March 1, 2016
"burn pit...obviously altered...had we been working the scene from start to finish, there would likely have been more thorough photo record"
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-160-Email-Between-Fassbender-And-Ertl.pdf
[–] harmoni-pet
the entire quote?
Had we been working any of these scenes from start to finish, there would have likely been a more thorough photo record; however, under the circumstances, we were merely able to provide technical assistance, rather than complete scene processing.That paints a much clearer picture of what John Ertl (forensic scientist from Crime Lab, not a coroner) is saying. Then if you look at the top paragraph, he explains the circumstances.
In regards to the burn pit, our involvement began with a request to use our sifting equipment. The scene had obviously been altered at that point.Here, 'altered' can mean all sorts of things. If you're keen on the planting, you might think that means evidence corruption. If you read Sturdivant's testimony about how the bones were found, he says the dog had walked through the pit. The pit could be considered altered from foot prints, or when Sturdivant initially inspected the pit and found bones.
[–] carbon8dbev
Had the coroner been called as required there would likely have been a "more thorough photo record."
Meh. It's their job to enforce the law, not abide by it, amirite? Good honorable family men with honest moral fiber are apparently bound only by God's law, not the State's or some shit.
(1g) A sheriff or police chief shall, immediately upon notification under sub. (1) or s. 948.23 (1) (b) of a death, notify the coroner or the medical examiner, and the coroner or medical examiner of the county where death took place, if the crime, injury, or event occurred in another county, shall immediately report the death to the coroner or medical examiner of that county.
I hate that I pay taxes to help keep these clowns employed.
[–] Refukulator
It's their job to enforce the law, not abide by it
Good one.
[–] harmoni-pet
Where did they break the law then? Why were there no charges pressed?
Forgetting to take photos of bones isn't a crime to my knowledge. They didn't even know if the bones were human when they called Crime Lab to sift through the burn pit. In hindsight we know that they should have called the coroner because they turned out to be Teresa's. But at the time, they were collecting bones as evidence while simultaneously searching for Teresa's body.
[–] kaprikorny
but you would think with such a huge conflict of interest they would have documented EVERYTHING! Better to have evidence of nothing than to NOT have evidence of something.
[–] nothinbuttherain
Sure, they didn't know. That's why you photograph the hell out of it - because you don't know. You can't say "well, we'll just put them back and take pictures now that we know this is significant."
As to why no charges were filed, I think it's pretty clear that those folks ain't charging each other with anything. And you could very well be right that unless it could be proven it was intentionally omitted it's not an actionable offense. That doesn't mean it's not wrong and sloppy.
[–] skatoulaki
This is one of the biggest WTF parts of this case to me. I can't think about LEOs planting evidence - the blood, the key - because it's just too egregious for me to even consider...but the burn pit processing completely blows my mind. If these guys, who are supposed to be professionals, who were "worthy" enough to receive awards for their handling of this case, are examples of award-winning investigators, then we have all lost.
You can't even say, "dude, you watch too much CSI...that's not how they process this kinda thing" because actually, what should have been done here - photos, coroner, forensic anthropologist, flagging or a grid - that is basic crime scene investigation. Basic. And they fucked it up.
[–] pm_a_surprise
And no rubber residue on the bones from a ten tire fire? But police plant evidence. I know it's difficult to accept for some. But it is a reality that there are bad cops and bad das. To think otherwise, is honestly, juvenile. It's to believe what we were taught in grade school about people in authority. Don't question.
[–] skatoulaki
Right? And the bone fragments that were "intertwined" with the steel belt wires. Really? Where? Do you have a photo? No? Oh, we just have to take your word for it? That's not how this works!
[–] pm_a_surprise
Exactly! So many things about this case we have to take their words for. And so many of them have been shown to be dishonest in some way.
[–] hos_gotta_eat_too
Steven Avery had 18 years to think about bad cops.
[–] s_wardy_s
The bones and the lack of fire pit photo and residue evidence are the smoking gun. The planted key, rav4, SA blood in rav4, and the bullet are all just accessory to the dumb founded clues which all point to LE and in particular Lenk and Colborn as suspect. But the bones? are we led to believe SA burned TA and then collected her bones and neatly placed them in an evidence box, and delivered them to the county evidence locker. The first photo evidence of said bones are photos of bones in a box.
