completely ignorant of the basic tenants of the law. That is why the Supreme Court has to turn over laws that get passed but, in the end, turn out to be unconstitional.

Lawyers get consulted, but the people actually writing or making the laws need no knowledge of legal matters. That is how we get insane, mind boggling laws on the books.

[–]VillageIdiot34 23 points 1 month ago

When the OP of this thread describes how locals don't wanna believe it, That is a meta or microcosm of the whole country when applied to larger issues like the banks and FED and bank bailouts etcetc

[–]Whiznot 11 points 1 month ago*

I am a former federal bank examiner. Political crooks control and regulate the banking industry top to bottom.

Every citizen should watch Inside Job Charles H. Ferguson's movie about the sub prime mortgage meltdown. http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

Every citizen should also read Inside Job: The Looting of America's Savings and Loans by Stephen Pizzo, Mary Fricker and Paul Muolo. http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Job-Looting-Americas-Savings/dp/0070502307

People need to be informed. Political criminals are busy stealing your future and your children's future on an ongoing basis. I have little faith in any politician but listen to Elizabeth Warren.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

Amen! Great film. Have you read Sr. Judge Richard Posner's book, The Failure of Capitalism? It is a great read. Wonder when HC will release her Wall Street speeches, LOL.

[–]Whiznot 3 points 1 month ago

I read some Amazon reviews of the Posner book. I like that it's critical of deregulation but I hate the title. Maybe I'll read it.

The book about the mortgage crisis that I liked was The Two Trillion Dollar Meltdown by banker Charles R. Morris.

Political criminals are the problem. The situation is hopeless because people vote for scam artists like the Bushes, the Clintons and Donald Trump. Educated thieves know that financial fraud is risk free. Bankers can steal as much as they want and never get prosecuted. During the S&L looting field examiners were instructed to ignore all frauds smaller than $1 million. Larger frauds would result in criminal referrals which usually went nowhere.

Picture this. The year is 1989. You are the SVP and head of commercial lending at a small community bank. You have a $250,000 100% financed home mortgage. You have another $250,000 debt on 25 different credit cards. Your salary and sole source of income is $49,000. You have a wife and two children in private school. You are constantly applying for more credit cards. Every month you go outside your bank and feed your stack of credit cards through the ATM to get cash advances. You take that cash back inside the bank to deposit so that you can make credit card minimum payments. You are a complete idiot and the commercial loans you make are shit.

FDIC Regional Office supervisors are informed of all the above and they say "yeah, but what is he doing wrong?"

[–]Neville1989 14 points 1 month ago

I am not sure if I believe SA is guilty or not, but I struggle to see how anyone could believe BD had anything to do with the murder of that poor woman. How was he represented at the time by local media? Did they ever mention his disability on the news? Did any of the locals know anything about BD's confession and how shady it was?

[–]justanother_thought[S] 3 points 1 month ago

No. I don't remember any coverage about the BD interrogation in the media. I believe I would've been aware of any videos available, but that was a time before youtube and the easy sharing of these types of videos. Except for the jurors, how could we see how BD was treated. MAM was the first I heard about it. This is why it's so disturbing. Not knowing what was going on behind the scenes in the justisce system.

[–]justanother_thought[S] 2 points 1 month ago

We knew he was of a low IQ.The way he was interrogated and led to a confession was never publicly presented much less debated. Again we had no videos at the time. Only the jury saw those - so, I as with most of us here in Manitowoc, went with the prosecution's narrative.

[–]devisan 10 points 1 month ago

If you're asking whether it's normal for people to avoid truths that would suggest the cops are bad, the answer is yes. The police and prosecutors have tremendous power over us, so to believe they are corrupt and might come after you or yours out of incompetency or deciding you're just bad... that's not a comfortable belief to have.

Some of us have enough character to handle uncomfortable realities. Others don't, so they have to keep lying to themselves about it.

But yeah, happens everywhere. It's just very human.

