[–]TheThinkyThing
But why would LE focus on TH? They could use a drug addicted sex worker as the "fall-girl" and not someone with potential family roots... It's way more risky? I do think the quarry was controlled by the police, but I still can't figure out what happened here and why?
[–]Booty_Grazer
PLANNED & executed, as planned with a willing asset, TERESA. It would have been so much easier to execute Jody. Then again why execute anyone??? Just give the illusions of a murder using a willing asset. It's not astrophysics here.
[–]Booty_Grazer
Walking away LMAO at Teresa killed...
When you or anyone else shows one just one iota of 100% proof Teresa is dead. "Bring it"
The DOJ made sure nothing could identify as Teresa even DNA. You've been sold a truck load of BS and wanting to buy more...
[–]Habundia
That's my thinking. In this case specifically I want to see evidence of Teresa being dead. There is 0 evidence of it. They had multiple things of TH which would have given a perfect DNA sample for Teresa, yet they only had her mother's DNA? Her death certificate is dubious. The bones that have been destroyed are dubious. There are just to many mysteries for one to say with certainty she died because of murder (or illness, which also is said). For me, this woman is still a 'missing person case', with tons of questions to be answered.
[–]Habundia
I do not think ilness killed her if she has died, it's a theory that's been spread around. I think it's too convenient.
[–]Booty_Grazer
Illness 2 weeks before Steve was 100% going to win his case after the depositions 2 weeks after Teresa's disappearance ....Nope, this was planned starting the day the DOJ knew Steve's DNA didn't match the hairs on Penny B, 05/2002.
[–]black-dog-barks
Let's not forget she gave AT her notice and her cat was at the vet getting it's shots updated as Hawaii has strict laws regarding animals coming onto the islands with their pet parents.
[–]Booty_Grazer
30-day quarantine alternate program in any Hawaii island after completed shots, no matter cat or dog. It was 120 days till 2003.
https://old.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/bkkt58/involved_indirectly/
When you know the alleged victim is alive, how much effort do you put in... LOL
Everyone has to understand.... The Dassey computer was flagged by LE because of the specific web searches...
They then placed TH as a paid CI to watch and report on the ASY activities hoping to find SA was involved with using the Dassey computer.
On Oct 31, after BoD had set up a meeting on Kuss Rd. to meet TH he was taken down by MCSD after he attempted to assault TH.
Bobby was placed in a big Black SUV .... and told how this was going down... he cooperates with the PD, and puts TH going into SA trailer... that is all you need to do to stay out of jail for the next 20 years...
From Kuss Rd the planting began to take SA down. Slam dunk... bing bang boom...
TH never died, Carmen B was used as a decoy... coroner not allowed because of the ruse...
And why PoG , finds the SUV so easy...
See it's not all that hard folks... to MAKE A MURDERER.
I believe that serendipity indeed played a role in TH untimely demise, and MTSO capitalized on her misfortune...
It just dawned on me...The Z family must not observe Halloween, because a mere 4 days later, neither GZ, Jo Ellen Z nor JZ could locate their own front door, from inside their own house...as Huey, Duey and Lewy milled around the front porch, rapping feverishly ...
One would assume that a person could quite readily find the door to their own house...and what is that infernal DING! DONG! ??...jeezus H...does anyone actually believe this bullshit?...
I think GZ awoke from a mid-afternoon drunken stupor, he was drinkin' instead of workin', his alibi whereabouts was never verified(NO, it was not), he was startled by TH coming up the side of the house, she turns, raises her camera, he thinks it is a gun, accidentally shot her, thinking she was an intruder...
He then called his LE connection(life-long buddy) GK..."hey Gene, I fucked up, I really need your help...".....the rest of it falls into place as MTSO holds all the cards...and spare me the "it's TOO complicated, TOO many people involved..." because that is simply not true...GK had access to ALL the "evidence", he had plenty of time to consult with interested persons (DV, TK), and it is my belief that JL planted evidence while AC attempted distraction...everyone else merely did their jobs, turned a blind eye,
GZ and JeZ are provided with their story...JZ wasn't actually there for it, so he doesn't know for sure what went down...but JeZ and GZ sure as fuck do...and look at how they subsequently behave? FFS, these people are totally lost, in their own home? C'mon...
Why won't the Z family answer their door?
Because GK didn't include GZ in the larger plans, that's why... so GZ freaked when he sees the three stooges on the front stoop...and JeZ is just following hubby's lead...GZ was on the phone to GK getting the "story" straight...one look at the nonsense that ultimately transpired and those of us with one iota of common sense can see that these idiots are taking their cues from someone behind the scene ...JeZ can't be sure of anything?...that's what the cops are telling her ...and she is hanging out the bathroom window talking to cops?..WTF is going on in Manitowoc?...GZ comes across as senile or suffering from dementia...none of this behavior passes the smell test...
But nobody gives a shit what we know...all that matters is what KZ can prove...
[–]HuNuWutWen
I decided a long time ago to stop wasting my critical thinking skills on falsified information...
...how the hell could I expect to make sense of all this obviously planted evidence, and the ridiculously fake investigation, all these lying cops shuffling around like fucking morons, Kratz spewing fabricated garbage to the media, while Willis the village idiot strokes his kangaroo ?...
...Like most, I no longer have the time or patience to entertain all of the falsity, it makes me feel stupid, it insults my intellect...
... Therefore, I have settled on 2 undeniable items of FACT...
1. Teresa was alive, well, and driving HER Rav4, at 2:27 pm, and she carried on a 4:45 min. conversation...so, for the purpose of determining what allegedly happened to Teresa, this chronological point is of critical significance, obviously...
...there is NO EVIDENCE that Teresa actually visited the Zips, so unless and until someone produces material evidence, it did not happen. Period....
...But, her Cell activity indicates that she tried to find it, called the Zips, didn't hear back, so she went on to the address she recognized, Avery Road...that's what happened, logical grown-ups understand this is what happened, normal reasonable people see this as blatantly obvious...
... regarding Teresa's cellular activity...
...the last 3 pings on her activity report were INCOMING calls, FROM 2192(3), 2 minutes elapses then handed off to 2192(1), then 14 minutes elapses, and finally at 2:41pm, handed off to 2110(1)...look at the geographic coverage areas of those three antennae sectors, as well as the geographic locations of those tower structures, on which the aforementioned directional antennae are mounted...
...3 INCOMING signals, initiated from 3 DIFFERENT tower locations, spaced many miles apart, over a time lapse of approx. 30 minutes...
...clearly, over this time lapse from 2:12pm (the first ping in 2192(3) sector) to 2:41pm, Teresa is mobile, she is driving, this is fact, not speculation...note, the 2:12pm is initiated OUTBOUND from device to tower...
... she drives through 2192(3) sector, passes through 2192(1) sector, drives into 2110(1) sector, and that's where her phone digitally disappears, forever...
...we KNOW that Teresa was yapping on her phone, in her car, at 2:32pm, and we KNOW where the 2110(1) sector is geographically located relative to ASY, it is 11 miles away... AND...wait for it...what else do we KNOW?
... we KNOW that Steven was stationary this ENTIRE time, in fact, Steven called Teresa, from his stationary position, at 2:24pm and again at 2:35 pm...LOOK what Teresa's phone is doing at those times ...Steven was standing at ASY, at 2:35pm, Teresa had departed a few minutes earlier...
...keep in mind the testimony of Bobby, regarding this time of day, he was right there, looking out the window, and it is the middle of the business day at ASY, who knows how many customers were around, and the other business down the road...
... from 2:35 to 2:41...6 minutes...to kidnap/kill, in broad daylight, in front of HOW MANY potential witnesses ?..hide/hogtie/silence a struggling adult, immediately race away from the "crime scene" with the cell phone...? all for naught, folks...
...there just is not enough time, Steven did not do it...
2. 2:41pm, 2110(1) sector, CFNA...
....and just for fun, how did Teresa's phone end up in Steven's burn barrel ?... I have just illustrated that it is, for all intents, chronologically impossible for Steven to have accomplished this "crime", yet look at the childishly "hidden" evidence all over Steven's property ?....
...KZ needs to get inside that Rav4...
[–]MnAtty
KZ's testing focused on a scenario where TH was behind her car when she was struck, probably on the head. It was the first time a legitimate investigation had analyzed the evidence, because the original prosecution's case had been such a sham.
Also then, the multiple sightings of the Rav4 pulled of the road in a certain location became much more relevant.
I'm guessing most people here have theorized in a relative vacuum long enough. At this point we probably understand as much as we're ever going to, so now the focus has shifted to KZ's case, as it makes its way through the courts. It's a waiting game, as she works to overcome what are essentially stalling tactics by the State of Wisconsin.
And it's particularly exciting right now, to see all the amicus briefs for Brendan, so his case has become the focus as well.
[–]idunno_why
The blood spatter on the cargo door is the only real evidence of her manner of death and it's often overlooked in the theories that come out.
She was either unloading/loading something in the cargo area when she was assaulted, or someone was forcing her into it which doesn't make sense because it would be easy to climb out a rear door.
[–]JJacks61
The entire Zip encounter is just odd. I can't call it anything else. Think back to the phone call to GZ and his responses. Then, when the cops went to their house, they talked through a window for what, 20 minutes before finally being let in.
JoEZ statement that was written by Dedering and made to fit Kratz timeline at trial. The answering machine message that has never been publicly heard and is missing. GZ nor JZ called to testify even though it was JZ car Teresa allegedly took a picture of.
All of this just seems like a distraction, as in saying, HEY look over here. DP's clearly untruthful testimony about the phone call. Again, I believe this was used to manipulate the jury to guide them away from any other narrative.
Other people in Teresa's circle are far more likely suspects. Less odd and far more suspicious. Kratz made a spectacle out of the Zips, and he did it on purpose.
[–]MMonroe54
I agree. If the Zipperer family had behaved differently, I think the phone call not appearing on the AT&T record, and/or the missing VM copy might seem unremarkable. But when you add their behavior that night, to George's hostility over the phone, to JoEllen's report of TH's visit -- which she didn't even write but signed -- and the phone call and recording.....it's just a lot of peculiarities.
I just go where the evidence takes me:
Zips scenario seems less likely because of the evidence that TH made it home in the afternoon. A couple of things point in that direction.
Her planner was written on during the day and ended up "at home" being TH & SB's place.