[–] AlpineBlues
These friggin people. They have no conscience left. You look at them in the courtroom, you can see they are like robot wreckers of lives. Watching them sweet talk Dassey with something that resembled fatherly love, right into his own destruction.
We would be doing them and the country a huge favor if we put them behind bars. Nothing short of a lengthy sentence would help them self reflect enough to see just how evil and destructive they have become.
Help them Zellner.
[–] MnAtty
God what a mess.
[–] Classic_Griswald
Yeah, they had a coroner ready to go with a proper team to process it. Instead mail it to the lady out of town....
Total 'we didn't mean to', especially when 2 county officials called the coroner to warn her to stay away.
[–] bluskyelin4me
What is beyond crazy is in a hearing on a pretrial motion, Factbender testified that in homicide investigations they "always used the Crime Lab" to process the scene. That, my fellow redditors, would be called perjury if he wasn't a law enforcement officer. "Come on...be honest ya gotta be honest... we can't help you if you're not honest..."
[–] innocens
These two should be under more scrutiny.
Who called them? What did they ask them to do?
[–] leiluhotnot
LE clearly destroyed their own smoking gun, slam dunk, gotcha evidence.
This was all about planting evidence, not about securing, or quality of the evidence. The jury just has to hear bones found next to Steven Avery trailer.
[–] Philly005
The bones were the one piece of evidence that would have been a dead giveaway to planting if photographed and handled correctly. It's no coincidence this was the one thing that was botched /mishandled/not photographed.
This to me is the smoking gun, and the bones should have never been allowed by the judge due to the obvious failure in procedure.
[–] hos_gotta_eat_too
10 to 1 says this email exchange alone is enough to have the bones thrown out as evidence.
[–] OpenMind4U 3
IMO, the funniest part is that these questions (with great concern) have been asked by Fassbender, himself /s
[–] AlpineBlues
Yeah. Nail him Fassbender. You moron.
[–] leiluhotnot
So we, the judiciary and law enforcement (LE) are left to judge and choose between LE corruption and releasing a guilty Steven Avery. Evidence ruined, so the question would always nag. Are we releasing a guilty man. Hopefully Zellner can put us at ease.
[–] HuNuWutWen
The absence of verifiable chain of custody documentation and photographic records, for the Avery burn pit and everything allegedly collected from it, renders that box of bones inadmissible, imo.
At least, there is a very strong argument to be made that the State has failed it's responsibility to reasonably handle the evidence, thereby making it impossible to verify the origin of the evidence. We simply don't know, and can't say, where it came from...nor can anyone on site...
The State cannot testify that specific bones in a specific box were collected from that general area, let alone where at the site they might have been specifically collected from, in fact they claim to not even know what they were handling, so even more reason to grid/contamination path/photo/log...but no...oops?
I see the nonsensical "excuse" that investigators on scene didn't "know" what they were scooping up with shovels...so...just kept on diggin'?...is that it?...
they had no fuckin' idea what they were lookin' for...
yet the entire area was cordoned off with crime scene tape?...warrants were in force?...and NONE of these fully trained/experienced crime scene investigators could follow the most basic SOP?...what is this, the fuckin' X-Files?....MULDER !!!
the reason it looks fucked up is because the cops fucked it up on purpose, so spare me the bullshit...Thanks.
[–] renaecharles
Makes perfect sense that they didnt take photos as the scene had already been tampered with- per Ertl's response. When a scene has been disturbed and they take pictures of the scene they can and probably will be used in a trial and if they are not photographed as they were found it could misrepresent the evidence; then the lab would be a secondary to evidence tampering. Fassbender had to know this from previous experience in cases but needed someone to blame for not documenting the scene correctly. He shot it back to him.
[–] DominantChord
Yeah, it is one of my favorite e-mails. I have been saying many times that this is probably one of the only instances where an official is critical towards another official.
He is essentially saying to Fassbender that he and his people fucked up his (Ertl's) ability to do a proper job.
Manitowoc County has some bad luck, it seems.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Pete Baetz, the investigator for the defense, the coroner for Manitowoc County told him this story:
She explained that she had arrived at the scene of a terrible traffic accident noticing that the sheriffs were “all shook up.” She quickly learned from witnesses that a pedestrian was hit crossing across a highway and was thought to be dead. When the Sheriff’s Department arrived with their sirens blaring, they accidently drove over the victim lying in the road. They made a hard effort to have Coroner write up the original traffic accident and ignore the fact that they had run over the victim. She refused and told them that if the autopsy showed that the victim was alive when they ran him over, that they she would report it that way.