[–]Whiznot 3 points 1 month ago

There have always been a few corrupt cops but there hasn't always been the systemic corruption that exists now. The War Against Drugs and the War Against Terror have subjected citizens to a heavily armed and completely corrupt police state. You are either a cop or you are the enemy.

[–]JProps 6 points 1 month ago

I think it is very difficult for anyone to believe that MCSD could do what they are alleged to have done. I know for me, I was raised to believe the cops are the good guys and that justice will always prevail. It is even harder when it is "personal" or close to home when there has been so much prejudicial media coverage. However, when I hear that folks still believe he is guilty in the 1985 case it makes me less generous in my feelings. The one thing in MaM that really had my blood boiling was "The Pencil" hinting in his deposition that he still believed SA guilty because DNA evidence isn't foolproof. If that is the level of thinking, then it only makes me lean more toward SA being framed and that the man is still paying the price for a crime he didn't commit.

[–]impracticalwench 9 points 1 month ago

It also ties into something else that was said in the documentary. Someone suggested that if he had never been exonerated in the 1985 case Teresa Hallbach might still be alive. The overriding feeling I got from them was "the likes of him are better off behind bars, proven guilty or not." The voiceover during the search of SA's property bothered me even more. The suggestion that they should take his shoes in case there are other unsolved burglaries just sat totally wrong with me because I honestly could not decide whether she meant they might match the footprints...or they might plant them.

The fact is, Steven Avery was their go-to guy for local crimes. Seeing him imprisoned for life, in some eyes, would justify their mistakes in the first instance. "They might've got it wrong in the beginning but they weren't wrong about him." For some it might even convince them that the '85 conviction was legitimate and he got off on 'a technicality'.

For me, this is motive, along with the multi million dollar payout SA may well have secured. There are a LOT of people who would kill for a few million dollars. How many would frame someone for the same amount?

[–]smellikah 1 point 1 month ago

I believe the person that suggested that was Mark Gundrum - he was the one that introduced the Avery Bill.

[–]macdizzledoo 4 points 1 month ago

Lived up north in Eau Claire during all of this, and my in-laws live near Madison. I'm semi curious to pick their brains about it. They're super reasonable folks. Doesn't seem like from the friends we still have in EC, that the bias was as strong there.

[–]AdrienneBS 5 points 1 month ago

Coverage in Madison was apparently pretty minimal. I lived in MKE during the trial and remember it very clearly. My family who live in the Madison media area barely remember the case at all.

I remember just thinking what a creep SA was during the trial. There was no coverage of the defense arguments that stands out in my mind. I was always under the impression that he felt like he could get away with anything after being found innocent of the rape. Obviously now since MaM I feel differently, but my memory of the case from the time is just guilty, guilty, guilty.

[–]LoneMarmot 5 points 1 month ago

I was in college in Madison at the time and was wondering why I barely remember this case. Thought maybe I just wasn't watching the news much, but now I feel better. A coworker told me to watch MaM and I didn't remember the case at all until I got to the mug shots of SA and BD and then it started coming back. All I could remember from the media coverage was that they kept introducing SA as having just been let out of prison for rape. It wasn't clear to me that he was 100% exonerated based on DNA. And then I remember the description of BD's confession and thinking, gosh, a 16 yo kid did that? What a sicko. After watching MaM, I think the sickos are on the other side of the law.

I don't think people in WI who think he's guilty are ignorant. Just victims of a media that's biased towards the most sensational story.

[–]Whiznot 3 points 1 month ago*

By its very nature, the institution of local media was a major villain in the Halbach case. Some of the field reporters made an effort to be even handed but the TV anchors hyped the horror every night.

I heard an interview with former reporter Aaron Keller (the silver fox) on Crime Writers Podcast. Since the Avery trial, Keller earned a law degree and now teaches law in college. Keller stressed his reporting was critical of Kratz's infamous press conference. Surprisingly, Keller admitted that he hadn't watched MaM and that he had no opinion on Avery's guilt or innocence. After the interview hosts of the podcast had a hard time believing that Keller had no opinion on guilt. I was left with the impression that Keller was secretly embarrassed by the way local media prejudiced the case.

