Pam Sturm, a former private investigator, found Teresa Halbach's Rav4 in Avery Salvage Yard at 10:30 a.m. on Saturday, November 5th (hearing exhibit 17). Rather than calling 911, she called the cell phone of Calumet County Sheriff Jerry Page, her cousin by marriage.
There is not only a familial relationship (by marriage) between the Pagels and the Sturms, but a long-time, close professional relationship between the generational sheriffs of Pagels and generational fire chiefs of Sturms.
By KiwiBattlerNZ, Reddit (plus other comments on the thread)
On the private search party looking for Teresa on November 5th: Suddenly Pam Sturm shows up and suggests searching the Avery property after being told by Ryan Hillegas that no one was going there...
What was surprising is that Ryan Hillegas and Pamela Sturm (who is/was a private investigator) actually testified to the opposite — they said no one was going to search Avery's until she suggested it.
Q. How do you know Pam and Nikole?Page 167-168 of Day Two
A. I had met them Saturday morning. They showed up after the good majority of everybody else had left. But that was the first time I had met them.
Q. After, then, the first wave, if you will, of citizens got their maps and they went off to do their search; what did you and Pam Sturm discuss?
A. Well, Pam had showed up after pretty much the whole group of everybody had already left to search in the morning. And we had a good — you know, so many people, we had a good portion of everything that we had divvied up. Good portion of that was already handed out to other people. Wasn't much area left to search yet.
And she just asked, basically came out and said, had anybody gone to the car yard yet, the Avery Salvage Yard. We just said, no, that we hadn't been sending anybody in there and she offered to and said she would be willing to and --
Q. When you got there Pam, what happened?Page 199 of Day Two
A. Well, we got their late; the search team was already gone. Ryan and Scott were still there. And I asked them if I could help out. And they said, yes, they have maps for the area that they were going to search. And he showed me the map and then he showed me the picture of Teresa and all the details regarding Teresa.
And I indicated that I would like to go to the Avery Salvage Yard where Teresa was last seen. And he said, well, if you want to, it's not part of, you know, the search, but if you wish to do that, go ahead.
The simple fact is, the Avery Salvage Yard was not on the list until Pam Sturm showed up... suggesting that at that time it was not considered to be the last place she was seen.
I have to wonder if someone told Pam Sturm that the Avery yard would be an important place to search, considering how she's the one that changed the plans.
I also noticed that the above testimony contradicts this:
Q. Let me ask you something, Mr. Hillegas, why would you center or why would you direct some of your search efforts around the Avery property?Page 168, Day Two
A. Well, mostly for the fact that, you know, the media had covered so much of it. You know, all you heard about was around the Avery property. And I believe at that point we had known that, you know, her last kind of whereabouts were in that neck of the woods.
Q. So even as an untrained law enforcement officer, you knew to look for the last place she was seen alive; is that right?
A. Yes.
Page 165 of Day Two
A couple of pages later, he testified that no one was being sent to the Avery yard, and then Sturm testified that Hillegas told her it was not part of the search.
Hillegas testified that where she was last seen was "in that neck of the woods" not the Avery property itself, and they both testified that it was not intended to be part of the search that day.
I think it's pretty safe to say that at that point they did not believe Avery's yard was the last place she was seen. So why did the story change?
We have the telephone conversation between Wiegert and Remiker where it is said that Halbach went to the Avery property then the Zipperer property.
We have Hillegas and Sturm testifying that the Avery property wasn't even on the list of places to search until Sturm suggested it. And we have Hillegas testifying that the last place Halbach was seen was "in that neck of the woods" but not the Avery property itself.
Then Sturm goes there and within half an hour essentially walks directly to the RAV4.
It seems to me that she knew something about the Avery property that apparently no one else did.
Only Pam Sturm wanted to search there. The search party was not going to search the Avery yard until Pat Sturm showed up and specifically said she wanted to search there. Both her and Ryan Hillegas testified to that fact.
So, essentially, the story was changed after the fact. The evidence was pointing somewhere else until Pam Sturm miraculously found the RAV4 on the Avery property.
She testified she was guided by God. If she had guidance, it was from a very human source. Who guided her there? That's what I want to know. It sure as shit wasn't a fictional god. She isn't psychic, and angels didn't lead her there, but there is every reason to believe that she knew she would find that RAV4 there. So who told her it would be there?