Source: reddit. Here's a link to the audio of the interview:
http://audio.vegasallnetradio.com/COREY/CTT2016-01-21.mp3
This is the coroner who was barred from the scene of the burn pit, even though state law dictated her presence.
NYnix KLBMOM wrote at Reddit:
ReplyDeleteI don't know when the statute was enacted, but the Wisconsin Constitution outlines that it would be the county coroner's duty to remove the deceased's body from the crime scene and document with photos. It seems the initial investigation operated under the assumption that the bones had been already moved to the fire pit, and it was unecessarily to photograph them seeing as they assumed it was already a secondary crime scene. If it was the primary crime scene protocol would have said the coroner or someone should have documented the bone removal.
Michael M Barndt wrote:
The coroner was barred from the Avery property, no forensic anthropological field notes, zero photographs or documentation that bones were in fact in the fire pit. Just a box questionable bones, some detectives statements regarding found bone fragments and Ken Kratz's unlikely story. CCSD and MCSD seized that property for 8 days letting very few people inside. Anything could have happened there. I believe bones were never found on the property. Just a story they invented and sold to the public wholesale.
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/how-making-a-murderers-steven-avery-could-be-freed-without-a-trial-20160407?page=3
[–]HuNuWutWen 1 point 2 months ago
ReplyDeleteNot Dr. Eisenberg, or the Wis/ Crime Lab, or anyone else have produced conclusive proof that these PARTICULAR bone fragments...these PARTICULAR bone fragments...
...ya know, the "beveled" ones that everybody talks about as though they are valid evidence...everyone seems willing to accept that these fragments are belonging to Teresa Halbach...WHY ?...
...absolutely ZERO "proof" that these "bones" are even HUMAN...
... no DNA testing, nothing, nada , zilch, zip...what the fuck are we talking about here ?...
...these fragments, along with a chicken ulna/radius...
...yeah, you read that right...a fucking chicken wing...
...entered as exhibits/evidence...you can't make this shit up...
...what's even better is they actually took photos of this "evidence".
... still, there is absolutely no chain of custody documentation...
... nobody has a clue where any of this "stuff" even came from...
... Eisenberg returns after time away, to find a cardboard box on her desk, full of GAWD knows what, from GAWD knows where, delivered by GAWD knows who, handled by GAWD knows whoever..
...and this is the "evidence" we are all talking about ?...sorry, that's not how we do things in REAL-LIFE...
... Willis is such an asshole, words fail me when trying to describe my utter disdain for this "judge"...he just plain failed to uphold the Law, and Steven Avery is paying for Willis' incompetency...
... how the fuck did Willis allow this utter nonsense to take place in his courtroom?...
...so, before I get too involved with the ballistics of it all...
... I'm gonna need to see evidence that these "bones" are what the jury was led to believe they are...
... and so far, that has not happened...
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/6mkvo9/do_we_even_know_she_was_shot_with_a_22lr_round/
[–]localtruther 9
ReplyDeletewhy would you believe Ertl’s written report? There are so many instances like this with this case that I am getting to the point of not believing much at all of what was written by AC and Lenk for sure...
[–]Newthingstobeseen
Ertl looked the other way as much as the others and has been found unreliable or wrong on other cases which have been documented. If we don’t know Ertl personally then I find it always so surprising that we call him “honest” or a “true scientist” etc. without basic substantiation. There has been a whitewashing of him for 2 years now. We need to strip that away.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7pevwd/dakota_fire_pit/
[–]MMonroe54[S]
I think at some point Remiker realized he was supposed to get on board the Avery is guilty train. But both he and Wiegert apparently didn't understand that in the beginning.
should be an audit trail for report writing<< Especially since they are legal documents used in trials. Or at least the basis for how the person who wrote them testified. I think it should be agency policy that LE retain notes taken during an investigation, at least for a certain period of time. However, that might mean that LE would just stop taking notes since they wouldn't want to be pinned down to their first impressions.
[–]What_a_Jem
I think you're spot on. I actually have some sympathy for Remiker, as I think he tried to do the right thing, but was probably under enormous pressure from his superiors. Including the Manitowoc sheriff maybe?
What Wiegert did to Brendan is unforgivable though. If I was in his position, I would have quit, gone to the media and suffered the consequences. How he lives with what he did is a mystery to me!