[–]pyrochyde 6 points 1 month ago

Corruption has been going on in law enforcement since the creation of law enforcement. It is pretty entertaining when the DA dismisses this like it is impossible to even imagine.

[–]DermottBanana 4 points 1 month ago

As much as everyone in this sub likes to beat up on Kratz, it's probably true that - for him - police corruption IS impossible to imagine

As DA, he spends his days fighting scumbags who've been served up by those same police. To admit to himself he's batting for the wrong team makes him one of the bad guys. And most people are the hero of their own life story. They can't conceive of being on the wrong team, fighting for the dishonest cheats. No, much easier him to tell himself that the liars are those who claim his team are wrong

[–]Refukulator 2 points 1 month ago*

I'll bet it's not too impossible for him to imagine.

Two men charged in D.A.R.E. embezzlement plot in court

http://wbay.com/2015/09/29/two-men-charged-in-d-a-r-e-embezzlement-plot-in-court/

The Brown County Sheriff’s Office says Vandenheuvel — the longtime face of the Drug Abuse Resistance Education (D.A.R.E.) program — stole thousands of dollars by pocketing money from fake parking passes. Part of D.A.R.E.’s funding comes from parking cars at home Packers games.

Did Paulus cheat to get convictions?

http://truthinjustice.org/paulus-cheat.htm

The case involving Price is among roughly 20 Lennon has forwarded to the state Department of Justice for investigation to determine whether Paulus used unethical or illegal tactics to win trials during his 14 years in office.

DUI cop resigns DARE board

http://www.wrn.com/2009/03/dui-cop-resigns-dare-board/

The chief of police in Manitowoc says Michaelyn Culligan is a good officer, but she has resigned from the board ofthe Wisconsin DARE Officers Association.

Culligan took the step after she was arrested earlier this month for drunken driving. It happened March 2 when Culligan's car got stuck in the snow in Two Rivers. The Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department handled the call because Culligan's husband is apolice officer with the Two Rivers department.

Ex-DA Ken Kratz's law license suspended in sexting scandal

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-da-ken-kratzs-law-license-suspended-in-sexting-scandal/

"This was exploitative behavior, harassing behavior, and a crass placement of his personal interests above those of his client, the State of Wisconsin,"

[–]Burnt_and_Blistered 4 points 1 month ago

Thanks for your perspective. I lived for most of my life in a town where there was considerable police (and, more broadly, county sheriff and judicial) corruption---which is viewed by most as unthinkable. There also is considerable scapegoating of anyone who is different. Some corruption has come to light publicly, and even so, denial runs deep.

Denial is one of those defense mechanisms that does, indeed, serve a purpose. It protects the minds of people who cannot cope with the information before them. Frankly, it's scary to consider that the people we trust to protect us can't always be trusted to do that. It's less discomfiting to believe what the police say than consider the alternative.

Until and unless people are provided alternative coping mechanisms---perhaps including an open acknowledgement, by local law enforcement that there was, indeed, past error and corruption and encouragement NOT to deny this---many people simply will not feel safe in letting that denial go.

That doesn't speak poorly of anyone, really. It's just basic human nature. It's self-protective. It changes when it becomes safe for it to change.

The thing is, I'm really conflicted about this. While I really do understand this aspect of human nature, I also believe there comes a point where it does become ethically wrong to permit yourself the comfort of denial when there is evidence that harm is befalling others in the community. Even when those "others" are deemed undesirable. There comes a time when it becomes morally necessary to squelch the anxiety that arises from considering things that are uncomfortable, and to really assess the situation. It's not okay to permit one's personal emotional comfort to enable the perpetuation of harm to others.

Even if you never have occasion for interaction with police, you have a responsibility to hold your police accountable for their actions. That requires actually assessing them.