My point is, there is no evidence that on the morning of November 5 — the day the RAV4 was found — that anyone thought the Avery property was the last place she was seen. No one testified that they knew it was the last place she was seen. We have the phone recording that shows the police believed that she had been to Zipperer's after the Avery property, and no evidence that they changed their opinion before the morning of November 5. In fact we have evidence that the search party was not even intending to search the Avery property, implying they believed it was not the last place she was seen.
She never testified that the reason she wanted to go there was because it was the last place Halbach was seen. Neither Ryan Hillegas nor Pat Sturm testified that they knew the Avery property was the last place she was seen. In fact, they both testified that no one even intended to go to the Avery property. The police did not believe the Avery property was the last place she was seen until after Pam Sturm made her miraculous discovery. There is no rational way she would have found that RAV4 so quickly. She knew it too, which is why she invoked God. The fact is, they either took their time looking in each vehicle for any sign of Halbach, as she testified, or she was lying on the witness stand. Either way, her story doesn't make sense unless she knew the RAV4 was there and had a very good idea where.
They're both saying Avery Salvage Yard itself wasn't being searched.Exactly. Yet, the implication has been that was the last place she was seen and everybody supposedly knew it. But they never planned to actually search there on the first day?
They're not saying they weren't looking anywhere near the Avery property.Exactly. The Zipperer residence is "near" the Avery property... "in that neck of the woods".
The question is, if they thought that morning that the Avery property was the last place she was seen alive, why did the search team not plan to search there?
I think you're reading way too much into specific phrasing — they knew Teresa would've been in that area when she was last seen, based on her phone records.You're the one reading into the testimony. You're assuming they thought that property was the last place she was seen, despite none of them actually testifying to that effect.
With the audio of the phone call between the detectives, it seems pretty clear that the police didn't believe that it was the last place she was seen at that time. The actions of the search team make it pretty clear they did not think it was the last place she was seen.
As I said... when did the story change? After the RAV4 was found?
Remember Teresa was reported missing the evening of Nov 3. This was very early on Nov 5.The video this thread is about has been dated to November 4, but some have suggested it was November 5. Either way, it seems that on the morning of November 5 the police believed the last place she was seen was the Zipperer property.
Why did that change? When did that change? And why was the former private investigator Pam Sturm the first to suggest searching the Avery property?
They'd basically only had a day to start sorting through information. The fact that they didn't have it all perfect yet isn't proof that she actually went to Zipperer's after Avery's.I'm not saying it is. I am suggesting that Pam Sturm was told something that caused her to want to go directly to the Avery property and from there almost directly to the RAV4.
Could the detectives have had a quiet word with her based on information they discovered on November 3rd or 4th? Could someone else have told her she would find the RAV4 there?
And it really isn't strange she'd find it so quickly. Have you seen pictures of the Yard? The way the RAV4 was parked and hidden, it would stand out.Yes, I have. I also read the testimony that it was at least 3 football fields from the crusher and even further from the entrance and the residences on the property. Yet she walked that 300 or so yards and went directly to the RAV4.
Here is an aerial photo of the yard with the locations marked
She must have walked past literally hundreds of vehicles without even pausing to look in them to cover that distance within the time frame she testified to. The RAV4 was found on the far edge of the yard from the entrance.
That's why she had to come up with the "divine guidance" excuse.
And just going in looking for a specific car means you can just generally walk up and down the rows at a decent pace, not that you need to stop to inspect every single car thoroughlySee, now you're not even sticking to the testimony:
Q. Now, which batch of vehicles did you search, if you can — if you can explain the kind of searching that you were doing; I'm sure the jury is going to be interested in that as well.Page 206-207 of Day Two
A. Okay. I started up here. And up here are trucks, cars, RVs. And we had tried to look in each and every one of them. And you can see there are rows here.
They didn't just quickly walk around. According to Pam Sturm, they supposedly "tried to look in each and every" vehicle they passed.
Here is another damning part of Ryan's testimony:
Q. And on November 3rd, can you tell the jury what you did, please?Page 158-159, Day Two
A. Yeah, in the afternoon, I believe it was, I'm going to say around 3:00 or so, Scott had called me and said that Teresa's dad had went over and asked if he had seen Teresa. And Scott called me and I went over to the house that afternoon. Basically, tried digging up any information on where she might be. We started calling her friends. We found a list of her friends on her computer with all their numbers. So we started calling all them to see if anybody had whereabouts. And then after that we printed off her cell phone records off the internet, just to see what calls she had made, or other numbers of friends we could find on there.