[–]MMonroe54[S]
I think you may be right about Remiker. And I agree about Wiegert. That 9 am phone call on 11/5 between he and Remiker says a lot about him, imo. I think he was arrogant, thought he was smarter than most, and had adopted a kind of "world weary" persona that he thought went with his profession. I think he was quick to make assumptions and was neither a detail person or a deep thinker. I also think, which is also just an assumption, that he believed the ends justified the means, which might explain his and Fassbender's behavior with Brendan. These are all just 25 cent psychological theories, of course, of someone we know only from MAM and the reports and testimony in this case.
DNA Tests In Wisconsin Killing Raise Questions Amid Alleged Evidence Tampering
ReplyDeleteJudge Grants More Testing In Ken Hudson Case In Which Experts Are Puzzled By DNA Testing
Monday, September 4, 2017,
The allegations of evidence planting are among numerous charges of police and prosecutorial misconduct outlined in a series of appeals filed by Hudson. They include gaps in the police dispatch tape of the chase in which references to a stabbing are not there; a possible second vial of the victim’s blood taken during her autopsy that is unaccounted for; and the mysterious erasing of what police said was Hudson’s videotaped confession, which a forensic tape analyst said could not have been accidental. Hudson said he did not confess.
Police also testified they found a Remington hunting knife in Hudson’s truck — although their written reports conflict about whether it was on the passenger or driver’s side floor. Hudson’s DNA was not found on the knife and, his attorneys have charged, neither were his fingerprints. Hudson has alleged that police removed the knife still in its packaging from behind his seat and planted it on the floor, at some point smearing it with Van Dyn Hoven’s blood.
Former Outagamie County District Attorney Carrie Schneider, who handled the case on appeal, is now an Outagamie County Circuit Court judge. She declined to comment. Biskupic, who also now sits on the Outagamie County bench, declined comment, citing a Supreme Court rule that generally prohibits judges from commenting on pending cases.
Prosecutors have labeled the allegations of widespread misconduct "ludicrous."
In interviews for this story, two witnesses who saw Hudson before he was arrested and after Van Dyn Hoven was stabbed — Carnot and Kaukauna resident Matthew Brittnacher — said they do not remember seeing blood on Hudson. Both emphasized, however, they were not looking for blood. And Brittnacher said his view of Hudson was from "too far away." Carnot and Brittnacher said they are certain Hudson is guilty.
"here’s a lot of innocent people in prison," Brittnacher told The Medill Justice Project, "but he’s not one of them."
CONTINUED...
Blood Evidence Contradictory
ReplyDeleteQuestions about the blood evidence have long swirled around the case.
Hudson and his attorneys have discovered analysts found no blood on the steering wheel, gear shift or driver’s side floor in Hudson’s truck, although his right hand and left leg were streaked with red and a knife was found on the floor. And although Hudson stopped during the chase to unhook a boat from his truck — an episode witnessed by Brittnacher — analysts found no blood on the trailer or boat.
In a post-conviction hearing, Hudson testified he opened his truck door to Van Dyn Hoven, who then sat bleeding on the passenger side only to quickly flee when she saw Carnot coming out of the woods. Thinking Carnot was coming to attack him, Hudson testified that he sped off, striking him with his truck.
David Carnot says he found a grievously injured Shanna Van Dyn Hoven on Plank Road in Kaukauna on June 25, 2000. Photographed May 5, 2017, in Kaukauna. Dee J. Hall/Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism
In 2000, a Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory analyst found the red substance on Hudson’s left foot was not human blood. He found DNA from Hudson and Van Dyn Hoven on his right hand.
The analyst, John Ertl, testified at Hudson’s 2001 murder trial that he chose to test the sample from Hudson’s left foot because "it looked very bright, and it looked like there was a lot of blood there."
Ertl found no human DNA.
"That turned out to not be human blood," Ertl testified.
In fact, he said, there was no human DNA detected in two tests of blood samples from Hudson’s left foot.
In 2003, Ertl changed his testimony, saying in response to Hudson’s request for DNA testing that the blood found on Hudson’s left foot was human but that he could not detect any DNA in it. The state later reversed itself, saying in 2004 that there was animal blood found on Hudson and it could have come from fish he caught during his camping trip.
And although evidence photos show Hudson streaked by what appeared to be blood, the follow-up testing in 2005 found no DNA in the samples from Hudson’s right hand — where Ertl had earlier detected Hudson’s and Van Dyn Hoven’s DNA.
