There's a certain group of people (the Good Ole Boys Club) that think they run the town: the "undesirables" get setup and charged with felonies and get disarmed.
Denis Vogel appears to be working for the OLR - Office of Lawyer Regulation
By Classic_Griswald, TickTockManitowoc
May 28, 2016
WSCCA Search - If you search here, it will bring up any appeals case the lawyer you are searching is involved in.
https://wscca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl
Here he is listed as a complainant for the OLR:
http://i.imgur.com/RMUxqwU.jpg
A search in the database kicks back about 8 results where it's the same thing.
Each of the cases are against whatever lawyer in question that is undergoing a OLR review, or case against them.
Vogel is listed as a complainant aka: plaintiff. I don't know how to interpret it other than him working on behalf of the OLR.
Supreme Court offices Office of Lawyer Regulation
The Office of Lawyer Regulation (OLR) is an agency of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. OLR receives grievances relating to lawyer misconduct, conducts investigations, and prosecutes violations of lawyer ethics rules.
[–]devisan
He should have been in trouble with the OLR himself for bringing a case against SA when there were such good reasons to suspect GA instead.
[–]carbon8dbev
But wait, there's more!
*Since 1992 and currently Municipal Judge for the Village of Maple Bluff
*Served as a Director of the General Practice Section of the State Bar of Wisconsin
*Selected to serve as instructor for Judicial Education Programs for Municipal Judges
[–]MMonroe54
This is the organization KK was doing battle with...and held a position on, if I recall correctly. His emails and letters to the then head of the OLR indicate his outrage that he might be asked to resign his position and his disagreement with their decisions. Revealing and interesting reading.
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
Yep. Kratz managed to cover up his crimes for about a year, until the media and others got wind of it, then it became political for Van Hollen. Van Hollen's office was directly implicated in covering up for a DA of his own, that supports him politically.
That's why Kratz said to reporter Foley that he was being used, and implied there was a political conspiracy against him.
Poor Kratz, the true conspiracy theorist. All the while involved in an actual conspiracy of corruption and cover up. Its actually pretty disgusting if you read his interactions with the DOJ investigators who were investigating him.
He still tried to keep the cover up rolling, threatening and berating the investigators. Even after it was already blown up.
The guy is relentless.
Can you imagine the same thing coming from Avery? The equivalent would've been Avery sending Kratz emails...
"Kratz, I hope you know who my boss is! because they wouldn't want to hear how you are talking to me!, you can't go and tell the media anything about me, and don't even think about disseminating the RAV4 was found on my property, since you have no authority to do so!
Sound absurd? Yeah, because it is. Avery talking like this is the equivalent of how Kratz got out of his legal problems. In the end he had a supreme court decision, with the benefit of a "referee" and the OLR.
Decision not to prosecute him criminal was based on a witness who was unreliable, because she had a criminal record (which Kratz himself had prosecuted), and a past drug habit (which Kratz himself had at the time).
Hilarious actually. By the same standard Avery never would've been charged.
[–]Pantherpad
Yes, it was a disgusting sweep it under the rug kind of debate. I remember reading the KK email exchange and it was obvious that although they probably felt he deserved a harsher penalty, KK still was so arrogant in his emails defending himself.
[–]MMonroe54
He still tried to keep the cover up rolling, threatening and berating the investigators. Even after it was already blown up.
He was literally astonished that he was being held to standards that he had held others to. That his license was merely suspended and he lost his DA position shows just how unwilling they were to dispense true justice.
[–]carbon8dbev
Clearly, the OLR is doing a fantastic job in WI.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/114879194.html
These fine upstanding family men have nothing to hide!
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/115396204.html
"The system is run by lawyers and is for lawyers," said Michael Frisch, a national expert in legal discipline who teaches law at Georgetown University. "It's called self-regulation, and it's a pretty good system for lawyers."
...and the stories above are mostly just about regular lawyers, not the exalted DOJ echelon. Kratz's punishment was probably actually fairly severe in comparison to the BS we never hear about.
[–]TIGMIGWELD
I have lived in WI my whole life and I am just learning of this bullshit leniency towards corrupt lawyers. That 1st asshole in the article that tried luring a 14-year-old girl from his office computer should be rotting in prison. I hope my kids will witness a better WI than what I have. Im calling every # at the end of the article to put my 2 cents in.
[–]e-gregious
Luring a 14-year-old from his office computer?
Isn't that a federal crime?
[–]e-gregious
Joseph Engl. Reprimanded after he was convicted in 2004 of using the computer in his downtown law office to set up an attempted sexual encounter with a 14-year-old girl who was actually a Milwaukee County sheriff's deputy. Engl, now 34, was sentenced to four years' probation for the felony. His law license was never suspended.
This is quoted from the first article. Four years' probation for the felony. Law license was never suspended.
Another quote from the article:
Statistics provided by the state Supreme Court's Office of Lawyer Regulation show that in about 40% of the cases reviewed by the agency, lawyers who received only minor sanctions for violating discipline rules went on to reoffend.
Bolding mine.
Incredible. Minor sanctions lead to 40% reoffending. Mind-boggling.
I thought it was federal because it was using a computer to commit a sex crime (pedophile).
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
You realize how bizarre it is to read that, while people go off on Avery for his unproven indiscretions? There is a huge cognitive dissonance here.
The Avery's are being called a 'one branch tree' and people claiming they need to be eradicated, police and lawyers hellbent on completely dismantling the family, while the same time the upper crust of the area is running around committing the same crimes, while bringing charges against others, highlighting their misdeeds instead of their own.
If people can't see the level of 'wrong' there, Im not sure what would uncover it for them.
[–]e-gregious
"while bringing charges against others, highlighting their misdeeds instead of their own."
Yes, the lawyers do not seem to have to go through any criminal proceedings for criminal acts. They are "sanctioned" by their own, not criminally prosecuted.
Can you imagine if any one of those "one branch tree of evil" had attempted to lure an underage girl to their workplace?
I can. First, the lurid press conference. Let that simmer and boil for a while. Waiting for presumption of innocence to go up in vapors. Then, get a jury of tainted jurors together to find them guilty and sentence them to the fullest extent of the law.
Cognitive dissonance, oh, yes. Criminally unfair to anyone that is not a member of law enforcement.
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
Exactly this. And we are now learning the Avery family may have been seen as a Law Enforcement family themselves back in the day, just not as well engrained like the Remiker, Pagel, Kocourek-line. (Which includes a number of additional names but they are all related/loosely related)
Pagel himself is referred to as, Jerry Pagel of the Pagel Sheriff's Line, by people in town. I believe his family were firefighters as well at some point.
What I'm trying to hint at though, is it appears there may have been factions, but the Avery's simply were not as political. They were out of their league.
While political factions seemingly conspired against them, they didn't have enough of a presence in the LE forces, when opposing political forces (factions) took over, they purged the Avery's and rebranded them everywhere as criminals.
Once Kocourek was in power he seemed to have prevented Arland from getting anywhere in MTSO, and the other Avery officers had retired by then I think.
I guess it ties in with the old modern day idioms that police and criminals are the same, in that they are driven by the same mentality, and if you take any of them, revert them to the blank state of childhood, its merely environmental factors which determine what side they end up on.
An especially frightful thought when you look at the lack of accountability and lack of discipline, and lack of a dozen other factors that could possibly keep these people in check, or right wrongs, in Manitowoc.
[–]e-gregious
"What I'm trying to hint at, though, is it appears there may have been factions, but the Avery's simply were not as political. They were out of their league."
You know, this is something that has been simmering around in my brain for a while.
Dammit, I am just gonna say it. Were the Avery's not members of the Catholic Church?
After reading about Notre Dame, another Jesuit School, Detroit Mercy (?) too.
I never would have thought this kind of conspiracy would occur to me. I thought it would be too far fetched. I was raised a Roman Catholic (I grew out of it).
But, I saw a documentary about a priest who abused the deaf boys at the school they attended for decades. Decades.
The church surrounded and protected him from harm.
It was heartbreaking to see those men angrily sign their disgust and dismay at the lack of help from the very church who sent their abuser.
The title was something like "Mea Culpa Maxima".
Sigh.....you probably already know where this school for deaf boys is located. Wisconsin
[–]knowjustice
It is the same in every state. And if you think the attorney grievance commissions are corrupt, take a look at the stats for disciplinary actions against judges.
The ABA is the most elite, mono cultural club in this nation. My affectionate term for the " Club," the "Just Us System."
[–]Trunkyuk
That first article!!! You couldn't make that up. No one would believe it. Hypocrisy thy name is Winsconsin Law. Bracing myself for the second link now.
[–]Trunkyuk
Heartbreaking. The worst of it is that this will continue to happen because there is clearly no will to change. Disgusted.
[–]JJacks61
Holy hell. The hypocrisy so thick you can cut it with a knife.
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
The irony in that is unbelievable.
[–]JJacks61
Gris, I think you wrote another post a while back. IIRC you had said after some information came out after the PB case, Vogel resigned as DA and hauled ass. Doing a quick search I haven't found your post, still looking.
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
Yes, it was Douglas Jones, the DA. He found exculpatory evidence in the Steven Avery file. I think? Or maybe he found it later. I can't quite remember. But anyway, someone found it in the Avery file, Vogel bounced. Just up and quit.
[–]solunaView
What was the exculpatory evidence?
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
The chief of police sent over a file on Allen.
[–]JLWhitaker
By the case you cite in the edit, it appears it's a contracted role rather than an 'employment' relationship.
[–]Classic_Griswald[S]
Yes, but the nature of OLR is sporadic, since its a disciplinary committee. Any use of Vogel is too much. He should've been up in front of them, not arguing law for them.
I think what I was trying to hint at, is from my understanding at least, the OLR isn't a big office or organization where people are all working 9-5. Im sure a few people are voted in or whatever (I'm not sure exactly how its structured TBH) but its certainly not a constant, pervasive organization. So I mean to say that a lot of people that work within it probably have similar temp status. But its crazy to think of Vogel working for it.
Looking back now its no wonder Kratz first reports were buried for a year by the OLR. It wasn't until a year later and Van Hollen got attacked publicly, but then it begs the question, what else was going on behind the scenes for Kratz case? And what about every other case? How many are actual disciplinary measures and how many cases are simply personal retribution for someone in a controlling position for instance?
[–]lrbinfrisco and RiversidePrincess
Here is an excerpt from another thread that is important to consider in regards to the magnitude of motivation of a particular person to frame Steven Avery. The entire OP is interesting reading!
https://m.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/51s6ex/making_a_murderer_and_tick_tock_manitowoc_for/
Kocourek was definitely worried. He apparently assumed the insurance coverage the county had would not cover the punitive damages. Kocourek's lawyers demanded his homeowners insurance cover any potential damages from the lawsuit.
Below we see that State Farm was not going to cover the bill for his intentional misconduct:
Intervenor Complaint - State FarmThis was a desperate move by Kocourek. The plan of a panicked man who suspected the lawsuit would ruin him.
The defendant, Thomas Kocourek, has tendered this case to State Farm, seeking a defense against the lawsuit and payment of any damages which the plaintiff may recover.
Steven Avery filed this complaint against Thomas K. Kocourek in his official capacity as the Sheriff of Manitiwoc County, seeking damages for actions taken by Mr. Kocourek during a 1985 criminal investigation. The complaint alleged that, at all times, Thomas K. Kocourek was acting within the scope of his employment as the Sheriff of Manitowoc County; and, that he acted intentionally.
If the allegations of the complaint were proven, State Farm would not be obligated to defend or indemnify Thomas K. Kocourek because the homeowner's policy does not apply to damages that arise out of the insured's business or profession; neither does it apply to his intentional acts.
Insurance companies will usually argue that they should only have to cover the 'actual damages' (compensatory damages) and not the punitive portion of the ruling, especially if the plaintiff alleges the misconduct was intentional. Again, punitive damages are intended as a punishment/deterrent, so it is common for the defendant to bear the burden of the punitive damages themselves; otherwise, it would not be much of a deterrent.
Further, any insurance that Manitowoc County would have been able to claim for the compensatory damages would had to have been active in 1985. I think anyone who cares to look into it will see that, in 1985, not many insurance policies included coverage that would apply to damages incurred from a wrongful conviction that was malicious in nature.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuperMaM/comments/5h5tco/clearing_up_who_was_being_sued_for_what/
Although I'm not an expert, from what I'm interpreting here, indemnity may have come down to one thing: negligence vs intentional/malicious.
And I can't help but wonder if they were worried the smoking gun proving malice or possibly criminal behavior (which he would've been screwed in case of any criminal conviction arising from the conduct) was going to come out during their depositions.
Hence, the motion put forth by Tom Kocourek's attorney to protect him from answering questions on the basis of attorney/client privilege and qualified immunity, which, as we know, the judge denied on October 26th.....less than a week before Teresa Halbach's disappearance - which incredibly conveniently happened just over a week before his scheduled deposition.
It sounds to me like they knew he had something he needed to hide in order to retain indemnity and coverage. Or maybe it's just standard practice, but if so, why didn't anyone else make the same request?
We just don't know enough to speculate what was going to come out in the depos of Tom Kocoureck and Denis Vogel, because by an extraordinary stroke of luck, they didn't have to participate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuperMaM/comments/5h5tco/clearing_up_who_was_being_sued_for_what/
Maybe it's confirmation bias on my part, but it's been really obvious for a long time to me that someone in LE/former LE (Tom Kocourek or Ken Petersen) organized a hit to end their troubles with Steven Avery forever.
TK's personal policy with State Farm and their motion to refuse coverage:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5691be1b25981daa98f417c8/t/569850c64bf118ad2a6276d8/1452822727114/state+farm+letter+2.pdf
There's no way on God's green Earth that - if it wasn't SA (which I'm on the extreme side of confidence it was NOT) - they'd knowingly wrongfully convict him again after their butts were so hugely on the line last time. There's no way they'd risk framing him if they thought the real story could ever possibly come out in their lifetimes. And this is one of the many reasons it HAD to be someone in LE behind TH's untimely demise. SA initially said it was TK setting him up. Not saying that TK didn't have help, but I do think SA's probably right.
Someone in LE hired a professional to handle the situation with SA.
They didn't actually have her body or control of what happened. They would surely prefer to stay as far removed as possible - with just enough plantable evidence left to hide any proof of what actually happened, leaving them play in coming up with an alternative scenario that could fit, so they could put SA away for life. It would only take 2 or 3 people in the know that never in a million years would squeal.
It's the only completely logical conclusion I can come to.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5l0eox/what_did_le_know_and_when_did_they_know_it/
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5691be1b25981daa98f417c8/t/569850c64bf118ad2a6276d8/1452822727114/state+farm+letter+2.pdf
There's no way on God's green Earth that - if it wasn't SA (which I'm on the extreme side of confidence it was NOT) - they'd knowingly wrongfully convict him again after their butts were so hugely on the line last time. There's no way they'd risk framing him if they thought the real story could ever possibly come out in their lifetimes. And this is one of the many reasons it HAD to be someone in LE behind TH's untimely demise. SA initially said it was TK setting him up. Not saying that TK didn't have help, but I do think SA's probably right.
Someone in LE hired a professional to handle the situation with SA.
They didn't actually have her body or control of what happened. They would surely prefer to stay as far removed as possible - with just enough plantable evidence left to hide any proof of what actually happened, leaving them play in coming up with an alternative scenario that could fit, so they could put SA away for life. It would only take 2 or 3 people in the know that never in a million years would squeal.
It's the only completely logical conclusion I can come to.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5l0eox/what_did_le_know_and_when_did_they_know_it/
Target of opportunity, I reckon. MTSO couldn't stop the depositions, so things got red-hot and Ken Petersen brought in a pro, who was staking out Steven Avery.
(Remember the reports of the weird black van that was randomly parked nearby for a few days at the time? That would be there for hours at a time, then leave?)
Police report about a black van: Ms. STAHL indicated there had been a vehicle parked where her paper carrier delivers the newspaper for several days. She stated, however, that the vehicle was gone at night. She stated the vehicle was there for three consecutive days. She described the vehicle as being a black, four door van. She stated she saw this vehicle in the daytime, but it was always gone in the evening. Ms. STAHL did have the opportunity to view a photograph of a RAV4 similar to that which was owned and operated by TERESA HALBACH. Ms. STAHL indicated that it was possibly the vehicle, however, the photograph which was displayed to her had stripes on the side of the unit and Ms. HALBACH's did not.
Page 128 CASO
http://www..org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf
And it worked, civil suit kaput.