Q. Had you known at that time that she hadn't been seen since the 31st of October?Page 159, Day Two
A. Basically, I knew that she was missing. I didn't know she hadn't been seen by anybody. But I knew that -- knew that she was missing or decided that she was missing at that point.
Q. After printing off or getting access to her cell phone records, I assume to her account, through her cell phone provider; were you able to provide that information to law enforcement authorities?
A. Yes.
So on November 3rd he had her phone records, but did not know she hadn't been seen, and thus couldn't know the last place she was seen.
Knowing who she called doesn't tell you who saw her last.
On November 4 (or November 5) Wiegert and Remiker were talking about her being at Zipperer's after Avery's... So the next day (or a day later) the police did not know where she was seen last.
Later, when asked how he knew the Avery property was the last place she was seen, Hillegas deferred. He did not say he knew the Avery property was the last place she was seen — just "that neck of the woods" — and he did not say the phone records led him to that conclusion, just that the media were talking about the Avery property...
Can you point me to the page number?I got my Sturms mixed up. It was Nicole Sturm, on page 14 of Day 3. Put simply they were not just walking past vehicles, they were looking inside them — at least 50 each — to see if they could see her body or anything that might indicate her presence. But they walked in essentially a straight line over 300 yards directly to the RAV4, while at least "glancing" in over 50 vehicles each. And note, most of those vehicles were parked perpendicular to their line of travel, so every few yards south, they would have to walk a yard or two between each vehicle to look inside them.
Earl Avery went rabbit hunting "down in the pit" with Robert Fabian, driving past the spot where the Rav4 would be found on Saturday, November 5th. Earl said the Rav4 wasn't there when they drove past. Fabian said that he went rabbit hunting with Earl around 4:30 p.m. on October 31st, but he is lying or mistaken. He was at the Avery property rabbit hunting with Earl on Wednesday, November 2nd (CASO file, page 208 and page 237). At the pre-trial hearing (page 172), Earl said it was Wednesday or Thursday, not Monday, October 31st, when he and Fabian went rabbit hunting at the Avery property (Fabian and Earl's statements given to detectives in November 2005 were coerced and not truthful).
Who was the RAV4 hidden from?
By engineerairborne
May 5, 2016
The sticks and hood and other things seemed to have not done any good in hiding the RAV4. In fact, for Pam of God, it lead her to it. I'm assuming if you own a junk yard you make daily trips to check things out. If it was me this would scream something odd. If your a searcher sane thing. So I'm puzzled was this to hide it or mark it?
[–]Ductit
Well, considering they were letting customers search the salvage yard for parts to buy, like they would any other day, it is baffling to think anyone on the Avery property would put it out there and not think it would be found...
This is a six model year old Toyota Rav4 with almost no damage (aside from the front left fender/bumper), in completely drivable condition with all 4 tires ready to go, a nice interior (minus a few blood stains and a missing cargo mat), and a good engine, even with a battery under the hood ready to be connected.
In other words, this car in a salvage yard is a big WTF to anyone that has ever gone to a salvage yard. That car had NO place in a salvage yard, it was worth probably 10x what any other car on that lot was worth, easily. People don't send six model year old 4wd vehicles to a salvage yard unless they are totaled or burnt to a crisp. Even with a BLOWN engine or driveline, that Rav4 was NOWHERE near being justifiable to be sent to a salvage yard. It would not have gone unnoticed.
[–]engineerairborne
That is an even better point. So this is an active business, and word is out to be on the look out for this RAV4. So it is next to impossible that it was sitting out on the property for any length of time, else someone would have seen it, to include one of the works, or a customer. Kind of convenient or divine that it is put in place the night before Pam of God finds it.
[–]pdentt
Very good point. Gives me more reason to believe it was planted night of the 4th and Pam starts her early search the very next day and finds...ALMOST eradicates the chance of a customer, not completely however. The yard opens at 8am...
[–]JJacks61
In other words, this car in a salvage yard is a big WTF to anyone that has ever gone to a salvage yard.
Nailed it. And Pammy's comment about it being all covered up. If I had been out looking for a part and saw a car like that just sitting there, I would have high tailed it to the office and offered Chuck $500 bucks on the spot.
