Why Did Loof the Bloodhound Alert on Teresa Halbach's Scent at the Cul-de-sac on Kuss Road? [Updated 6-12-2017]

The driveway to Joshua Radandt's deer camp is off the Kuss Road cul-de-sac. A field road from the Avery property leads to the cul-de-sac, and vice versa. Click here for a photo tour of Kuss Road, the driveway to Radandt's deer camp, and the area around the quarry by sweatyuncle_steve at reddit on May 29, 2017.

Included in Kathleen Zellner's August 26, 2016 motion is CASO Deputy Rick Riemer's report of activity for November 7th (exhibit D of Zellner's motion and CASO file page 138). Riemer wrote that he and Fauske walked Radandt's quarry and the surrounding field area with a bloodhound named Loof, and Loof tracked to "the south entry door" of a "red trailer" and "was very intense on this track." He also wrote that "this track continued in a westward direction to a cul-de-sac at the end of Kuss Road" (go to page 43 of Zellner's October 23, 2017 motion to read her explanation about Kuss Road).

Riemer's report is as follows (slightly paraphrased):

"I assisted Sarah Fauske, a patrol officer from Kaukauna Police Department, and her bloodhound, Loof, with tracking. We walked the Radandt quarry and field area on different tracks, covering five to 10 miles. One of the more significant tracks that Loof tracked was from the south entry door of the red house trailer near the concrete stoop, and this track continued in a westerly direction toward a cul-de-sac at the end of Kuss Road. Fauske indicated that Loof was very intense on this track."

In the report it is unclear if Riemer is referring to the red trailer at Avery Salvage Yard or a red trailer at Radandt's deer camp, but he does specify that he and Fauske were in Radandt's quarry and the surrounding field areas when they walked the five to 10 miles of tracks with Loof the bloodhound. And since Zellner included Riemer's report as an exhibit in her motion, the logical conclusion would be that Riemer is referring to a red trailer at the deer camp in Radandt's quarry (image below).





UPDATE JUNE 12, 2017: Attached to Kathleen Zellner's June 7, 2017 motion for post-conviction relief is a report by Loof's handler, which states that on November 7, 2005 Loof the bloodhound, tracking Teresa Halbach's scent, walked around Avery's premise, garage and trailer and had shown interest at areas there. This means the trailer that Loof hit on was Avery's red trailer, not the red trailer that had been at the deer camp. The following is Loof's handler's report for activity on November 7th.

We walked down the driveway to the Avery property to the area where the van was sitting and for sale. I pre-scented K9 Loof and did a perimeter scent inventory. K9 Loof was harnessed, given the scent article of the insole and given the command of "Find".

Having started approximately 50 feet east of the van, K9 Loof immediately went to the front portion of the van for sale. K9 Loof continued west going to a black F350 parked in the driveway in front of a garage. K9 Loof went to both doors of the truck. K9 Loof then went directly to the service door of the garage and worked her nose along the bottom of the actual overhead garage door, showing much interest.

K9 Loof worked west around the side of the garage but was unable to continue due to a large aggressive appearing German Shepard. K9 Loof wanted to continue around the garage.

K9 Loof went up to the south door of the trailer home. The door having a small porch entrance and the door was white in color. K9 Loof wanted to enter the home. K9 Loof continued north along the trailer and went between some pine trees and a burning barrel. K9 Loof smelled a charred area showing some interest then continued west.

K9 Loof went west in a picked cornfield. Directly to the south was a gravel pit and in between the two was an area of brush and trees. K9 Loof worked this area with indications of very strong scent. K9 Loof worked west coming out to a cul-de-sac that was taped off with crime scene tape and two deputies were not allowing access. K9 Loof crossed the tape on one occasion and then was told not to go any further. The deputies phoned Sheriff Pagel to see if I could continue but were told to not allow anyone access at this time.

UPDATE JUNE 12, 2017: Also attached to Zellner's motion for post-conviction relief file is an affidavit from Joshua Radandt. The following is an excerpt (see also, Ken Kratz "Shuffled" the Burn Barrels, Which is How "Deer Camp Burn Barrel #2," the Only Barrel to Contain Bones, Became "Janda Burn Barrel #2").

"Later that week I received a call from law enforcement on my cell phone. Law enforcement asked me to unlock my three hunting trailers so they could be searched. I left work and drove to the hunting camp. When I arrived there was nobody there. I unlocked my trailers and left.

"It is my understanding that they were searched by law enforcement and scent tracking dogs.

"Later that day law enforcement called my phone again. They informed me they completed their search and I could use them again normally.

"During the course of the conversation law enforcement informed me that they were going to collect the contents of the burn barrel at the hunting camp at a later time. When I returned to camp they had the area cordoned off surrounding the burn barrel and had officers to watch the burn barrel day and night on a rotating basis until its contents were collected.

"A few days later I remember seeing light in the Manitowoc county sand and gravel pit to the south of Radant's property. I remember that the lights appeared to illuminate the entire Manitowoc county pit."

Brutus‏ @cadaverdogbrutu
Pagel and his Kuss road blockade...turns the true heroes away on the day...sniffer dogs. Unbelievable. #hownottorunalegitinvestigation

TickTockManitowoc @TManitowoc
Picture this scene: "Any sign of my missing Teresa?" "No sorry, Ms. Halbach..our sheriff blocked the search and rescue dogs from looking."



Zellner is seeking a judge's permission to allow advanced DNA and scientific testing on the pelvic bones found in the burn pile at Radandt's quarry [CASO Property No. 8675] and on burnt material found at Radandt's deer camp [CASO Property No. 7958 and 7953] off the seldom-traveled stretch of Kuss Road.

Zellner wrote in her August 26, 2016 motion that bones found in Radandt's quarry, which included a pelvis, were suspected to be human:

"State expert Leslie Eisenberg testified that the volume of bones discovered in the burn pit was 'two-to three-fifths of what might be expected.' Dr. Eisenberg also admitted that the bones had been moved prior to their location in Mr. Avery’s burn pit. Dr. Eisenberg testified that she suspected that the bones found in the Radandt quarry, which included a pelvis, were human."

During Zellner's press conference on August 26, 2016, she said that only 30 percent of the bones were recovered and 29 of the teeth were never recovered

"The bones were moved. That was admitted. There was a human pelvis found over in the quarry. The bones were in different spots. The body was not burned whole. It's not possible to do that. So you've got the same bone in three different places. You've got only 30% of the bones recovered. You have 29 of the teeth never recovered. The bones look like they were planted. The property was closed down. The coroner from Manitowoc was not allowed on the property and actually was not notified it was a murder—that violates the Wisconsin statute."

In Zellner's motion, she wrote that Sgt. Andy Colborn of MTSO discovered Teresa's RAV4 on November 3rd, at which time it was seized by MTSO; and then on November 4th, after the CASO flyover, it was moved from Radandt's quarry to the Avery property using the conveyor road:

"On November 3, 2005, Officer Colborn discovered the victim’s vehicle and called dispatch, on a personal line, to confirm the victim’s license plate number. On November 3, 2005, according to the Manitowoc County Sheriff s Department reports, Ms. Halbach’s vehicle was seized. Ms. Halbach's vehicle was moved to the southeast corner of the Avery property on the evening of November 4, 2005 after Calumet County Sheriff Jerry Pagel and Investigator Wendy Baldwin conducted a flyover of the Avery salvage yard. Ms. Halbach's vehicle was moved from the Fred Radandt Sons, Inc. quarry to the Avery property using the conveyor road that led onto the Avery property from the quarry."

Keep in mind that around 8 p.m. on November 4th, Chuck Avery saw headlights in the area where the RAV4 would be found the next morning.