Her mother says is her call the last time she saw TH, was "at home" which based on other quotes likely means at KHs house. It says on THs planner that she will pick up stuff from Mom's. So, it is a possible indicator that KH did see TH at KHs house Monday after the photo shoot and lied about last time she saw her. Or...knew TH had picked up things Monday and didn't physically see her so KK got her to bend the truth about the last time her seeing her is Sunday.
RH says in the beginning he last saw TH in Cowgirl costume which doesn't make sense on Sunday. So, it is more likely she was getting ready to go to a Halloween party on Monday. Then RH later recants that she talked about the costume.
AW says she saw her last at Halloween party Oct 21st according to the paper. It is assumed to be a mistake and should say Oct 29th. But, TP says she was meeting friends for a party Oct 31st. Seems like AW can't keep her lie straight.
Mike H doesn't give a straight answer about TH going to a party after the wedding photography gig on Sat. He dances around saying "I believe" and such until it is repeated and he agrees.
However, none of these are concrete proof that she went home. But, they all support the theory that she did go home, met up with Ryan, and went to a party with or without him.
Zips are definitely sketchy. But, that could be any number of things. Maybe GZ was drunk, high, etc. when LE came and was afraid to answer the door. Maybe GZ was growing MJ in his basement. Maybe there was an alien in his house...to Kratz it a little bit. Who knows? But, things are leading away from that theory now. Maybe TH swung by the Zips after she went home and met her untimely death there.
Given that none of her friends called her on halloween, it leads me to believe she was with them.
Given the voicemail ids put the condolences call from a photographer on Nov 1st, it leads me to believe THs photographer friends know she is dead.
Given the AQ call asking for family photos, it leads met to believe it was an alibi or find the phone call since his wife and two sister-in-laws are photographers.
Given that MH didn't listen to all of THs messages leads me to believe he already knew what happened and was more interested in removing incriminating info for TH & MH set of friends.
The simplest explanation is she died in a negligent-homicide as reported originally. Friends either were with her when she died or found her dead. If with her, they would cooperate with any police investigation that points away from themselves. (Like JB pointing towards BC.) If they found her, LE could set it up to point to SA and get them on board.
I haven't eliminated the idea that she died in another way and LE set up the friends to either find or feel guilt to cooperate with LEs plan to frame Avery. There are many possibilities: simple accident, Zips did it, LE did it, RH did it, AQ did it, stranger did it. We have so little information about any of the other options it is difficult to eliminate or settle on any one.
I really can't buy into the special agent and she's still alive notion. But, I don't comment on everyone of those posts stating my position against it because I think every topic/idea has its place for logical discussion and debate. I wish all would have the same respect and not try to turn every OP into his/her platform to promote his/her favortie theory.
So, until the next discovery to turn our perspective, THs friends have some explaining to do....
'Making a Murderer': Inside 3 Best Conspiracy Theories
From faked deaths to extra bodies, internet sleuths have spent months coming up with far-fetched explanations – but could one of them be true?
By Amelia McDonell-Parry, Rolling Stone
September 2, 2016
Last Friday, Steven Avery's attorney Kathleen Zellner filed a motionseeking evidence for advanced scientific testing, the first big legal move she’s made since taking on her client and vowing to exonerate him of Teresa Halbach's murder. The filing makes bold declarations about what the various tests will prove, and reveals her theory on how Avery was framed by law enforcement. Zellner told reporters that she already has enough evidence to win Avery a new trial, but sending him back to square one isn't her goal. These advanced scientific tests, she claims, will lead to a full exoneration and reveal what really happened to Halbach on October 31st, 2005. With 17 exonerations under her belt, it’s hard not to take such statements from Zellner – who is working on Avery's case pro-bono – as a guarantee.
His nephew's conviction was overturned, but will that mean anything for the main subject of the hit Netflix show?
The results of the various tests – including radiocarbon tests on the drops of Avery's blood found in the RAV4 and fingerprint DNA tests – are expected in approximately three months. If Zellner gets her wish, there will be enough evidence for her to file a new petition for post-conviction relief in which she will finally reveal all that she has been hinting at on Twitter since taking on Avery's case in January.
In the meantime, those who have been following this case with rabid interest are left to stew over the possibilities online, in blog posts or video rants, and in the various Reddit subgroups dedicated to Making a Murderer. Since its Netflix debut last December, dedicated viewers have been parsing court documents, pouring over evidence and brainstorming different theories to an exhausting degree of specificity.
While a number of the claims made in Zellner's motion have been hotly debated online for the last eight months, now Zellner is contending that she actually has the evidence to prove them. Some believe that Zellner is going to blow the lid off what has been a much darker conspiracy all along. Grab your tin foil hats, here are three kinda bat- crackers – but not completely impossible – theories being proposed by Making a Murderer superfans.
Theory #1: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department (MCSD) officers killed Teresa Halbach in order to frame Steven Avery for the murder.
Motive: In 2005, Avery was suing MCSD, Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek, and former District Attorney Ken Vogel for a total of $36 million over his 1985 wrongful conviction for rape. Avery looked to be all but guaranteed to win a substantial settlement that threatened to bankrupt the sheriff's department and the county, not to mention ruin a few reputations. Avery reportedly had ample evidence that Kocourek and Vogel dissuaded any effort to pursue other suspects and ignored evidence of his innocence after he was convicted. They were both scheduled to give their depositions in mid-November 2005.
Argument: MCSD had Avery under surveillance, so they knew that Halbach, a pretty 25-year-old photographer for Auto Trader, made weekly trips to Manitowoc and had met with Avery at least four or five times. According to the Reddit theorists, on October 31st, after Halbach left the Avery Salvage Yard, she was lured somewhere remote and murdered – by Kocourek, Vogel, or someone they hired. A few other officers were roped in to plant the evidence on the Avery property. They also allege that Halbach's ex-boyfriend, Ryan Hillegas, was coerced into helping, either because they convinced him of Avery's guilt or they threatened to target him as their number one suspect.
Avery was arrested on November 9, Kocourek and Vogel's depositions were "postponed," and Avery ended up settling the lawsuit for a paltry $400,000 before they could be rescheduled.
Well Actually: Kocourek and Vogel might have had a compelling motive to frame Avery, but if they're willing to commit murder to accomplish their goal, wouldn't they just kill him?
Theory #2: Teresa Halbach is still alive and was an informant who worked with law enforcement to frame Steven Avery by faking her own murder.
Motive: Law enforcement still wanted to frame Avery for their own interests, but they wanted someone to help them, not someone to kill. So, they decided to recruit a pretty criminal justice major named Teresa Halbach by convincing her that Avery was a danger to society and she would be doing a service by faking her own murder.
Argument: According to one Redditor, Halbach played the role of femme fatale, who took a job at Auto Trader in order to establish a professional relationship with Avery, while also planting seeds that he had taken an inappropriate shine to her. Following that final, fateful appointment on October 31st, Halbach vanished into thin air – with a one-way ticket to Canada under a new name, obviously – and law enforcement spent the next week planting evidence. These theorists believe that select members of Halbach's family knew she was still alive, which would explain why Halbach's brother Mike, for example, spoke about her as if she was dead before the burnt bones were even found.
The bones in burn pit, burn barrel and down at the Radandt quarry were never conclusively identified as belonging to Halbach anyway. A small piece of tissue attached to a shin bone was sent to the FBI for mitochondrial DNA testing, and their report concluded that Halbach could not be excluded as the source; only seven out of the 16 DNA markers necessary for identification were present, which is why the FBI's results were so inconclusive. Nevertheless, investigators informed the media that the FBI had confirmed the bones belonged to Halbach, and no one from the FBI was called to testify about this evidence at Avery or Dassey's trial.
Well Actually: Being a criminal justice major in college does not explain why Halbach would participate in faking her own death to frame someone she does not know, let alone sit idly by as an innocent 16-year-old like Brendan Dassey takes the fall as well. Putting aside those ethical implications, Halbach would also be agreeing to fool friends and family members into believing she's dead and be okay with never seeing them again. There's also the practical fact that "disappearing" for good takes the kind of resources, money and brains that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department simply does not have.
Theory #3: The charred bones don't belong to Teresa Halbach.
Motive: Framing someone for murder really requires a body in order to convince loved ones and the media that the victim is dead, not to mention convince a jury to convict. According to this theory, Halbach's remains weren't an option – she's still alive as in Theory #2, or something about her corpse would have pointed at the real killer, or there was no time to burn the body – so another woman's cremains were planted at the Avery's instead.
Argument: Many believers in this theory have speculated that the bones might belong to another Manitowoc County woman – who looks disturbingly like Halbach – named Carmen Boutwell, who was found dead from an alleged meth overdose on the morning of November 3, 2005, the day Halbach was reported missing. There are some claims that Manitowoc County handled her cremation, which would have occurred during the same period when the charred cremains were found on Avery's property.
A YouTube vlogger went the extra mile by proclaiming to have proof – Halbach is a distant relative of Boutwell on her mother's side. That was enough for her to conclude that the two women would be a mitochondrial DNA match. This works, except she describes a genetic link between Halbach and Boutwell with at least one male blood relative in the mix, and mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother. So, even if the two women were distantly related, their mtDNA would not be a match. And if their mtDNA was a match? It still wouldn't conclusively ID either of them as the source of the cremains.
Well Actually: This theory is not impossible, it's just difficult to prove or fruitless to debate without more known variables. If all of the alleged commonalities between Halbach and Boutwell could be corroborated, it would certainly be extremely coincidental and strange – but it doesn't prove anything about the bones themselves. Good thing Zellner has asked for additional tests on the pelvis bone found at the quarry in order to "determine their origin."
HuNuWutWen at TickTockManitowoc
Last Friday, Steven Avery's attorney Kathleen Zellner filed a motionseeking evidence for advanced scientific testing, the first big legal move she’s made since taking on her client and vowing to exonerate him of Teresa Halbach's murder. The filing makes bold declarations about what the various tests will prove, and reveals her theory on how Avery was framed by law enforcement. Zellner told reporters that she already has enough evidence to win Avery a new trial, but sending him back to square one isn't her goal. These advanced scientific tests, she claims, will lead to a full exoneration and reveal what really happened to Halbach on October 31st, 2005. With 17 exonerations under her belt, it’s hard not to take such statements from Zellner – who is working on Avery's case pro-bono – as a guarantee.