[–]Ductit
Haha and then you would have seen the missing poster they had right there at the office front desk and immediately called 911.
[–]OpenMind4U
Great points!!! Plus, something else to remember. The crusher, the closest distance to RAV4 'hidden' place, was operational on 11/3...I made post not long ago to show that from the crusher area you would have the BEST non-disturbed view of this 'hidden' place. Chuck or Earl would definitely see RAV4 on 11/3...if RAV4 would be there. I have absolutely no doubts about...btw, interestingly enough, CI (see MTSO report) was agree with me too...hahaha...:)
[–]DeenahWeenah
The 'camouflage' was actually the total opposite. The Defense attorneys knew this when they questioned PS and her daughter NS. Buting specifically brought up the fact that the RAV4 was the only car with 'camouflage' in that area, which made it stand out like a sore thumb. Also it was the only car on the ridge that was double parked, once again making it stand out like a bright blue beacon! Why would SA want to make the car stand out if he killed TH? Even someone with a low IQ would know to crush the car and put it under some other crushed cars, or something!
[–]engineerairborne
Or just not hide it on the property. Hell, take it a mile or two down the road and set it on fire. Sure it would be found, but all the evidence is gone, that blood SA had to of known he left behind, if he was bleeding as much as he was would have, gone up in flames.
[–]newtothegame2016
Or how about take a sledge to it and make it LOOK like a junker. Which is an easier way to 'hide' a car in a junk yard? That "I think like a cop' way or throw some dents in it, take the hub caps off and pop a tire. It would have taken him like 10 minutes and that thing would have looked 'normal' there. Plus...He does this October 31st...and the next two days he's just 'okay', feels 'good' about the car just kind of hanging out over there like that? Before he heads up north? He just obliterated this chick and what? forgets her car, all shiny and new-ish (comparatively) sitting in his yard??? For two days? These "SA did it" theories are so watered down in my mind. They make ZERO sense compared to ANY other possibility.
[–]solunaView
Exactly this. If SA was so obsessed with fire then he would have driven the car off the property and torched it. Simple, and all evidence gone.
The car was placed on the property so that it would be found and so it would implicate SA.
If LE knew everyone but Earl would be in Crivitz on Saturday morning it is possible they hid it there.
[–]justagirlinid
Except the family would notice right away this 'camouflage', as others have mentioned. They work in this yard daily. It would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Camouflaged, double-parked, not in the correct year area of the yard, and in much better condition than probably any other car on the lot. I believe it was meant to stick out to the person who needed to 'find' it.
[–]solunaView
This is why I think it was probably put there in the early morning hours of the 5th. However, there is the "hide in plain sight" thing. Whatever the case, I don't think the car was there long before it was found.
"The boss has something he'd like for us to do." A look at Pagel's activities and focus before the car is found
By Sacredtrust61
May 3, 2016
Since Msminxster’s thread about Pagel, Sturm and Halbach connections (https://redd.it/4heeb4), I thought it might be interesting to look at Pagel’s areas of focus before the car was found. Following is a summary of his activities from the CASO reports chronologically; and additionally, those instances where it is specifically stated that he ordered personnel to do something.
11/03/05 Pagel receives call from Wiegert about missing persons case of TH. Scans TH photos and calls TV stations.
11/04 7:30 am - Pagel requests Schultz contact seniors at Hilbert High and check the Town of Brillion to see if he could locate TH vehicle. “Sheriff PAGEL asked that I make contact with the seniors at HILBERT HIGH SCHOOL to see if any information could be gained as well as check the area in the Town of Brillion due to my familiarity with that area to see if I could locate TERESA's vehicle.”
Pagel also requests that Schultz check 864-xxxx number to find out who it is. Schutlz determines that number is BC’s and tells Pagel
11:04 10:08 am - Pagel and Wiegert go to TH residence. Met with RH and friends.
11/04 10:35 am - While there, TH friend asks to speak to Pagel and Wiegert separately and shows them BC’s and wife’s photos. Takes photos.
11/04 Time not stated - Pagel gives Sippel long distance list that dates back to 2004. First call she makes is to BC, his message machine. (It is likely this call is before 11:05 am because a later call to another phone number she says she hasn’t received a call back from that call at 11:05 am.)
11/04 - Pagel and Wiegert request that Baldwin prepare Subpoenas for TH’s cellular history, financial records as well as her home phone company.
11/04 1:19 – 5:54 pm - Pagel and Baldwin flyover. Pagel’s report mentions flying over Zipperer’s, Avery’s, Mishicot, Brown County and finally to TH residence to Mishicot via the 10.
11/04 Time not stated - Pagel personally contacts TH's bank M&I Bank to provide subpoena for financial records. Obtains records and ascertains that no activity after 10/31.
11/05/ 8:30 am - Pagel and Dedering go to TH's residence and determine that the AutoTrader fax “probably” was sent from her address. Their stated reason for going to her residence while RH is organizing the various volunteer search parties is to make sure that her fax, indeed, was programmed to be sent from the residence with that phone number. It was Pagel's second time at TH's residence.
11/05 Time not stated – Pagel meets with Wiegert and Dedering at the sheriff s department. "I had received information that several of TERESA's family and friends were planning a search of the Mishicot area. I informed Invs. WIEGERT and DEDERING that we should speak with STEVEN AVERY to ascertain if he would allow us to search the salvage yard and we could utilize the friends and families to expedite the search." He is about to leave department and travel to Avery’s when he receives call from Sturm.
Thoughts:
1) Why talk to Seniors at Hilbert High School and search of Brillion? I thought she coached volleyball at St. Johns. From obituary “She coached her younger sister's 7th grade volleyball team at St. John-Sacred Heart School.”
2) There seems to be a vested interest in having personnel get in touch with BC, and he personally speaks with TH's friend and obtains BC’s photos.
3) Seem interested in phone records and financial records. Appears to obtain financial records himself.
4) And this is noteworthy: Pagel is at TH’s house on 8:30 am 11/05 (Page 56 Dedering Report CASO). He is there at 8:30am to check if the fax really came from Th’s residence. Meanwhile Sturm testifies she is at TH residence meeting Ryan and Scott at 9am (Day 2, page 199).
5) Also noteworthy: 11/05 in the morning—before car is found but not determined if it was before or after he checked the fax at TH's residence, and with really no constructive reported news regarding Avery as a suspect—he states in his report that "I informed Invs. WIEGERT and DEDERING that we should speak with STEVEN AVERY to ascertain if he would allow us to search the salvage yard and we could utilize the friends and families to expedite the search." And then, what a coincidence, he receives a call from Sturm. Imagine that.
[–]Sacredtrust61
I always wondered why Pagel was checking Teresa's fax on the morning of November 5th, and then I realized it may have been an excuse just to coordinate everything that morning. I rechecked that both Pagel and Sturm met at TH residence, and the day and time, because I was a little stunned. [–]innocens
"And this is noteworthy: Pagel is at TH’s house on 8:30 am 11/05 (Page 56 Dedering Report CASO). He is there to check if the fax really came from Th’s residence. Meanwhile Sturm testifies she is at TH residence meeting Ryan and Scott at 9am (Day 2, page 199). "
OMG! & OMG!
Why would the Sheriff have to go to TH's house, so early in the morning, to check something so minor? Baldwin or any minion could have done that!!
So the fax is an excuse, surely? He's there with Ryan, Scott and Sturm. Ryan didn't give her Pagel's number, Pagel did.
Pam was sent to 'find' the RAV by someone who knew exactly where it was.
And Pagel would know where to send her, because he did the flyover the day before.
[–]NAmember81
Plus Pam Sturm arrived "late" while everybody else had already left and was searching elsewhere. So SB and Ryan Hillegas stay back, after everybody else leaves, and waits for Pam to arrive.
Meanwhile, Pagel probably shows up shortly after the other search volunteers departed; and soon after he arrives, his relative (Pam) shows up, and within an hour and a half, Pam gets permission directly from Earl to search for Teresa, camera hid under her jacket, a map of where to look and a direct phone line to Pagel and finds the RAV4. How convenient. My guess is that this was a planned meeting at 9am.
[–]foghaze
My guess is that this was a planned meeting at 9am.
Totally! CALUMET and MANITOWOC were all in bed together! I am 100% convinced.
[–]rogblake
And Pagel would know where to send her, because he did the flyover the day before.
It (the RAV4) didn't appear to be there on the 4th during Pagel's flyover, though. Remember that Steven and his brother saw tail lights from the pit area on the night of the 4th.
[–]innocens
Agreed. I think the flyover was about mapping the site; checking the roads in and out; and finding a place to put the RAV.
[–]eyesclosing
Some people claim the flyover on the 4th was done to locate a spot to park the Rav as part of the frame. If true then Pagel was there on the 4th when a spot was decided and could direct Pam straight to it.
[–]innocens
What I meant was the flyover gave them a 'map' of where to put the car and how to get it on there. Then simply show Pam on a still from the video where to go.
[–]Sacredtrust61
What is interesting is that Pagel was probably with Sturm and RH that morning. And it is probable that Pagel gave her his number directly; although now that we know that they have a close familial connection maybe she has always had it on speed dial. ;)
[–]GiltyMe
Then if you can control the search for it by using a bunch of volunteers you send off in one direction and the chosen two in another, you can make sure that there are no surprises. Not having a bunch of LE, that you might not be able to control, stumble upon makes the whole frame job a lot easier.
[–]innocens
That's a good point about sending the other volunteers in another direction.
[–]avgjoe2016
Its called misdirection in football. We should have known Pagel was this wise.
[–]Sacredtrust61
Well the buck stops somewhere. Pam Sturm and Ryan Hillega might have lied about the car being found but Pagel is there that morning seemingly setting it up. That is being complicit, if not overtly instructing "the find." As Zellner says, how long will people continue to lie knowing the real truth? Why not come forward and tell the truth? Being friends and relatives of participants isn't good enough and it certainly can't be called noble if it doesn't allow for the truth. The truth shall set them free.
[–]PerceivedAnonymity
It seems that there was prior knowledge as to the location of the car before it was officially found. If we knew, how they came to getting that knowledge I am sure it might answer a question or two for us.
With regards to your point about Pagel being a father of three and that he would have acted with a lot more urgency if he had known the day prior, I have one question. They found the RAV4 on the 5th but did not open it, until the following day ( I stand to be corrected on this fact). If indeed there was an urgency to use what ever information or evidence there was at hand to track down a missing female, I would believe that that car should have been opened straight away. Why did they wait until the next day to open it? Or why did they say they waited until the next day to open it?
[–]Powerdan74
Them not opening the vehicle until the next day is such a bizarre thing. I am completely baffled as to why they didn't. I get that they could probably see she wasn't in there, but any evidence they find may lead to discovering her still alive. Time should have been too important to waste; instead, they are more concerned with something else, IMO preserving the possible evidence against Avery. All of this leads me back to the one not so simple question...Did they know Teresa was already dead at this point?
[–]dark-dare
Pagal, the man of integrity, looked right into a news camera and lied about the FBI report saying the TH bones were a match to her mother, Karen. He sat front and center with Kratz at the press conference. He was providing misinformation to the public to taint the jury pool and was an integral player in convicting two innocent people. If he was a man of integrity he would care that his three daughters live in a community where a killer walks free, due to police misconduct. He was in charge of this investigation, so he and only he is to blame for this inept bullshit; all those detectives were under him. He is forever tainted.
[–]luckystar2591
Several have already been shown to be lying through their teeth on the Penny Beerntsen case.
[–]luckystar2591
Half the police lied on the Penny Beerntsen rape case...at this point I wouldn't trust the word of anyone with a badge.
[–]Sacredtrust61
I was mad that I sit around and wait for other people to do things and I had always discounted Pagel as a puppet of some sort and then based upon other new things coming to light, I started thinking that we need to look at what he was actually doing. What was important to him during these hours?
[–]Account1117 0 points 1 day ago
Why would the Sheriff have to go to TH's house, so early in the morning, to check something so minor? Baldwin or any minion could have done that!!
[–]innocens 5 points 1 day ago
Limited resources maybe
Sheriff Pagel and Dedering both went, at the same time, to check a fax.
Does that sound like limited resources to you?
Dedering didn't need the sheriff to help him with such a menial task.
[–]innocens 3 points 1 day ago
But will you concede that the Sheriff and a senior investigator going to check on a fax is over the top? Like sending a surgeon to put on a plaster?
[–]vapergrl 3 points 1 day ago
In the call between Wiegert and Remiker, Wiegert says "the boss" and the "new chick" did the flyover. I asked in another topic yesterday who went up and it was Pagel and Baldwin, so the boss must be Pagel.
By dark-dare
submitted by MsMinxster
WinnebagoMentalHealthInstitute........EE.......who wrote the notes??
ReplyDelete[–]WeKnowWhooh [score hidden]
DeleteFreed on 9-11....ik...ik...5ikiKEY......all the clues are there.....5(E)...backward 4(D)....backward 7(7 letters in last name)...WinnebagoMentalHealthInstitute(mirror image(EE))....so simple....
or she has a head wound and is at the WinnebagoMentalHealthInstitute...I seen her....Carol.
WinnebagoMentalHealthInstitute(EE)
Just the fact that none of the evidence adds up.....these cops wouldn't risk their cushy pensions to frame somebody....and none of TH's male friends are killers or any of the Avery clan for that matter.....the killer is the framer is the person nobody knew about before MaM!!
.real murderer wasn't even in the movie!
checka-duh-ID
[–]pdentt
My belief with all of this, is that TH was found dead lying in her boot, dead from gun shot wounds found by Colburn or someone connected to Mantiwoc. I believe the cops gota tip off regarding the cars whereabouts. Be it at Zipperers or at a place unknown. At this point I believe the conspiracy starts, the car was taken to CLEVELAND AUTO SALES & SALVAGE. The body was destroyed in a smelter and from there on in the RAV4 was towed to Averys. I don't believe for a second the body was destroyed at the quarry or Averys.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4cuwut/zander_rd_ad_sikikey_same_d_in_rd_checkaduhid/
[–]Classic_Griswald[S] 10 points 18 hours ago
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's always astonished me that it was Pam Sturm, late to the search party, who suggested going to Avery Salvage. Why didn't everyone else, who had already left on searches, suggest that?
That's total horse shit, as we are well aware. I'm guessing Pam was talking to Pagel prior too, likely why she had his number.
Im not sure how anyone could think it was "Pam's idea" any more than it was god's idea, after listening to "the boss" lay out the plans for the day.
Ryan testified Pam showed up after all the searchers left and asked 'Has anyone searched the Salvage yard'. So she came with a plan. And that plan included getting a camera and direct line to Pagel. Who I assume is 'the boss' (or is in direct contact with the boss) who arranged for it to all go down.
The whole calling the car in is really contrived and, there's also another call coming in from what sounds like Pam and, there's her normal call into dispatch, which people have commented it sounds like she called in just so it could be recorded. But then in her testimony she says she called Pagel (who she had the direct line to) so it just makes no sense at all.
Realistically, Im not sure how this alone doesn't sink the entire case. She was acting as an agent of CASO, and her, Pagel and all of them are lying out their ass about it. But I guess that needs to be proven for it to even be a valid argument.
[–]foghaze 2 points 4 hours ago
I noticed in Pam's pretrial testimony regarding the camera she says she borrowed theirs because she "Forgot" hers. FORGOT? Was she instructed to bring one beforehand? This statement is pretty revealing. Normally you would just say I didn't bring my camera. The statement makes complete sense if if she was instructed to do so beforehand. When she arrives she forgets it and borrows theirs.
The more I think about it the more it makes sense why Pam was chosen for the job. It could be for no other reason than her credentials.
[–]51kikey 2 points 4 hours ago
What amazes me is that none of the search party suggested searching the salvage yard. I can't prove it but I'm sure someone must have. The problem being, that if someone did suggest it then someone must have said not to. To me, the 3 most obvious places to look were the 3 places she had appointments that day.
[–]Lolabird61 4 points 16 hours ago
I have been able to connect the dots between the Pagel and Halbach families. If Pam O' God is related to Halbachs on Teresa's dad's side rather than her mom's, they are all part of one huge clan. Nepotism.
[–]Thewormsate 2 points 13 hours ago
And this is how this town runs.....clan. inner circle for the special one's!
[–]WeKnowWhooh 1 point 15 hours ago
Lola...was TH's moms husband her late husbands brother?
[–]Lolabird61 2 points 14 hours ago
Yes.
[–]MMonroe54 7 points 16 hours ago
Buting made it clear how little he believed the Pam Story. But he couldn't prove it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4m90gs/mtso_thought_th_went_to_zipperers_after_averys/?sort=new
Pam mentioned that she is a second cousin to Teresa Halbach through Teresa's dad. Pam failed to mention that she is Sherrif Pagel's cousin by marriage.
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