Zellner also wrote that Steven Avery contends the victim’s key and bones were planted on his property on November 7, 2005 and were discovered on November 8, 2005:

"Non-law enforcement individuals were also allowed to enter the property after the property was closed to the general public. Two of those individuals were untruthful in their police interviews. Mr. Avery will present his third party theory in his post-conviction petition that he will file once he obtains the new test results. Individual A [Joshua Radandt] accessed the  property from the quarry four times, for some unknown reason, after it had been closed to the public. Specifically, Individual A accessed the property within minutes of Officers Colborn and Lenk on November 5, and twice on November 7. Prior to anyone realizing that Ms. Halbach’s body had been burned, Individual A gave a statement in which he described seeing a fire in a burn barrel behind Mr. Avery’s garage on October 31, 2005. Subsequent investigation has determined that Individual A’s statement is contrary to the facts; Mr. Avery’s burn barrel was never behind his trailer or garage, and it was impossible for Individual A to observe Mr.  Avery’s backyard as he described because of the elevation of the quarry from where he was allegedly making his observations.

"Individual B [Ryan Hillegas] accessed the property using a false name... Individual B received approximately 22 calls from law enforcement on November 4, 2005, prior to the victim’s vehicle being moved onto the property. Individual B accessed the Avery property twice on November 7, 2005 and once on November 8, 2005 after the property was closed to the public. Mr. Avery contends that the victim’s key and bones were planted on November 7, 2005 and were discovered on November 8, 2005."

On April 9, 2016, Kathleen Zellner tweeted:

“All day re-tracing TH steps. No doubt she left Avery property alive. All roads lead to one door and it's not Steven Avery's.”

An interpretation of the tweet is as follows:

There are several roads in and out of Radandt's quarry into Avery Salvage Yard [Radandt's quarry is to the south, east and west of Avery Salvage Yard.] 

All roads from Radandt's lead straight to Avery Salvage Yard.

The hunting cabins at the deer camp in Radandt's quarry are pictured above as they were on November 4, 2005. There were three cabins and what looks like a shed or garage. One of the cabins/trailers appears to be red. Avery's red trailer is at the top of the image.

The smaller cabin (on the left in the image above) and the red trailer (the center cabin in the image above) at Radandt's deer camp are no longer there. When they were removed is unknown, but Radandt sold the deer camp almost a year to date after Teresa went missing.

Sometime after 2005 and before 2014, there were only two cabins (trailers) at the deep camp in Radandt's quarry, as pictured below.



solunaView of Reddit visited the deer camp at Radandt's quarry. The following is what he/she wrote about it on August 28, 2016:

• The property was sold almost a year to the date after the TH murder.
• The property and the access road is still an entry to the Radandt quarry.
•  The property is very small and of little value for anyone, even as a "hunting" location due to the surrounding area.
• The property was sold to someone from Sheboygan, WI. I have the name but will keep that to myself for doxxing reasons.
• Radandt has relatives in Sheboygan and it is believed that the property is still in the family (if it wasn't, the road into the quarry would be closed off).
• Trailers were moved and taken offsite. One of my concerns, and why I visited the actual camp, was to see if there was a foundation under any new trailers. There is not.

The "deer camp" theory was developed because of the trailers and the site changes. Joshua Radandt implicated himself by his early and far too detailed eyewitness accounts to law enforcement. The fact bloodhounds led right to the Kuss Road cul-de-sac only further complicates the issue. Human bones found on your property and you skate/are allowed on the Avery property during an active investigation? How is this possible?

When you place a cursor over a Google Maps satellite image of the deer camp at Radandt's quarry and right click on it, it displays the address as 13136 White Cedar Road. When you map the route to this address from Avery's, it takes you to the deer camp via Kuss Road.

Google doesn't properly map the driveway you would take through the woods at the end of the cul-de-sac on Kuss Road to get to the deer camp, but you can see that long driveway when viewing the satellite image (images above and below).







In the image below, the burn pile in the quarry is circled in red, Avery's trailer is circled in yellow, the location where the RAV4 was found in the "pit" at Avery Salvage Yard is circled in pink, and Radandt's deer camp is marked with the bullseye (it's actually to the left and below the bullseye).

The killer had three days before Teresa was reported missing to dispose of her body. The burn pile at the gravel mound in the quarry (circled in red in the image below) was far from any residences and would have been an ideal place to burn a body without being noticed.

The burn pile, although in the quarry, actually was on a section of land owned by the county.





Today, satellite images show mining of gravel west and northwest of Avery's trailer (image below); however, in October 2005 that area was a field with a vehicle-sized path running along the boundary with Avery Salvage Yard (image above). Because that field is now a quarry, you can no longer drive from the cul-de-sac on Kuss Road to Avery's trailer, but you still can drive from Kuss Road to the deer camp/hunting cabins in Radandt's quarry. This is visible in the image below and in the drone flyover of the Avery property from January 2016 (video below).



The image below is a screen shot from a video taken by a drone on October 31, 2016. You clearly can see that there now are only two trailers at Radandt's deer camp. There is a pine tree near the spot where the red trailer at the deer camp was located on October 31, 2005.







Below is a screen shot from an episode of Evil Lives Here on the Investigation Discovery channel. It is an image of Avery's property after the bones were discovered on November 8, 2005 (the blue tarp in the image was placed over the burn pit after the bones were found). You can see tire tracks going to the burn pit and coming from the direction of the field track to Kuss Road ( image source). Could the burnt remains found in Avery's burn pit have come in this way?



Below are other photos of Avery's property, but they were taken either before the bones were discovered in the burn pit behind Avery's garage or on the day the bones were discovered and the blue tarp had yet to be placed over the burn pit. You can see tire tracks going to the burn pit.



Law enforcement had commandeered Avery's property, his sister's property, and Avery Salvage Yard on November 5, 2005 and did not release it until November 12, 2005. During those eight days, the Avery family was not allowed on their properties. Delores Avery had a golf cart that she stored in her garage, which is where it was found when cops searched Avery Salvage Yard for Teresa Halbach at 2:30 p.m. on November 5, 2005 (CASO page 82). It remained on the property until cops removed it and secured it on a sealed trailer on November 11, 2005 (CASO, page 239). A cadaver dog alerted on this cart (Avery's 2009 motion, page 8). Could the tracks going to the burn pit behind Avery's garage be golf cart tracks?



For more information on the bones found at Radandt's quarry, see the following:

• The Bones Found at Radandt's Quarry PART 1
• The Bones Found at Radandt's Quarry PART 2

Radandt Quarry May Hold Key to Teresa Halbach's Murder

The Bones Found in the Quarry, the "Burn Pile" or "Quarry Pile" in the Gravel Mound - PART 2

PART 1 AT THE LINK BELOW:

http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-land-grab-theory-they-were-hoping.html



Quarry Burn Pile Location is Actually County Burn Pile
By chromeomykiss at TickTockManitowoc
January 11, 2017

http://imgur.com/a/mznGs

Above is a look at the location of the GPS coordinates given in Exhibit 402 of where pelvic bones (sacrum and innominate fragments) were found in the quarry and later examined by forensic anthropologists Leslie Eisenberg AND Dr. Kenneth Bennett (ilium bone is innominate).

The 2005 Aerial Image Layer is selected so the imagery reflects the area.

The red outlines parcels owned by Manitowoc County (seen on side and bottom) and run by the County Highway Department, which has since rented the land to store wind tower parts as evidenced in current aerial imagery.

The small blue dots represent the 44N 15' 51" and 87W 41' 51" GPS coordinates (as seen in the top right corner showing the Lat/Long coordinates), the location of the "quarry" pile per Exhibit 402. It should be noted that 44N 15' 52" is just north and starts directly above the property/parcel line and that parcel WAS owned by Fred Radandt and Sons in 2005 and is since in the ownership of Badgerland Aggregates [Joshua Radandt's company in partnership with Bill Vachon].

So the question becomes, why did Manitowoc County deflect on the ownership of this property in trial and in Exhibit 402 and refer to it as the just a "quarry" pile?

Also why is Dr. Eisenberg not willing to make a definitive identification of those bones as human, calling them instead "possible human bone fragments," when Dr Bennett had made a preliminary identification and filed a two-page report on November 10, 2005 that the ilium bone fragment that he examined was human and female?