IMO the MTSO and prosecutor's office was fixated in keeping SA in prison until he was released. Then they went into damage control mode until they realized that there was a significant chance that they couldn't contain the damage. I only believe that it was at this point that they seriously considered a second frame up. It was a desperate and risky move made by a group that had so much to lose, that they deemed it worth the risk IMO. Probably started with someone letting something slip in the deposition that SA's lawyers didn't fully pick up, but was feared that would be the card to bring the whole house down one they realised what it was. I wouldn't be surprised if Zellner has figured it out.
I think the pro did a thorough job, and planted some of the evidence, but the LE (James Lenk and Andy Colborn) planting is when things started getting bungled.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5bi42f/after_a_month_on_reddit_my_theory/?_branch_match_id=522346269243188431
IMO, Ken Petersen is too smart to risk killing an innocent person himself and too dumb to pull it all off without getting caught.
Someone well-versed in murder did this, and handed over just enough evidence for LE (KP) to orchestrate the framing.
"Contract killing provides the hiring party with the advantage of not having to commit the actual killing, making it more difficult for law enforcement to connect said party with the murder. The likelihood the authorities will establish that party's guilt for the committed crime, especially due to lack of forensic evidence linked to the contracting party, makes the case more difficult to attribute to the hiring party."
"A study by the Australian Institute of Criminology of 162 attempted or actual contract murders in Australia between 1989 and 2002 indicated that the most common reason for murder-for-hire was insurance policies payouts. The study also found that the average payment for a "hit" was $15,000, with variation from $5,000 up to $30,000, and that the most commonly used weapons were firearms."
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5t6w7d/we_cant_rule_out_le_as_the_killers_just_because/
Facts:
With what we know about the Gregory Allen thing, I don't trust them for a fkn second. It baffles me how others would.
Fool me once...
[–]Temptedious and others
You can't frame somebody for a crime unless you know the crime was committed. And how do they know the crime was committed on the 3rd, or 4th, or 5th unless they did it, or unless they assisted in covering it up?
We're going to be looking at work schedules for Lieutenant Lenk, Sergeant Colborn, and I'm not sure if Detective Remiker has now been thrown in the mix or not. Obstruction of justice, that's felony behavior. Misconduct in office for a police officer, tampering with evidence, the list goes on and on.
Buting’s request for their alibis was not just so he could rule out law enforcement as suspects; it was also to establish when the officers had an opportunity to plant evidence prior to the property being taken over by law enforcement on Nov 5. Asking for their whereabouts from Oct 31 - Nov 4, 2005 was not only about an alleged intent to murder; it was also about an alleged intent to frame, which (despite what Fallon says) does not require the cops to have killed Teresa.
Kocourek suppressed exculpatory evidence multiple times in 1985, 1995 & 2003. Kocourek and Vogel knowingly let a rapist walk the streets, enabling him to violently assault women whenever he desired. Then in 1995 Colborn presented Kocourek with a chance to correct the injustice inflicted upon Avery in 1985.
In his 8-year-late report Colborn misrepresented what happened that day in 1995. Colborn left out the fact that Avery and Allen had been identified by name, as well as the fact that he informed Kocourek of the call after it came in and was told to forget about it.
Shortly after Avery was exonerated, Jones, Rohrer and Kusche all became aware of the 1995 call, even though they had nothing to do with it. In an attempt to protect themselves, Jones sent a memo to Rohrer (in 2003) in which he summarized the events surrounding the 1995 call, as well as Lenk, Colborn and Kocourek's involvement.
Avery filed his lawsuit in 2004 without knowledge of the 1995 call. It was roughly a year after the lawsuit was filed (and the 2005 depositions began) that Avery and his attorneys became aware of the 1995 call, which dramatically bolstered the claims already detailed in the lawsuit - intentional misconduct.
The 1995 call / 2003 memo being exposed was good news for Avery and horrible news for Colborn, Lenk, Kocourek and the Attorney General.
By this point (October 2005), Avery's attorneys were aware of the 1995 call because they somehow acquired the 2003 memo.
Kusche admitted to Avery’s counsel that he learned the information contained in the memo from Andrew Colborn himself, meaning (according to Kusche) at some point between 1995-2003 Andrew Colborn told Kusche that Kocourek ordered him to suppress exculpatory information.
http://imgur.com/a/wcvGC
Avery's counsel's use of the 2003 memo forced Kusche to confirm Kocourek's culpability in knowingly allowing an innocent Avery to sit in jail for years on end, wrongfully convicted of the violent sexual crime committed by Gregory Allen.
Kusche's deposition was on October 26, 2005. Next up to be deposed was Kocourek on November 10, 2005. Vogel was set to be deposed on November 15, 2005.
However, as we know, they got ... very lucky. Teresa disappeared on October 31, 2005. Avery was arrested on November 9, 2005. Teresa was pronounced as dead on November 10, 2005. Avery was then charged with Teresa’s murder on November 15, 2005.
As a result of Teresa's disappearance, Kocourek and Vogel (those corrupt mother fuckers) never had to sit for their depositions.
The unraveling really began to accelerate on October 26, 2005, when Kusche was forced to implicate his former co-workers in taking part in the suppression of exculpatory evidence. A multi-layered government cover-up was going to be exposed, and there was the potential that the corruption exposed by Avery would lead all the way to the Attorney General’s Office.
Kusche, Kocourek's right hand man, admitted in his own deposition that Lenk and Colborn intentionally withheld exculpatory information that may have lead to Avery's release 8 years earlier than his eventual exoneration in 2003.
Officers Colborn and Lenk had reason to believe they were both going to be added as named defendants in Avery's lawsuit, and thus they had a motive to create an opportunity (or take advantage of an opportunity) to frame Avery for murder.
Kocourek and Vogel also had a motive to create an opportunity to provide officers from their former department with enough cause to arrest Avery in the hopes of stopping their upcoming depositions, as well as any possibility of additional lawsuits.
AG Peg Lautenschlager also had a motive that might have lead her to taking advantage of Teresa's murder by ordering her agents to assist in convicting Avery by any means necessary, even if they had to protect the guilty party from prosecution.
By the looks of it, Colborn helped plant the RAV. If he really did find the RAV off the Avery property like Zellner alleges, then we can safely assume that history has repeated itself. In 1985 Kocourek and Vogel knew that Avery was innocent and that someone else was guilty. Come 2005 it was Colborn (and likely many others) who had reason to know Avery was innocent and someone else was guilty.
Peterson, for all he said was detached and uninvolved, was informed of and perhaps behind every decision made in this case.
Kocourek was Sheriff in 1985 when Avery was wrongfully convicted.
Petersen was Sheriff in 2005 when Teresa disappeared.
Petersen can in no way be implicated like Kocourek was in 1985 because Petersen was out of town during the week of the murder; and, when he got back on November 5, CASO was in control, so he can't be held responsible for any questionable decision making.
Seems like Petersen learned from Kocourek's mistakes. It's Petersen's history with Kokourek and the department that makes me suspect he was more involved than he admits.
It was DNA that freed Steve Avery from prison the first time, and they made sure DNA put him back in.
Get rid of the wrongs and hold to account those responsible for the corruption.
The Court: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department was being sued by Mr. Avery for a claim that is, near as I understand it, was covered by insurance. I don't know what the limits on the policy might have been.
First, in Making a Murderer, Avery's counsel asserts the insurers declared their policies would not cover any damages, compensatory or punitive. Kocourek and Vogel were being sued in their official capacity (compensatory damages) and their individual capacity (punitive damages). The punitive damages were the real issue. I could maybe see someone arguing their insurers would cover the compensatory damages, but the punitive damages relate to the fact that Kocourek and Vogel intentionally targeted Avery and ignored Allen. Punitive damages are only requested when the misconduct is intentional and egregious. Insurers can always find a way out of covering someone's intentional misconduct. They were still at risk, in my mind, when it came to the punitive damages.
The memo was written by Jones and sent to Rohrer. I like your theory that Jones is the one who gave it to Avery's counsel. The memo could be connected to Jones, Rohrer, Kusche, Lenk, Colborn and Kocourek. Jones was the only one not deposed.
The five that had the most to lose: TK, KP, GK, JL, AC. Yup. And don't forget DV!
Kratz failing to identify a motive for Avery to have killed Teresa would not have precluded him from prosecuting Avery. Strang was only arguing that it was unjust to apply Denny to this case, as the Denny ruling made it so Avery was forced to shoulder a burden the State was not - Avery was required to demonstrate motive before he could name an alternative suspect, but the State would not be compelled by law to demonstrate what Avery's motive was. It wasn't a procedural error, but it was unfair, like so many other aspects of the pre-trial / jury trial.
I am convinced more was going to be uncovered in the civil suit. Each new deposition was resulting in more and more favourable intel for Steven. You could see the panic on the faces of those who were the most recent to be disposed. I believe new information would have come out. Once that information was checked and cross referenced with what others had said recently and previously, I believe more lies would have been uncovered. I also think the DOJ investigation, which found "no misconduct," would have been exposed as a whitewash. The civil suit, whilst having a potential financial penalty for some, was in my opinion far more about a loss of reputation, jobs, standing in the community, fracturing egos, and many other human emotions that come in to play for others. That's why I believe different people were involved for potentially different reasons, some more selfish, whilst others for the good of the greater group/department.
[–]3302ZanderRd and 7-pairs-of-panties
I feel like Kusche's untimely death right before Avery’s trial and right after finding out the blood vial was going to be allowed in trial is very suspect! Did he have a heart attack because he was so scared at what would be found? Did DV and TK have an ax to grind with him for what he revealed in the depos, and they couldn’t let him get near the court room again??
I have always said they wouldn’t have planted a girl's car that they knew was alive. They would have HAD to have known she was dead, and I think they did. Sadly, for them to have known she was dead you know what that means....it would mean that they knew Teresa was dead and how she died. It also would mean that THEY, not the killer, was the one to burn her body. This was done to cover and destroy any evidence that it was anyone other than Avery.
Allen was set to take the fall, and Avery will be paraded as a hero with a bill in his name. PegL gifted LE with no wrongdoings. We’ll give Avery enough he won’t sue us because he was already going to prison for the 1984 Sandy Morris case. And we will all live happily ever after! But Avery is 18 years stubborner, justly unhappy and wanted those who have wronged him to face justice. Did the plan backfire when Avery sued the hell out of ‘em? Hell yeah, but Allen was already planted. They just may have wagged the dog too hard. Now they just had to wag the dog the other way… and convict Avery of murder so nobody would ever talk about the civil suit ever again. And for that, they planted Brendan.
According to Michael Griesbach's book "Indefensible," when analyst Sherry Culhane called MG and Mark Rohrer about her DNA result, Avery's files were allegedly sitting in a corner of MR's office, ready to be consulted as they talked on the phone. Inside, they also find Allen’s misplaced police report and criminal complaint.
Why would DV keep the misplaced report?
Why is MG so convinced of Avery’s exoneration in 2003 and Avery’s conviction in 2005?
Why would you keep Allen’s file?
On September 12th 2003, a day after Avery’s release from prison, Sergeant's AC wrote a report about an alleged 1995 phone call with an unidentified Brown County Detective. The report was stored in a safe.
Why would you keep AC’s report?
A week after Avery’s release from prison, on September 18th 2003, DKJ (now Calumet County ADA) wrote to MR (then Manitowoc DA) about a conversation he had with GK about the alleged 1995 phone call. The very same day MR asked the DOJ to investigate.
Why would keep DKJ’s memo?
What are the circumstances surrounding Avery’s legal team finding said memo during the civil suit? Who, When, How, Why?
On 11/3/05, the day TH was reported missing, Gregory Allen was being transferred from Waupun Correctional Institution to Stanley Correctional Institution, the prison from which Steven Avery was released on 9/11/03. Blood tests are done when a prisoner is processed to a new facility, usually to track diseases. If Allen’s DNA exonerated Avery in 2003, could Allen’s DNA convict Avery in 2005?
Why would they keep these reports that incriminate LE??
I also asked why would Allen confess to a rape that someone else was convicted for? Why would you open that can of worms? You are obviously going to get more jail time? Why confess to a crime that wasn’t even on LE's radar at the time (because they already convicted Avery for it - case closed in their minds) ? Makes no sense.
But if you entertain the idea that Allen also was framed, it flows smoothly. It makes sense.
It also means GK was actually trying to tell the truth!! Could this be the reason for his untimely death? Makes you wonder! Was he going to tell investigators and the DOJ the whole bloody scheme?
CASO FILE, PAGE 390, EXCERPTIMO the MTSO and prosecutor's office was fixated in keeping SA in prison until he was released. Then they went into damage control mode until they realized that there was a significant chance that they couldn't contain the damage. I only believe that it was at this point that they seriously considered a second frame up. It was a desperate and risky move made by a group that had so much to lose, that they deemed it worth the risk IMO. Probably started with someone letting something slip in the deposition that SA's lawyers didn't fully pick up, but was feared that would be the card to bring the whole house down one they realised what it was. I wouldn't be surprised if Zellner has figured it out.
"A whole body tells way too much of a forensic story. It could implicate the killer and prove Avery didn't do it. To much evidence. The lack of an identifiable body was the point. The murder was planned almost flawless. The planting was crap because they weren't done by the same parties, and the planting could not be planned. The murder could."And this is a big part of why it looks so much (to me) like a professional murderer killed her.
I think the pro did a thorough job, and planted some of the evidence, but the LE (James Lenk and Andy Colborn) planting is when things started getting bungled.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5bi42f/after_a_month_on_reddit_my_theory/?_branch_match_id=522346269243188431
IMO, Ken Petersen is too smart to risk killing an innocent person himself and too dumb to pull it all off without getting caught.
Someone well-versed in murder did this, and handed over just enough evidence for LE (KP) to orchestrate the framing.
Pre-trial Motion Hearing, Strang Questions Petersen
STRANG: That decision to transfer control was made by you?
PETERSEN: Indirectly, yes.
DS: Okay. Your department had been involved in early steps in the investigation of Ms Halbach’s disappearance?
KP: Correct.He would've hired a professional then left town as his alibi. That'd be the most efficient, fool-proof way of handling the situation - with Ken Petersen organizing it - with the blessing of Tom Kocourek and on the unknowing behalf of the MTSO, et al.
DS: Maybe you would explain, then, for me, what you mean when you say, indirectly, the decision that Saturday morning was made by you?
KP: I had been out of town the previous week. I was out in Seattle, Washington. And I arrived home probably 10:30, quarter to 11, Saturday morning, and that decision to transfer had already been made, I assume, by the inspector. I never inquired. I agreed with the way it was going, so I didn't interfere.
"Contract killing provides the hiring party with the advantage of not having to commit the actual killing, making it more difficult for law enforcement to connect said party with the murder. The likelihood the authorities will establish that party's guilt for the committed crime, especially due to lack of forensic evidence linked to the contracting party, makes the case more difficult to attribute to the hiring party."
"A study by the Australian Institute of Criminology of 162 attempted or actual contract murders in Australia between 1989 and 2002 indicated that the most common reason for murder-for-hire was insurance policies payouts. The study also found that the average payment for a "hit" was $15,000, with variation from $5,000 up to $30,000, and that the most commonly used weapons were firearms."
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5t6w7d/we_cant_rule_out_le_as_the_killers_just_because/
Facts:
- Similar MO by LE
- Similar accusations (brutal rape)
- Same department investigating
- Some of the same players involved
- Same ridiculously tight timeline
- Lack of motive by SA....some could surmise an anti-motive as he'd just regained his life and was about to come into large sums of money, plus he wanted to bring his persecutors to justice
- Same court
- Plenty of possible witnesses
- Key was planted (photographic evidence proving James Lenk and Andy Colborn perjured themselves on stand about how they supposedly found it)
- Kratz practically giddy in court - knowing the EDTA testing performed by the FBI guy would come back in the State's favour
- Same guy being persecuted
With what we know about the Gregory Allen thing, I don't trust them for a fkn second. It baffles me how others would.
Fool me once...
[–]Temptedious and others
You can't frame somebody for a crime unless you know the crime was committed. And how do they know the crime was committed on the 3rd, or 4th, or 5th unless they did it, or unless they assisted in covering it up?
We're going to be looking at work schedules for Lieutenant Lenk, Sergeant Colborn, and I'm not sure if Detective Remiker has now been thrown in the mix or not. Obstruction of justice, that's felony behavior. Misconduct in office for a police officer, tampering with evidence, the list goes on and on.