Of course, none of us can control anyone but ourselves. Neither you nor I can change what anyone else things, feels, or does. We can speak up and out. We can encourage change. But we can't effect it, except in ourselves.

What I suspect will occur in my hometown is very gradual acknowledgement of corruption as the old guard retires or moves on, and their replacements demonstrate a better way of operating. I think that gradually, people will feel safer allowing the truth to dawn on them. But you know, perhaps that will never happen. Perhaps there will be nostalgia for what was good about the "good old days" and continued denial about what was not good---even as there is acceptance of what is better, now.

I don't anticipate a dramatic change. I would hope that if there were a large case that involved tremendous human rights violations, people would let go of their denial. But I don't think that they would. It is too scary, and people don't go out on limbs for the Averys of the world--because they are scary. It's easier to think of them as murderers than it is to think that Officer Friendly is the Bad Guy. The latter is …well, pretty damn frightening, isn't it?

[–]justanother_thought[S] 2 points 1 month ago

    It is too scary, and people don't go out on limbs for the Averys of the world--because they are scary. It's easier to think of them as murderers than it is to think that Officer Friendly is the Bad Guy. The latter is …well, pretty damn frightening, isn't it?

You are right-on with that last sentence. We still live by stereotypes and consider the poor and less educated as inferior and the better-off and educated in a much more favorable light. And we usually don't even realize it.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

One way to affect change is to demand your community hire LE leaders from outside the region. Additionally, changing the position of county sheriff from an elected to an appointed position offers citizens the opportunity to hire a person with the necessary educational credentials and leadership experience to implement necessary reforms.

It is imperative we change organizations that were largely created via cronyism to organizations staffed by those best qualified to perform the job. IMO, a minimum qualification for an entry-level LEO should be a Bachelor's degree and if he/she hopes to be promoted, the person needs to acquire or be working toward a Master's degree.

Positions with far less responsibility and pay require these degrees. It is illogical LE remains immune to a degree requirement. Our lives are potentially in their hands.

[–]justanother_thought[S] 2 points 1 month ago

I live in the city of Manitowoc, so before the '85 rape the Averys were not generally known in the city. They live in a rural area fifteen to twenty minutes from Manitowoc.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

They would have been well-known in Maribel, Mishicot, Francis Creek, and possibly Kellnersville.

[–]Whiznot 5 points 1 month ago

Hello. We know that there were at least a few locals who, right from the start, were not drinking Ken Kratz Kool-aid.

Fourteen minutes into episode 3 there was a scene from Chiller's Bar & Grill. The pool players at Chiller's were quite willing to accept the premise that the Halbach murder was a setup. Pool players, in general, are skeptical of law enforcement. A lot of the pool players probably know narcs who deal drugs through informants.

[–]Wooingjuliet 2 points 1 month ago

My mom moved from Milwaukee where I was raised to Green Bay in 1999. I asked her about it last week, and she has not watched MaM. She is fairly certain of their guilt and is regurgitating what she's hearing in the current local press, which seems pretty guilt-slanted. Is that other locals' impression on the current local press?

[–]justanother_thought[S] 3 points 1 month ago

We have a local radio show in Manitowoc where anyone can call in and spout off. 99 % of the callers are conservative. Since December when MaM came out and everyone in the country was talking about it, it was rarely brought up in the community discussion. I find that amazing! The didn't even care to have an opinion. It may be that, since most callers are old that they don't have Netflix and had never seen it. Still, I can't think why we don't even want to talk about it. Even the radio host has this dismissive attitude about the subject.

[–]knowjustice 0 points 1 month ago

OMG, It's the worst! When my parents were still alive, they always listened to that station. I tried calling into the program on more than one occasion just to rile up the locals, but damn, I never got through. Do they still have ,"Air Exchange?" LOL

[–]justanother_thought[S] 2 points 1 month ago

Oh yes they still have the air exchange.