The ilium bone was from the quarry, per page 3 of Criminal Complaint:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Criminal-Complaint.pdf

From all of the research I've done from available sources and reports is the only bone fragments with pelvic features and the iliac crest part of the ilium bone are under Evidence Tag 8675, which are associated to the "quarry burn pile" in the CASO Evidence Log. It is interesting that they exhibit cut marks just as the bones that came from the Janda burn barrel exhibited cut marks, according to Exhibit 401.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trial-Exhibit-401-Eisenberg-Pics-of-Cut-Marks-on-Halbach-Remains.pdf

I think it's the cut marks that made Kratz, et al, try to stay as far away from it as possible. It goes completely against their narrative because it obviously suggests that either she was killed elsewhere or that she was dismembered and her remains were sprinkled around various places. [Minerva8918]

Here is a a wider shot of this area so we can see where it is in relation to Avery Salvage Yard:



This perspective also raises the other issue of access to the roads that the Rav4 may have covertly traveled on the night of the November 4, 2005 to access the conveyor road, as Kathleen Zellner stated in her motion.

[–]mursieftw on Steven Avery burning the body in his burn area behind his garage:

Well - If I were going to burn a body, I certainly wouldn't start the fire with it. I'd get one going...have it up and burning... maybe people even see it up and running and think nothing of it because at 4:30 to sunset it's just a regular trash fire. Then comes sunset... everyone has scurried away... I'm going to say 6pm which is right after getting off the phone call with Jodi... head into the garage and get the body from the back of the rav4... dump it into the already going fire... add some more accelerants... let it burn for an hour.... then call BD at 7pm... burn for another 4 to 5 hours until 11:30 / midnight.

The guy is so guilty it makes me sick. You can literally map it all out. 2:45 he strikes... god knows what sexual assault activity he does from 2:45pm to about 4:00pm. Then it sets in.... clean up... what to do. He stores body in rav4.... quickly get's a burn pit fire going.... throws her effects in his burn barrel and burns it... remembers "oh crap... is her phone going to ring in that burn barrel"... and calls it at 4:35pm just to make sure it wont ring. Hangs up four rings in once he is sure it definitely will not ring... let's the fire continue to burn... heads inside for a quick 15 minute call with jodi... then at 6pm..begins his work.. puts body in... burns... at 7pm brings BD over... cleans the garage spot with gas/bleach/etc... throws her clothes and more garbage bags in the fire... a van seat.. .tires... more and more... manages the fire till 8:45... goes in and talks for 15 mins to jodi - comes back out and tends the fire till midnight.

[–]MsMinxster

    god knows what sexual assault activity he does from 2:45pm to about 4:00pm.

Where? There was not a spec of Teresa's DNA in the trailer. Where was she murdered? In the garage? Where is the blood? SA somehow managed to clean every trace blood spatter in that dump of a garage?

    2:45 he strikes...

How? He pulls a shotgun on her in broad daylight right in front of Barb Janda's house and forces her into his trailer? Then what? There's no evidence anyone was manacled or tied with a rope to the bed. So does SA keep the shotgun trained at her during the supposed sexual assault? Please explain how that works.

[–]ews0605 

Another question for you, does him tending the fire until midnight means that it is extinguished at midnight? (No it does not). What is the formula for determining how broken down a body will be?

degradation=(heat/body mass * water weight+muscle+fat)/bone density

The fact of the matter remains, the heat wouldn't be sufficient to completely annihilate a body the way hers purportedly was.

[–]mursieftw 

Here you go bud: Open Fire Cremation

Let me give you a highlight too:

    Detailed pictures of an actual open fire cremation: Here is an example of a pig cremation (with photos) originally posted by bugdog1 . The pig was 220lbs, was burnt on an open fire with no accelerants and with minimal agitation. It was reduced to ash and bone fragments in 6 hours, judging by the pictures it was almost complete at 4 hours.

http://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol37/tbl2.htm www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol37/burial.pdf

As you can see, an open fire is very possible to cremate a body to nothing expert testimony in this case agree that the burn pit was used to cremate TH the accelerants used to do this job are listed in that link a 220 lb pig was burnt to literally NOTHING in six hours with zero accerlerants on an open pit..and was basically done in FOUR hours.

[–]ews0605 

Pig's aren't humans. They likely have different bone density and I would venture to say that they are composed of more fat than a 135 pound woman.

[–]ews0605

The thing is that the purported fire occurred on 10/31 and there isn't mention of a fire after that. Furthermore, he was convicted on a single story, not several theories thrown together. The idea is to attack that single theory the way it was presented in the COURT OF LAW.

[–]Moonborne 

OK, now I definitely think Radandt had something to do with this.

[–]desertsky1 

yet another young man with the "off to hunting" line for that time frame on that day....did this guy know Scott and/or Bobby D? Where is Josh's hunting cabin? I realize it's common to deer hunt in those parts, but it was late in the day in the fall and clocks had already been set back.

[–]Traveler430 

The only thing I'm interested in is, if he was investigated for the bones found on his property just like SA was on his.

[–]AConanDoyle[S]

It was his property that the burn site with bones was found?

[–]Traveler430 

Yep.

[–]AConanDoyle[S]

That is incredible.

Any chance you know if there is a road connecting the west twin river bridge to the Radandt hunting cabins?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4aoxrs/west_twin_river_bridge_and_the_isolated_cabin/

Is this the same cabin?

[–]Traveler430

Well that cabin is far away from the gravel pit, but the gravel quarry is accessible thru Kuss road or Jambo creek.

[–]AConanDoyle[S]

Yes, Jambo creek is easy access from Highway 147, the direction Steve reported Teresa heading and the Quarry.

[–]curiousaboutthis2 

You might be able to find something by looking here:

http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/maps.html

Looks like they include rustic and forest roads.

[–]lmogier 

Add to that the question of where is all of this in relation to where the Averys saw lights those two nights.... (Thursday, Nov 3rd, and Friday, Nov 4th)?

Would it have been the path or area one would take to get from JR's to where they found either the car, the quarry, burn areas etc....

[–]AConanDoyle

Here is the location of burn pit where the pelvis bones were found on the Radandt quarry.

https://i.imgur.com/yyUuhNU.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ynu20/the_bones_at_the_quarry/

[–]hos_gotta_eat_too 

ok a good start..does anyone have the location of the phone found by Sturm?

Go to the link below for the location of the phone found near East Twin River:

http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/search/label/Pam%20Sturm%20Finds%20Cell%20Phone%20and%20Papers

[–]Refukulator

Only a vague description.

No, this was about -- the river is about a quarter mile from the actual town.

It's starts about page 233, KK's direct of PoG (Pam Sturm)

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf

[–]hos_gotta_eat_too

Mishicot...turnaround at the river..John Campion..got it.

[–]Canicomment 

The location of the cabin is on twitter 0hour posted about it about a week or two ago. It was also on Fb and there is a gate before you enter the cabin.

[–]AConanDoyle

I think the locked swinging gates to the Quarry are the most interesting place she could go with her Rav4. I want to see if the gates match the damage profile on the front of the RAV4.

[–]VillageIdiot34

yes! from day one they said some bones were also found in a nearby quarry. I always assumed the avery's owned that quarry.

[–]AConanDoyle

Honestly initially I seriously doubted S. Avery's innocence; I thought it would be an impossible coincidence someone could have access to the Avery yard, have means and motive to be involved in Teresa's disappearance.

The entirety of the crime scene and investigation seems to make complete sense now, including refusal/dismissal of the coroner and the experts that were set to come investigate.

[–]AConanDoyle

And low profile in the investigation as well; notice it is hearsay: "I heard someone else mention that Joshua said", except for the police log and this report, plausible deniability is in place.

Who is the owner of the Quarry where the burn site with bones was found?

[–]sjj342

    Who is the owner of the Quarry where the burn site with bones was found?

If I am following correctly, the Radandt's.

The question is, who was that someone? Have to check Jost's testimony to see if it identifies who...

ETA - Jost conveniently didn't testify, and neither did Radandt (even though he's on witness lists). You would think the state would want to call those people... Radandt in particular should've been a better witness on fire size than ST or the others they called that had statements littered with inconsistencies.

[–]knowjustice

I believe it is now owned by Badgerland Aggregates. Owners, Josh Radant and Bill Vachon. The received a permit in 2015 to expand operatation of a non-metallic mining operation on 34 acres between Cherney Road and Jambo Road.