His nephew's conviction was overturned, but will that mean anything for the main subject of the hit Netflix show?
The results of the various tests – including radiocarbon tests on the drops of Avery's blood found in the RAV4 and fingerprint DNA tests – are expected in approximately three months. If Zellner gets her wish, there will be enough evidence for her to file a new petition for post-conviction relief in which she will finally reveal all that she has been hinting at on Twitter since taking on Avery's case in January.
In the meantime, those who have been following this case with rabid interest are left to stew over the possibilities online, in blog posts or video rants, and in the various Reddit subgroups dedicated to Making a Murderer. Since its Netflix debut last December, dedicated viewers have been parsing court documents, pouring over evidence and brainstorming different theories to an exhausting degree of specificity.
While a number of the claims made in Zellner's motion have been hotly debated online for the last eight months, now Zellner is contending that she actually has the evidence to prove them. Some believe that Zellner is going to blow the lid off what has been a much darker conspiracy all along. Grab your tin foil hats, here are three kinda bat- crackers – but not completely impossible – theories being proposed by Making a Murderer superfans.
Theory #1: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department (MCSD) officers killed Teresa Halbach in order to frame Steven Avery for the murder.
Motive: In 2005, Avery was suing MCSD, Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek, and former District Attorney Ken Vogel for a total of $36 million over his 1985 wrongful conviction for rape. Avery looked to be all but guaranteed to win a substantial settlement that threatened to bankrupt the sheriff's department and the county, not to mention ruin a few reputations. Avery reportedly had ample evidence that Kocourek and Vogel dissuaded any effort to pursue other suspects and ignored evidence of his innocence after he was convicted. They were both scheduled to give their depositions in mid-November 2005.
Argument: MCSD had Avery under surveillance, so they knew that Halbach, a pretty 25-year-old photographer for Auto Trader, made weekly trips to Manitowoc and had met with Avery at least four or five times. According to the Reddit theorists, on October 31st, after Halbach left the Avery Salvage Yard, she was lured somewhere remote and murdered – by Kocourek, Vogel, or someone they hired. A few other officers were roped in to plant the evidence on the Avery property. They also allege that Halbach's ex-boyfriend, Ryan Hillegas, was coerced into helping, either because they convinced him of Avery's guilt or they threatened to target him as their number one suspect.
Avery was arrested on November 9, Kocourek and Vogel's depositions were "postponed," and Avery ended up settling the lawsuit for a paltry $400,000 before they could be rescheduled.
Well Actually: Kocourek and Vogel might have had a compelling motive to frame Avery, but if they're willing to commit murder to accomplish their goal, wouldn't they just kill him?
Theory #2: Teresa Halbach is still alive and was an informant who worked with law enforcement to frame Steven Avery by faking her own murder.
Motive: Law enforcement still wanted to frame Avery for their own interests, but they wanted someone to help them, not someone to kill. So, they decided to recruit a pretty criminal justice major named Teresa Halbach by convincing her that Avery was a danger to society and she would be doing a service by faking her own murder.
Argument: According to one Redditor, Halbach played the role of femme fatale, who took a job at Auto Trader in order to establish a professional relationship with Avery, while also planting seeds that he had taken an inappropriate shine to her. Following that final, fateful appointment on October 31st, Halbach vanished into thin air – with a one-way ticket to Canada under a new name, obviously – and law enforcement spent the next week planting evidence. These theorists believe that select members of Halbach's family knew she was still alive, which would explain why Halbach's brother Mike, for example, spoke about her as if she was dead before the burnt bones were even found.
The bones in burn pit, burn barrel and down at the Radandt quarry were never conclusively identified as belonging to Halbach anyway. A small piece of tissue attached to a shin bone was sent to the FBI for mitochondrial DNA testing, and their report concluded that Halbach could not be excluded as the source; only seven out of the 16 DNA markers necessary for identification were present, which is why the FBI's results were so inconclusive. Nevertheless, investigators informed the media that the FBI had confirmed the bones belonged to Halbach, and no one from the FBI was called to testify about this evidence at Avery or Dassey's trial.
Well Actually: Being a criminal justice major in college does not explain why Halbach would participate in faking her own death to frame someone she does not know, let alone sit idly by as an innocent 16-year-old like Brendan Dassey takes the fall as well. Putting aside those ethical implications, Halbach would also be agreeing to fool friends and family members into believing she's dead and be okay with never seeing them again. There's also the practical fact that "disappearing" for good takes the kind of resources, money and brains that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department simply does not have.
Theory #3: The charred bones don't belong to Teresa Halbach.
Motive: Framing someone for murder really requires a body in order to convince loved ones and the media that the victim is dead, not to mention convince a jury to convict. According to this theory, Halbach's remains weren't an option – she's still alive as in Theory #2, or something about her corpse would have pointed at the real killer, or there was no time to burn the body – so another woman's cremains were planted at the Avery's instead.
Argument: Many believers in this theory have speculated that the bones might belong to another Manitowoc County woman – who looks disturbingly like Halbach – named Carmen Boutwell, who was found dead from an alleged meth overdose on the morning of November 3, 2005, the day Halbach was reported missing. There are some claims that Manitowoc County handled her cremation, which would have occurred during the same period when the charred cremains were found on Avery's property.
A YouTube vlogger went the extra mile by proclaiming to have proof – Halbach is a distant relative of Boutwell on her mother's side. That was enough for her to conclude that the two women would be a mitochondrial DNA match. This works, except she describes a genetic link between Halbach and Boutwell with at least one male blood relative in the mix, and mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother. So, even if the two women were distantly related, their mtDNA would not be a match. And if their mtDNA was a match? It still wouldn't conclusively ID either of them as the source of the cremains.
Well Actually: This theory is not impossible, it's just difficult to prove or fruitless to debate without more known variables. If all of the alleged commonalities between Halbach and Boutwell could be corroborated, it would certainly be extremely coincidental and strange – but it doesn't prove anything about the bones themselves. Good thing Zellner has asked for additional tests on the pelvis bone found at the quarry in order to "determine their origin."
HuNuWutWen at TickTockManitowoc
My pet theory is that George Z. took the day off work, was
passed out in his favorite chair, sleeping off a liquid brunch...
... startled awake by a noise out the side of the house...he
did not know that Auto Trader was coming to shoot the trans am photo...
... grabs his rifle, goes out the back door, peeks around
the corner down the driveway...
... Teresa raises her camera to shoot a photo, George
mistakes Teresa for a trespasser with a weapon....BANG !...OH NO,.....
... George calls his old friend in LE, Gene
Kusche..."help me man, it was an accident, I thought she was stealing the
car..."..." neighbors never saw or heard anything..."
... "the pencil" takes control of the situation,
tells GZ to sit tight, do not talk to anyone except me...I'll get back to you
shortly with instructions...do not do anything, do not touch anything, just
wait for my call...
...Kusche sends Andy out to Z. house, Andy calls Kusche with
all the info from Teresa's purse, PDA, planner, receipt book... Kusche realizes
who this victim is...calls DV, or TK, the situation is discussed, plans are
made...but they are playing it by ear, that's obvious...no way was this GONG
SHOW a pre-planned LE hit...
...we all know the patchwork piece-meal nature of the
evidence planting, and the ridiculously disjointed narrative of the alleged
crime...
... and the recusal of MTSO to avoid the appearance of
conflict, yet ALL the major items of physical evidence were "found"
by MTSO officers, people who were not supposed to even be present at these
sites ...
...GZ will keep his mouth shut, otherwise he'll spend the
rest of his life in prison for what was an accident...LE do not have to worry
about GZ, he killed her..
...I know it's a very unlikely scenario, but the per capita
murder stats in rural Wisconsin are equally as rare...and the
"accidental" manner of death answers the question of motive...
...MTSO had motive to discredit Steven Avery, I don't
believe they planned this Keystone Kops travesty...
The Z. scenario, as unlikely as it admittedly appears ,
actually addresses several important conditions...for me, anyway...
... the outrageously "coincidental" appearance of
this alleged crime, relative to the pending depositions...
...I do not personally think that time was nearly as
"tight" as many believe, regarding the Avery lawsuit...look at who is
controlling this whole thing, still to this day...
...these same people controlled everything back then as
well...
... hypothetically, "IF" none of this ever
happened, if the depositions/lawsuit proceeded through the system, these people
would've dragged it out, to the point where nobody was even paying attention,
page 6, buried in the local news...the public have a short memory, and a
shorter attention span...look what they did with Steven's DNA results
?...Culhane held onto those for a year ?...these people don't give a shit...
...but, as far as the lawsuit was concerned, the politicians
had gotten their photo-ops, the Avery bill was in the bag, the court of public
opinion had already judged the idiots of MTSO, Penny had already hugged-it-out
with Steven...the damage to reputations was already done, and forgotten,
really...
...and the monetary award was not going to be 36 million,
more likely around 6-7 million...significant, but NOT enough to break Manitowoc
County...far from it...
...and Vogel and Kocourek were already retired, I believe...
...so, what's to say that DV and TK were not actively
planning "something else", or they had basically resigned themselves
to the outcome, and just wanted to get on with life...and then this accidental
event provided an alternative ?...
...this explains the "reverse engineering" of the
obvious evidence planting, coerced statements, "lost" evidence,
convoluted narrative, complete intentional fuck-up of the investigation...no
way was this a pre-planned LE hit...
... the LE connection of GK to GZ is a reasonable
possibility when compared to other theories...GZ was scared shitless that he'd
go to prison, so he will STFU no problems...and GK would've collected the gun
as insurance...
...I just cannot imagine that LE would expose themselves to
Ryan, or Scott, or Bobby...I cannot imagine that LE would leave their
collective fate to any of those three...especially Scott and Bobby though, they
are Steven's FAMILY...
...it is possible that Bobby killed Teresa, but why ?...he
had a g/f, a job, a life...makes no sense to me...what?...one minute he's going
deer hunting... all of a sudden he becomes the crazy rapey murder boy ?...and
then he calls Scott ?... why would he tell Scott ?...Scott was Mom's
"new" bf, not exactly an old buddy... but then what?... they bring
all the evidence home ?...hahahaha, no.