[–][deleted] 2 points 1 month ago

The corruption is everywhere, my NM peeps just saw it go down with the Levi Chavez case a few years ago. Evidence is apparently manipulated all the time.

[–]mickloud 2 points 1 month ago

    What I find interesting is that just about everyone in this town doesn't want to believe that BD or SA are innocent. Most don't want to watch it and could care less about SA and BD. They think that there is no way that the MCSD could do anything as sinister as plant evidence. I am in the distinct minority about this. I suppose most locals don't want to think they could be living in a county where the law is so carelessly applied.

This is exactly it. It can also be extrapolated to any similar small city/community/township/locale, or American law enforcement in general.

It's really this simple

[–]Minister_Garbitsch 2 points 1 month ago

As someone who was born in Los Angeles and has been here for 43 years it boggles my mind that people don't just assume the police are corrupt. Different worlds!

[–]Thewormsate 1 point 1 month ago

Just, have you read the DOJ Memo dated 12/17/03? It talks about many meetings with TK, DV and PB. She also got calls from Allen, she was very involved, and this makes me question what her position really was! Oh yeah, there is also the write up she did with the victim project. Just my opinion.

[–]justanother_thought[S] 1 point 1 month ago

No I haven't read the memo. Do you know how I could find it? I don't see any reason Penny would be considered any more than a victim. I'd like to know more about those calls from Allen. I'm not sure what you mean when you say she is"very involved".

[–]Thewormsate 1 point 1 month ago

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/01/05/penny-beernsten-the-rape-victim-in-making-a-murderer-speaks-out#.yl0E1qEMV

Then go to: Stevenaverycase.com And read the 2003 DOJ Memo, both are very good reads. This one here explains the calls and everything else.

[–]knowjustice 0 points 1 month ago

If you consider how few people believed this level of corruption existed in our justice system prior to the release of MaM, I imagine the probability Ms. Beernsten would think her neighbor/friend had any reason to intentionally deceive her was slim to none. If someone you knew well and for a lengthy time-period repeatedly assured you your attacker was safely behind bars, would you distrust him or her? Unlikely.

[–]Thewormsate 2 points 1 month ago

Ultimate betrayal! Hard for me to believe so many walk through life so unscathed and lacking in lessons that build character. (I mean that in a good way) Kinda like, maybe those people should have exposed themselves to the other side so to speak and maybe they wouldn't have build up such an intolerance of others not like themselves!

[–]tehnico 1 point 1 month ago

    I suppose most locals don't want to think they could be living in a county where the law is so carelessly applied.

Sooo, they don't realize they live in the most incarcerated, least free, country in the world?

[–]HeidiAnn77 1 point 1 month ago

"I suppose most locals don't want to think they could be living in a county where the law is so carelessly applied."

In my mind it's the exact opposite. I am furious that I live in a country where the law is so lawless! They are upheld to some other standard and we really need to overhaul the LE in these communities. No one's name alone should be enough to prosecute a person, but I have a feeling this is more common than not in smaller communities.

I wish that more people would have an open mind, in this case especially we are seeing that it was more than just an open and shut case. Had police, prosecution and investigators done their job, this sub wouldn't exist today and Making a Murderer would not be on Netflix.

[–]knowjustice 1 point 1 month ago

It takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to go after these folks via our justice system. And even then, regardless of the material evidence and facts, you will likely lose..even in the federal court. Been there, done that, lost!

Six years in state and federal court and bankrupt in the end. I represented myself because the state court ensured I was broke long before I filed my federal civil rights lawsuit. Convenient.

[–]ptrbtr 6 points 1 day ago

I'm from Green Bay. Lived in the state most of my life other than military and having to work out of state, still always a resident.

I thought he was guilty before and during the trial, but I worked with people from the Manitowoc area and started to question some things.

There were quite a few that thought something was wrong with the whole story, but they were very careful of what the said in company of others. The ones that thought he was guilty were very verbal about it.