BA owns quite a bit of property on Cherney Road in the Town of Gibson. Some of the property abuts Avery's.

http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/taxquery/main.htm Search municipalities, Town of Gibson.

townofgibsonwi.com/uploads/meetings/June%202015%20minutes.pdf

[–]Refukulator

https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/2004/202087.htm

The registered agent for Badgerland Aggregates shares a last name with the Vinton Construction boys.

http://www.bizapedia.com/wi/BADGERLAND-AGGREGATES-LLC.html

I have a friend in the dirt business, she tells me that it's hinky as hell.

[–]AConanDoyle

And from this thread more involvement in bonfire discussions with Bryan Dassey, Joshua Radandt:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/

"I asked BRYAN how many times STEVEN has burned in that pit and he said about once to twice a month. BRYAN said the reason why he did not think anything of it was because JOSHUA RADANDT, the owner of the gravel pit, was clearing brush and STEVE had offered to burn that for him."

The interview in which the above quote was taken happened on 2/27. Is he telling the truth or somehow trying to offer an explanation after the fact as to how TH's bones might have gotten into SAs fire pit?

[–]Refukulator

I think we need to resurrect this thread and perhaps dig a little deeper.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/

[–]youngrell

Wasn't Steven going to burn brush on behalf of Radandt? So effectively Radandt knew Avery would be having a fire?

He also has rear access to the property and knows the place well. He could also be interested in acquiring the Avery land as others have mentioned.

Food for thought.

[–]Odilion

I'd be curious to know if this person has any criminal history or questionable past behavior as do so many people linked to this case.

[–]honeygirl71

Another thing to consider is how did that brush get brought over? Was it dumped all at once by equipment? Was anything hidden in the brush, if so? I would assume even if Steven is nice enough to burn it, it was probably brought to him...

[–]Canuck64 

But at court Blaine testified that the pit behind the garage has only been used once, when he acknowledged having bonfires at Steve's other burn pit. Curious where the other burn pit is?

[–]AConanDoyle

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/

This suit originates from a contract granted to MC in 2005. Of interest to me are threats to drop the suit otherwise Radandt gets no more business w/city:

Fred Radandt Sons Inc. is suing the city of Manitowoc for allegedly awarding two contracts to Manitowoc County without competitively bidding the work.

Fred Radandt Sons Inc is one of several businesses owned by the Radandts

Does anyone know where I can do a historical deed search? Several parcels in MC are currently owned by "Radandt Development" in MC. I'd like to know what they owned in 2005."

[–]knowjustice 

They owned a number of businesses in 2005. Fred Radant and Sons filed Chapter 11 in 2014. The docs are online.

[–]AConanDoyle

IF Zellner is correct and Steve is in fact innocent, my opinion is the real story of Teresa's disappearance is going to involve in some significant way the Radandt's quarry.

[–]jello1388

They really seemed to minimize the burn pile in the quarry as being important. He just happened to move some of her remains, but not all of them, or even most of them? The only reason I can think of why, is because it hurts the case against SA by casting reasonable doubt. I'm right there with you.

[–]AConanDoyle

I could be completely off base but I am leaning towards initially a shallow grave in the quarry. Second thoughts, then a bonfire at the quarry, followed up by using the 5 gallon buckets [or a 55 gallon burn barrel] to transport cremains to the burn pit by Steve's house.

It seems somewhat unlikely Steve would bring human remains and place them outside his window.

Also it is unclear if 4 burn barrels are behind the Janda residence, where is the barrel with the cell phone found, I believe it was found in a field, which makes five barrels, another mystery...

[–]Devlyn99 

The 5th burn barrel was across the road. This is where the phone & camera were found. You can see Barb's van in the top of the picture of the 1st one. 2nd pic shows the barrel in relation to the driveway & houses.

http://imgur.com/7FrqiXv
http://imgur.com/cLw2qMs

More on the burn barrels at the following link:

The Burn Barrels, DNA Profiles Developed But Not Matched to Anyone, and Charred Muscle Used to Identify Bones as Belonging to Teresa Halbach

[–]curiousaboutthis2

Wasn't Steven helping him (Joshua) burn stuff?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/409ewx/bryan_dassey_interview_02272006_exhibit_89/

[–]CopperPipeDream 

On Halloween night?

[–]curiousaboutthis2 

I don't know, but it seems like it was quite a bit of brush that was burned over a period of time. So it is possible and if he knew that, why would he think it odd? They were both trying to burn piles of brush, seeing a fire shouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

[–]Refukulator 

Unfortunately the SoW charges for detailed information regarding corporate filings, but I did find this on Badgerland Aggregates LLC.

http://www.bizapedia.com/wi/BADGERLAND-AGGREGATES-LLC.html

Jeffrey Maples Lincoln Avenue Two Rivers, WI 54241

The address matches up with the Wisconsin Department of Financial Institutions records.

https://www.wdfi.org/apps/CorpSearch/Search.aspx?

Triangulate that address on Lincoln Avenue with the County Assessors website and you get...

http://www.manitowoccounty.com/taxquery/main.htm

A blank. Nothing. At least from what I could find. Search by name, address, City of Two Rivers, Town of Two Rivers, nothing...nada....

What is really interesting, is this, it's been brought up on this subreddit before.

https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/2004/202087.htm

FOUR WISCONSIN ROAD CONSTRUCTION EXECUTIVES ARRESTED ON BID RIGGING AND WIRE FRAUD CHARGES 

Road Construction Projects Worth More than $100 Million to State of Wisconsin

According to the criminal complaints and affidavit filed yesterday in the U.S. District Court in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and unsealed today, James J. Maples, President of Vinton Construction Company of Manitowoc, Wisconsin; Michael J. Maples, Vice President of Vinton; Ernest J. Streu, President of Streu Construction Company of Two Rivers, Wisconsin; and John Streu, Secretary/Treasurer of Streu, rigged bids submitted to WisDOT and others from as early as 1997 until the present. James and Michael Maples reside in Manitowoc and Ernest and John Streu reside in Two Rivers.

Want to bet a dollar that Jeff is related to Jim and Mike ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/

[–]yowzapete

This isn't relavent to the SA situation, but here's info about what he and his family was up to in 2006:

http://iuoe139.org/uploads/newsletters/april_2006_newsletter.pdf

[–]devisan

Interesting. If nothing else, it's fairly good evidence that Manitowoc County is corrupt as anywhere else. The fact that the Radandts weren't suing for money makes me inclined to believe their side.

MC wouldn't be the only place in America where municipalities hand out business to their buds in flagrant violation of the law, but it's a pretty scummy thing to do.

[–]forthefreefood 

I work on crime scenes and while it is normal for neighbors to stand and watch, it's not typical for them to come over and actually be on the property watching what we are doing. We would ask them to leave. Furthermore, if this moment was when he passed on the information about the "larger than usual" fire, unprompted that is, that's suspicious in my eyes.

It's not about what people want to hear. You gave an idea and some people don't find it to be particularly reasonable. That being said, I'm sure there are other more reasonable reasons for him to be there, I just can't think of any ATM.

[–]devisan

It was a secured site by 11am. That said, some searchers did manage to wander on, and they came through from the quarry, where there wasn't a check point. But LEOs saw them pretty quickly, found out who they were, and IIRC told them to go search some areas off site.

Had Radandt wandered onto the site, he'd have been stopped by officers and advised to leave. If they didn't advise him to leave, then that's because they felt they had business with him. Possibly just taking a statement, who knows. But it does make sense to wonder.

[–]sjj342 

    "larger than usual"

The larger than usual is hearsay, i.e., what Jost said he heard someone say about what someone else (Radandt) told that someone... perhaps to give him probable cause to sift through the Avery's burn pit. There's no way to know whether Radandt actually used the term "larger than usual", and it reads like how the someone is describing it to Jost.

[–]headstilldown 

Well, You have to also wonder then, if Joshua is the one who KNEW Steve offered to burn his brush, why then would it surprise him enough to bother with "larger than usual", when he himself knew very well what he was likely burning?