Mr_Precedent at TickTockManitowoc
I suspect TH made it home and was killed there (accidentally or intentionally or a drug overdose). I think RH, MH and SB were in a secret drug business with MW (CASO drug investigator) and they called him for help instead of 911 because an investigation at the house would get them all in trouble. When MW discovered that TH had seen SA (via her phone or paperwork), he called Lenk and they planned to solve both departments' problems and be heroes by framing SA.
I think the RAV (and TH's body, if it was a drug overdose) were moved to Zander Road and set on fire (MTSO had attempted to frame SA for a stolen car fire there a few months before). AC was sent to plant the Zander Road sign, the folded plates, and panties - and to find the RAV and call it in (causing it to be entered into evidence).
But they discovered the recorded jail calls with Jodi and the crime scene had to be moved to ASY. At this point, I think Kratz had gotten involved and made himself "The Boss," orchestrating the rest of the planting (like a trial checklist, with little thought to how it would be found).
It wouldn't surprise me if the RAV in ASY is a (not-quite) duplicate (a burned car couldn't be hidden there), and the blood in the back of it is not TH's. That's why it wasn't opened at ASY and was covered and moved in the dark. I think RH got scratched with branches while covering it up in the dark (while getting instructions from LEO via his phone and the flyover video). TH's keys had either been burned or wouldn't fit the duplicate RAV, so a replacement was made, attached to the fob she'd never used, and planted at SA's. Bullets found around the garage were rubbed with DNA and planted later, after the floor was dusty from jackhammering. The voicemails were switched (Zipperer audio was put onto Janda video) - Zipperer was the one with the incomplete address. No wonder the CD is "lost" now.
I doubt the bones planted in SA's burn pit were TH's and there was clearly no giant fire there, especially involving tires. I think the TH DNA is from the personal items collected at her home and brought to ASY. I think the SA DNA is swabbed from his sink, the extra/stolen "groin swabs" (sweat/touch), and dripped from a non-EDTA vial that Lenk stole from the MTSO evidence lock-up (a standard blood draw includes 10 tubes of different colors with different additives). The search of ASY, instigated by RH, "untrained LEO", was put off until the duplicate RAV was in place. PoG was set up to find it, but was confused because it was a different color than she was expecting - and the VIN had been tampered with.
I think Ken Kratz wrote the (loopy Ks) SiKiKey letter, ordered the planting of items in the Janda burn barrel, faked computer searches, and quarry bones, so to trick ST, BJ, the BD boys, and JR into changing their stories to include a big fire, by claiming that SA was guilty and trying to frame THEM. If they didn't comply, they'd be charged as accomplices. That's why BJ was so wishy-washy and ST was so ecstatic when SA was convicted. Brendan was too confused to cooperate, so they had to knead it out of him. They hoped SA would confess to save his young, disabled nephew.
At a minimum, I think these people were knowingly involved in the coverup: RH, MH, SB, MW, Lenk, AC, KK (and probably TF, SC & DR). ALL of them would benefit from SA being convicted (or from allowing themselves to be blackmailed). At least one of them has been talking to KZ.
NOBODY ever dreamed that this case would have a worldwide audience. The mere suggestion of filmmakers having access to the courtroom and family made Kratz apoplectic and desperate to get their footage seized and the project tied up in legal red tape - more than once. He's now desperate to sway public opinion and points often to the contents of the documentary series, NOT the transcripts and evidence.
I could definitely be wrong about some or all of this, but ALL of the evidence fits this or a similar scenario:
- How MW knew the BJ appointment was SA on 11/3 without having received that info from Cingular
- Why unemployed nursing graduate was making frequent deliveries to construction worker SB
- How MH knew to grieve for TH before her car was found
- Why RH and MH were acting so squirrelly about being on ASY
- Why RH was working so closely with LEO & deemed "untrained LEO" & allowed on crime scene (he was probably familiar to CASO as a drug informant)
- Why RH, MH and SB were not investigated
- Ryan's scratches (murder and/or planting car)
- Only 1 of 10 colored tubes in unsealed evidence box
- TOTALLY IGNORED AS CRUCIAL EVIDENCE: Zander Road sign, SiKiKey letter, computer searches, quarry bones, large amount of blood in back of RAV, missing parts, damage and VIN tampering to RAV - all used for blackmailing witnesses, not helpful against SA
- Kratz's email to Culhane that Wiegert was checking 1985 blood - "what it was" (likely the preservative)
- Zero tire residue, plus unburned leaves & grass around burn pit
- SHOCK AND HORROR (what could be more shocking than TH's closest friends and brother and corrupt LEO working to get two innocent men convicted of a crime by using HIS closest friends and family against him?)
I think TH died at home of a drug-related accident or crime (maybe she ODed or threatened to expose their crimes), and that they called MW directly instead of 911 for help because a reported drug-related death or murder would get them all in trouble.
According to the Cingular rep's testimony, he couldn't have numbers for calls. I think they broke into TH's account to TRY to get her information so they'd have an explanation for how MW knew on 11/3 that TH had talked to SA - but it wasn't there. RH's phone calls were inquiries as to WHY they couldn't print out the info they needed, and the fake list was made to hide the fact that it wasn't available. They had either TH, her phone, or her completed paperwork between 10/31 and 11/3. Wiegert's statement that a reverse search of BJ's number led to SA (when we KNOW it could not have) is the first provable LIE in the case. He lied because he was involved in the framing from the very beginning.
For the record, I think TH made it home and died there - either by accident or attack. I suspect RH, MH and SB were involved in a secret drug business with MW (CASO drug investigator), and they called him instead of 911 because a drug-related death would get them all in trouble. When he learned TH had visited SA (via her paperwork, phone or stories told by RH, MH & SB), he knew they could solve two problems at once. He called Lenk and they decided to frame SA. The original crime scene was supposed to be Zander Road (where there was an attempt by MTSO to frame SA several months prior), but when they learned about the recorded jail calls with Jodi, they had to move everything to ASY.
ALL of the evidence, lies, and strange behavior fit this scenario - or one very similar to it.
If MW was involved in a secret drug business involving seized or controlled substances, he would benefit by not having to explain how his cohorts were involved in a drug-related death. I'm sure being heralded as a hero who cracked the case within minutes of the phone call and put SA away doesn't hurt, either.
[–]MMonroe54
That's assuming a drug connection....and you may as well say the same about Remiker. He was the drug investigator for Manitowoc County. Except of course Remiker was not co-leader of the investigation.
[–]Mr_Precedent
Remiker was likely involved, too. He and Wiegert had a couple of very interesting phone calls about the Plan. And he commented that the source of the tightly controlled drugs that killed CB was untraceable.
Perhaps Remiker is one of the people who has spilled the beans to KZ.
It all could have started as clean-up for a secret operation that went awry. I do think Kratz took over the orchestration of the planting once the crime scene was moved. That’s why the “evidence” reads like a checklist of what would be needed at trial with so little thought put into HOW it was found or treated.
[–]dugdiggins
It would explain the missing screws for the RAV4 dashboard (a place to store drugs during transport). It would explain the possible Martinez connection to ASY and the comments about a baggie (CASO page 980). It would explain the statements made by Jodi's stepfather (CASO page 1052).
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-293-passenger-door-view.jpg
[–]lilypadbitch
DR who more or less blew off the CB overdose death on Nov 3rd saying that it was not traceable to how that happened to her? He basically said that type of case was usually hard to solve. What?
From Harold Times
Published 11:00 p.m. CT June 7, 2014
Drug Death a Painful Memory
Cases such as this are challenging to investigate; often those responsible are reluctant to come forward because they know the family or don’t want to put a stop to their flow of drugs, he said.
“It’s like finding a needle in a haystack,” Remiker said. “And then obtaining enough evidence to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard we’re held to.”
So he just says “It’s like finding a needle in a haystack,” Well now we know they have no intent on investigating because they don't want the truth to come out to where the problem lies. In their own back yard is where it will lead. MW (CASO drug investigator)
[–]Mr_Precedent
Exactly.
Kratz was getting his drugs somewhere, too. It sure would have been a bad thing if his supplier(s) had been busted.
[–]lilypadbitch
Biggest problem in Wisconsin is Drugs and Alcohol. Drunkest state and their drunkest city
2. Wisconsin: 24.5% statewide; 26.5% in Green Bay
June 11, 2017
With the Zellnami in full effect, we've all read that KZ is pretty much pushing RH forward as "the killer". We also know that KZ's main goals is to get SA the freedom he deserves, pretty much whatever the cost.
I think she has a fairly good idea of who the killer might be, but she's also smart: accusing LE of evidence planting would be really hard to prove, and will probably not help SA.
With that being said: I think it's more likely that we're technically looking at two different crimes: 1) The murder of TH by "the killer" 2) The framing of SA by LE (yes, it's not what KZ suggests, but I think this is what actually happened)
These two crimes (unfortunately) worked out in both "the killer"'s and LE's favour. "The killer" did his thing and got away with it. LE got "their guy" who was about to take all their money and reputation.
It is my opinion that "the killer" pretty much did what KZ outlines, but he didn't plant the evidence. It's far more likely that LE did this step (way more opportunity, and motive). "The killer" simply aided by handing them important things on a silver platter.
"The killer" only wanted to get away with his crime. The easiest way would be to make sure he wasn't seen or regarded as the killer and no clues led to him. So he made sure that the biggest piece of evidence (the RAV4) was to be found somewhere else.
Any place would be a good place, but a salvage yard is perfect. "The killer" made sure that's the place the car would be found.
With that done, he really needn't worry too much, especially considering who owned and ran the salvage yard.
Enter LE: suddenly SA is the prime suspect, they got the car, but they don't have much else to go on. Nothing really seems to indicate TH was killed there, but he must have done it, because they found the car!
It is my opinion the LE at this point chose to make it a "home run", by planting evidence to make sure SA would be found guilty. They just killed two birds with one stone: they "solved" the murder and they evaded the huge lawsuit.
Bottom line: I think there are two different crimes and unfortunately they blended perfectly into each other.
Do I think "the killer" planted the evidence: no. I think it's too far fetched, a simpler answer is obtained by asking "who had time and motive". "The killer" already diverted attention, that was (at the time) enough for now. Why risk getting caught planting evidence if they're already focussing on someone else?
I strongly believe it was LE who wanted to seal the deal, but KZ chooses not to go there, as it won't help SA and honestly: it might even help her case suggesting "the killer" planted the evidence, as LE has shown they only care about themselves.