Buting’s request for their alibis was not just so he could rule out law enforcement as suspects; it was also to establish when the officers had an opportunity to plant evidence prior to the property being taken over by law enforcement on Nov 5. Asking for their whereabouts from Oct 31 - Nov 4, 2005 was not only about an alleged intent to murder; it was also about an alleged intent to frame, which (despite what Fallon says) does not require the cops to have killed Teresa.
Kocourek suppressed exculpatory evidence multiple times in 1985, 1995 & 2003. Kocourek and Vogel knowingly let a rapist walk the streets, enabling him to violently assault women whenever he desired. Then in 1995 Colborn presented Kocourek with a chance to correct the injustice inflicted upon Avery in 1985.
In his 8-year-late report Colborn misrepresented what happened that day in 1995. Colborn left out the fact that Avery and Allen had been identified by name, as well as the fact that he informed Kocourek of the call after it came in and was told to forget about it.
Shortly after Avery was exonerated, Jones, Rohrer and Kusche all became aware of the 1995 call, even though they had nothing to do with it. In an attempt to protect themselves, Jones sent a memo to Rohrer (in 2003) in which he summarized the events surrounding the 1995 call, as well as Lenk, Colborn and Kocourek's involvement.
Avery filed his lawsuit in 2004 without knowledge of the 1995 call. It was roughly a year after the lawsuit was filed (and the 2005 depositions began) that Avery and his attorneys became aware of the 1995 call, which dramatically bolstered the claims already detailed in the lawsuit - intentional misconduct.
The 1995 call / 2003 memo being exposed was good news for Avery and horrible news for Colborn, Lenk, Kocourek and the Attorney General.
By this point (October 2005), Avery's attorneys were aware of the 1995 call because they somehow acquired the 2003 memo.
Kusche admitted to Avery’s counsel that he learned the information contained in the memo from Andrew Colborn himself, meaning (according to Kusche) at some point between 1995-2003 Andrew Colborn told Kusche that Kocourek ordered him to suppress exculpatory information.
http://imgur.com/a/wcvGC
Avery's counsel's use of the 2003 memo forced Kusche to confirm Kocourek's culpability in knowingly allowing an innocent Avery to sit in jail for years on end, wrongfully convicted of the violent sexual crime committed by Gregory Allen.
Kusche's deposition was on October 26, 2005. Next up to be deposed was Kocourek on November 10, 2005. Vogel was set to be deposed on November 15, 2005.
However, as we know, they got ... very lucky. Teresa disappeared on October 31, 2005. Avery was arrested on November 9, 2005. Teresa was pronounced as dead on November 10, 2005. Avery was then charged with Teresa’s murder on November 15, 2005.
As a result of Teresa's disappearance, Kocourek and Vogel (those corrupt mother fuckers) never had to sit for their depositions.
The unraveling really began to accelerate on October 26, 2005, when Kusche was forced to implicate his former co-workers in taking part in the suppression of exculpatory evidence. A multi-layered government cover-up was going to be exposed, and there was the potential that the corruption exposed by Avery would lead all the way to the Attorney General’s Office.
Kusche, Kocourek's right hand man, admitted in his own deposition that Lenk and Colborn intentionally withheld exculpatory information that may have lead to Avery's release 8 years earlier than his eventual exoneration in 2003.
Officers Colborn and Lenk had reason to believe they were both going to be added as named defendants in Avery's lawsuit, and thus they had a motive to create an opportunity (or take advantage of an opportunity) to frame Avery for murder.
Kocourek and Vogel also had a motive to create an opportunity to provide officers from their former department with enough cause to arrest Avery in the hopes of stopping their upcoming depositions, as well as any possibility of additional lawsuits.
AG Peg Lautenschlager also had a motive that might have lead her to taking advantage of Teresa's murder by ordering her agents to assist in convicting Avery by any means necessary, even if they had to protect the guilty party from prosecution.
By the looks of it, Colborn helped plant the RAV. If he really did find the RAV off the Avery property like Zellner alleges, then we can safely assume that history has repeated itself. In 1985 Kocourek and Vogel knew that Avery was innocent and that someone else was guilty. Come 2005 it was Colborn (and likely many others) who had reason to know Avery was innocent and someone else was guilty.
Peterson, for all he said was detached and uninvolved, was informed of and perhaps behind every decision made in this case.
Kocourek was Sheriff in 1985 when Avery was wrongfully convicted.
Petersen was Sheriff in 2005 when Teresa disappeared.
Petersen can in no way be implicated like Kocourek was in 1985 because Petersen was out of town during the week of the murder; and, when he got back on November 5, CASO was in control, so he can't be held responsible for any questionable decision making.
Seems like Petersen learned from Kocourek's mistakes. It's Petersen's history with Kokourek and the department that makes me suspect he was more involved than he admits.
It was DNA that freed Steve Avery from prison the first time, and they made sure DNA put him back in.
Get rid of the wrongs and hold to account those responsible for the corruption.
The Court: Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department was being sued by Mr. Avery for a claim that is, near as I understand it, was covered by insurance. I don't know what the limits on the policy might have been.
First, in Making a Murderer, Avery's counsel asserts the insurers declared their policies would not cover any damages, compensatory or punitive. Kocourek and Vogel were being sued in their official capacity (compensatory damages) and their individual capacity (punitive damages). The punitive damages were the real issue. I could maybe see someone arguing their insurers would cover the compensatory damages, but the punitive damages relate to the fact that Kocourek and Vogel intentionally targeted Avery and ignored Allen. Punitive damages are only requested when the misconduct is intentional and egregious. Insurers can always find a way out of covering someone's intentional misconduct. They were still at risk, in my mind, when it came to the punitive damages.
The memo was written by Jones and sent to Rohrer. I like your theory that Jones is the one who gave it to Avery's counsel. The memo could be connected to Jones, Rohrer, Kusche, Lenk, Colborn and Kocourek. Jones was the only one not deposed.
The five that had the most to lose: TK, KP, GK, JL, AC. Yup. And don't forget DV!
Kratz failing to identify a motive for Avery to have killed Teresa would not have precluded him from prosecuting Avery. Strang was only arguing that it was unjust to apply Denny to this case, as the Denny ruling made it so Avery was forced to shoulder a burden the State was not - Avery was required to demonstrate motive before he could name an alternative suspect, but the State would not be compelled by law to demonstrate what Avery's motive was. It wasn't a procedural error, but it was unfair, like so many other aspects of the pre-trial / jury trial.
I am convinced more was going to be uncovered in the civil suit. Each new deposition was resulting in more and more favourable intel for Steven. You could see the panic on the faces of those who were the most recent to be disposed. I believe new information would have come out. Once that information was checked and cross referenced with what others had said recently and previously, I believe more lies would have been uncovered. I also think the DOJ investigation, which found "no misconduct," would have been exposed as a whitewash. The civil suit, whilst having a potential financial penalty for some, was in my opinion far more about a loss of reputation, jobs, standing in the community, fracturing egos, and many other human emotions that come in to play for others. That's why I believe different people were involved for potentially different reasons, some more selfish, whilst others for the good of the greater group/department.
[–]3302ZanderRd and 7-pairs-of-panties
I feel like Kusche's untimely death right before Avery’s trial and right after finding out the blood vial was going to be allowed in trial is very suspect! Did he have a heart attack because he was so scared at what would be found? Did DV and TK have an ax to grind with him for what he revealed in the depos, and they couldn’t let him get near the court room again??
I have always said they wouldn’t have planted a girl's car that they knew was alive. They would have HAD to have known she was dead, and I think they did. Sadly, for them to have known she was dead you know what that means....it would mean that they knew Teresa was dead and how she died. It also would mean that THEY, not the killer, was the one to burn her body. This was done to cover and destroy any evidence that it was anyone other than Avery.
Allen was set to take the fall, and Avery will be paraded as a hero with a bill in his name. PegL gifted LE with no wrongdoings. We’ll give Avery enough he won’t sue us because he was already going to prison for the 1984 Sandy Morris case. And we will all live happily ever after! But Avery is 18 years stubborner, justly unhappy and wanted those who have wronged him to face justice. Did the plan backfire when Avery sued the hell out of ‘em? Hell yeah, but Allen was already planted. They just may have wagged the dog too hard. Now they just had to wag the dog the other way… and convict Avery of murder so nobody would ever talk about the civil suit ever again. And for that, they planted Brendan.
According to Michael Griesbach's book "Indefensible," when analyst Sherry Culhane called MG and Mark Rohrer about her DNA result, Avery's files were allegedly sitting in a corner of MR's office, ready to be consulted as they talked on the phone. Inside, they also find Allen’s misplaced police report and criminal complaint.
Why would DV keep the misplaced report?
Why is MG so convinced of Avery’s exoneration in 2003 and Avery’s conviction in 2005?
Why would you keep Allen’s file?
On September 12th 2003, a day after Avery’s release from prison, Sergeant's AC wrote a report about an alleged 1995 phone call with an unidentified Brown County Detective. The report was stored in a safe.
Why would you keep AC’s report?
A week after Avery’s release from prison, on September 18th 2003, DKJ (now Calumet County ADA) wrote to MR (then Manitowoc DA) about a conversation he had with GK about the alleged 1995 phone call. The very same day MR asked the DOJ to investigate.
Why would keep DKJ’s memo?
What are the circumstances surrounding Avery’s legal team finding said memo during the civil suit? Who, When, How, Why?
On 11/3/05, the day TH was reported missing, Gregory Allen was being transferred from Waupun Correctional Institution to Stanley Correctional Institution, the prison from which Steven Avery was released on 9/11/03. Blood tests are done when a prisoner is processed to a new facility, usually to track diseases. If Allen’s DNA exonerated Avery in 2003, could Allen’s DNA convict Avery in 2005?
Why would they keep these reports that incriminate LE??
I also asked why would Allen confess to a rape that someone else was convicted for? Why would you open that can of worms? You are obviously going to get more jail time? Why confess to a crime that wasn’t even on LE's radar at the time (because they already convicted Avery for it - case closed in their minds) ? Makes no sense.
But if you entertain the idea that Allen also was framed, it flows smoothly. It makes sense.
It also means GK was actually trying to tell the truth!! Could this be the reason for his untimely death? Makes you wonder! Was he going to tell investigators and the DOJ the whole bloody scheme?
TYPE OF ACTIVITY: Telephone Conversation with Gordon A. Schneider
DATE OF ACTIVITY: 12/27/05
REPORTING OFFICER: Inv. John Dedering
DOCUMENTS GENERATED: None
In the course of reviewing the incident, I (DEDERING) did realize that I had done a telephonic conversation with the following individual on 12/27/05 and had not dictated it:
GORDON A. SCHNEIDER
SCHNEIDER went on to state that a subject named EUGENE SCHMITZ (ph) told SCHNEIDER about this. According to SCHNEIDER, EUGENE gets his information from ALLAN AVERY.
SCHNEIDER indicated that ALLAN has a brother [Arland Avery] who was a MANITOWOC COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT detective. SCHNEIDER stated this brother was demoted during former Sheriff THOMAS KOCOUREK's administration and subsequently ALLAN AVERY's brother was given a job as a Huber officer. SCHNEIDER stated ALLAN AVERY's brother worked this job at least until 1992.
Kocourek Spent His First 10 Years in LE at Manitowoc PD, Working for Delores Avery’s Cousin, Longtime Police Chief Elmer Scherer
By MsMinxster
May 26, 2016
Delores Avery’s 1st cousin, Elmer Scherer (additional source), was a 45-year veteran of the city of Manitowoc Police Department and Chief of Police from 1962 until he retired in 1978.
Here's a brief run down of Tom Kocourek's years at Manitowoc PD (not to be confused with Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office, MTSO). [For more info (and a little fun), click on links for newspaper clippings.]
Here's a brief run down of Tom Kocourek's years at Manitowoc PD (not to be confused with Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office, MTSO). [For more info (and a little fun), click on links for newspaper clippings.]
- 1970 Kocourek joined Manitowoc PD in 1969 and became an officer in 1970. But was also happy to sell your home.
- 1970 At the same time Arland Avery (Allan Avery's brother) was an Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office (MTSO) volunteer deputy and worked at an electronic service center.
- 1972 While still working as and electronic technician, volunteer deputy Arland Avery supported Sheriff George Wanish’s second term as sheriff.
- 1973 Arland Avery was making a splash on the dive team rescuing a motorist whose car went off a bridge and into the icy river. Sheriff Wanish also recognized Arland Avery's efforts in a missing person search and rescue.
- 1973 Meanwhile, Kocourek was promoted to detective and his brother, Richard, did a brief stint at the police department working for Chief Scherer but decided to pursue other opportunities.
- 1974 Arland Avery supported Sherrif Wanish’s election to a third term.
Interesting side note—Joseph Sukowaty was also an American Party candidate that year:
“A third candidate for the sheriff's office is Joseph Sukowaty, 39, former police chief of the Village of St. Nazianz who is running under the American Party banner. Sukowaty received enough write-in votes at the September primary to qualify for a spot on the Nov. 5 election ballot..” Many of you might remember that Joseph Sukowaty’s niece was murdered a few years later.
- 1975 Kocourek continued plugging along at Manitowoc PD and was still happy to sell your home.
- 1976 Sheriff Wanish runs for a fourth term and is reelected (side note, Vogel is elected to his first term as DA).
- 1976 Still working for Chief Scherer, Kocourek would still sell your home but without the big grin.
- 1977 Kocourek was appointed juvenile officer but continued to build his real estate business.
- 1978 Manitowoc Police Chief Elmer Scherer retires.
- 1978 Wanish loses Sheriff’s primary to Kocourek in a bitter five man race and goes on to win the election.
- 1979 Kocourek begins two decades long reign
of erroras Sheriff of Manitowoc County. - 1984 (Aug) Steven Avery’s uncle, Police Chief Scherer, passes away.
- 1984 (Sep) Steven Avery is accused of indecent exposure by his cousin, Sandra Morris.
- 1984 (Oct) MTSO Deputy Morris (Sandra’s husband) added as a defendant to a civil suit against his fellow deputy, Larry Conrad, after Conrad’s deposition in the matter earlier that month. [The plaintiff accuses the officers excessive and unreasonable force in transporting him to the Manitowoc County Jail, by pushing and shoving him down a flight of stairs in the county courthouse while he was handcuffed, thus injuring him and requiring his hospitalization, all in violation of his due process rights under the United States Constitution (http://www.leagle.com/decision/19852144601FSupp1543_11890/LAMMERS%20v.%20CONRAD).
- 1985 Steven is convicted of attempted murder.
- His possible resentment/dislike of his former boss (and Avery's uncle), Chief Scherer. They both testified in murder trial in several years prior and Kocourek gave somewhat conflicting testimony to that of his boss. The murder trial lasted only two days, and partly due to Kocourek’s testimony, the jury returned a guilty verdict in two hours. The teenage boy was sentenced to life in prison, and a few years later, committed suicide.
- Arland Avery’s staunch support of former sheriff, George Wanish.
Comments from Reddit:
Delores Avery's cousin was Chief of the Manitowoc Police Department and Kocourek's boss before he became Sheriff of Manitowoc County.
Allen Avery's brother, Arland Avery, was a volunteer deputy for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office (MTSO).
Arland was totally railroaded once Kocourek became Sheriff of Manitowoc County.
It appears Arland Avery was on a pretty good path to at least come out in a respected position within the sheriff's office until Kocourek took control.
This is what I've been waiting for. The why.
We know why in 2005.
The real question has always been why in 1985? Why did Kocourek and the rest of that vindictive shower of pricks in MTSO want to fit Steven Avery up in the first place?
The newspaper clippings/timing really cracked me up: the contrast of Arland diving into an icy river while Kocourek's asking to sell your home is just too funny.
Why single out Steven? Earl was too young, Chuck was married and starting a family, but Steven Avery was a young adult and an easier target.
I'm curious if Delores' cousin, MPD Chief Scherer, helped Allen's brother, Arland Avery, get a position as a volunteer deputy at MTSO.
I couldn't find anything going that far back but it seems, before Kocourek, the Manitowoc Police Department (MPD) and the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office (MTSO) had a friendly relationship.
1985 Report about the Marinette County case:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Report-on-Avery-as-Suspect-in-Abduction-1985.pdf
First off, it was Judy Dvorak who took the report, and it was taken on 7/30/85, the day after SA was arrested for the PB attack of 7/29/85.
Second, the Mrs. Amanda Marcelle (nee Mott) listed as the "witness of SA in Marinette fishing on Memorial Day weekend" is actually a sister of Mrs. Loretta Avery... Allan's Avery's mother and SA's grandmother. So the woman, Mrs Ramona Marcelle, who provided the information to Dvorak, is a cousin-in-law of Allan Avery?