[–]sjj342

If only the State would've called him to testify about the fire... that would've been helpful to the case, no? To me, Radandt's absence from trial based on this report is telling, and it seems like this gets closer to establishing a link between the quarry burn site and the planting of the bones...

I just noted elsewhere - cynically, it seems like "someone" brought it up on the 8th for a specific reason (Radandt was there on the 5th so the information could've been acted on earlier), knowing that the bones now had been transported from the quarry site to the Avery site. This makes sense that (1) the "someone" did not want to directly be the one to discover the bones and would prefer to have that done by someone else ignorant of the planting, and (2) that the bones were not transferred until after November 5 once they essentially have the area cordoned off, the search party is not present, and the number of officers on the scene diminishes.

Neither Jost nor Radandt testified, so those are deadends... would need to look at the log for Nov 8, strike out Jost and Sturdivant, and then keep going through to figure out who "someone" is. If it's Colburn (who has a history of not documenting things like this)....

[–]ScousePie

    Yeah, it seems highly unlikely he was there on the 8th, so it just gets more odd... Why didn't it come up on the 5th? If so, why did they wait until the 8th?

Well, it looks like from the report that the information Radandt is second-hand information that someone told to Jost.

Why is he the one to put all the pieces together on Nov. 8th? I don't know.

[–]ScousePie 

He says he remembered the information regarding Radandt so I take that to mean he at least knew before deciding to initiate a more detailed search of Avery's burn pit. This is another thing that I would say warrants some investigation by our sleuths.

[–]headstilldown

The relationship between Radandts and Averys would indeed go back many, many years. Sure would be nice to find an understanding about it.

I've always been completely confused as to why there is a gravel conveyor or the remnants of one that seems to cross between the two worlds. Did Avery sell gravel back in the day ? Or, shall I assume that perhaps before Avery's had as many cars, some of the land was actually used by Radandt... they may have had financial agreements to allow Radant to extract sand or gravel priced per yard. Then when Avery needed the space, they just slowly took their property back.

The conveyors existence in, around and over the top of the cars has a history of some sort.

[–]mrvitolives 

Is it possible the Radandt's used to own the Avery property as a load/storage zone and the Averys bought it? How long have the Avery's owned the land... Because, come to think of it, the same last names pop up all over the area, but you don't see many more Averys.

[–]headstilldown

I'd have to think Avery's were there LONG before the gravel pits expanded around them. The Avery name was a good and respected name for many years as I personally recall hearing it back in the early 60's. Uncle whatshisname Avery was always at the county firefighter picnics.... I remember his big hat and badge walking around at them keeping the drunks at bay.

[–]mrvitolives

Oh cool. How long did you live around there?

[–]headstilldown

MANY years. Born there..... Spent time in that exact Radandt pit partying.... as well as many other pits of theirs. The ponds in them always attracted teens on warm summer days.

Of course, those were the days when a few 16-17 years olds could actually enjoy a cold beer and when and if a cop came, he'd advise you to pour it out, give you a look over to see if you are still capable of driving, then move on with a simple warning.

Now you MUST be PUNISHED to the full extent of the law, so the rest of your life is SHIT just because you actually were a kid once.

The world has gone completely insane. It's just that the majority has been conditioned to not notice.

[–]chromeomykiss

The earliest geospatial imagery or aerial maps from 1992 on Google Earth show that in 1992 that southern area of the Avery 40 acre parcel was ponds and active quarry with the conveyor extending down to the inside edge of the Avery Yard. The entire area where the Rav4 was found and the crusher located was also a pond.

Not sure what it would have looked like just 7 years earlier in 1985 when SA was sent away the first time.

Also where does Roland Johnson fit in with owning just the tiny back section where the SA trailer was located...and Roland Johnson letting Jodi stay there originally after her eviction and while SA was living in the ice fishing shanty.

[–]smash-_- 

Right... So there was Martinez, Zipperer, RH, ST, SB, BC and now Radandt. But they solely went after SA. Ok then.

[–]stOneskull

it was the propane truck driver dude!

[–]trapjaw9920

That dude is my cousin.. and I can PROMISE you on this one, he's all good.

[–]Jmystery1

Did they ever ask him for his paperwork? I do not think he did it, was just curious about paperwork as in does he write down times? I guess this would really help to know time he was filling up and time he seen suv?

[–]trapjaw9920

That's a good question. I guess it's possible he would have to list the times for work, but really I think it's a matter of habit where he does the same thing at the same time every day, hence why he didn't give an exact time that he saw what he saw.

[–]stOneskull

Josh Radandt sued Manitowoc County:

http://dailyreporter.com/2006/02/14/contractor-sues-manitowoc-over-award/

[–]curiousaboutthis2

Here is some more stuff:

https://yosemite.epa.gov/oa/rhc/epaadmin.nsf/Filings/F82B9C55193F5F40852578F2001B7E87/$File/CAA-05-2011-0047%20CAFO%208-18-2011.PDF

Read page 7:

http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/upload/29/Board%20of%20Adjustment%20Minutes%206-15-15.pdf

[–]Jmystery1 

Found this info about Radandt and were actually helping dig and involved in search?

Radandt

Jury Trial Transcript – Day 4 – 2007Feb15

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-4-2007Feb15.pdf

Pg 62 So Radandt agreed to dig two of those ponds out while we watched them do it.

Pg 69-70
Q. Are you familiar with a surrounding property which is called Radandt's Quarry? 
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Again, referring to Exhibit 79, if you could tell us where that is located.
A. Radandt has -- Let's see. This is the north on this end. Radandt has an active quarry from here down, which would be to the west. They also had a quarry on the south end, which would be in this area here.
Q. From Radandt's Quarry, or from at least the access corner, the corner that would attach.

Pg 73-78
A. That was a camp that Radandts used. They own most of the land around this area and they used that for deer hunting. It consisted of three mobile homes that they had set up for deer hunting or something of that nature.

[–]thisismeingradenine 

What the hell is this, 29 - confidential informant??


[–]tds166 

This is what I had wrote on the post contain the investigative notes:

I see two places on page 13 where you can make out partial letters. I believe this is what everyone is referring to. The first is in the 3rd paragraph, 1st blocked out name, ending in what appears to be a T. If you look at there 4th paragraph, based on what is visible on the top right, the last letter of the first name has to be a "I", "N", "H", "M", or "J", since that has to be the right most part of the letter based on the spacing to the next word. Based on how the report is structured, the first time the name is used they write the full name. So in the second paragraph, 1st blocked out name has to be the full name. Based on the spacing it has to be a short first and last name to fit. What is odd though is the 1st blocked out spot in the 3rd paragraph, where it appears to end in a "T". Surprised that they would enter the full name again in the next paragraph. The report typically then references the first name from then on. Can't see it just saying "INFORMANT" since there would be no reason to hide that, especially since informal is not capitalized in this section of the report and is not blocked out anyway. So would assume its the full name again. The sections blocking the first name can't be any more then more then 3 letters. Looking at the other names, KIM DUCAT does fit those specifics and based on measuring spacing of capital letters does fit in the full name spots. That assumes her first name is KIM and not KIMBERLY, since they use actual names in the report. Last name could be 4 letters and not 5. Are there any other full names, that we would know about, which could also fit?

[–]Tfor10 

I have always wondered about Josh Radandt and the guy he signed in at the same time with, Travis Groelle. Did a little research a few weeks ago and found he may be an amateur race car driver (Travis) but that was it. Always found it weird how they were the only 2 people with no ties to any sort of association that signed in that day. I posted something a few weeks ago but never got much back about travis.....

[–]AConanDoyle

By coincidence he may live right next to the Devils River State Trail just 7 minutes south on Highway Q.

[–]curiousaboutthis2

A Groelle owns an excavation company, maybe another case of LE using their equipment:

[–]curiousaboutthis2

An interesting last name in this obit:

http://www.tributes.com/show/Milton-R.-Groelle-91139457

The Groelles are related to the Remikers.

[–]tinyfinn 

Everyone in this town is connected. Bizarre for a big city girl to put together.

[–]sleuthing_hobbyist 

I have mentioned this before that there is some kind of conveyor that extends into the Avery's junkyard from the Radandt quarry.