[–]MMonroe54
My "sometimes" theory is close but slightly different. I think the RAV was wherever TH was killed and "the killer" left afoot or in his own car. It had to be in some out of the way place, though, not unlike, a turn out or an infrequently traveled road or the Mirabel Caves or perhaps the cul se sac where a parked car would not be suspicious because a path led through the woods which people apparently often used. If so, I think LE found the car and the rest followed BECAUSE they really believed SA did it and wanted to make sure-- especially in view of the 1985 case -- that he didn't walk. But this too involves two different crimes: a killing and a framing. This is just one scenario that I occasionally entertain -- assuming SA did not do it -- as a "possibility". Much like KZ's theory about RH.
[–]TheDutchCoder
I see what you're saying, but without the car on his property, LE really had no reason to think SA was involved at all.
It's not impossible of course, but I think the car on his property was the nudge that both the killer as well as LE needed for this to escalate.
[–]Mr_Precedent
This is why I think RH and MW had something going on that made it necessary to frame SA to protect BOTH of them. Probably drugs. I think the 22 calls between RH and LE on the night the RAV was planted show it was a coordinated effort.
[–]TheDutchCoder
I didn't know RH had so many calls with LE on that day, is that in one of the Affidavits? (I haven't read all of them yet)
[–]Mr_Precedent
It's in his phone records from her very first motion, where she called him "Individual B."
[–]TheDutchCoder
Thanks!
Mr_Precedent posted at Reddit on June 16, 2017
I think (just a hunch that may be wrong) that RH, MH and SB were involved in selling drugs confiscated by (Calumet drug investigator) Wiegert (possibly Kratz, too), and that TH died at home, in the presence of RH, MH and SB, of an overdose or injury that would have gotten them ALL in serious trouble if a coroner learned she died at home and did an autopsy. I think they called Wiegert for help and he got the idea to call Lenk, frame SA, solve 2 big problems, and win some big awards and brownie points. I think Wiegert is deeply involved in the framing, and probably is the orchestrator of it until Sweaty Ken Kratz took over.
Kathleen Zellner is better off not pointing fingers at specific LE until she can provide all 3 elements necessary to overcome the Denny rule. She's GOT them ALL on Ryan Hillegas and only needs ONE alternate suspect (the most painfully obvious one) to show that CASO was negligent in its investigation. NOW, RH has incentive to spill the beans on EVERYONE ELSE who participated in the planting.ZellnerWinsAgain posted at Reddit on January 24, 2017
KZ's got the Court/County/State TRAPPED. If they deny exoneration AND a re-trial, she goes to the media and/or higher up (which is what they tried for years to avoid). If they choose re-trial instead of exoneration, KZ gets access to EVERYTHING they don't want her to have AND she will blow the lid off of Wisconsin. If they choose exoneration and then decide to NOT pursue other suspects, they've got the public and the media AND KZ's relentlessness to contend with. She/SA can't lose.
Anybody who doesn't think her strategy is EFFING BRILLIANT doesn't truly understand it.
It would be a conflict of interest for KZ to help RH, especially if she thinks he is involved in Teresa Halbach's death or the framing of Steven Aavery - and I think she definitely does. She gave him the perfect opportunity to spill the beans when she referred to him as "Individual B" in her previous motion. As far as we know, he did not bite.
KZ can only do what is in the best interest of her client. RH will need to get his own lawyer if he is charged.
If he is REALLY stupid, RH (and Sweaty Ken Kratz) can try to sue KZ for libel. Then she can divulge EVERYTHING she knows and mop the highway with him. That would be too delicious for words!
She has them ALL between a rock and a hard place. So clever!
Most people watching the crappy tabloid shows and appearances that Sweaty Ken Kratz does don't read much besides the menu at IHOP, so they're surely not going to read the transcripts of the trial and accompanying evidence, motions, etc. SKK is counting on the ignorance and laziness of those who only watch TV to help spread his lies.
She wasn't given access to ALL of the evidence for her own testing, therefore she COULDN'T provide some stuff she would have LIKED to include.
I think Wiegert is deeply involved in the framing and probably is the orchestrator of it until Sweaty Ken Kratz took over.
They didn't get the info it was Steven Avery from AT that night [Angela Schuster told then it was Barb Janda on Avery Road, giving LE her phone number not SA's]. So WHY did they zero in on him immediately? Because Wiegert was part of the setup.
They had established that TH went to ASY on 10/31, and after Andy Colborn reported back (he went to the Avery property around 6:30 on November 3rd and Steven told him that Teresa had been there on Monday between 2 and 2:30 p.m.), they knew SA was her contact there. MCSO would be well aware of him and his history, and certainly the highest authorities there might be eager to think he was responsible for this missing young woman. Talk about means, motive, and opportunity! Seriously, though, it's not a great reach to imagine why or how they focused on him, and that seems to have occurred even before the RAV4 was found, even though they said later, as I believe Remiker did, that he thought they were "barking up the wrong tree."
Interesting point of view. You believe that the only logical conclusion is that LE killed her. Certainly they had the most motive and the most to lose with the lawsuit so that is not unreasonable thinking. One of the things that keeps me from believing that is AC calling in the RAV4 plates on a personal cell phone on Nov. 3rd & lying about it. It was documented in the police records that they took possession of the RAV on November 3rd as Zellner stated. On AC's call to dispatch he sounds unsure about who's vehicle it is. Now that could have been a setup, but I don't believe that it was. He lied about it in court. Why lie if he found the vehicle somewhere other than ASY? As crazy as it might seem, this thing did fall into his lap. He notified JL, KP, & TK who were ALL on the chopping block in the civil suit. They hatched a plan to frame SA.LizardFoot83 posted at Reddit:
I believe MCSD was monitoring SA & it's possible they had JS in their sights to take out & frame SA but it fell through & the TH situation presented another opportunity.
The perfect situation for the MCSD opened up. RH was the guy who was calling her, stalking her & stopping by frequently. He had means, opportunity & motive. RH & TH last phone communication was a 13 minute call on 10/25. A long call for RH by comparison to his average call times. They talked every day or every other day for quite some time until the 25th.
TP said someone kept calling her at all hours. He tried to intervene but she said no & that SHE KNEW HIM (meaning the guy who was harassing her). RH & TH don't speak at all for 1 week until he attempts to call her on 11/1. It's a call to cover himself.
There was an altercation that occured between RH & TH most likely on 10/31. It very well could have been an accident even. RH has scratches all over his hands that look to be from nails. He kills her. AC finds the RAV somewhere. I'd like to know where his cell pings when he calls in the RAV on 11/3. I'd also like to know where RH cell and TH cells ping on 10/31-11-4.
AC contacts JL, KP, & TK when he finds the RAV & RH is identified by them as the killer. They tell him they will keep him from going to prision for murder if he helps them plant evidence at ASY along with his buddy SB. Not sure exactly how JR fits into this BTW.
RH & SB log in & out of ASY four different times when crucial evidence is found. They are civilians along with JR on the crime scene. RH signs into a log with a fake name. He states he was never on the crime scene. MCSD calls RH as "No Caller ID" 22 times on 11/4. Collusion to make sure their plans were aligned.
RH, SB & JR have no alibis that I have seen for 10/31. 11/1, 11/2, & 11/3. Need to know those. Need ALL of the cell records for those guys as well as the COMPLETE non-edited phone records of TH.
The mannerisms from key players (AC, RH, MH) are highly suspicious and signals from KK to them in the courtroom are obvious. KK uses his hands to his face & ear on a few occassions. In an unnatural movement he also rubs his fingers vigorously back & forth at the 30:20 mark of Episode 5 (The last person to see TH alive) when MH is talking about the voicemails. It's pretty obvious KK is coaching him with signals to say what he needs him to say.
The voicemails are the key & I believe key phone records were excluded to tweaked to fit KK's narrative & avoid incriminating RH. There is no way SA thought far enough ahead to delete multiple voicemails to buy time. It makes no logical sense.
RH is a smart guy & he could pull it off--especially when he could control the situation along with the help of the MCSD.
Go prove it KZ!!!
I've always suspected that possibly Ryan Hillegas and Scott Bloedorn (and maybe Mike Halbach) found the vehicle in/near the quarry on the evening of November 3rd while they were riding the backroads in the area they knew she had last been [based on getting her call logs from her online Cingular account and perhaps actually speaking to AutoTrader and determining her schedule]. Then they call law enforcement (maybe buddy "Jerry Pagel's" personal number), and Andy Colborn shows up and makes the license plate call to confirm the vehicle because he's not going to just trust the civilians claiming they found THE vehicle.Answer one simple question and solve this entire case. (self.TickTockManitowoc)
Then AC contacts James Lenk who decides they need to get the vehicle onto Avery Salvage Yard to connect it more substantially to Steven Avery. Who better to rope into assisting them in moving it than the civilians that found it? They already know it's there. If the civilians get caught moving it to the salvage yard, LE can hopefully keep their hands clean of any involvement.
Joshua Radandt could be connected to moving it in this scenario, as well, if it was found in/near the quarry. We know from news clippings that he played high school basketball against/with RH and SB. They call him, or he shows up at the quarry coincidentally or because he's checking out a call from a concerned neighbor about unusual activity. They ask if there is access to the salvage yard from the quarry and what the best way to move it would be. [Editor's Note: Joshua Radandt's friend posted at Reddit that they were at the deer camp from November 4-6th; the RAV4 was moved to ASY on the evening of the 4th, according to Zellner, and it was found the morning of 5th.]
I also believe it's very likely that the burnt remains were also found with the vehicle in/near the quarry and that's why JR gave the false statement about seeing a fire in SA's back yard. At that point, they may not have decided yet to move the remains, and with the vehicle on Avery property they could make a case for SA burning the body in the nearby quarry to avoid detection. Maybe they were only going to put the burnt personal items in the burn barrel.
Then they come up empty-handed after days of searching SA's property - no apparent crime scene, no blood, no evidence of assault, no direct connection of a crime to SA. They need something more substantial to make an airtight case against SA, so they call the guys working at the quarry and tell them to stop sifting the burnt material there and bring the sifting equipment over to SA's back yard (along with those bone fragments you found in the quarry). The plastic five gallon buckets that were collected as evidence were most likely used to transport the material from the quarry to the trailer fire pit.
"Did LE go to the trouble to find a cadaver or dig up a grave to frame SA?"
They were involved in the suspicious death of a young woman (Carmen Boutwell) the day TH was reported missing - they didn't have far to search IF they needed cremains to make a case.
"If dead, why not just use the body?"
It's possible they only found the vehicle and no body. Also, if LE were involved in her death (which I don't personally believe), it would be wise for them to cremate/incinerate the body to avoid any accidental discovery of forensic material pointing to themselves (or away from SA).
I'm more inclined to believe they found the burned remains (and vehicle) NEAR the ASY, convinced themselves immediately that SA was the culprit, and decided to move the evidence onto the Avery property so they could insure a rock solid case.
I think Joshua Radandt's false statement about the fire was set up with LE because they had already decided they needed to move the cremains to his property. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was JR who found the cremains and vehicle in the quarry area on November 3rd and called AC in (license plate call).
I'm still trying to figure out the JR connection. There are only two reasons for his involvement that make sense to me:
1) the vehicle and burned remains/materials were found in/near the quarry, by him or someone else and, being a business owner who is friendly with local LE, he helps them move the evidence and gives his false fire statement to support the planted evidence.
OR....
2) he committed, or was involved in, the crime itself and pointed LE in SA's direction to keep them from looking too closely at himself (he could have crossed paths with Teresa Halbach on the road if she went to George Zipperer's after leaving ASY because he lived nearby).
I also wouldn't be surprised if JR was involved in the crime itself and decided to point the finger at SA to avoid anyone looking too closely at himself.
by Lurker928
January 11, 2017
That simple question is, why isn't any of TH's blood in either SA's bedroom or garage. If anyone can answer that, then I believe they would know what actually happened.On the evening of November 4th, an anonymous tip came into WBAY-TV in Green Bay that Avery was the last person to see her alive, the news media picked it up from that station, and it was repeated verbatim. "Green Bay television stations reported Friday night (November 4th) that the appointment was to photograph a van being sold by Steven Avery."
I'll start by saying TH's blood should be in either SA's bedroom or garage. That is a fact regardless of what you think happened or who you think did it. I don't think there's room for even a little debate about that.
I know very few people here believe SA is responsible for TH's death. Regardless, allow yourself to believe for a second it was possible. The state's narrative focused on this occurring in SA's bedroom or garage, or both. Ask yourself why. If there wasn't proof that he never left the property, they would not have confined themselves to this narrative without blood evidence. They would have certainly left open the possibility that it happened elsewhere. They also couldn't say it happened out in the open on the property because there were too many people there. So the choices for the murder site are the bedroom or the garage. If you accept that, then TH's blood has to be in one of the two places. There is no way anyone, especially not SA, could have cleaned up either or both locations to the point where not a single drop of blood could be found. So if SA is responsible, then it had to happen in the garage or the bedroom, and there should be at least some of TH's blood in one or both places. It's not there.
So now take the alternative route. SA was not responsible for TH's death. If you accept that premise, then you also have to accept that someone or some people went to a lot of trouble to plant things and frame SA. They would have had to plant the RAV4, the bullet, the keys and SA's blood in the RAV4 at a minimum. All of those items at least come with some doubt. If, however, a couple of drops of TH's blood are found in the bedroom or the garage, it's game over. Very few people, if anyone at all, would be questioning any of this. It's not there. But, again, it should be. If someone is going to go to all of the trouble to plant all of the other stuff, then they know TH is dead and probably know where she was killed and who was responsible. Those are things someone would need to know before framing someone else for murder. It's way to risky to frame someone and then have someone discover the crime scene or the body elsewhere. The killers obviously would have had access to TH's blood. So there should be some in SA's garage or bedroom, even if he had nothing to do with it.
So it really comes down to this. What circumstances could exist where the planters/framers could know the cause of death and who was responsible, yet not be able to plant the victim's blood?
A possibility could be that the killer is not the same as the planter/framer. That would mean, however, that LE is almost certainly the planter/framer, they would have to know what really happened, and they would have to have a very good reason for protecting the actual killer. Maybe framing SA is enough of a reason, or they hired someone to do the killing. I don't know.
Another possibility is that the body was discovered too long after death to have viable planting blood available. i don't know all of the science behind what happens to blood after death, but i would imagine at some point too much clotting and discoloration would occur for the blood to be viable for planting.
I'm interested to hear any other possibilities that anyone can come up with. One way or another, there should be some of TH's blood in the garage or bedroom and there's not. If we find out why it's not there, we likely find out what happened.
[–]PetrichorGirl 11 points 14 hours ago
Here's a possibility: TH's body was burned before LE had a chance to extract blood. Some explanations for this could be:
LE acted in a panic, and hadn't fully thought it all through before they burned her.
The killer was someone besides LE, and they burned her body before LE became aware of her death and the opportunity to frame SA arose.
[–]TheRiddler1976 3 points 8 hours ago
Yep, exactly this. Probably the second option out of them
[–]thetalentedoppressor 11 points 16 hours ago
Recall that KK has completely backtracked from the original assertions he alleged both in the infamous press conference and at trial. In terms of SA's bedroom.... KK now says the documentary was biased because all that happened in SA's bedroom was BD "scratched her throat with the back edge of the knife". I'm not kidding.... but be warned if you haven't watched this interview or others with KK and were not aware of KK disgusting backtracking... it will make you very very angry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M27-4IptQZ4
[–]thetalentedoppressor 7 points 15 hours ago
Understandable... but its significant that it went from cut her throat and she didnt die... to now it is he simply scratched her throat and KK never expected to find any blood in his bedroom. Its a complete switch from the press conference that solidified a guilty verdict in the eyes on Manitowoc and WI in general at the time.
[–]JacksnakeJames 3 points 4 hours ago
I know people were saying the press conference was unethical, and it was, but also saying it was not criminal. My thought is that it would certainly be illegal if KK knew the narrative he chose to report, to taint the jury pool, was false. Perjury, conspiracy against SA's rights, and false imprisonment come to mind. KK is a giant douchebag, but he's not stupid. I can't imagine that he didn't know he was lying about what happened to TH, and where. He had to have known the evidence didn't support those theories, so I believe it was criminal, but I don't think it can be proven, yet. He did say that thing about stuff regarding the case that only he knows. WTF might that be? Narcissists often shoot themselves in the foot due to their hubris. I want to read his book, but I'm never going to buy it. I'll probably rely on this forum's members to point out the juicy stuff!
[–]stubbledchin 4 points 8 hours ago
Where does he get this "scratched her throat" story? There is no evidence of it, and no remains to even demonstrate a scratch exists. No knife recovered to scratch with. I can only presume he is pulling things out of thin air. A lot of what he says seems to have a fetishistic air to it. Everything is sweaty and involves sex games. Says something about the man himself.
[–]JacksnakeJames 3 points 4 hours ago
He is a known drug addict and sexual predator of domestic abuse victims!
[–]radarthreat 3 points 2 hours ago
It wasn't even part of BD's "confession," as far as I know. So where's he coming up with this stuff? His own syphillitic mind.
[–]JJacks61 3 points 15 hours ago
I think he and fallon have changed theories several times since Kratz had his first fantasy press conference in March 06.
[–]LikesToSmile 9 points 9 hours ago
I was even more interested in the blood that was in the trailer.
To follow the prosecutor's theory, SA murders TH and then proceeds to perform the world's best clean up job. Every single drop of TH blood is gone, amazing really.
After all that hard work, he sees the blood on the bathroom floor and thinks meh that's definitely mine, I'll just leave it.
[–]LikesToSmile 3 points 8 hours ago
SA's blood was in the trailer. KK stated that he spent hours cleaning and bleaching all the blood. If that were even remotely true, why would he leave his own blood lying around.
[–]bennybaku [score hidden] an hour ago
I definitely believe the Rav4 is the murder scene. The question is where? IT would definitely be risky for SA to kill her in his driveway.
[-]magiclougie
Bobby is the key to the state's narrative that Teresa approached Steven's trailer and must have gone inside or was forced inside. In his statement he says he was watching her through the window taking pictures of the van, which was parked by the far entrance to his circular driveway. He then says he saw her finish and walk toward Steven's trailer, but from his vantage point he wouldn't have been able to see her walk very far. He turns away from the window to get his bow and jacket to go hunting as Steven is approaching her (she would be on the other side of the van), per his statement. Teresa walked forward a little ways to meet Steven as her approached to pay her $40 cash for the ad. Bobby says 3-4 minutes passed before he get his bow and jacket and goes outside to his truck, which is parked on the other end of his home and circular driveway, near his garage. This would be the 3-4 minutes that Steven was with Teresa. During the 3-4 minutes that Bobby is getting his bow and jacket, Steven is at Teresa's RAV4, as she sits inside it and reaches over to get an AutoTrader magazine (he tells her he doesn't need a receipt), which she hands to Steven. Teresa shuts her door and Steven walks back inside his trailer to put the magazine on his desk. Bobby exits his home and goes to truck. He sees Teresa's RAV4 but not her becuase he's too far away to know whether or not she is in her vehicle. He does not see Steven. Steven comes back outside five minutes later. He sees that Bobby's truck is gone and that Teresa is at the end of Avery Road, signaling to turn left onto HWY 147.
[–]keystone66 14 points 16 hours ago
For the record, I don't believe that we have credible information to confirm that Avery's blood was in the car. We have a state crime lab that lacks credibility, with tests performed by a biased technician who admitted to contaminating her samples while "training" people. All this after the state argued against the defense observing her work because restricting access to the lab was necessary to... avoid contamination.
None of the blood evidence is credible, and that's all before you consider that the state had poorly controlled samples of Avery's blood on hand and accessible to the agency Avery was suing for tens of millions of dollars.
Zero credibility.
[–]LizardFoot83 9 points 14 hours ago
IIRC, SC was also reprimanded during a lab review around that time for keeping dna samples/materials in the cabinet of her desk, rather than the secure dna area of the lab.
[–]bennybaku 3 points an hour ago
AND what does she do? She contaminates the bullet with her own DNA. She was a perfect fit for this investigation.
[–]FakedBlood 7 points 16 hours ago
I was wondering if the killer left her car with the blood in it and the body was taken somewhere else and maybe destroyed. This would mean there was no DNA of hers except what was in the car. Then LE found the car the day she was reported missing and moved it from the original location. There were plenty of news casts the first few days about her last known location being at SA's. The killer thought this was a great opportunity to deflect the blame. They went back to the car but it was gone so they planted the bones and phone. I can't think of anyone other than LE would have access to SA's DNA to plant it in the car and have access to the trailer to plant the key.
[–]Messwiththebull 4 points 11 hours ago
Too risky. If they didn't have the body she could've been alive still and turned up, or a body turn up later after planting bones and forging lab results.
[–]magilla39 7 points 15 hours ago
You have presented a false dichotomy. There are many other things that could have happened.
For one, SA could have driven TH somewhere else in her RAV4 after striking her with a blunt object. KK didn't like this theory, because he would have had to admit that evidence was planted, which would undermine his entire case. As a consequence, he needed a theory that didn't include planting, and presented a totally unbelievable narrative.
Also, LE did not have access to TH's blood to plant it in SA's home, and the perpetrator did not have access to SA's home when he or she had access to her blood. This explains why her blood is not planted in the trailer or garage. LE did have access to TH's DNA from her personal effects and her pap smear slides, but not blood, and somehow her DNA was found on a bullet fragment in SA's garage without the presence of visible blood.
[–]Lurker928[S] 6 points 13 hours ago
Not so sure SA could have left the property. How would that fit in the timeline? That would then present a whole new set of questions, starting with why he would bring every piece of evidence to his own back yard if it was already off the property.
I also don't think the phone pings would have been such a problem for the prosecution if they could have fit SA leaving the property into the timeline.
The second part of what you are saying is kind of what I was getting at. The people that had access to SA's garage and bedroom could not have had access to TH's blood or her blood would be in those places.
So does that rule out LE as the killer? If so, then we're back to someone else did this and these are the luckiest LEOs on Earth. LE hired someone else to do it (someone who managed to keep a bunch of her personal belongings to plant but couldn't be bothered to keep some blood) or there was something about her blood that they didn't want the defense to find if they had a chance to independently test it.
[–]magilla39 4 points 8 hours ago*
What is the evidence that establishes your timeline that excludes SA from leaving the property to hide the RAV4 with TH in it until the wee hours? He had plenty of opportunity and means to do that.
The prosecution's timeline was designed to make her phone go dead on SA's property. They didn't address the cell tower numbers associated with the calls at all. We will see where this leads when KZ presents the new evidence from the cell tower investigation.
The original perpetrator(s) had access to TH's blood up until the time he or she or they cremated her remains. The LE people with a motive were the MTSO and MT County DA personnel. They had the strong motive and should be strong suspects for arranging or performing the bad acts to TH. They also are strong suspects for moving the RAV4, planting the blood in it, and planting the key.
But there certainly are other suspects and evidence suggesting LE was simply lucky. This case has no shortage of suspects that were inadequately investigated.
But please remember, the need to plant evidence in SA's home didn't arise until F&W and KK brought BrenD's ridiculous confession into their theory of the case. This is four full months later, and this is when the magic bullet with no visible blood and with TH's DNA is found under an air compressor. This very well could be F&W's doing; they we're vested in the interrogation of BrenD.
Jumping to conclusions and forming false dichotomies to deduce things will not help solve this crime. You first need to identify what the reliable evidence is, and then see where it leads. That's why KZ law has a much better chance then we do. They have access to the full discovery package, and they performed their own independent investigation that may include quite a bit of new evidence.
Between what was planted and what was contaminated at each of the suspected crime scenes, there is almost nothing that can be ruled out. The trial may be over, but the investigation has just begun.
[–]Lurker928[S] 2 points 5 hours ago
Still disagree with you on this, but I suppose we'll have to leave it at that. Forget the bedroom and the garage. A drop of blood anywhere at ASY would have ended discussion on the case. It's not there.
There's a reason the prosecution kept a narrative of SA staying on the property. There had to be proof of that, or they would not have stuck with it. And remember, Brendan's "confession", what you call the need for there to be blood in the garage or bedroom, was the prosecution's narrative. They invented it. Why do that with no evidence? They absolutely knew prior there was zero evidence in either the garage or the bedroom before they fed him that story. I believe they did that because there was some sort of definitive proof he never left and they needed to discredit the one witness he had while he was home. KZ already has proof he never left. I believe the prosecution had the same proof.
Anyway, I'm just pointing out that they didn't bother planting the best evidence. That leads me to believe they didn't have access to it. Which leads me to believe they didn't kill her. And since I don't believe in miracles (at least not when people who can make their own miracles are involved), I also don't believe this just fell into their laps. I'm left with they hired someone. And yes, the hired hand likely destroyed the body prior to LE having access to it to plant cremains.
[–]magilla39 1 point 5 hours ago
That's a reasonable working theory, now find some evidence to prove it. It's not much different from one put forth by u/foghaze.
[–]TheRiddler1976 4 points 4 hours ago
My personal 'theory' is that the killer and the planter are different.
I don't think the police killed TH, but I think they found her body or something and decided to frame SA - maybe they even thought he did it and tried to provide enough evidence to seal their case
[–]alexthingy 3 points 3 hours ago
I don't think the police killed her either, if they did they'd have done a better job at planting evidence. They would've kept some of her blood to plant in the trailer or garage or even in the area, but none of it was there. Someone else killed her, and LE made sure that SA was the one who appeared as the killer, they saw an opportunity.
I just don't see why Manitowoc would do this to SA when there is reasonable doubt to suggest that he's innocent, and especially after they got it wrong last time. That's a huge risk to put away an innocent man a second time.
[–]S_Hollmes 4 points 15 hours ago
Yes - these mirror my thoughts! It could be that someone from LE killed TH and left the framing to the pawns (wanting to distance himself from the investigation).
Also, with the Janda's living next door to SA, I doubt they would've been able to move TH body from his trailer to garage into RAV, out of RAV into burn pit without going unnoticed. At least there would've been a great risk of discovery.
[–]JJacks61 3 points 15 hours ago
PB, the investigator for the defense said it clearly. There would have been a massive amount of blood wherever this happened. No way it happened in the trailer or garage. There would have been blood everywhere.
I think it's important to understand how much manipulation that Kratz press conference had on the public, AND how often this was on local TV. Even after the trial, LOCAL news waited for the verdict, and broke in regular programming to report it.
I believe the intent was to slander SA from the very beginning and Kratz used that to great advantage. He could have said SA and BD (insert graphic Kratz fantasy) carried this out in downtown Manitowoc and some people would have bought it.
[–]Messwiththebull 3 points 11 hours ago
They burned her to destroy and evidence of them being the real killer and didn't think they would need her blood. Just plant the Rav, bones, and a key. Spread his dna around and presto, conviction.
[–]TheRiddler1976 3 points 9 hours ago
and guess what.....it worked
[–]Mr_Slippery1 3 points 4 hours ago
Absolutely great question, we have asked these same questions in the past and the logical answers are what has kept me with the belief SA did not kill TH.
These same answers tell us that LE also did not kill TH, if you think they did and the intention was to frame SA in the process they would have had her blood and they would have planted it at minimum in the garage on the bullet, etc. So I cannot see that being a possibility either.
So what we are left with is the most likely scenario, someone killed TH, she was struck/hit/shot near the back of her RAV4 based on the blood spatter on the swing gate, she was likely then wrapped up and put in the RAV4 based on the blood/hair marks in the back of the RAV4. She was then cut up (in the reports u/chromeomykiss posted) and burned.
I presume LE found her vehicle and a burn area, and from there I am not 100% sure what happened.
[-]magiclougie
That someone could have been a hitman, who possibly raped Teresa before killing her, so her body had to be destroyed to destroy all forensic evidence.
[–]bennybaku [score hidden] an hour ago
I am more inclined to believe someone else killed her, but who is it? What would be their MO? Paying attention to the bones does, anyway for me gives us a clue. NOT who it is but a possible motivation. The fact her bones were in the Janda burn barrels and Steve's pit might reveal, they, the killer/s wanted the suspicion on SA and his family. The question then is why? Could it be someone with a hatred towards the Avery's? They were jealous of SA coming into cash perhaps? Were they hoping this would ruin the Avery Salvage Yard's business?
"I remember being there [the NBC26 newsroom] with the fax came in," Aaron Keller recalled of Halbach's disappearance. "I remember holding it in my hand, looking at it and discussing it … The next major element in the story was actually broken by a competitor and, to this day, I'm not quite sure where the information came from. The next element of [the story] was that Steven Avery was the last person to have seen her, and that story was broken by WBAY-TV in Green Bay. And I remember we immediately called and confirmed it and had it on the air within a couple of minutes of when they had it on the air, but I want to know how they got that." Keller claimed that the station that obtained the info, WBAY-TV, had close ties to authorities. "It paints a picture, potentially, of the media environment in Green Bay at the time. Channel 2 in Green Bay was the legacy station that had primarily been number one through most of its existence, and to this day, they are pretty tight with the law-enforcement community," he shared. "We [employees of the NBC affiliate] were mostly outsiders. They were insiders. We were more apt to ask really tough questions because we weren't friends with people from elementary school who worked other jobs in that area. So there were some elements of stories that the NBC station was not able to break because we didn't have entrenched friendships." Source: November 4, 2005, 6 PM News StoryCorporate media had a major roll in this wrongful conviction. If you're not on the jury, all the info you're getting is whatever the news media and corrupt prosecutor is feeding the general public, who at the time didn't have the benefit of hindsight and the plethora of case records, documents, and time that we all have now. All too often the media certainly encourages a certain rush to judgment.
The following is part of Ryan Hillegas' testimony under direct examination by Ken Kratz.
Q. Well, Friday night [November 4, 2005] you said that you were making some maps; how was that done?The following is part of Ryan Hillegas' testimony under direct examination by Ken Kratz.
A. Satellite imagery off the internet mostly, otherwise just Map Quest.
Q. Maps of what?
A. Maps of, you know, the areas we wanted to search. We kind of blew up smaller portions so you could see the roads better and county highways out in the Manitowoc area near the Averys, any kind of county highway. Basically, we tried to cover anything from Hilbert to Green Bay, all the way to the lake. Pretty much covering as much land as we could.
Q. Well, this was a citizen search effort; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, family members and friends and very -- very much so just a citizen effort coordinated by you; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you something, Mr. Hillegas, why would you center or why would you direct some of your search efforts around the Avery property?
A. Well, mostly for the fact that, you know, the media had covered so much of it. You know, all you heard about was around the Avery property. And I believe at that point we had known that, you know, her last kind of whereabouts were in that neck of the woods.
Q. So even as an untrained law enforcement officer, you knew to look for the last place she was seen alive; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. It didn't strike you as being unfair to Mr. Steven Avery, did it?
A. No.
Q. And you were asked about why you directed any efforts towards the Avery area, on direct, by Mr. Kratz; do you recall that?
A. Yes
Q. And I believe you said it was because the media had the information and the media was already seeming to focus on Mr. Avery; is that right?
A. I don't think it was Avery himself. I believe that it was just that we knew her last whereabouts were out in Manitowoc County.
Q. Okay. And had you seen any interviews with Mr. Avery at that point, or any news people coming down and talking to people on the Avery property?
A. I don't know if I had seen any interviews. I guess I was out putting posters up most of the day.
Q. But you did know that by that time the word was out in the media that the last known place, at least that they thought the last known place had been at the Averys, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And so that would have been true for anybody's knowledge, not just yours, anybody watching the media?
A. Yes.
My Roadblock with LE as Murderers Theory
submitted by pinkynarfs at TickTockManitowoc
Although I understand the tendency to think LE killed TH, I keep hitting a wall with a couple aspects of the theory. Obviously the mannies (my new nickname for MTSO, apologies to male nannies whom I have the utmost respect for) are idiots, but I still find it hard to believe they could be such boners that they would:
1) cut up and burn TH to the point of cremains, thus potentially eliminating a DNA match. LE more than anyone would know that DNA match would be crucial to ensure a conviction. Why go through the hours of burning? This seems like hiding evidence, not preparing evidence for planting.
2) dispose of her purse, wallet, and original keys. These are the strongest pieces of physical evidence they could plant, because she would certainly have had them the day she died.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
I don't think LE killed her. I don't think they ever saw her body.
But there is more circumstantial evidence they planted all incriminating evidence. Every single thing had question marks.
Blood in Rav4...lo and behold. MCSD has his blood
Her key with his DNA. Not her car keys mind you. Just the spare key. His DNA? lo and behold. MCSD has his DNA
The bullet with her DNA? Lo and behold. They had her vibrator, 7 pairs of her panties, and her pap smear. Know what they didn't have? Her blood. That's why the bullet was not allowed to be said to have blood on it. Blood was never mentioned as being on the bullet in prelim or trial testimony.
Her license plates? Question mark...why was an officer of MCSD calling her plates in 2 days before the car is found. Why does her license plates seem more important in a call to Calumet by a "citizen" than if her body is visible?
Her items? The jeans? 1 rivet is found in a fire that decimated her bones..yet is clean enough to be able to read "Daisy Fuentes"..one rivet. Her phone? Odd how police had her ex-bf so quickly find a motorola box in her house. same kind of phone they found in the burn barrel.
Her bones? One tooth..not even a whole tooth. A fragmented tooth. All her bones there? Of course not..They find some in the pit, some over there..some over there.
All all this found...by cops who were "to supply resources as the investigating police force needed, due to a conflict of interest"
No, there's more circumstantial evidence they planted than there is real evidence Avery killed her.
[–]Mr_Precedent
1) Agreed. SA's conviction would be much more certain if they had left an intact body IN the RAV. I think it was burned beyond recognition BECAUSE it contained evidence that implicated someone or something else (or because it wasn't her body).
2) All of the items that TH would have removed from her car IF SHE HAD MADE IT HOME were missing: purse, keys, phone charger, cash, paperwork.
If she died at home (say, from a drug overdose) - and the people who gave her the drugs (say, RH, MH and SB), called for help from the source of those drugs (say, Wiegert the big drug bust detective from CASO or Remiker the big drug bust detective at MTSO), and that source wanted the drugs to remain untraceable (say, the way CB's drugs remained untraceable) - PLUS be a big hero for saving Manitowoc County from a giant law$uit - they all might be inclined to help plant evidence at ASY and cremate the body so to any hide drug evidence.
To me, the most suspicious thing is that Wiegert knew BJ was SA on 11/3. That's not information he could get from a reverse search (as he claimed) or from Cingular (they don't provide incoming numbers) - and DP testified that she hadn't told him that. Unless SA was being watched by LEO (possible), the only other place that information could have come from (on 11/3) was Teresa or her phone. The devil is in the detail.
I thought about how TH's brother was 'grieving' before anything was found, how deeply RH was involved in the investigation as "an untrained LEO", how RH, MH and SB were allowed into a closed crime scene and never investigated as suspects, despite being the 3 men closest to her and most likely to notice and report her missing, and how sketchy their interviews and testimony were. I think they know what happened to her.
IF TH made it home (in the presence of RH, MH and SB) and something happened to her there, and it was covered up with the assistance of LEO, it would qualify as "shock and horror." All roads lead to Teresa's door.
RH was unemployed but made visits to drop stuff off to SB, who was rumored to be selling drugs. IF they happened to be in cahoots with CASO drug enforcement (Wiegert), I can see why nobody would want a death via drugs to be reported. I can see why Wiegert might consider SA the perfect scapegoat and involve Lenk - solve the big murder case AND save MTSO from an expensive lawsuit! Get the boys to move the RAV so any fingerprints are explainable. Cremate the body so drugs can't be detected. Have Lenk steal a vial of blood and plant a magic key, bones and electronics. Deny being on the property. Be vague about when you last saw her. Threaten/blackmail the Avery family so they don't interfere. Please the higher-ups AND collect awards.
Only FIVE people would know the truth - MW, JL, RH, MH and SB - and ALL of them would have a reason to keep their mouths shut.
Yes, there are a lot of IFs. And I could absolutely be wrong. But this is the only scenario (so far) that explains pretty much everything (to me).
submitted by pinkynarfs at TickTockManitowoc
Although I understand the tendency to think LE killed TH, I keep hitting a wall with a couple aspects of the theory. Obviously the mannies (my new nickname for MTSO, apologies to male nannies whom I have the utmost respect for) are idiots, but I still find it hard to believe they could be such boners that they would:
1) cut up and burn TH to the point of cremains, thus potentially eliminating a DNA match. LE more than anyone would know that DNA match would be crucial to ensure a conviction. Why go through the hours of burning? This seems like hiding evidence, not preparing evidence for planting.
2) dispose of her purse, wallet, and original keys. These are the strongest pieces of physical evidence they could plant, because she would certainly have had them the day she died.
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
I don't think LE killed her. I don't think they ever saw her body.
But there is more circumstantial evidence they planted all incriminating evidence. Every single thing had question marks.
Blood in Rav4...lo and behold. MCSD has his blood
Her key with his DNA. Not her car keys mind you. Just the spare key. His DNA? lo and behold. MCSD has his DNA
The bullet with her DNA? Lo and behold. They had her vibrator, 7 pairs of her panties, and her pap smear. Know what they didn't have? Her blood. That's why the bullet was not allowed to be said to have blood on it. Blood was never mentioned as being on the bullet in prelim or trial testimony.
Her license plates? Question mark...why was an officer of MCSD calling her plates in 2 days before the car is found. Why does her license plates seem more important in a call to Calumet by a "citizen" than if her body is visible?
Her items? The jeans? 1 rivet is found in a fire that decimated her bones..yet is clean enough to be able to read "Daisy Fuentes"..one rivet. Her phone? Odd how police had her ex-bf so quickly find a motorola box in her house. same kind of phone they found in the burn barrel.
Her bones? One tooth..not even a whole tooth. A fragmented tooth. All her bones there? Of course not..They find some in the pit, some over there..some over there.
All all this found...by cops who were "to supply resources as the investigating police force needed, due to a conflict of interest"
No, there's more circumstantial evidence they planted than there is real evidence Avery killed her.
[–]Mr_Precedent
1) Agreed. SA's conviction would be much more certain if they had left an intact body IN the RAV. I think it was burned beyond recognition BECAUSE it contained evidence that implicated someone or something else (or because it wasn't her body).
2) All of the items that TH would have removed from her car IF SHE HAD MADE IT HOME were missing: purse, keys, phone charger, cash, paperwork.
If she died at home (say, from a drug overdose) - and the people who gave her the drugs (say, RH, MH and SB), called for help from the source of those drugs (say, Wiegert the big drug bust detective from CASO or Remiker the big drug bust detective at MTSO), and that source wanted the drugs to remain untraceable (say, the way CB's drugs remained untraceable) - PLUS be a big hero for saving Manitowoc County from a giant law$uit - they all might be inclined to help plant evidence at ASY and cremate the body so to any hide drug evidence.
To me, the most suspicious thing is that Wiegert knew BJ was SA on 11/3. That's not information he could get from a reverse search (as he claimed) or from Cingular (they don't provide incoming numbers) - and DP testified that she hadn't told him that. Unless SA was being watched by LEO (possible), the only other place that information could have come from (on 11/3) was Teresa or her phone. The devil is in the detail.
I thought about how TH's brother was 'grieving' before anything was found, how deeply RH was involved in the investigation as "an untrained LEO", how RH, MH and SB were allowed into a closed crime scene and never investigated as suspects, despite being the 3 men closest to her and most likely to notice and report her missing, and how sketchy their interviews and testimony were. I think they know what happened to her.
IF TH made it home (in the presence of RH, MH and SB) and something happened to her there, and it was covered up with the assistance of LEO, it would qualify as "shock and horror." All roads lead to Teresa's door.
RH was unemployed but made visits to drop stuff off to SB, who was rumored to be selling drugs. IF they happened to be in cahoots with CASO drug enforcement (Wiegert), I can see why nobody would want a death via drugs to be reported. I can see why Wiegert might consider SA the perfect scapegoat and involve Lenk - solve the big murder case AND save MTSO from an expensive lawsuit! Get the boys to move the RAV so any fingerprints are explainable. Cremate the body so drugs can't be detected. Have Lenk steal a vial of blood and plant a magic key, bones and electronics. Deny being on the property. Be vague about when you last saw her. Threaten/blackmail the Avery family so they don't interfere. Please the higher-ups AND collect awards.
Only FIVE people would know the truth - MW, JL, RH, MH and SB - and ALL of them would have a reason to keep their mouths shut.
Yes, there are a lot of IFs. And I could absolutely be wrong. But this is the only scenario (so far) that explains pretty much everything (to me).