Without disclosing too much personal info about the Motts, one of Loretta's brothers was Sandra Morris's paternal grandfather (and one of her brothers was Kim Ducat's maternal grandfather). So, basically, Deverbiage was interviewing a "witness" who was the great aunt of both SA and SM (hardcore investigator, that Dverbiage).
It makes total sense that Kocourcek had a chip on his shoulder and that SA paid dearly.
By '85 there was plenty of dislike/distrust of Kocourek by the Manitowoc PD Chief. I have an interesting article from '86 (maybe '87) that I almost added to this timeline but I had hit my Kocourek limit at that point. I'll do a separate thread for it...and you'll hate Kocourek even more. Stay tuned!
So, Kocourek never did work for the county, only Manitowoc PD, before he ran for sheriff? If so, then why did Kocourek have support as an outsider? Did he bring in employees who backed him? Did he bring people over from Manitiwoc PD? Or did he hire Vogel himself?
I think Vogel was recruited by Zigelbauer. They graduated together from Notre Dame.
Was Kocourek's conduct a result
of his dislike for the Avery family or did it had more to do with a
vendetta against the Manitowoc PD or a different individual.
Why the dilemma? Because Minx post does an exceptional job dissecting and explaining the possibility that an Avery/Kocourek conflict could have led to the focus on Steven. It does not, however, explain the Greg Allen insanity.
The Allen aspect of the 1985 case doesn't fit with the theory of Kocourek's dislike for the Avery family. Gregory Allen was getting into trouble in 1982, long before the Morris incident.
What are we missing here?
Why the dilemma? Because Minx post does an exceptional job dissecting and explaining the possibility that an Avery/Kocourek conflict could have led to the focus on Steven. It does not, however, explain the Greg Allen insanity.
The Allen aspect of the 1985 case doesn't fit with the theory of Kocourek's dislike for the Avery family. Gregory Allen was getting into trouble in 1982, long before the Morris incident.
What are we missing here?
Gregory Allen, was he some sort of informant who was able to get away with a lot? Vogel always reduced the charges and GA went back to being GA.
I think, as MSminx suggested, there may have been some tension between the MPD (police department) and sheriff's department after Kocourek became sheriff, so he couldn't allow someone from the MPD to solve it (leading them to GA) and then risk them running against him. And since the Beerntsens were supporters of his also, he may have lost their support. GA was the city's problem at that time, so Kocourek may have not cared so much?
It makes sense that Kocourek convinced Penny Beerntsen it was Steven Avery, and as long as PB was convinced as the eyewitness, there was nothing to dispute it, and he just wanted to be the hero who solved it and not look foolish by being wrong. It does (at least to me) explain why he blocked any attempts by the MPD to point to GA, and why he was so overly involved in the case.
So I think it could have been multiple "issues" that stemmed from Kocourek's former time at the MPD: grudges, politics, ego, etc. He wanted to control the case because he could, and it made him look good (not a bad thing come re-election time). To some people reputation and image is everything.
There is literally no telling what the history may have been: local politics, power, egos, influence, etc. Small towns/counties are famous for this kind of thing.
My theory was they covered GA for so long because they didn't want to have a serial rapist in the town. That type of thing leads to negative PR (too late for that now) and bad crime stats. They might have played down his attacks to keep Manitowoc a 'nice place'.
However, because of who PB was when she was raped, they couldn't turn a blind eye. Plus, a feud/vendetta against Avery gave them two birds, one stone target.
That makes the most sense of anything I've heard so far. When PB was attacked it would have been a shit storm if it was revealed that GA did it. I myself would have sued them when I found out that they actually knew this guy was a danger but for whatever reasons they just kept letting him go about his business and jeopardizing the safety of others.
Their negligence got her seriously hurt and scarred for life. She was high enough profile that LE would have looked really REALLY bad, if not criminally negligent. SA does somewhat resemble Allen and there was no love lost between SA and the sheriff already. This is why they pushed Avery being the suspect so hard to PB. They were the first ones to plant his name in her mind, and it is obvious to anyone that Kusche traced SA's mugshot.
I am under the impression that Gregory Allen has some kind of personal tie possibly.
Maybe he served in the same unit as someone else in MTSO, in the army.
Or maybe he was an informant. In fact, I think the informant angle is the most likely one. But I don't think it eliminates other angles either. If anything, it may make them more likely. They certainly aren't mutually exclusive.
For instance, if there is a past history between Allen and some MTSO brass, whether they served in the military together, whether it's a family connection... whatever... later on, if he is caught, they would have a dialogue with him open already. And him offering up information as an informant would be the most logical step in his position. And the way that area functions, it is on par with how the status quo is kept.
It was interesting to learn that the Avery family themselves were basically a cop family, until Kocourek got control of the MTSO. And there's an article out there somewhere stating how Arland basically got shunned after the new sheriff's tenure.
Kocourek managed to change the Averys from police family to a family of criminals.
Kocourek won the 1978 sheriff's race by the skin of his teeth -- "bitter 5-man race" -- which is why I think he held on to it so tightly.
PB and her family had $$$ and were supporters of his.
If Bergner solved PB's assault and then announced his run for sheriff the next year, who do you think they would've supported?
[–]jamesc182
I have heard Dave Begotka's videos. I've seen it linked to the Ricky Hochstetler case (17-year-old cold case killed by hit and run) and the Daniel Teren's case. I live in SD. I have reached out to people in the Manitowoc community, people who have told me they are to scared to discuss these things around town, and that's why they confide in me... so take it for what it's worth, but these guys who tell me this are not even Avery supporters.
Type of vehicle that stuck and killed Ricky Ricky Hochstetler in 1999: 1985-1988 Chevrolet SUV, pickup or van.
http://www.rickyh.com/News-or-Reviews.html
[–]alanamb37
I RECEIVED THIS EMAIL. IF YOU WANT THE NUMBER CONTACT ME
I'm writing about the corruption in Manitowoc County, it is somewhat related to the Steven Avery/Brenden Dassey case on Netflix. The day before Christmas (this year) I called the Manitowoc Sheriffs office to report that Kay Kocourek had told me that Tom Kocourek, her brother and the ex sheriff here in our county, ran over and killed Ricky Hockstettler in 1999. I also told them that I was told that the vehicle was repaired at Pietroske s dealership and that I was told a man named Nick did the bodywork. I made it clear that I didn't know if the allegations were true or not but that this needed to be investigated. They told me they would make an apt for me to come in for a taped/filmed statement. Within an hour detective Dan Weyker (920-683-5011) called me up and said that WE have already investigated everything and and that I wouldn't need to come to the station. I've been targeted by this police organization ever since I got involved in Joe Dheins' case. He was getting railroaded by the counties metro police division. He came to the tavern I was bartending at while attending the University of WI. Manitowoc campus. He told me some details and I asked if I could help. I set him up with an attorney Russel Stewart, the Ballesteros (sp?) bros lawyer in Milwaukee. At the trial the person that metro used as a witness stated that he was drunk when the metro unit picked him up and that his statements were false and that the police coerced and made him file a false witness statement. The case was dismissed. When Joe first approached me at the bar he stated that he was being targeted by metro because he knew that Mark Anderson, head of metro at the time, had sexually abused Donnie Hein's nephew (a friend of Joe). Kay was afraid to file a statement herself because she was abused in the Kocourek home's basement growing up and forced to perform felatio on her brother Gary. Kay has since passed, so it would seem that these allegations or statements can't be verified, but Kay's sister Sal is still alive and these same incestual practices were done to her. Robert Schmidt (920 860 1167), Kay's husband at the time of her death informed me that Kay and Sal went to her parents but were told that this didn't happen in a Kocourek household. He was also told the stories by Kay about her going to talk with brother Tom about the accident. Jeff Thompson (920 860 1124) was also told. I told Charlie Blish (920 973 6233) everything I knew over a lot of phone calls. I did this because he owned BD communications and did a lot of wiring for the county Sheriff's dept. I wanted them to know that I knew things and that if they quit targeting me, my family, and my friends that I would just shut up. I need to know where and how to make my statements. I also know and have talked to the German woman in this blog http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html and have talked to Dave Begotka from this you tube video:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/je35gOEL5wQ?autoplay=1
We need advice up here and we need to know who to report this info too. Please help my number is..
[–]DaCodfather
That's my email. Do you think you could take that down quicker than you could dig my foot out of your butt? People involved have friends and family up here. You're putting them in jeopardy. I'm in contact with the right people now. We're sitting here with our drapes pulled during the holiday season for the christ's sakes. Everyone of my neighbors are looking for snipers in the cemetery across the street. wth is wrong with you?
NOTE: In this thread in r/UnresolvedMysteries, DaCodfather revealed his full name (see comments below) .
[–]DaCodfather
Just so you people know why he received my email - I talked to a man at wbay TV, a man with integrity. I told him this story and he said to report it to Brown Counties Sheriff dept. After my statement they said we'd like to help you BUT it's not our jurisdiction and they suggested I call the state police, which I did. The state police at Fond du Lac said the same thing and suggested I call the criminal investigation unit in Madison, 608 266 1671. They unbelievably said no one was available for this and that I could fill out a form. I stated this was unacceptable and that I needed to come in and get a taped statement and that I was going to the FBI and I hung up. I waited a couple of days, trying to figure out where to go with this, and finally sent it to the MinnFBI and the federal DOJ. When I received no reply from them I decided to go directly to the lions den. I called the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept. and spoke to the switchboard or desk person and stated that I needed to know the process to come in to make a report on the 99' death of Ricky Hockstettler. I then told her that I didn't know if this was true or not but it needs to be investigated. I had told her what Kay, the ex sheriff's sister, had told me. She patched me through to a lower ranking deputy sheriff officer that I told what Kay had said. He said that they would set up an appt. for this week for me to come in. Within an hour, Dan Weyker (920 683 5011) called me back and I told him what Kay said and that another person told me that the vehicle (Tom's) was fixed at Pietroskies by a bodyman that he thought was named Nick. He, Weyker, then told me that WE investigated this all back in '99 and that it was a Copps dept store party at the Bilmar. He then asked who I all told this stuff to. I replied no one and that this was a small town, knowing full well my list would all be intimidated. It's happened in this county before. I then reached out to Brian McCorkle who blew me off. So I reached out to Trump, I built his tennis courts at Mar A Lago in Florida, The old Emily Post Mansion. My friends explained why he couldn't do anything and I regretted sending it to him, bummer cause I really like that guy. At this point I was getting sick (stress really makes the disease I have worse) and didn't know where to turn I then reached out to Jerry Buting but couldn't find his email addy. Don't ask, I was really sick.
[–]DaCodfather
I contacted Begotka (DrNephilim666) a few times to let him know that a person I know had invited me to his bar giveaway by the police and that I had found a person that had witnessed the ritualistic chanting that he talked about in his youtube statement to the 4 FBI branches that he sent the videos to. The house (mini mansion for these parts) was located on top of Spring St. in Manitowoc and owned by a family named Hansen (Hi Biff). The house is located on Michigan Ave. I think, I'm not about to leave this post box to check google maps. I have alot more info but that is going straight to Buting and Anonymous soon, probally as soon as I'm done typing here. If you guys want to have a good read go to the 'Justice for Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey' group on Facebook; it's a closed group and you will need to be accepted. As Terrel said "Get you popcorn ready" cause I'm not staying intimidated anymore....I promised Kay one day I would find a way to get her story out, and I made a promise to Ricky's mother too. Enough is enough. Now lets get the post with names down, please. I've got this handled. My email to the poster above was only made to leave enough foot prints that maybe they wouldn't off me.
[–]DaCodfather
As you folks can tell I tried many avenues to get 1, just 1 law enforcement agency to take my statement so something like this wouldn't get posted on the internet in plain sight. I'm sorry that my friends' names and numbers got posted. Kay, Ricky's mom, the Averys and many more families in Manitowoc County have cried themselves to sleep many nights. If they come to kill me today I just don't give a shit. BUT, you crooked cops should be forewarned that my house is set up with a camera so that the world can see. I didn't believe what the German woman told me at Glenn's bar but the fact that a cop was sitting at the end of the bar (by the pay phone) keeping an eye on her and her violent husband made me keep coming back to check on her. The cop's haircut and black leather jacket just didn't fit in, so I took note. After three or four visits she just disappeared. I was on the run since 1980, after getting Dhien the lawyer that law enforcement round these parts refer to as the mob. No driver's license and no pay stubs. Whenever my personal info hit the data banks (such as a paystub or my California license), I'd be on the road again. I'm sure the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept is starting a smear campaign against me now as I type but, folks, if I needed to be put in jail they would have me there now, silenced. So whatever they come up with I just don't care. I'm somewhat proud of my ccap record; the police should give me a medal. The last 5 guys I beat the hell out of are all dead. Not by me: they were the type of dealers that sold drugs to people that hurt people. The cops were either not smart enough to catch them or the criminals were just so dumb that it was easier for the cops to keep track of all their (the people I fought with) druggie friends. I don't know. The arguments I got into with my ex were caused by the law also. When I was away in the Navy one of the business owners up here thought it was acceptable to pursue my then wife.
The Ricky Hochstetler Situation & The Letter Naming Names on Reddit (Dave Begotka)
[–]DaCodfather
The DrNephilim666 videos (Dave Begotka) on youtube will tell you all you need to know about the club. If anything up here resembled a mafia it was this "club'. Watch all 3 parts. Go ahead and look at my ccap. Steven Walter (Willard) Grimm (My confirmation name, which is my Dad who was set up by these turds, also). Enough is enough. I'm ready to play dueling polygraphs with the whole lot of em. When I was about 13 my mother told me there's a certain group of people that think they run this town. She said the undesirables get felonies and get disarmed. She told me life isn't about what you're looking at, it's what you see; and that it's not about what you're listening to, but what you hear. She used to come home in a jailer's sheriff outfit and play cribbage all night with judge Jones while bartending. She'd come home with some wild conspiracy theories and I'd listen to them all. You pukes up here have to stop setting people up. I could list alot of people that did nothing wrong but the Manitowoc create a criminal code just keeps rolling along. Forgive my grammatical and spelling errors folks: most of the time I'm typing in the dark and I'm frazzled waiting for them to knock the door down. More to come from what should be known in the future as Avery county, if I'm still here and I have the internet yet. Have a good day....
[–]DaCodfather
We have to let this go. My email was meant for police eyes only. I told brian, the brain McCorkle, that when he said that he forwarded them to a reporter. I don't know if the poster that decided it was fit for public eyes is him, the reporter, someone else involved in law enforcement itself just trying to police itself, or.......the list is endless. That's an inherent problem with the net; you don't know who's typing. I'm not afraid to identify myself when I have conviction in my beliefs. The fact of the matter is that the system has failed Ricky's mother and that I saw fit to fight for her as best I could. If you people notice, I went to law officials and I went hard. I trusted in our system and I still do. Now these were people I feared, but I had no choice. I made promises, dammit. Then there was Kay, that netflix documentary, Dave Begotka's youtube video (which I believe), McCorkle's blog with a german woman I met: all gave me courage to fight for what's right. An investigation. That's all. In that netflix documentary, episode 9, about 55 minutes in, Strang talks about Dassey and it killed a piece of me inside. Then Teresa's home movie comes on and there's more pain and inner turmoil. Then you get a couple of judges that didn't have to pass a bar exam and you feel that a good ol boys club really does exist up here; and when they hand down those sentences and a little bit more of me got eaten away. Finally Strang and Buting give us a life lesson. I truly think they were trying to communicate with police officers, DA's, judges and juries as well as we individuals everywhere. Letting sleeping dogs lie would have been my easy choice but my convictions would not permit me to stand aside. All I wanted was an investigation. Dan Weyker at the Manitowoc Sheriff's office really let me down and then infuriated me with that "Who did you all tell?" comment. I wasn't about to be intimidated, and decided to fight for what's right. They should have known they couldn't intimidate me; they couldn't do it when they sent one of their narcs in Richard's bar when I was working to put a gun to my head and order me to get him a drink (I laughed and called 911 and told them to come collect him before I had to hurt him) - the social butterfly known as Barry Novak must have thought I was nuts when he witnessed this. But I still believe in our system as a whole. Without it we'd have nothing but chaos and anarchy. I would do this all over again to get Ricky's mother the answer she deserves. We can't let a few bad apples in life wreck our society, our structure, or our belief. This is one hell of alot of life strife to ask for an investigation, but it's only made my faith stronger, now that the boys are getting a new trial. Too bad Ricky's mother still has no idea what to think about her son's death. I would love to get alanamb37 alone for a chat right about now; he must have known I was running out of options. I don't know how he got it but I'm glad he had the courage to post it. That person deserves a hug. Sorry Deb, you may never get justice for your son. We can speculate all we want; the police have the job of investigating. I trust that they will.......Now I'm done (not likely) .......go pack go
[–]DaCodfather
You people might want to check out some of the money problems the county is/was having.
http://manitowocmegaphone.blogspot.com/2014/01/welcome-to-dystop-acratic-party-part-i.html
[–]jesusbuiltmyboxmod
Charges filed 3 days ago against this dude for assault and criminal damages if he is who he says he is...