Where do you get the information that joshua was going to a hunting cabin late at night on halloween?

Is there any information on the relationship between joshua and people like steve, scott, bobby etc?

I thought that Earl/Steve went into that quarry to set sights on their guns. Did they get along with radandt, and he allowed them to do that?

[–]AConanDoyle

From one of Jost's CASO reports:

"Earlier, when I had been in the command post area, I remembered someone mentioning that JOSHUA RADANDT had checked on his hunting trailers on Monday evening. He saw there was a large fire burning near STEVEN Avery's property. The fire was described as being 'larger than usual.' I, Sgt Jost, started to piece all of this information together. I felt this area, if not already looked at, should be checked for any type of evidence. When Officer Mignon returned, I spoke with her about my feelings of the burn pile. She stated she also felt that something was unusual with that area."

They then found the magic single bone labeled BV laying on the grass....

[–]sleuthing_hobbyist

It's says Monday evening. Is it late night?

But, interesting to note that this was 11/7 or 11/8 that this was noted, so this might be the first mention of a bonfire at Avery's. Right?

I had not seen this report before.

[–]AConanDoyle

Exactly, this seems to be the seed for the bonfire stories, it is also followed up by Jost finding the only bone with mtdna, laying not in the pit but on the grass.

Where this bonfire was and who was in attendance is still very speculative, it seems after dark Halloween is reasonable assumption given the description relayed by Jost. It could be a description of the quarry fire, more real discovery is required to be definitive.

There is still no definitive proof yet that Joshua even said this. It is Jost who ascribes the command tent conversation as naming Joshua as seeing a large bonfire Halloween night.

He uses it to explain, much like Pam Sturm, his complex rationale for searching the burn pit, which he notes other experts probably already searched, and then finding, on the grass, the bone fragment and later the the skull fragment.

[–]curiousaboutthis2 

Are they still the owners of the quarry? This is a bankruptcy filed in 2014. Or is this for a different business they owned?

[–]mmh150

I think you are missing the subtleties of our thought processes. There were bones found on the Radandt property plus blood brought into evidence. If they were there at the quarry (no matter who) using it as a primary burn pit or crime scene then, and if he was so ubiquitous at the time then perhaps it is something that needs to be addressed. What part could it have been?

70's murder of a young woman found in Radandt gravel pit? Only Miles from the one Halbach's bones were found? And to top it off this guy said he was innocent too......

18-year-old vanishes in Manitowoc in 1977, body found in a gravel pit at Radandt's quarry, man finds her personal items in his car, panics, throws them in the river. Cops find those personal items in the river along with a parking ticket with his name on it, arrest man, he's convicted of murder of the girl but claims innocence. In a nutshell.

Debra Sukowaty disappeared on September 24, 1977. On October 1, 1977, the police received a purse containing Sukowaty's identification and several other items which were found in a plastic bag in a nearby river. Among the items contained in the bag was a parking ticket, traceable to Ronald Fencl's car. Detective Geigel of the Two Rivers Police Department visited Fencl that same day to inquire about Sukowaty. Fencl stated that he did not know Sukowaty or anything about the items found in the river.

At approximately 4 p.m. on October 2, 1977, Geigel again visited Fencl. At this meeting Fencl told Geigel that he wanted to talk to his attorney and that he would get back to him. Half an hour later Fencl went to the police station. He told Geigel that he had found the items in his car and threw them into the river in order to avoid any trouble with the police. Geigel had to cut their conversation short because he received a call informing him that a body had been found in a nearby gravel pit. Fencl agreed to meet with him later that evening. In the meantime, the body was identified as Sukowaty. The police then impounded Fencl's car.

There are two issues presented on this appeal: (1) Did Attorney Alpert's questionable conduct deny Fencl his constitutional right to effective counsel? (2) Did the district attorney unconstitutionally imply Fencl's guilt by referring at trial to Fencl's prearrest silence?

The victim's body was discovered on October 2 in a gravel pit. Testimony at trial revealed that Mr. Fencl had previously gone to the gravel pit area on several occasions with his girlfriend "to park." Tr. (Day 4) at 43. Forensic evidence indicated that a hair was found in the back seat of Mr. Fencl's 1962 Chevrolet that "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty" was similar to Ms. Sukowaty's hair. Tr. (Day 4) at 103. The victim died from at least three forceful blows to the skull. The pathologist determined that there was no blood on any part of the body except on the clothing about the shoulders. The absence of blood elsewhere on the body indicated that the victim had been killed at the spot where the body had been found. The pathologist testified that the victim's blood had drained out of the skull into the ground. The pathologist estimated that he performed the autopsy eight days after the victim had died. [Source]

Guilters say "there is no such thing as coincidence" regarding Avery?
by hos_gotta_eat_too

Let's go over some coincidences in 3 cases:

Avery vs. Mataya vs. Fencl

We all know Avery's case, so the other two is what I want to look at.

With Avery, the key factor to me is that her items were separate from her body in the burn pit..they sat in a burn barrel.

Mataya. According to his step-daughter, her items were seen in the trunk of a police car, possessed by a cop with "scars on his face".

Fencl: Her items were found in a plastic bag in the river. Odd that Sturm found some items on a riverbed, a cell phone and business papers, a day or two after TH's car was found, but before the items were located in the burn barrel.

Starting on page 233:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf

Lawyers:

Fencl's attorney basically worked against him (assisting the prosecution), and was used to testify against him after being taken off of Fencl's case. His attorney, Alpert, wanted to write a book on the case. Fencle was described as very friendly when being questioned about the missing girl. Avery was decribed by Colborn as very cordial. Wonder why they HAVE to report on what their demeanor is...that's odd.

Now on to Mataya. Mataya's trial...Denny rule. What a surprise. As mentioned, the victim's items were said to be in the trunk of a cop's car. Seperate from the body as well, just like Fencl, just like Avery. As we have all suspected, Barb and Scott (and the boys) may have been asked..or even pressured to testify against Avery. In Mataya's case, their main witness was a guy who was asking for pending charges to be dropped to tell police what he knew about Mataya, saying that he attacked and killed the girl. Bit her (that's a weird detail to put in)...that he bleached his jeans, and cleaned his car. In Avery's case, we have cops looking for bleached jeans, after cleaning an area of the garage. Odd, huh?

Mataya had a witness who said he was in jail with the witness against Mataya and says Mataya confessed to him that he was lying to police just to get charges dropped. Of course, Mataya still sits in prison, so the police must pick and choose which convict shared information is valid (re: torture chamber.."avery said he did it" statement from inmate)..

All this said, I think we have a working schematic of the system in Manitowoc.

3 cases, 3 men claiming innocence. 3 cases of bodies found but seperate from their personal items. lots of characteristics that seem to mirror each other.

So I have to ask this...if "Steven Avery has too many coincidences to be innocent"...wouldn't you say that Manitowoc's efforts to solve crimes with what seems like unsavory practices (attorneys turning on clients, dropping charges for witnesses, shady details of cleanups) are a bit too coincidental to overlook as well?

*******

The Land Grab Theory:

They were hoping the Averys would sell everything they owned, in particular, the salvage yard, to provide Brendan with an attorney. The Avery property is the motive for a lot of this. They are the last holdout: all surrounding property is held by the same owner, and the Avery land is right in the middle of a very large holding, so it's pretty clear that they are in the way... The Avery's 40-acrea property is in Dolores Avery's name.



Fassbender/Weigert strange suggestion to BJ-T
By CopperPipeDream at Reddit
March 27, 2016

I usually hesitate to post something like this but I just about fell off the couch when I read this on twitter. It was posted to the Family Facebook page after concerns were raised about the fund raising.

http://imgur.com/C9ut41s (image above: Barbara Ellen is Brendan's mother, formerly Barb Janda and now Barb Tadych)

Since when do Fassbender and Weigert have anybody's "best interest" at heart? Best interest concerning who or what and how on God's green earth could Barb even begin to trust them after their role in Brendan's take down?!