Manitowoc Locals--What's it like around there now?
Submitted by MrHighlight at TickTockManitowoc
February 4, 2017

Now that we're over a year out from the release of the documentary and I'm sure it's at least died out around there a little bit, how are things now? Are people just tired of the whole thing? Does the majority of the region still think that Avery is guilty? Do people still even talk about it? Haven't seen a lot of discussion about this lately, so I'm just curious.

[–]camry2fast 17 points 2 days ago

I travel up to Manitowoc for work once every few months and the last time I was there I ate at a local restaurant(not going to say which one). I very cleverly asked the person that served me about the case without stating what side of the fence I was on, or that I'm a die-hard TTM'er. I asked if people ask them about it and they said all the time. They get people that come in from California to New York just to see the area where all this went down. They said people always ask about the case. I said I know very little (yeah right) and wondered what their opinion was. They said they felt he is innocent. They said they knew an investigator that worked for S & B and that after everything he learned and saw, he truly felt SA was innocent. I have a feeling they were talking about PB but not sure.

It was an interesting conversation to say the least but made me leave there feeling pretty good!

[–]knowjustice 3 points 2 days ago

You are correct, that would be CPB. Great guy. My great grandfather and his worked together in the 1870's in TR. Damn small world. Inso? 😊

[–]MrHighlight[S] 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah, I'm sure it's highly irritating living in that area at this point. I just have to wonder if it's at least dying down to some degree yet. They've gotta be absolutely tired of it.

[–]stateurname 14 points 2 days ago

The letter tossed out this past week is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back. The details in the letter is over the line of common decency. It seems that the letter comes from someone who had interest in maintaining SA's guilt and that is going to be brought out and reviled for what it is and those who passed it around.

[–]WiscoBiz 7 points 2 days ago

Everyone that I have talked to while in town has believed SA is innocent and that law enforcement in the area is very corrupt.

[–]Devchonachko 7 points 2 days ago

Nobody talks about SA. If you bring his name up you get "the look" which can be interpreted 3 different ways. He's a non-issue. People are more excited there's a Qdoba and a Panda Express than they give two fucks about the whole shebang. I live in Manitowoc County and I do almost all my shopping in Manitowoc. If you don't live in the midwest, you probably think it's weird the Averys are not a hot topic--but this is a region where if you are blocking someone in the aisle of a grocery store people will wait patiently for you to move and they'll never say "EXCUSE ME COULD YOU MOVE?!" About the only time you'd use your horn would be if there were deer crossing the road. Life goes on here.

[–]AdaAli 3 points 1 day ago

And that's how the corruption flies by people assuming benevolent premise

[–]Devchonachko 2 points 1 day ago

When Brandon does get out nobody will give him any shit- general sentiment is that he got dragged into this and "served his time". There's no bloodlust.

[–]Shitaloo 12 points 2 days ago

Very Quiet here in Manty...Alot of folks still believe SA is Guilty and the rest believes he's innocent. If you read Manitowoc History on LE department it was corrupt since 1860

[–]barneysbullet95 5 points 2 days ago*

I saved some post from before I joined, most are from people claiming to be locals. I'll try and dig them up, I find it interesting that most haven't been on for a while.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/43gv5p/a_locals_perspective_to_the_recent_mayhem_of_the/?st=IYQ4ONXZ&sh=dc814b00

Couple locals commenting. Very interesting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3i85ad/who_killed_17year_old_richard_ricky_hochstetler/?st=IYQ50JOJ&sh=e656485c

[–]justanother_thought 3 points 1 day ago

I live in Manitowoc and rarely hear people talk about it. The politicians all have to stand up for the integrity of the city and believe both are guilty. The locals mostly think SA is guilty and BD is innocent. An interesting insight into how the town likes to hide news of local big shots is the news that Bob Ziegelbauer - the county executive -was guilty of hitting two people with his car and the local press and radio station never reported it - even though a police report was filed.It reeks of protecting those in power as if they are above the law, much as all those involved in both Avery cases never got any negative local press about their corruption.