Ertl did not respond to multiple requests seeking comment about the conflicting results, which he himself has described in court as "weird."
https://www.wpr.org/dna-tests-wisconsin-killing-raise-questions-amid-alleged-evidence-tampering
[–]The-Last-American
ReplyDeleteThey have a policy of not photographing scenes that have been disturbed after discovery. They had one photographer, 7 agencies and at least 3 departments on the property, and someone started processing the pit before they took pictures of it.
It wasn't evident that the pit contained human remains until they started to sift through it, so in order to not have to explain in court why and how the pictures they are seeing have been changed from their original discovery, the policy in place is that they don't take those pictures, so they didn't.
[–]Serge72
They should of taken pictures of burn pit, basic cop investigation stuff that. No excuse at all can be given.
[–]lickity_snickum
> Because they didn't know if the bones were human until they were in the lab of a forensic anthropologist.
That doesn’t matter an iota and is quite possibly the most foolish excuse I’ve heard to date: photographic documentation should have been done EVERY.STEP.OF.THE.WAY
No excuses, no illogical reasons.
[–]lickity_snickum
> They have a policy of not photographing scenes if they have been disturbed
ERTL’S team has a CYA policy; that doesn’t excuse the original investigative team from not documenting every thing they did step-by-step.
There is NO EXCUSE.
No good reason.
No la-di-da bullshit reasoning by non-LE or non-medical professionals 12 years later makes it okay
They fucked up. Whether out of ignorance, deliberate action or a combination of the two doesn’t matter.
And they should all have to answer for it.
[–]DudeDog7
That sounds like a BS policy to me. Are you kidding me - LE takes photos of everything!
Cant_u_see[S]
show me the policy - because frankly i dont believe you.
[–]Nullspace_Nancy
WHY would someone process the pit before taking pictures? Who would think that, in a murder investigation, it would be logical to begin processing before acquiring confirmation of documentation?
[–]bashdotexe
It was Sturdivant from DCI that testified to finding the bones. Ertl from DCI decided not to take photos.
[–]ThorsClawHammer
> It was Sturdivant from DCI that testified to finding the bones
Yeah, that's what's weird. He's not the one who initially found them. Jost and Sippel were and Sturdivant was called over later to look. The bones are the only major piece of evidence I can think of where the person(s) who initially found it did not testify to it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/a9rpvf/can_anyone_who_claims_this_was_an_honest_and_fair/
[–]CaseFilesReviewer
ReplyDeleteThe press should watch and obtain all the details on how the fire pit is process then write an article on how competent people process crime scenes.
They will fully photo documenting the fire pit before touching anything and nothing will be touched awaiting the Medical Examiner's (ME) arrival. Clearly, competent people know a dead body isn't going to walk away thereby know there is plenty of time to wait for the ME.
The ME will determine who else should be brought to the scene. If the ME determines a Forensic Anthropologist is needed the fire pit would remain undisturbed awaiting the Forensic Anthropologist's arrival. Clearly, competent people know bones won't get up and walk away thereby know there is plenty of time to await the Forensic Anthropologist.
When Forensic Anthropologist are needed only himself/herself and his/her team would process the fire pit. When they find a remain they will photograph it before disturbing, they will then document it into evidence, and then they will put a numbered evidence marker where they found the remain. After they believe they've found all remains a photograph will be taken to document the location of where all the evidence markers had been placed. This provides photo evidence allowing the the body position within the fire pit to be presented in court at a later date.
It would be grossly incompetent to disturb the fire pit prior to photo documenting. It would be grossly incompetent to not call in an ME. It would be grossly incompetent to move anything in the fire pit prior to a ME's arrival. It would be grossly incompetent to not call in a Forensic Anthropologist when needed. At scenes where Forensic Anthropologists needed it would be grossly incompetent to disturb any remains before the Forensic Anthropologist arrives. It would be grossly incompetent to not use evidence markers to document were remains are found. It would be grossly incompetent to not take photos of where all the evidence markers were place. It would be disgustingly disrespectful to a victim and extremely grossly incompetent to rake up a victim then shovel the victim into a box. Clearly, anyone who does any of the grossly incompetent actions specified should be immediately fired as they're nothing more than a totally useless waste of taxpayers' money.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/aerb9s/weird_and_wonderful_things_in_wisconsin/