Hey, we wrecked the fuck out of your son Brendan's life and probably let a murdering murderer continue on with their daily life, here is some sound financial advice about debt consolidation, chapter 7 vs. chapter 11 bankruptcy and an in depth financial analysis of what's in your collective best interest going forward in your shattered and dystopian future.

[–]MellieInMi

This is the part where they were telling Barb it would be in her best interest to move (from Brendan's March 1, 2006 interrogation video):

https://youtu.be/65sr1ZjrQi0?t=13670

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

I think Barb is completely helpless. She needed SA to sell her van. She initially thought BD's confession was a misunderstanding that SA could clear up with a phone call. (Her call to SA that started with yelling and ended with I love yous) Then she acts powerless to do anything about Kachinsky - requiring SA to pound some sense into her.

I think the woman is passive to the point that she completely helpless. And to top it off, she is clearly not that bright.

FTR, the van was parked so far away from the bus stop that it was unlikely that the bus driver saw anything. In fact, her testimony was completely off. TH had left the Avery property and was at the Zipperer house by 3pm. (I happen to think KZ has cell records that place TH next to the Zipperer property at 2:41pm)

There is no evidence that she ever returned to the Averys.

[–]14MGh057

I agree that the bus driver did not see TH taking pics of that van that day. It was too far down the drive-way. However, she testified seeing someone taking pics of a junked car(s) near the place she would drop off the kids (& maybe was another day). So either, TH was stopped by someone else at the end of the long driveway after she left SAs trailer, what's it called..a hot shot, cold shot..i can't remember. Or the bus driver saw her another day taking pics near the drop off point. But that day, the auto was not at the end, it was in from of Barbs trailer and SAs trailer. Convenient for all, except SA.

Maybe you see Barb as helpless, and I see the same characteristics, as BJ following the instruction(s) of ST. Maybe we call it something different. I respect your opinion on her intent; however, in the past few days, after reading the last batch of documents and cross-checking with initial testimony, it is becoming obvious who is lying, who is oblivious, who are the puppets, and who are the puppet masters.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

The timing is all wrong. Bus driver says she saw TH at 3:30-3:45.

That's completely impossible. TH was in and out of the Avery property between 2:27 and 2:41. That 2:41 call is going to place TH away from the Avery property - I am sure of it. TH made it to the Zipperer appointment at 3pm just as JoEllen testified.

Zellner:
Cellphone tower records of SA & TH provide airtight alibi for him. She left property he didn't.

[–]Cricketnz

IMO- she was at Avery's 2:00 to 2:15 then Zipperers. Avery said he was calling TH to 'come back' Dawn Pliszka changed her story when she got on the stand. In the phone call between Remiker and Weigert they clearly say Avery then Zipperer. And that the receptionist said that the call on 2:27 was her "leaving a message". Then she got on the stand and says TH called her at 2:27...the cell phone records don't show an outgoing call. It was incoming and went to VM as Dawn first said to the detectives. But by the time the trial rolled around it had changed to her having spoken to TH and that she was on her way to the Avery's...that's a lie and inconsistent to what she said to the detectives. The VM's that were erased from TH voicemail were most likely the 2:41 from Dawn and the *67 call from Avery... which would've established that she had already been to SA and he was just calling her to return.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf and start at 2:05...

Dawn left her a message...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlyBVBJKTeM

[–]Cricketnz

IMO- She left the Schmitz at around 1:30..straight to Avery's leaves by 2:10..and calls Zipperer. We only know that Joellen says that TH was lost in her testimony...but in her Nov. 6th statement she doesn't say anything about the VM left..by then whe would've heard it....but we don't know as we have never heard what the VM actually said....given that Avery was a confirmed appt. It would make most sense that she would do Schmitz, Avery, then Zipperer (this was an add on through telemarketing). IMO- the 2:41 call was when she was leaving the Zipperer property and was around the Maribel area already.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

I agree. I was stuck on the idea that TH was close to the Zipperer property at 2:12 - when it is entirely possible that she was calling for directions or to say she was on her way or whatever. Maybe JoEllen made the assumption that she was lost. Who knows. JoEllen had no idea what day it was when she was interviewed. (Honest to God!) I should know better than to take anything she said seriously!

And you're right; it makes sense to hit Avery before Zipperer coming from Schmitz. It was a straight shot traveling in that direction.

I also like your timeline for the Avery appointment. Makes sense that she is out of there by 2:24 when SA realizes that he has another car he needs to put in the AT. He probably tried a couple of times, got busy - then called her again a couple hours later when he had a minute...

Would still like to know why Dawn's voicemail had to be deleted.

[–]Shamrockholmes

I completely agree with everything you are saying. Joellen and Dawn's testimonies always stood out to me as very suspect. The 2:12 call TH left on Zipperer answering machine and the 2:27 call from Dawn (whether she spoke to TH or left a message) are the two most important calls in establishing the timeline of what actually happened, if we are to assume that Joellen and Dawn would be less biased than SA because they were not the ones on trial for murder.

However, as both of their timelines and recollection of events and phone calls noticeably changed from initial interviews to trial, notably in the prosecutions favor, it makes you wonder why. And also makes you wonder what happened to the voicemail Dawn left TH if she did as her initial statement indicated, or why did Dawn say TH called her if we know the 2:27 call was an incoming call to TH? Why is Dawn calling TH at 2:27pm if she knows that TH usually only works until 1pm? Lastly, why didn't detectives (Remiker, in particular) record TH's voicemail on the Zipperer phone when they listened to it, as they (Remiker) did to the voicemail TH left on the Janda phone?

[–]14MGh057

I think I'm agreeing with you on that. I always say if...then or if not...then. So I'll say I do believe the bus driver was thinking bout a different day. But one question of mine is, when AT would come out to take photos, I read in (I'll have to check where/who) testimony, the cars would be at or near the point where the bus driver would drop kids off (by the mailboxes), NOT usually parked in front of Barb and SAs trailer.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

There are cars parked all over the property. I am not sure that there was ever a pattern. Maybe the difference was personal cars vs other cars they were selling. It would be reasonable for them to park random cars away from their homes while parking their personal cars closer. The van was Barb's personal car.


[–]OpenMind4U

...so, we're eyewitness the murder trial with:

• dirty bias cops,
• unethical prosecutional conduct;
• non-professional forensics experts and investigators;
• corrupted officials;
• and...implanting 'MOLE'/Trojan Horse right inside of Avery's family?.....

And all of the above for what?!!! to find TH murderer or get rid off Avery's using TH 'disappearance'???

[–]CopperPipeDream[S]

So, Wiegert and Fassbender were suggesting that Barb move so as to remove the "reminder" of the crime? Is that what I'm hearing? Jesus. This is just too much. 

[–]OpenMind4U

...and not only suggesting to move out and buy new house but kind of 'promising'/gives hope/hint that BD is coming home...soon...?????

[–]NAmember81

I'm guessing that since there is no way in hell that those two goons could ever give a flying fuck about Barb and her family what they are really saying is "it's in your best interest to move because it reminds US and the community of the tyranny we needlessly inflicted upon Brendan".

Those goons were fearing the inevitable turn in tide of public opinion. The tide has finally arrived and like all brutes, tyrants and cowards they go into hiding once their victims rise up and see through their false facade of authority.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

Doesn't this fit nicely with the land grab theory?

It's interesting how Barb's thinking that they are talking about a short time frame - like she's bringing him home soon and it's awkward to be living there now.

But on his end, he knows Brendan is gone for decades - and even though he won't be home for at least 20 years, she should get rid of the place now.

[–]Strikeout21

This is exactly what I was thinking.. Break Barb's attachment to the land by getting her off of it, thus weakening the links that will fight for it when the state comes for it. I'm really starting to believe the Avery property is the motive for a lot of this. Is it sitting on a natural gas reservoir or something?

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

I don't think so. I just know that they are the last holdout - all surrounding property is held by the same owner. Their land is right in the middle of a very large holding. It's pretty clear that they are in the way...