[–]ThatReddit
Article here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3i85ad/who_killed_17year_old_richard_ricky_hochstetler/
To be fair to the suspect, that school does look like a castle.
[–]DaCodfather
More interesting reading about our fine community:
http://manitowocmegaphone.blogspot.com/2014/01/welcome-to-dystop-acratic-party-part-i.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3i85ad/who_killed_17year_old_richard_ricky_hochstetler/
Police: Manitowoc school intruder high on drugs, thought he was a knight
By Rhonda Roberts and Sari Soffer
Published: January 14, 2016, 8:59 am
Update: Steven Grimm’s bail was set at $1,000 cash Friday. As of 3:30 Friday afternoon, he was still in the Manitowoc County Jail.
Manitowoc Lincoln High School went into lockdown Thursday morning after a man on drugs was found inside, thinking he was in a castle, police say.
Steven Grimm, 58, was arrested for trespassing, damaging property for breaking the window of an empty classroom, battery for fighting with school staff, and burglary.
Police say Grimm admitted using marijuana, narcotics and alcohol the night before. He told police he thought he was a knight.
“Throughout the night he was having some illusions of being a knight in a castle, and with the way that Lincoln High School is shaped, with that tower up there, his goal was getting up into that tower,” Police Capt. Larry Zimney said.
Police say Grimm was on the third floor heading for the school tower when a student noticed him, knew he didn’t belong in the school, and alerted staff. That was about 6:45 a.m.
The Manitowoc Public School District says custodians tried to contain Grimm, who lunged at them and punched them.
“He made a comment that he had to leave now, and then immediately lunged at them, striking them with his fist,” Zimney said.
Officers were able to quickly arrest Grimm, who didn’t have any weapons. He’s being held in the Manitowoc County Jail.
Officers then started a sweep of the rest of the school to make sure no one else was inside.
Students arriving for classes were told to go to the cafeteria or auditorium — areas police cleared as “safe zones” — while officers searched the building.
“I just came into the doors and there were a bunch of cop cars, like it wasn’t normal at first. And then they just told us to go to the auditorium or cafeteria and they explained really what happened, someone broke in,” said student Jordan Meisner.
“They say whatever happened, the police took care of it, class just resumed,” senior Mollie Hang said.
The lockdown was lifted shortly after 8 a.m. and students went to class.
Police plan to review school security videos to figure out how he got inside the school but say it’s likely he walked in after school doors opened around 6 a.m.
“We have students who do fitness classes and clubs beginning as early as 6:30 in the morning supervised by staff, so we will confine to review the process, but we do have to have some doors open for our students to be able to come in,” Superintendent Mark Holzman said.
The superintendent says they’ll review security policies after police finish their investigation, but 1,300 students attend Lincoln High School so it’ll be difficult to limit entrances during the morning hours.
Video at link:
http://wbay.com/2016/01/14/manitowoc-school-intruder-taken-into-custody/
Manitowoc Lincoln High intruder due in court
A Manitowoc man who caused a lockdown Jan. 14 at Lincoln High School during which he thought he was a knight in a castle is due in Manitowoc County Circuit Court.
Steven W. Grimm, 58, will make his initial appearance before Judge Mark Rohrer at 2:30 p.m., Monday, Jan. 25.
He stands charged with felony substantial battery/intend bodily harm, and three misdemeanor charges — battery and two counts of criminal damage to property.
He faces a maximum penalty of one-and-a-half years in prison for the felony, and nine months for each of the misdemeanors.
According to the Manitowoc Police Department:
Officers were called to the school at about 6:45 a.m. after a student allegedly saw Grimm on the third floor and alerted staff members.
When custodial staff approached Grimm, who likely entered the school through an unlocked door a short time earlier, he became combative, said Capt. Larry Zimney of the Manitowoc Police Department. Grimm reportedly punched two custodians, one of whom was hit in the face and received minor injuries.
Staff members were able to detain Grimm until officers arrived and arrested him.
"This guy is all strung out on drugs and drinking and stuff like that," Assistant Chief Scott Luchterhand said. "Sounds like he was (at local bars) earlier in the night and supposedly was following some bunny tracks up to Lincoln High School ... and entered the high school."
Grimm cooperated with police when questioned, Zimney said. He admitted to using marijuana, narcotics and alcohol during the evening before entering the school.
At some point, Grimm also tried to get into the tower of the school and broke a window on an interior door in his attempts to do so, police said. He told officers he thought he was a knight in a castle and wanted to get to the highest part of the school.
"I can't make this stuff up," Zimney said.
The school went into lockdown while officers searched the school to ensure no other unauthorized people were inside.
Students and staff waited in the auditorium and cafeteria until about 8 a.m., according to a statement from the Manitowoc Public School District. After the school was deemed safe, classes resumed as usual.
Grimm didn’t have any weapons when he was arrested. He was released on $1,000 bail with the conditions that he have no contact with any schools or their premises, no contact with Manitowoc Public Utilities or their premises, and no contact with the victims or any premises they may occupy, and he must maintain absolute sobriety.
UPDATE: Steven W. Grimm, age 59, a Manitowoc resident, entered eternal life on Friday, July 1, 2016 at his residence. His death was almost a year after the comments about Tom Kocourek on Reddit.
Submitted by Minerva8918 at RickyHcase
September 16, 2016
The first part of the MTSO report can be found here!
A couple notes:
- A number of the pages were copied very poorly, so there are a lot of them that are missing at least one line of text at the bottom. And I'm going to be having a chat with MTSO about that because when I asked about it getting fixed (which was part of the reason there was a delay in me getting these up), Corporation Counsel (who takes care of the larger requests) gave a bs excuse. But there is a statute that states that copies should be as good as the originals, and since these aren't, they are going to hear about it again.
- There are pages where the text is really light/faded, but that is most likely how the original pages are, so that's not something I can fix. I can go through those pages and type up what they say at some point if anyone would like.
- The sloppy redaction done with marker was done before I received the documents.
- There are some addresses that were left, but most were redacted. The ones remaining either didn't have a name attached, or they are reference points for vehicle parts found, etc. I left Ricky's family's address there, but they no longer live at that address.
- The injuries Ricky sustained are briefly written about in a couple different places. It was difficult to read for me personally, so I just want to give notice that they are there.
- There are some mostly blank pages in the 90s range. All that was removed was private family information.
- I have left most names in the reports. Understand that people who called CrimeStoppers tips in were doing the right thing by calling in leads that they felt should be checked out whether they panned out or not.
- There are some very serious allegations made about a previous sheriff, TK. The man who made those also posted them on Reddit. Sadly, he committed suicide back in July, just in case anyone didn't see the comments I've made about it.
Has anyone seen this supposed letter from SA saying the sheriff killed 17 year old in 1999
By MustangGal at TickTockManitowoc
June 21, 2016
I have no clue if this was indead written by SA. Some is saying that he sent it to them. So as of now, take it with a grain of salt.
http://imgur.com/G4iMUpA
[–]Alien_Evidence_Tech
Late in early January 1999, there was a rumoured MTSO function at the Bil-Mar. A banquet hall that handles weddings and parties, etc. Important to note, there was a main hall, and a bar area.
Late that night, 230AM a motorist reported a deceased boy (Ricky Hochstetler) on the road.
Hermann (who would later be Sheriff) was called to the scene as a 'auto-expert', he claimed later this case was 'career making' even though it was unsolved. The problem is he says he was called to the scene between 1:30-2:30, but the accident hadn't been reported until 2:30.
Was he called there earlier because an MTSO Sheriff (Kocourek) was the person driving? Some people have implied this in online posts.
Worth noting Bushman was in charge of the case and it went unsolved. Bushman also came out of retirement to help with the Avery case.
AND, someone local claimed that Kocourek's deceased sister had told him personally this was all true. This is an alleged claim mind you. But the person who reportedly made it, stated the cops told him there was no MTSO party at Bil-Mar that night, that it was a COPPS grocery store party instead. Many people from the area have been told the same thing. The problem is that it was apparently common knowledge MTSO was there that night.
And even if not, did they not check every single person that was there. It's the closest place for a drunk driver to have come from that night.
The poster who made these claims online, also stated that Kocourek's late sister told him that indeed it was Kocourek. And he had the body work done at this dealership by someone named Nick. Notice the name of the VP who's been second in charge in that company for 20 years: http://www.pietroske.com/Staff.
There's two "Nick's" in the Avery case. One might be related to ST, NT, who worked at the aluminum factor and is listed in the police reports. It's also been stated he's a friend of MTSO staff. And then N Mirsberger, who was the guy they called to move the RAV4. If the story is real (mind you this is all just allegations/speculations) made online, it certainly makes people wonder if one of those Nicks might be one in the same.
The cops searched over 10,000 possible vehicles in the 6 closest counties. Narrowed down to a GM vehicle, either Van, SUV or Truck, within a 5 year generation. The idea that they couldn't solve this, with all the DMV information at their disposable is kinda hard to imagine.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4p69ef/has_anyone_seen_this_supposed_letter_from_sa/
Now we know what MTSO Sheriff meant by "easier for us to just kill Avery." Past performance is indicative ... https://t.co/Q8uX5nV35H— Jerome Buting (@JButing) September 14, 2016
Manitowoc sheriffs: Kocourek, Peterson, and Hermann (elected 3 times). Voters, shame on you. You wonder why your rep is bad? It predates MaM— Jerome Buting (@JButing) September 14, 2016
Bushman=Kocourek's favorite little helper:— MsMinxster (@MsMinxster) September 12, 2016
'85 PB case
'99 RH case
'05 TH case@johnferak @Jbuting #MakingAMurderer https://t.co/CAklHFyZZX
"Manitowoc County never explored the possibility that a car might be involved in the crime." @johnferak MTSO not as dumb as they look.— Jerome Buting (@JButing) September 14, 2016
Avery lawsuit: Ex-sheriff Ken PetersenPart 1: Manitowoc sheriff under fire in 1999 homicide https://t.co/sVSPjfSNSG cc @JButing @ZellnerLaw @TManitowoc @radleybalko @USATODAY— John Ferak (@johnferak) September 12, 2016
John Ferak, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin
March 8, 2016
First of a five-part video series examining Steven Avery's $36 million lawsuit against Manitowoc County.
Sheriff Ken Petersen decided not to conduct any investigation into his agency's botched rape case that mistakenly put Avery in prison for 18 years for a rape he didn't commit.
Name: Kenneth Petersen, Manitowoc County sheriff, 2001-2007; retired after 32 years in the department.
Biography: Manitowoc native; 1967 graduate of Manitowoc Lincoln High School; obtained associate degree in marketing in 1969 from Lake Shore Technical College, bachelor of science in criminal justice in 1988 from Mount Senario College; joined Manitowoc County in May 1975 as a traffic officer.
Role in Avery wrongful conviction:
Petersen was the sergeant who wrongly arrested Avery for the July 29, 1985 rape ,which actually was committed by Gregory Allen.
Key moments from Petersen's sworn testimony of Oct. 13, 2005:
On the night of July 29,1985, Sheriff Tom Kocourek ordered Petersen, then a patrol sergeant, to arrest Avery for the brutal attack on Penny Beerntsen.
- "As the shift commander, I would have enlisted the help of other patrol officers. I contacted James Froelich and Mike Bushman and then I make a call to Arland Avery to make sure Steve still lived where I thought he lived. And Arland had some concerns so he asked us if we'd meet at his house and talk to him. So we did, and Arland expressed concern that if Steve resisted ... somebody would get hurt and he asked if I would let him come along so that he could try and talk to Steve so that, you know, everything would go smoothly."
- "None of the people that were involved in the case in the investigative part were there."
- "There were just a few times, no more than three ... Normally, if I was to compare himself to myself, I wouldn't be involved."
- "I believe both Andy Colborn and James Lenk came to my office and the same time. (Colborn) said when he was working in the jail, he had received a phone call I believe from a detective in Brown County that he had a suspect who said that he had assaulted a person in Manitowoc County and somebody else was in prison. And that's about it. He said he referred it to a detective and heard nothing of it after that."
- "There was a letter from some inmate from Brown County Correctional I believe that went in there. I don't know who, but he said that Steve (Avery) admitted to the crime, and I know the sheriff had left that when he left office. There's a small safe in his former office that would have had that."
By foghaze at Reddit
I've come to my own conclusions about who killed TH. Why they did it and how they did it. You don't have to agree but after reading all the documents and researching for hundreds of hours this is the only thing that makes sense out of all of it.
We don't know much about what was going on in Avery's civil case and I believe that is for a very good reason. I think if we had the documents we may be singing a whole new tune about who we think had a motive. I found a link to all the documents in Avery's Civil case here. None are available for free except for one. However, this one document can give us a pretty good idea of what was going on regarding the case. It appears to me that this civil suit would have been a very big deal to Kocourek and Vogel specifically. Not only are they named but if you read the only document we have access to at the moment you can see almost everything they are being accused of personally. From what I can tell this would have ruined their lives completely. It wasn't just about the large sum of money but it was also about their names, their careers, their dignity, their respect. Their lives would be shattered! This one document is very specific in that it lists everything they did to frame Avery and it isn't pretty. I wish we had the rest. I will ask /u/Skipptopp to please consider getting access to these files. If all the funds have run out I think we should all get together and raise just enough to get access to this. I think it will answer many of our questions.
One of the most interesting things about this document. (Aside from it being in Oct 2005) is it looked so bad for both Vogel and Kocourek that they asked for a TRIAL BY JURY October 2005. You know it's bad when someone demands a Jury. So it wasn't good at all for these two. It outlines and accuses Vogel and Koucorek personally in their wrong doing. If Avery would have won this thing (which it looked like he was going to). It would have been a public spectacle, and it would have been the end for these two and, quite possibly, looking at jail time if Avery won.
So let me set the scenario up for you. We have all the other people in LE who have had their depositions. Lenk, Colborn, Kushe, Petersen, etc.. They all are running around talking about and asking each other "what did you say?" "How do you think it went?" "What do you think will happen?" Etc etc. Right? So as much as they claim they didn't talk about it you would be a fool to think they didn't. All of these men had been working together for decades so of course they are talking about it amongst themselves! They are relaying everything to each other amongst themselves. Lenk and Colborn tell Peterson and Peterson tells Vogel and Kocourek. Everyone who was involved and deposed tried to downplay it all through the investigation and trial, and everyone bought it. (I even bought it). The reality is they were all shitting themselves. Especially after they were all caught off guard in the depositions.
On top of all this Vogel, Kocourek et al. had a deep hate for SA already and this civil suit put them over the edge. I believe they would have done anything in their power to keep from the tables turning. The thought of them being publicly humiliated and held responsible for their actions didn't sit well with them at all. More fuel to the fire is SA turns out the Millionaire and they are left with nothing. Talk about the tables turning! Their hate for this man is very clear. If this civil suit went through it would mean Avery WON and they lost. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen. Not a chance. From what I can tell just by reading this document it looks to me like Avery was well on his way to winning the civil suit and everyone involved knew it. Otherwise why would they ask for a TRIAL by JURY?
Moving on, everyone involved kept all the dirty details of the civil suit low key and only discussed it amongst themselves. They made the public believe it wasn't a big deal and they even made the public think Avery was suing just the county and no one personally which if you read the link to the document above you can see that is a big fat lie. In fact, there were talks about naming other individuals in the lawsuit. Specifically Kushe, Colborn and Lenk, and they knew it too. Colborn even admits on the stand he was concerned about being named.
With that being said, Kocourek and Vogel were both out of the Manitowoc LE picture by this time. Vogel had moved on to bigger and better things and Kocourek had retired. I'm really surprised at how many of us forget how much of a motive these men had. This got me to thinking. I am pretty convinced these big dogs (Vogel and Koucorek) had something to do with TH murder. Why not? They set him up the first time didn't they? So why wouldn't they do it again? How would they do it?
I think it would be similar as the first time. In fact, I see a multitude of similarities from the 1985 case and this one. They also knew that killing Avery wasn't an option b/c they would still be liable in the civil case, and they also knew that the public would be very suspicious of them, and Avery would be dead so he would have no voice in the matter. So to avoid the public blaming them they decide to frame him for murder. How could they do it? One of the big dogs could easily hire someone. These men had contact with criminals. Of course they would know someone who would do the deed for the right price. They most likely just threatened them into doing it. That seems to be their trend there. By getting someone else to kill TH it helps with their own conscience because they aren't the ones who are actually pulling the trigger. That is how they deal with it. They get a criminal to do their dirty work.
The way I see it is if one of these men did it then they wouldn't really need to tell everyone in LE what they did. In fact once TH went missing and everyone in LE saw she had been to SA's they were thinking "HOLY SHIT! Someone killed her to blame it on Avery! I gotta roll with this." I think it was more of a "Silent" frame job and none of them spoke a word of it to each other. I believe they all knew it was an inside job and just went with it to cover their own asses. I don't think many knew it was Vogel and/or Kocourek and no one would even dare ask. They just went with the flow because several others in LE were also concerned they may be liable in Avery's suit as well. In other words they all knew what they needed to do without asking questions. Once the deed was done everyone in LE just went with the flow. Let's face it. It was a terrible frame up job. They clearly didn't have time to think it all though. They just knew they had to roll with it and that they did.
Something else peculiar that I've been questioning is on Nov 5, the day the car was found. Petersen, who was sheriff at the time, was also good buddies with Vogel and Kocourek. They had worked together most of their lives. Petersen was out of town and arrived home late 11/5. He stated he immediately "divorced himself" from the investigation, and he did! Now why would he do that? Is it because he knew? That is the only thing I can think of. I think he bolted out of town before it all went down and he knew something was going to happen and it wasn't good. Being out of town is a great alibi and a really good way to keep himself out of the picture. If you think about it, all these "big dogs" were very successful at staying out of the picture.
If you ask me there was more than 36 million motives to frame Avery. Everything these well respected men had worked for all their lives could be washed down the drain. Their dignity and respect with the community out the window forever and their worst nightmare of some low life scum practically owning the County and most of the state would come true. There is no way in hell they were going to let that happen and they didn't.
It has been stated many times statistically the likelihood of TH being murdered by some random person who had also coincidentally had contact with SA that day is slim to none. Manitowoc has approximately one murder every 2 years. We are supposed to believe this random murder with perfect timing just fell into LE's lap? Come on. We are delusional if we believe this. I will admit I had gone back and forth but now that I have put a lot of thought into this there is no other way this could have happened if Avery didn't do it. Which I believe 100% he did not.
One more thing I'd like to add. This scenario doesn't go well with what KZ has stated about TH knowing her killer. I realize this and I do wonder a lot about what Zellner has actually found. I feel like she says things just to throw the guilty parties off. She has stated she doesn't want them to "run" and in all honesty I would do the same. Everything she publically states is very calculated. We are talking about someone's life here. There is no way she would say anything to jeopardize SA or BD. I wouldn't and I may even tell some white lies. With that being said I really truly believe Vogel and Kocourek had the biggest motive of all and I think they had the power to pull it off without neither actually having to pull the trigger. All they would need to do is make some phone calls. Being how messed up TH phone records are (one number even being disconnected) I'd say that is exactly what they did.
Teresa was "lured in" all right but it wasn't by SA. I believe it was someone pretending to be Zipperer because she didn't have his address. They called her and told her to meet them somewhere. That was the real 2:27 call. It wasn't Autotrader like they want us to believe. I believe it was this number that was ironically enough disconnected by the time LE looked into it. Coincidence again? I think not!
If anything I think Ryan, MH and Pam did play a role but by that time everyone was convinced it was Avery so if LE asked RH and SH to tell Pam where the car was it doesn't mean they had anything to do with the actual murder. I just think they were approached by LE early morning 11/5 and LE told them they think they saw TH car in the aerial search in the junkyard and LE pointed to the location they should "Search". This is why RH, MH and Pam all look guilty. It's because they are but it's something minor compared to murder. They were clueless and really did think Avery did it. Just like everyone else brainwashed in that area. I think Vogel and or Kocourek hired a actual criminal they were familiar with to do the actual deed.
I think LE had a say in where they should be looking. Not they thought LE did it but they trusted them. Then LE convinced them it was Avery so playing a small role with helping LE didn't seem so bad to them. I'm sure they thought they were doing the right thing. I'm sure this happened to others as well. Specifically others in LE. It all worked because everyone had been convinced Avery did it. So what does "this one thing" hurt? See what I mean?
[–]magiclougie
"Teresa was "lured in" all right but it wasn't by SA. I believe it was someone pretending to be Zipperer because she didn't have his address."
The lead sheet for October 31st had Zipperer's address. Dawn Plizka would have faxed this to Teresa around 7 a.m. on October 31st because that's what she did every morning for each photographer scheduled on a particular day. Dawn called Teresa that morning to tell her about the last-minute Janda photo shoot request on Avery Road (probably following it up by faxing the same information); and if Teresa hadn't received her "Detailed Photographer Appointment Report" for the day she would said so at that time, plus Dawn would have given her Zipperer's information as well. The "Detailed Photographer Appointment Report" was what Teresa used to make notes about her appointments and is the report she faxed back to AT at the end of her work day (the faxed report would have been in Teresa's vehicle, but all her papers and equipment were thrown out or destroyed by the killer, which is the reason why there isn't a fax stamp on exhibit 20: it is the printout of what Dawn faxed to Teresa that morning).
It was common for Wisconsin natives to substitute "trunk" for "road" or "highway" (and many highways and county roads in Wisconsin are labelled using the alphabet). Kratz even used the term "trunk" during his direct examination of Schmitz. Teresa was a local who traveled regularly throughout the counties of Calumet, Brown, Sheboygan and Manitowoc. She would have known that Country Trunk B was County Road B, which runs northward from Manitowoc to Two Rivers (parallel to County Road Q). Furthermore, Angela Schuster, in her statement to a DCI agent, said the Zipperer address was 4433 CTH B, not even clarifying if it was a road or highway since it was common for Wisconsinites to abbreviate it this way, and Teresa would have understood what this meant.
Q. After Ms Halbach concluded her transaction with you, do you know which way she left, which way she drove?
A. She headed north on Highway A.
Q. And for those of us not familiar with the New Holstein area, does going north on Highway A intersect with any large roads that we would know?
A. It was formerly Highway 149, now I believe it's HH.
Q. What's north of that, is what I'm asking?
A. 151, if you keep going north.
Q. 151 would be the main road or the main trunk road between would be Chilton and the Calumet County area and Manitowoc; is that right?
A. Yes.
Who's Who in RickyH case? MTSO's Dirtiest:— MsMinxster (@MsMinxster) September 14, 2016
Kocourek
Petersen
Hermanns
Bushman
Lenk
Colborn
Remikerhttps://t.co/7U4SVZZ1MJ #MakingAMurderer
[–]Classic_Griswald
ReplyDeleteAs for the people who want to cite the Avery's as a 'one branch tree' and claim they are a bunch of sexual deviants...etc-if you go looking for rumours floating out of Manitowoc on other famous MTSO names, there are some circulating about the opposite side as well.
There are claims online about the Kocourek's household too. Supposedly passed on to someone by one of their family members. Whether or not its true, who knows. Keeping these kinds of things secret is much easier if you maintain a powerful position and exercise that power over weaker families in town. The threat alone will keep people quiet about the power structure, while they are able to exploit and encourage rumours about the targeted families, e.g. Avery's. For instance.
I'm not saying this is exactly as it happened or that's how it is, but at the same time, you can just look around and listen to people from the area, and form your own opinion on things.
Residents from the area:
I hated living there and rarely think about people I knew back then. I think the most I recall was how petty most people were, and drama driven for being such a small community. I frequently ran into Manitowoc County Sherrif Dept as a child because I spent a lot of time around Maribel Caves, they never really stood out as helpful or nice and would always attempt to grill me on things for no reason. As if they were attempting to create drama and problems where none existed.
Another post from a resident:
The biggest thing I noticed off the bat is people around here judge you based on whom you're related too. I'm consistently asked who my parent's are, what school I attend, and who my siblings are.
Essentially you're broken into 3 groups.
You're like me and you didn't grow up here and have no roots and you're considered an outsider.
You've grown up here and are known by the community majority in a positive light.
Your family has lived here for a generation or 2 and possibly your uncle or 2nd cousin made some bad decisions(Jail/Prison) and the community has gotten wind of such decisions. Which unfortunately brands you as a trouble maker or a shitty person and you're treated as a felon even though you, yourself have done nothing wrong.
[–]Blackmambaano5
You have that correct with the 3 groups but I will add that they will embellish on what they think they know about you and make up what they want others to know about you whether or not your a local yokel or not. Wisconsin people are very nice people, friendly waves as you drive down the back roads, smiling faces at "The Pig" (Piggly Wiggly) and the moment they walk out of church down to the nearest tavern it's on where gossiping and back stabbing is an olympic sport. BTW--Happy Friday Night Fish Fry
[–]Pam_Of_Gods-Monocle
Interesting... so, this is sort of like how Sandy Morris went around town shite talking about Steven, according to Steven, himself?
[–]Blackmambaano5
Correct
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4lbspi/discussionquestion_a_follow_up_on_umsminxsters/
[–][deleted] 9 points 1 month ago
ReplyDeleteSometimes I have wondered that our MaM trouble started and ended with a huge focus on Allen, his activities, his possible military background, and his connections to others involved. Many posters (including you and /u/liftsheavy) were intent upon digging deeper into the Gregory Allen story and then the hammer came down. I don't know if that is a coincidence or not.
[–]liftsheavy 4 points 1 month ago
I'm not sure why they stopped us from posting there. Maybe the FBI is got involved?
I know when I started posting about Amber Wilde a girl from Green Bay that went missing after having a fender bender with someone in 1998. My post was taken down 2 times. I only wanted to point out the coincidences with these two cases. Teresa's Rav4 had damage and she went missing. Amber was pregnant by a (Kinda) one night stand and the guy wanted her to get an abortion. He was never charged. He is the main suspect but until they convict him we can assume anyone may have killed her.
[–]chromeomykiss
I still fully think there is some connection with GA to someone at MTSO and a connection to the reason GA was in WI after NC... that GA/MTSO connection is out there somewhere...and I think u/refukulator is on top something with the Vogel/Hennepin Co. connecting...even if Hennepin is a huge and populous county.
[–]JJacks61 4 points 1 month ago
It almost seems like GA was some kind of off-book informant. I'm not saying he was, but what would make Kocourek and Vogel, both knowing who this guy is, protect him? From some other cases I have seen, CI's sometimes get away with some pretty terrible crimes. I agree though, it does seem like there is a piece missing.
[–]knowjustice[S] 4 points 1 month ago
Being a native of Manitowoc and having discussed numerous issues with other former locals, yes, something is missing. The GA thing is really bizarre. Manitowoc was a very safe community. Very little crime including B& E's, theft. It just didn't happen.
So why would the LE community suddenly place an entire community at risk knowing full well people took it for granted they had little if anything to worry about. To me, that is the biggest question. And in the mid-80's not much had changed from a demographic perspective from the 60's and 70's. It makes no sense the MTSO and Vogel would be so cavalier about such a dangerous person. IMO, what they did borders on criminal negligence.
[–]JJacks61 6 points 1 month ago
It makes no sense the MTSO and Vogel would be so cavalier about such a dangerous person. IMO, what they did borders on criminal negligence.
Indeed, and the fact Allen went on to assault more women it is a little surprising this wasn't picked up by the media in great detail. But I think in many ways the media had a major role in all of this as well.
[–]knowjustice[S] 3 points 1 month ago
Agreed. But the HTR is a small paper so I doubt they had a FT crime beat reporter. Therefore, they would rely on info provided by the cops. I contacted John Ferak and requested he research any news articles related to GA during that time period. He has access.
[–]angieb15 3 points 1 month ago
Someone said GA was military and maybe there was a connection there. Military has it's own fraternal atmosphere. I think that was in the thread where the files were originally posted.
[–]smugwash 2 points 1 month ago
Was it hatred for Avery's or were they trying to protect GA and once cop Avery had gone they had no one in LE to help them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4lbspi/discussionquestion_a_follow_up_on_umsminxsters/
My favorite theory on who a witness could be (self.TickTockManitowoc)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/52dken/my_favorite_theory_on_who_a_witness_could_be/
submitted by hos_gotta_eat_too
September 12, 2016
Far fetched, but imagine the "shock and horror" if we get access to her brief, and her star witness is none other than...
Gregory Allen
Giving specific details on his connection with Vogel and Koucerek that allowed him to walk free through the city and county, to rape when he wanted.
Imagine the shock and horror if (speculating)..Vogel and Koucerek arranged it for some reason to have Penny raped by Allen, and they were how he knew he wasn't being watched that day? How juicy would the details from Allen regarding those two be, and all those secrets were gonna come out if they were deposed.
would set the table very nicely for her to begin pecking away and the "allies" these two have that could share more details on how TH died, before they get sold down the river by the former sheriff and DA.
That's my dream new witness anyways. Would be awesome if she convinced him she would get him substantial legal help if he talked.
Wow. What a thing to picture!
[–]OzTm 12 points 1 day ago
I've been listening to the audiobook of 'The Innocent Killer'. The first half of the book goes into the GA debacle. After 9 months of reading about this case - I somehow never picked up that GA's criminal complaint was in the prosecution's fucking file on SA!
Methinks that the 'axis of evil' resides at the DA's office in Manitowoc. I wouldn't put anything past them any more!
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too[S] 18 points 1 day ago
well we have Vogel, giving a known rapist an alibi
Kratz forcing himself on vulnerable women
The prosecutor that ran against Brad Schimel, who lost the election after it was discovered she postponed prosecuting an alleged sex offender, because he happened to be the guy she was selling her house to, and she waited for the sale to finalize first.
Then Schimel, who in reading up on him..seems like a good enough guy, but toes the state agenda line by not seeing how clear a railroad this case was. It's his job as an AG to investigate possible corruption and even allegations of corruption in a case, and he has shown no willingness to do so...might ruffle feathers for his political future
Then you have Griesbach, who comes into town on a white horse, exposes his boss..Vogel as being the dirty rat he is..Avery is freed. And Rohrer takes the new DA position. Not him..so "oooh that's how the game is played" he apparently realizes and plays ball, to say how guilty Avery is...and STILL gets passed over for the DA position in Manitowoc County, when the now DA is given the position by Scott Walker when Rohrer moves on to become a judge...a position that Griesbach so desperately wants more than even being an author I believe.
So i have to ask. What the fuck is with prosecutors in Wisconsin that they are ALL so shady? I am hoping the new DA in Manitowoc County breaks the mold, but I honestly don't hold my breath.
CONTINUED...
[–]OzTm 11 points 1 day ago
ReplyDeleteIt just makes me think there is something fundamental about this whole situation I am missing. I feel like a dog looking at a calculus assignment.
All the bullshit seems to be raining down from branches above. The question is - how far up the tree so you have to to to find the asshole responsible?
[–]AgentSpectre 5 points 23 hours ago
Research "the club."
[–]DarthLurker 5 points 20 hours ago*
the club.
Golf Course in Manitowoc? Can you shed any light on this? Please share your meaning.
edit: Nevermind, I found it... wow.
http://www.begotka.com/steve-avery-theclub/
[–]danesays 3 points 19 hours ago
I believe AgentSpectre is referring to the shadowy Eyes Wide Shut-esque sex club that a few locals have mentioned. Dave Begotka has been the most vocal about it. (I don't know if the club exists or not, and I haven't looked into it – just sharing information.)
u/hos_gotta_eat_too – is it okay to use Dave's full name here? It's on his YouTube channel, and his Reddit username is literally davebegotka, IIRC. But I will edit if you think I should.
[–]jedidesignerd 1 point 19 hours ago
LOL Upvote just for your UN. ;)
[–]AgentSpectre 1 point 16 hours ago
It is deep. Very deep.
[–]JLWhitaker 7 points 1 day ago
Some psychopaths become serial killers, and other psychopaths become prosecutors. - Bob Ruff, Truth and Justice, June 2016
Politics and self preservation seem to prevail over truth and justice.
[–]s_wardy_s 7 points 1 day ago
Corruption lies very deep in Manitowoc, and the state backs them up, effectively allowing corruption to go much higher.
[–]AlpineBlues 7 points 1 day ago
Remember how KZ stated "we have a witness that we believe is credible".? Or something like that. The way she says it always lead me to believe that 1. Though this person is shady, we believe their version of events, OR 2. Though they had a role in this, we believe they are forthcoming now. OR 3. Though they told a different story officially, they were being coached by a particular pastey, doughy Prosecuter................Regardless, my mind ran through all the shady people in the documentary and imagined them receiving a visit from KZ, and how that visit would go down, and THIS was one of the scenarios. Cool that you had the guts to say it.
[–]sophiegirl14 6 points 23 hours ago
As I have said before "The Club" doesn't sound so implausible now does it. I thought this exact same thing yesterday. What if GA is fessing up to some things now. What if GA had some things on TK in relation to his sister's allegations. Hmmmm that would be interesting now wouldn't it.
[–]Scotsthistle 6 points 23 hours ago
Not so far fetched IMO. I've always wondered if PB had issues with LE. or she may be yet another human sacrifice. It just seems to me as though GA was unleashed on this woman in a favourite hunting ground, or... Steven was used to stop her suing them for allowing GA loose to commit this crime. I'm quite prepared to be shocked and horrified, but absolutely nothing will surprise me.
[–]OzTm 3 points 17 hours ago
PB and her husband owned the lolly shop in town I believe. Maybe her attack in 1985 was 'the Club's way of convincing her husband to join...... Or else.
CONTINUED...
[–]SilkyBeesKnees 7 points 23 hours ago
ReplyDeleteWhat a thing indeed! I love these little excursions your mind makes, hos. If Vogel & Koucerek were involved in Penny's rape I think it would support Begotka's claims of seeing other people leaving the scene at the beach that day, too. I think it's time for me to actually go and listen to his videos. Haven't given him enough attention but the more we learn the more I feel he may actually know something.
[–]IrishCarBobOmb 1 point 22 hours ago
What if they taped it as a stag-type film, and somehow TH became connected to it (accidentally? intentionally?)
[–]Jesushx2 1 point 19 hours ago
Oh do! I just watched them the other day. It's like the saga of unending shady invitations and the resulting "I don't want to join your club! It's a free country man!"
It's like a cross between David Lynch and Coen Brothers up there in manitowoc....
[–]N0VA77 7 points 20 hours ago
When I try to make sense of this case, I always end up in 1985. Not only SA was framed but also GA was protected. So I think that's the key. 1) Why was SA framed? 2) Why they protected GA? Maybe in 2005 it wasn't Allen but another person they protected. But who?
[–]OzTm 3 points 17 hours ago
I have a hunch that in 1985, something else was going on. SA took the wrap for the assailant. If SA had gotten off, GA was plan B. Two levels of indirection to hide the original perp maybe?
[–]Snowstar01 3 points 15 hours ago
I keep going back to the 83 even. Griesbach says in 03 when he received word on the dna freeing Avery he calls Vogel. Vogel tells him there is a report on GA in SA's file. That report states GA was masterbating while running toward a woman. The exact thing Sandra accuses SA of doing in 83. I think they could be setting up GA and SA as having prior sexual assault historys. During depositions GK states he wants to know where the dna from GA comes from. Dna can be planted. Could there be a club? Could GA and SA both have been
used as fall guys?
[–]What_a_Jem 3 points 23 hours ago
Does KZ say she has a "credible witness", or that she has a witness with "credible" information?
[–]AlpineBlues 3 points 22 hours ago
Well now she says she has "crucial witnesses", but in that interview a couple months ago she said she had a witness she believed was credible.
[–]What_a_Jem 1 point 20 hours ago
Thanks, I'm glad you can keep on top of everything! I don't think GA could be considered a credible witness, but depending on the nature of any information he might have, then the information might be considered credible.
My own idea, is that it might be a civilian employee who has come forward, maybe moved away and retired, wasn't sacked or had disciplined so no axe to grind, but they might have information of how the investigation was intentionally focused on Avery to the exclusion of other, which would be a repeat of 1985. Got away with once, why not again.
CONTINUED...
[–]mddet 2 points 22 hours ago
ReplyDeleteThis post is now in my top 3 of being so close to the real truth of what happened. What are the other 2 you ask? Lets just say fog, ductit, hos. No offense to any other sleuths but when i come on here i yearn to see their names. Tick tock tick tock......
[–]Jesushx2 2 points 19 hours ago*
Me too.
I hope this isn't off topic, but after recently watching the Begotka videos, I went on a Mary Dehne search. And someone had found her grave record and some basic info of her date of death but nothing else.
And right next to that was info on her brother! What are the odds that her brother's entire family died of tragic accidents? First his three very young children died in a fire. (1964?) Then in 67 or 68 he shoots himself in the head? And a couple years later his wife is killed in a car accident. It's just all so creepy up there.
Ok if you look for Mary Dehne in this cemetery list, it has her family. They have links to articles about their deaths. She has nothing, no articles. http://www.2manitowoc.com/69.html
(Mary Dehne was Dave's partner in his bar business who was killed, after she was being pressured into getting Dave to join the club. She btw became his bar partner after her bar was just burned down. She died of a "heart attack" with blood everywhere....
The link comes from this post https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/409m5q/time_to_consider_the_extreme_lets_dig_into_this/?
Mary's info comes from his YouTube (first three videos I believe)
[–]Thewormsate 2 points 17 hours ago
Oh yeah, another suspicious death, what's the count up to now? WTH!
[–]now_biff 1 point 10 hours ago
Finally a plausible reason why GA was protected! In return for immunity, GA committed the rape at their instruction so they could frame SA, in revenge for driving that cops wife off the road.
I know the pieces fit
[–]Anniebananagram 1 point 10 hours ago
I really think it all comes down to this:
http://m.imgur.com/T6a1QKY,j2qP7f8,hIzdmGX,4HfnTxD
Update! Subreddit for Ricky Hochstetler is live!
ReplyDeletesubmitted an hour ago by Minerva8918
Hi everyone!
Thank you so much for your patience over the last month! I have all of the documents requested thanks to all the wonderful people who donated!
I'm finishing up redacting the MTSO file still (it's over 1200 pages), but I'm posting the DCI file to start the conversations.
We're working on the sidebar and all, but we'll get it together soon!
Ricky's mom /u/debihoch will be reading and posting when she can, and she really looks forward to seeing everyone's thoughts.
Thanks for being so supportive! Come on over to /r/RickyHcase
https://www.reddit.com/r/RickyHcase
JButing tweet re Manitowoc Sheriffs
ReplyDeleteJerome Buting @JButing 12h12 hours ago
Manitowoc sheriffs: Kocourek, Peterson, and Hermann (elected 3 times). Voters, shame on you. You wonder why your rep is bad? It predates MaM
Jerome Buting @JButing 7h7 hours ago
Jerome Buting Retweeted John Ferak
Now we know what MTSO Sheriff meant by "easier for us to just kill Avery." Past performance is indicative ...
[in reference to part 2 of the Ferak series on the RH case]
Who's Who in Ricky Hochstetler homicide
John Ferak, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin 2:52 p.m. CDT September 12, 2016
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/12/whos-who-ricky-hochstetler-homicide/82207652/
Manitowoc sheriff under fire in 1999 homicide
Hit-and-run death of 17-year-old boy remains an unsolved mystery.
John Ferak, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/08/manitowoc-sheriff-under-fire-1999-homicide/80862938/
Mother wants to forgive her son's killer
ReplyDeleteDebi Hochstetler has little faith in the Manitowoc County justice system.
John Ferak, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/14/mother-wants-forgive-hersons-killer/87542208/
Missteps hamper 1999 hit-and-run death probe
ReplyDeleteManitowoc County officials failed to include state assistance in probing death of teenager.
John Ferak, USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/13/missteps-hamper-1999-hit-and-run-death-probe/87390800/
[–]angieb15 at Reddit
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to get into the arguments. I just realized there was a sub for Ricky Hochstetler and that Skipp has gotten documents for the case. I definitely think people should check out /r/RickyHCase and read the documents. I had no idea that:
1. People were saying from the beginning that a cop, last name Herm*** , the cop who owned the other Salvage Yard..... hit the boy.
2. AC, MTSO's favorite Tool, is now the lead investigator.
3. The missing Lenk Was the Investigator at one point? Told the Mother she couldn't have the records of her son's case (um illegal much). Also lied to the Mother about DCI refusing to get involved.
4. Our retired officer LT. Bush*** who so conveniently came out of retirement to lead a team at SA's the day they Found "evidence" was the first officer on the scene, Herm 2nd.
So, definitely we should drop the arguments but, for Steve, Brendan and Ricky, I want to see them all go down, and the Ricky H Case could help that happen....Tick Tock...
[–]knowjustice
Rick's case appears to have far more relevance to MaM than anyone initially suspected. When my pal discovered the ST connection and I subsequently found the BT connection while reading the MTSO "Crime Stopper Reports," I was stunned. What are the odds???
Good post!
ReplyDelete[–]bellisx13 8 points 23 days ago
ReplyDeleteKen Peterson and Tom Kocourek. I believe they plotted this out together and made it happen. They have the means, motive and opportunity to pull it off.
Peterson being out of town the very week this whole TH thing transpired was just too convenient. I believe it was an effort on Peterson's part to establish an alibi but in hindsight is just too convenient to swallow.
I think Kocourek owed Peterson for covering his ass at one point while he ( Kocourek) was sheriff, and once Peterson took over the mantle, Peterson collected on that favor.
I think when you look at Kocourek's interviews, he has the eyes and look of a killer.
[–]Shamrockholmes9 7 points 23 days ago
I agree with you. One other thing I wish there was more info about was the circumstances around the death of "The Pencil" days before SA's trial began. I would add him to your short list of being involved, and the timing of his death isn't just another coincidence, imo.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties 7 points 23 days ago
The "pencil" died of a heart attack shortly after finding out that the blood vial evidence was going to be allowed in trial. As much as we know about their swab and barrel swapping IDK why we wouldn't completely believe that they did use the vial that has 1.5 ml missing out of it and then swapped the swabs w/ the other blood that was swabbed out of his trailer legimately. 5ml should be missing out of the vial due to the testing when he got out of prison in 03. The other 1 ml should NOT be missing from it. The blood doesn't just disappear. I find it really quite another coincidence that an officer drops dead of a heart attack soon after finding that the vial that KK fought for months to keep out of court was going to be allowed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/6sljlk/ask_yourself_who/
Motive for Tunnel Vision (self.TickTockManitowoc)
ReplyDeleteby ThackerLaceyDeJaynes
The case against Avery started in 1984 with the alleged activities regarding Sandra Morris.
Report
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Report-on-Avery-Indecent-Exposure-1984.pdf
Officers went so far as to ride along with Morris to try to catch Avery in the act, with no luck.
I cannot imagine MTSO's feelings toward Avery after these alleged incidents. Sandra was married to a deputy and best friend's with another.
January 1985 is when Steven runs Sandra off the road.
Report
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/S-Morris-Incident.pdf
Dumb act? Sure. I do believe this is where the active hostility first started in regard to MTSO and Steven Avery.
Several months later, there is another report against Steven.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Avery-Disorderly-Conduct-1985.pdf
Nothing major and I cannot find any reference to if any charges were actually filed against Avery.
In July of 1985, PB was attacked. We all know the story. He was factually innocent of the crime. I will come back to this in a minute.
Interestingly, the next day, he becomes a suspect in a kidnapping and rape because of his arrest on 7/29/1985.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Report-on-Avery-as-Suspect-in-Abduction-1985.pdf
So, now, not only MTSO has portrayed him as a rapist but other jurisdictions believe it to be true. See where I am going with this?
Copy of Civil Complaint of Lawsuit:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/1-Civil-Complaint.pdf
Some interesting points:
Avery spent 18 YEARS incarcerated for a crime he did not commit.
MTSO, specifically Koucourek & Vogel should have known that Allen was the perpetrator.
Thomas Bergner from the City of Manitowoc PD informed Koucourek that he thought Allen was the culprit. He was summarily dismissed.
Vogel's staff told him that they thought Allen was the culprit. They were also summarily dismissed.
Exculpatory evidence pointing to Allen was requested by original trial counsel and not provided.
Avery was exonerated by DNA evidence in the rape of PB.
Now, many people may say that by the time he was released in 2003 that corruption was long gone from MTSO and the DA's office. There is something severely missing from that logic.
CONTINUED...
Kenneth Petersen was the arresting officer in 1985. The hatred, disgust and corruption that permeated the 1985 case was not lost upon Petersen. He pretty much says as much in his pre-trial testimony in the 2005 case by revealing that he wasn't exactly sure Avery was innocent of the rape. Page 407 from:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Full-Pre-Trial-and-Post-Trial-Motion-Hearing-Transcripts-combined.pdf
Q. You participated after the arrest of Mr. Avery, personally, in that prosecution, as a witness in that trial?
A. Yes.
Q. Later, in 2003 to be specific, the claim that Mr. Avery had made in 1985, that he was innocent of those crimes, proved to be true?
A. Possibly.
A few questions later:
Q. Now, when you say possibly, is there any question in your mind that Gregory Allen was identified by DNA evidence as the sole attacker of the woman at issue on the beach in 1985?
A. Yes, I would have doubts.
WOW
The Sheriff of Manitowoc County is doubting Avery is innocent and that DNA evidence tested at WSCL is not accurate. Strange position.
Petersen was in charge of MTSO. If he doubted Avery's innocence, how far down do you think that seed went into the minds of officers? OR neighboring Law Enforcement
Coupled with the lawsuit against the County (Yes, the entire County was being sued despite claims it was not), Vogel and former Sheriff Koucourek, it doesn't take a genius to realize that MTSO felt extreme pressure.
When TH disappeared, there was a huge motive for Tunnel Vision. While MTSO wasn't in charge of the investigation...they were there at every twist and turn.
MTSO found or were present during evidence collection of:
Rav4 (first officer on scene was MTSO)
Key
Bones
Bullet
So, when someone asks the question if MTSO really had the motive, means, and opportunity for the case to go exactly how they wanted it to....the answer is yes.
Yes they did.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7wfsjt/motive_for_tunnel_vision/
[–]tuckerm33
ReplyDeleteYou ever hear of the hero syndrome?
"The hero syndrome is a phenomenon affecting people who seek heroism or recognition, usually by creating a desperate situation which they can resolve. This can include unlawful acts, such as arson. The phenomenon has been noted to affect civil servants, such as firefighters, nurses, police officers, and security guards."
Imagine being a cop in a county so vast and sparsely populated. How many heroic events happen naturally in order to get promotions, pay raises and recognition awards for outstanding service?
What can one do to advance their career and qualify for the Sheriff's job? They must achieve some sort of notoriety in order to stand out and add to the their resume.
How about staging rapes and murders of prominent town folk every so often and pinning it on the undesirable residents?
It's instant hero status. Not only did you avenge the crime of a prominent local citizen, but you also successfully solved the crime and brought the bad guy to justice.
It's amazing how two counties come together to find every piece of evidence needed to solve the murder of TH so quickly and yet they can't seem to get some paint chips tested how many years later to try to solve R. Hos.'s hit and run case.
It's simple. They stage the evidence for the ones they want "solved" and hide evidence for the ones they don't. It's easy to solve a case when you control the evidence and the alleged crime scene.
Manitowoc population by year 33,430 in 1970 32,547 in 1980 32,644 in 1990 34,133 in 2000 33,804 in 2005 33,736 in 2010 33,102 in 2014 32,936 in 2016
From 1970 to 1990, Manitowoc population declined by 1,000 people for that 20 year span. It declined from 1970 to about 1982 when it started to go back up slowly and it would take another ten years, around 1992, 1993 to return to it's 1970 population.
In 2000, it started a decline again and as of 2014 it is below its 1970 population.
Comically, even though it has never seen the likes of any numbers above the middle 34k mark, the official city website in 2013 projected that by 2020, the population would be 37,100.
Now that's another example of simple blatant lies of Manitowoc officials isn't it? Predicting some huge population boom with zero historical data to support it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7xeyba/the_murder_case_of_mary_glander_how_marvin_and/
Law enforcement and attorneys involved with Teresa Halbach case - how bad could they be? self.MakingaMurderer
ReplyDeleteby seekingtruthforgood
Included are various links to historical depictions and behaviors of some of the officers and attorneys involved in the Teresa Halbach investigation.
For me the biggest takeaway is not absolute certainty about whether any of these men and women committed wrongdoings in the handling of the cases against Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey, it's whether I am convinced they were capable of it.
We should never have to question whether law enforcement and state prosecutors are the good guys, yet, in Avery's case, there are demonstrations of ethical, moral and legal violations/misconduct all over the place...
ETA: typo's, clarifications - I missed one point I meant to make: none of the below proves these guys collectively took part in framing Avery or proves they committed misconduct during his case. But, in a case such as Steven Avery's (in which we see discrepancies, errors, omissions, signs of tampering, investigative procedures that do not align with those conducted by other law enforcement personnel, etc.,) the character and behavior of those running the investigation and/or being in possession of the evidence, and/or being able to influence the evidence becomes rather significant... the burden of proof, during the original trial was on state. So, were these people capable of cheating? Time will tell.
Wendy Baldwin (Schmitz) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7-UXwOux4A
Jennifer Bass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7-UXwOux4A
Tom Kocourek/Denis Vogel
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Avery-Civil-Suit-Docket-Summary.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/1-Civil-Complaint.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/49-Motion-to-Intervene-State-Farm.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/50-Brief-in-Support-of-Motion-to-Intervene.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/52-Intervenor-Complaint-State-Farm.pdf
Kocourek/Kenneth Petersen/Colborn/Kusche
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H31h88NVYqQ
Kenneth Petersen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK6CFVaA9og
Ken Kratz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3xzEiiExY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jibf_iKD3_E
Len Kaschinsky
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/02/01/fox-crossing-municipal-judge-len-kachinsky-faces-harassment-allegations/1075562001/
https://heavy.com/news/2016/08/len-kachinsky-brendan-dassey-lawyer-conviction-overturned-steven-avery-making-a-murderer/
https://tmzvod-a.akamaihd.net/tmz/2016-01/05/0_s4dkwehv_0_yinu391k_2.mp4
Dave Remiker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jibf_iKD3_E
ETA - Wisconsin Crime Lab
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/probe-of-crime-lab-requested-analysts-faulty-work-cited/article_5e461ea6-ca3d-5429-81cd-81e6c0cce9e3.html
CONTINUED...
[–]seekingtruthforgood[S]
ReplyDeleteFor Dassey’s computer, I wasn’t referring to the computer itself; rather, I am referring to Zellner’s citation of a Brady violation, with an affidavit from Jerry Buting which states the CD and specific report of the findings were not turned over to the defense and were not clear in the disclosure letter sent to the defense from Kratz. Whether she prevails on that Brady, I don’t know, but, I do believe the circumstances surrounding this evidence are worthy of consideration by the courts.
As for the RAV reports, I guess what strikes me as most problematic for Colborn is that this witness has fairly specific recall of seeing and talking to Colborn at Cenex… if his statement comes into play, I imagine that might be verifiable… we’ll have to see.
In terms of the dayplanner, well, this is where I think Zellner has one of her strongest arguments and which could be quite problematic for the state. It’s not just that Denise states Teresa told her she was driving, it’s that Teresa had conversations with two people, one claiming she said she was driving, and another claiming she said she could meet with him but within the next 30 minutes - yet, her residence was just a bit more than an hour away, and she made those calls while the state claimed she was home, from which it is then inferred her home tower is 21112.
But, this is not a claim that can’t be refuted by the state, right? Surely, the state would have records to prove she was home, right? They can prove this by: 1. Producing records from the tower owner establishing 21112 is the sector that services her home or 2. Producing landline records which establish she and Angela spoke on Teresa’s landline (which Kratz also claimed during trial.) But, if they had those records, they would have already been turned over to the defense and in Zellner's possession... right?
So, aside from the fact that it feels like a deep dive down a rabbit hole for us, Zellner would not make this misstep if records had been turned over to the defense for her landline calls and/or verification of the cell tower locations, as discussed btw, and confirmed, as having been obtained by Dedering (during Wiegert and Remiker telephone conversation.)
So, in my opinion, Zellner has them backed into a bit of a corner on this, and I also believe this matter of the two witness accounts is worthy of consideration by the courts.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/7ynw3c/law_enforcement_and_attorneys_involved_with/
CONTINUED...
[–]seekingtruthforgood[S]
ReplyDeleteYes... I also didn't add Fassbender's "place her in the garage" statement nor Culhane's seemingly willingness to do so as demonstrated by her "note to self" on the field report... :)
Waiting for a bit more substance to generate from Colborn's missteps... I have no doubt his call to dispatch will be verified... right down to the time and date...
[–]seekingtruthforgood[S]
I did just clarify that above... I didn't realize a user didn't understand the relationship to Kocourek and Vogel as being Avery's stated motive for framing him on the Halbach case. You clearly understood it, but I inadvertently took it for granted that everyone on this sub was familiar enough with the case to already know the relationship.
[–]seekingtruthforgood[S]
Hmm... where would one formulate an adverse opinion on Vogel and Kocourek?
It was clear, he said, that “it went way beyond a mistake or over-zealousness on the part of the police. The former DA [Denis Vogel] and former sheriff [Tom Kocourek] either knew he didn’t do it within a few days of arresting him, or they should have known, but recklessly disregarded the evidence. It was pretty ugly.”
Yet, Mr Griesbach insists, the corrupted criminal justice culture of Manitowoc County has “completely flipped around” since. A “different era started shortly before Avery was exonerated in 2003. People in the police department now are disgusted by what Vogel and Koucerek did.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/steve-avery-making-a-murderer-turned-me-into-public-enemy-number-one-says-wisconsin-official-a6856546.html
[–]seekingtruthforgood[S]
My post speaks to their professional/personal ethics/character (lack thereof.) If you think their conduct doesn't warrant a second look, well, ok, but, I 100% disagree. The collective conduct of these men and women is incredibly relevant being they have direct influence over people's lives. And, why on earth would one ever try to argue that Len got Brendan the best deal possible? To say so goes against not only public opinion but the opinion of the courts, this being one glaring example:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3011723-Dassey-Decision.html
[–]loveofnature
ReplyDeleteThis is from the LE Reports
GEORGE B. ZIPPERER DOB 05/16/40 4433 CTH B Manitowoc, WI
Source: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=17
This is from the Wisconsin Highway website it says:
CTH-xx County Trunk Highway, where xx is any combination of one to three letters. Sometimes written elsewhere as "County Trunk xx", "County Highway xx", "Highway xx" or "County xx". Also, the designation itself is never placed in quotes, as seems to be popular in some places and media, as there is no actual need or use for the quotation marks.
Source:http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/definitions.html
By this information CTH B in the LE report is the same as County Trunk B
Edit to add from Trial Transcript of JZ
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Zipperer. The questions
22 that I have for you relate to incidents that
23 occurred on the 31st of October of last year,
24 2005. Let me first ask you, Mrs. Zipperer, where
25 do you live?
129
1 A. 4433 County Trunk B in Manitowoc.
Source: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=128
This is how I believe the Zipperer give their address.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4js6s8/checkaduhid/
Avery's Before or After the Zipperer's? by [deleted] in MakingaMurderer
ReplyDelete[–]loveofnature 4 points 1 year ago*
I have just done some extensive research and you will find that their address is officially a Trunk according to several Government websites and the CASO investigative report.
First we have to understand what CTH stands for. According to this Wisconsin website it means County Trunk Highway .
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/definitions.html
Then when you look at the Tax Record Detail site of Manitowoc County. His property is 4433 CTH B
http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/taxquery/final_process2.asp?IDValue=00910500600300&BackType=1
Now lets go to the investigative report they have it listed on page 17 as 4433 CTH B
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=17
When you go to this site you will see that Mr Zipperer owns 4 properties. http://webmap2.manitowoc-county.com/EasyAccess/
You will have to hit accept. In the Parcel Search box change the Search Layer Field to owner name then type his name in. You will see that 4 properties will show up scroll down and you will see in all his mail address it does not mention Road. The first one say 4433 County B. The second one says 4433 CTY Trunk B. The Third one which is the property in question states both in the mailing and site address is 4433 CTH B. The Fourth one states 4433 CTH B.
Here is an image showing the search results showing all properties own by George Zipperer and his mailing address.
http://imgur.com/XfBrI3q
Finally an official street map from Manitowoc http://www.manitowoc.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/1624
Look at 19G, 19F to 17G, 17F This is the area in which the Zipperers live, near the Wisconsin State Trunk Highway (STH) 310. This map has it designated as CTH B.
Here is an image of it. http://imgur.com/j5hpPCp
So from all this I have to conclude that the address is correct and this "road" is officially known as a Trunk.
Just a note, I am neither in the guilty or innocent camp, just seeking the truth unbiasedly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4hutyj/averys_before_or_after_the_zipperers/d2sqjsd/
Avery’s civil suit was filed before the phone call was discovered; the incident came to light during the gathering of documents – and depositions investigating that phone call had just started in late 2005 – 3 weeks before Halbach’s murder.
ReplyDeleteFollowing the remaining depositions, notification of the DOJ, and any subsequent investigation, any/all of Colborn, Lenk, Petersen, Kusche, Rohrer, etc. could have been added as additional parties to the ongoing civil suit through the joinder process.
In the video-tape depositions (taken just 1-3 weeks before Hallbach’s murder):
Oct.11: Lt. Lenk testifies under oath that he prepared his statement after meeting with then-Sheriff Petersen, and in it he states, “Sgt. Colborn said he was later informed that the case was already solved and the right person was arrested.” His statement makes no mention of Gregory Allen, Steven Avery, Peggy Beertsen, ex-Sheriff Tom Kocourek, or whoever Colborn allegedly informed about the phone call or who told him that the case was solved.
Oct.13: Sgt. Colborn testifies under oath that he doesn’t recall telling anyone about the phone call except Lenk and Sheriff Petersen (and, again, his statement does not mention Allen, Avery, Beertsen, or any other names).
Oct.13: Sheriff Petersen testifies under oath that he has never seen either Lenk’s or Colborn’s statements about the phone call before.
Oct.26: Chief Deputy Kusche testifies under oath that Colborn told him that Colborn told ex-Sheriff Tom Kocourek that an officer from Brown County told him that Allen, and not Avery, might have actually committed the Beertsen assault.
So from the very start of the investigation into the incident, there were conflicting stories.
Just 5 days after Kusche’s deposition contradicting Colborn and Lenk’s – and 10 days before ex-Sheriff Kocourek was scheduled to be deposed – Halbach was murdered.
Colborn testified in his 2005 deposition that he doesn’t recall telling anyone about the phone call except Lenk and current-Sheriff Petersen. But Kusche is deposed as stating (in the Jones memo) that Colborn told ex-Sheriff Tom Kocourek about it, and Kusche claims that he heard that from Colborn himself.
If you really want to get your blood boiling again, read the DOJ review into Avery’s wrongful conviction put out by the Attorney General in Dec. 2003:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5691be1b25981daa98f417c8/t/56932cf3dc5cb46e49ddea08/1452485876920/DOJ+-+2003+Steve+Avery+Review+Memo.pdf
There is just so much obvious lying and covering-up by then-Sheriff Kocourek it’s mind boggling.
BTW, State Farm Insurance had filed a motion to deny coverage in the civil lawsuit to Kocourek. Here is the document:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5691be1b25981daa98f417c8/t/569850c64bf118ad2a6276d8/1452822727114/state+farm+letter+2.pdf
And as much as I really don’t want to believe that cops would actually commit premeditated murder, I still find Halbach’s disappearance and murder just a week before Kocourek himself – the main force behind Steven’s wrongful conviction and continued incarceration – to be coincidental almost beyond belief.
http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2015/12/who-killed-teresa-halbach-if-it-wasnt-steven-avery.html
Given that in his 2005 deposition, he told Glynn that he only remembered mentioning it to Lenk and to Kocourek, we at least believe that the “first time” that he mentioned it to Lenk was in 2003, which could mean that he and Kocourek “shared the secret” for 8 years. I just pictured a second possibility: That maybe Lenk had known about it for many or all of those 8 years, because he had been informed prior to 2003 by either Colborn and/or Kocourek. But I might have missed some deposition answers that clearly indicated that he didn’t tell Lenk until 2003. And, of course, Kusche claims that he heard it from Colborn, although Colborn never mentioned that, and that might indicate that Colborn lied during the deposition.
ReplyDeleteFinally, I found myself asking the following: If Kocourek told Colborn, “Don’t worry about this Andy; I’ll take it from here. We have our man.”, then maybe Colborn “dropped it” because he might have wanted to “do the right thing”, but his fear to go behind his boss’ back trumped his ethical desire to do the right thing. But either way, if they both knew about it, and if neither produced a report, I woud certainly have to think that they would be held liable for serious misconduct, especially in this case.
When Brown County called and Colborn answered, if Colborn reconnected the call to his superior, or to Kocourek, or whomever — someone of higher rank than Colborn — would Colborn be responsible for writing a report and opening up a new case file? That is pretty much what I was trying to get at, and I honestly don’t know who. I certainly felt that a report should have been written. I just thought that if Colborn passed the call “up the chain” that maybe the detective who would eventually handle the call might be the person to write the report. And now I am wondering if you are saying that he would immediately open a new case also.
I’m stating the obvious when I say that way too many people absolutely *needed* for Steven Avery to go away, and all of them (all the ones that I know of, from the documentary) worked for the Manitowoc Sheriff’s Department:
– Kocourek
– Kuche
– Peterson
– Lenk
– Colborn
– Judy Dvorak
Then there were those who simply *wanted* Avery to go away:
-Tadych
– Pagel
– Kratz
– Sandra Morris (and probably her husband)
That’s a hell of a lot of enemies, especially given that so many of them worked for the Manitowoc Sheriff’s Department.
If brighter minds than mine (e.g. Butel and Strang) believe deep down that the Sheriff didn’t investigate everyone that they should have investigated, then this is not only a crime against Steven Avery; it’s also a horrific injustice to Teresa Halbach and her family.
If Steven Avery did not murder Teresa Halbach, and if the Sheriff didn’t follow all leads, it seems to me that it’s too late to right that wrong. A new scientific technique might yet come along to prove that Steven Avery was framed, but there is so little that can happen now or in the future that could actually demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt who it was that killed Teresa Halbach. Someone would have to come forward with something like an audio tape, where the perpetrator is laying out exactly how he killed her, and his “confession” would have to reveal evidence that has been kept secret and is only known to the “authorities”.
http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2015/12/who-killed-teresa-halbach-if-it-wasnt-steven-avery.html
Following the depositions of Lt. James Lenk, Sgt Andrew Colborn and Chief Deputy Gene Kusche in the lawsuit Steven Avery filed against Manitowoc County they knew that they personally could be held liable for what happened to Avery. They also knew that if Avery won the case that the insurance agencies would not cover them or the county in the lawsuit. Therefore everything that they held dear their jobs, their pensions, even their own savings were on the line.
ReplyDeleteThis put them in a category very similar to Manitowoc County Sheriff Ken Peterson. Along with the fact that all of these men worked together on a daily basis, knew each other, trusted each other and more importantly all four could make other people in the department do what they wanted them to do without bringing them into the conspiracy.
I believe that after they talked following their dispositions they made an agreement to eliminate Steven Avery and thus end his lawsuit. $36 million and their own careers and futures would be a lot less than many people have been killed or set up.
Begin by looking at the statement that Ken Peterson made on FOX11. Look at the words he chose to use.
“If we wanted to, um eliminate Steve, it would’ve been a whole lot easier to eliminate Steve than it would be to frame Steve. Hell, but, if we wanted him out of the picture, like in prison, or if you wanted him killed, you know, it would’ve been much easier just to kill him.”
These isn’t an idle conversation, I believe what he is doing is a forensic counter measure. That is tell the public exactly what you but in a way to make you the public think it’s not logical and thus exclude it as a possibility. He even pulled a long known trick by getting the media to tell his story for him.
Peterson used the “would’ve” contraction which most people use as to show what they actually have done. Instead of the “could be” notion that keeps it in the realm of theoretical only. We as people have actually no idea what is easier than what unless we have actually had those choices.
Peterson, Kusche, Lenk and Colburn knew that their time was running out as the dispositions of Denis Vogel and Thomas Kocourek the named defendants of the civil case were about to occur. Something would have to happen soon after Kushce’s October 26th deposition to derail the case. Into their lap dropped a missing person who just happened to have been to see Steven Avery, Teresa Halbach.
I believe that Teresa’s death was going to occur that day whether or not she saw Steven Avery; this is because I don’t believe he had anything to do with her death. I further believe that at some point the Halbach family has come to this understanding as well and that would explain why they dropped the much less strenuous civil lawsuit against Steven Avery and Brandan Dassey. Steven would be in line to inherit 1/3 of the Avery Salvage Yard and as long he was in line for that inheritance then he would have a financial payday coming.
https://justanothersouthernsocialist.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/the-5-people-it-took-to-frame-steven-avery/