[–]14MGh057

Yep. I bet Barb helped LE, IDK in what manner, but aided LE in getting SA arrested. Probably thought she and ST would get some $$$, never expecting anyone to believe BDs statements, expecting him to be 'let go'. But LE make mistakes by using private party citizen search participants to provide crucial evidence illegally through their search and seizure methods. Hence, no official photos taken during discovery of the MOST "crucial, compelling, evidence" which the state recovered. So for LE to cover their mistaken a$$es, they threw Barb under the bus. No wonder she lost it in the street after BDs trial. Not that I wouldn't be that upset either, but I would be more disturbed if I knew my hand was one who dealt BD another bad deal, and I didn't even get the "compensation" I thought was coming.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

I think Barb was manipulated by MCSO almost as much as Brendan was. That family never saw it coming.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

Possibly, but I don't think there necessarily has to be a motive. If they [Barb and Scott] were convinced they were doing the right thing, any perk they might receive for helping the prosecution would just be a thank you for their help.

I'm not so sure that any of this is as complicated as ulterior motives and conspiracy... These are pretty simple people.

[–]Yecart81

She's got some insecurity god complex with her brothers.

[–]Ctthrt

Disgusting people, everyone, Kratz, Culhane, etc. they should be all be behind bars. I wonder how many innocent people like BD they've thrown away, I'm sure the corruption runs deep.

[–]14MGh057

If there was a set-up (see, i stay open-minded), I think it run very deep and has been for years.

[–]CopperPipeDream

What was the connection between Barb and the two detectives that she felt comfortable enough to confide in them on a personal level let alone take their advice?? In short...W.T.F.?!

[–]MrDoradus

Dassey/Tadych family were all highly likely groomed by the investigators who played the "you can trust us we have your best interest at heart" card. I think the Dassey/Tadych family still believed that SA did it and Brendan was somehow involved during that period, despite all odds.

Fassbender and Weigert advising Barbara and her family to move was, imho, only because they feared the rest of the family (Dolores and Allan mostly) might convince the Dassey/Tadych family not to trust and work with LE. I wouldn't be surprised if they promised help with purchasing the house, financial or otherwise (getting them a "good loan", finding the house etc.). They not only got her son imprisoned but actually might pushed her into a bad financial situation too just because of their ulterior motives.

Edit: though I want to add that this is all pure speculation based on believing Barb's word that she really was advised by LE to move houses.

[–]Fred_J_Walsh

Is the suggestion that the Avery/Dasseys failed to follow the principle of omerte? Brendan did relate that Steven had told him not to talk to the cops. So, Steven tried.

[–]tworutroad

Probably so but I think there was also an element of humiliating Barb with that suggestion that she up and move. Obviously she doesn't have the money.

[–]14MGh057

Maybe BJT was one of the CIs?

[–]OpenMind4U

...I really want to know for sure!! If it's true then a lot of things could be cleared out...plus, in the Dispatch tape (the whole Dispatch tape on youtube) I can hear one woman call which remind me of BJ voice...

[–]14MGh057

I know this much: "Barb Janda T" was extracted from the report part of the CI document (not on page 2, but in the report). By extracted, I mean, whatever filter used IDK. I didn't ask. Font type and size were duplicated, add the filters, and then...You can see "Barb Janda T". You can see "Barb Janda T" (no period). You can see "Barb". And no, they're not showing this because if, in fact, the CI hint wasn't to bait everyone, but is factual, there might be ramifications for posting and exposing a potential CI. IMO tho, if the CI notation is real, I believe there were two of them, and I do think "Barb Janda T" was one. I'm not asking you to believe me because I saw it. I wouldn't expect that. I wish that person would share, but that person doesn't want to.

The marked CI lives in Two Rivers. Check the address line. Any info on who this is? Reimer is from Two Rivers.

Barb is listed as Mishicot, can see through the bad blackout.

Thanks for sharing. Is there a connection between Reimer and Barb Janda-Tadych in any documents that you know of? Was this around the time of Barb's arrest for possession of marijuana, which was on November 5th. Maybe this was her offered information to get out of jail?

[–]14MGh057

IDK, but but I'll check. I need direction sometimes.

RE: CI. that's why I think there a two CIs. Given what we know about the accuracy (inaccuracy) of their documents, and that 3 shell game theory, I question page 2 of that report. I find it hard to believe that they would leave any info of a CI even partially visible. HOWEVER, I do not find it hard to believe someone fell short of covering the info up!

Agree with you, if connection between Reimer and BJT, she might have been given an offer.
U blew me away w ur accurate summation of a timeline since the last batch uploads. I couldn't keep up with cross-checking LOL. You hit on some VERY important issues.

[–]Howsthemapples

I do believe Barb offered up something, some information to get out of jail. It seems so obvious?

So the "T" which you can make out peeping through at the end of the blacked out bit... You think is Barb Janda T? And it wouldn't have to say Barb Janda Tadych?

[–]14MGh057

With them, who knows. But let's say, that BJT is the name hidden. for me, that doesn't mean that the CI notation is true. After seeing ALL the mis-information generated as a result of THs death, there are a few things which are clear.. someone (or more) people lied, SOPs were NOT followed during the investigation & during evidence testing, and then there's the reporting of all this data. And like you, I'll listen to any theory involved with any piece of this case. I keep looking at the triangle, and there is a connector missing, IMO.

[–]innocens

Wasn't there a clip in MaM with Barbr talking to Wiegert about moving, whilst Brendan was sat there, having just been interrogated? Or in the longer clips released?

[–]MellieInMi

Just posted this as a comment (Link to video)

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4c5unu/fassbenderweigert_strange_suggestion_to_bjt/d1fb681

[–]s100181

Is it at the end of the video?

[–]MellieInMi

Yes. Video I posted will start right at that spot (at 3:47:50 of 4:19:20).

[–]RonnieGeo

Are you able to give context to what Barb is responding to?

It's hard to really understand much without the context.

Obviously, those two have no basis for offering financial advice, just wondering if maybe there was some other reason they were advising a move.

[–]devisan

If they were acting as financial advisors, that's nuts. But I wonder if there may have been a context of the Halbach's filing a wrongful death suit against Steven. It seems to me perhaps they could also have filed against Brendan and/or his legal guardians at the time, and being bankrupt might make that less likely.

And in any case, Barb would have been better off discussing her finances with a lawyer or at least a banker, but if it was a conversation about civil suits, that might sound slightly less deranged. Although, why she'd listen to them, I don't know.

I assume she consulted an attorney to file, and the attorney agreed with W&F. Maybe she's only citing them to give validity to her decision to file in the eyes of people who would sit in judgment of it.

[–]KennythePrize

They knew the confession was incredibly problematic. They were trying to drive a wedge between her and the rest of the family.

[–]lmogier

Was this the house that ST was living at when TH disappeared? The one that was subsequently torn down? Maybe they knew something happened there and wanted to make sure it was destroyed? Didn't they also tell ST to tell Barb to get BD to accept the plea deal....?

[–]CopperPipeDream

Not sure. There was BJ's trailer on the Avery lot. There was ST's trailer off HWY 147, two miles from the Avery property. And there was the new house they bought.

[–]Howsthemapples

Yes, BJ & BD getting put up in the hotel (Fox Hills Resort) to make their statements. But then BD goes and incriminates himself was not in the plan....

[–]misslisacarolfremont

Barb is easily suggestible. If Barb believes in her heart that Steven murdered Teresa Halbach and her bones were in his burn pit, as well as her own burn barrels, she is not going to want her and her family to continue living there. Also, they are getting tourists from all over the country visiting and even taking selfies in front of the Avery Salvage Yard sign. She would be hounded for interviews!

The bones at the Quarry
by snarf5000 at Reddit

"So Avery went to all that trouble to dispose of evidence of a body - including burning a second time after using a fucking Hammer & Chisel on the first incompletely incinerated cremains - but then... just leaves his work there in his backyard??" - elshorgio at Reddit

In the Dassey trial transcripts, forensic anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg testifies about the bone evidence. There is no mention of the quarry burn location in that trial.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6jzw/brendan_dassey_trial_transcripts/

(Day 4 page 49)

However the subject does come up in the Avery trial. In episode 6 at about 35min Dr. Eisenberg says that she "suspected" that a couple of bone fragments from the quarry site "appeared to be" from a human pelvis.

Here's what she says in the documentary: