Why Did Fassbender Collect Seven Pairs of Panties from Teresa Halbach's Residence?

Panties and insulated boots, first in COC on 11/06/05. Mrs Zip corrected herself from boots to shoes at trial: "She was wearing a dark jacket, waist length. I think she had jeans and she had brown hiking boots. Hiking shoes, not boots. They were shoes."
​https://t.co/32STOSBzoS

— Lick The Knife (@RenyRoha) May 17, 2019

How did panties and boots (found in trunk hit on by dogs on Nov 6) end up with envelopes, butts, 7 more pairs of panties (collected 11/14) AND the dispatch call (11/16)?

By seekingtruthforgood, TickTockManitowoc

November 24, 2017

In revisiting an older subject, I was reminded of the below evidence logged at CASO. Maybe someone knows how it was possible that panties and boots recovered from the trunk of a Toyota on November 6 were logged with evidence collected 8-10 days later between November 14-16. Not only were they logged together, per the ledger id's, they were tagged within the same series of evidence numbers... how is that possible?

05-221 - #8736 (Two envelopes and butts) collected 11/14

05-222 - #'s 8737 and 8738 (Panties and boots) collected 11/6

05-220 - #'s 8046-8053 (Panties from TH's home) collected 11/14

05-223 #8739 (Cassette tape of recorded dispatch call, which I believe is the PS call) collected 11/16

Wow, great find!! I don’t know how to explain it either, but sure did seem like they were keeping evidence collected OUT to possibly USE somewhere else vs turning it over. Maybe those purple panties Zellner wants will prove their planting and why she’s asked for them. How many panties are in evidence per their logs. Should match reports of what was collected but I’ll bet you it doesn’t. Remember 7 pairs + the purple panties from the truck. - 7-pairs-of-panties, Reddit, November 24, 2017

Plus this pair... makes 9... it's really weird these panties end up in the middle of Halbach's items which were sent to the lab supposedly to get her DNA. - seekingtruthforgood, Reddit, November 24, 2017

Starting on page 15 of Kathleen Zellner's motion for post-conviction scientific testing, she lists items for "new testing for sources of DNA" and items for "new DNA testing." On page 22, she requests new DNA testing on a pair of women's purple thong panties recovered from the white trailer near the Mercury station wagon where Teresa's license plates were found:

"Item CV - a pair of women's purple thong panties recovered from the white trailer near the Mercury station wagon where the victim's license plates were found. Similar thong panties were recovered from the victim's residence (items CM, CN and CO). Mr. Avery is requesting to perform new and approved DNA testing on these panties to determine if they belonged to the victim and if they contain a male DNA profile."

Per Calumet County Sgt. Bill Tyson, on November 14, 2005, after Steven Avery was charged with Teresa Halbach's murder, he and DCI Special Agent Tom Fassbender went to Teresa's residence and collected seven pairs of her panties in various colors, some clean pairs from her dresser and some dirty pairs from her laundry (page 262 of CASO file). One of the pairs collected from Teresa's dirty clothes hamper was "light colored purple."

On Monday, 11/14/05, I (sgt. BILL TYSON of the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT) met with DCI Special Agent TOM FASSBENDER at the sheriff s department. Inv. FASSBENDER asked me if I would be willing to go with him to TERESA HALBACH's residence to collect some clothing of hers for DNA purposes. Special Agent FASSBENDER stated he did get permission from TERESA's parents to go to the house and look for articles of clothing that would have her DNA on it. I informed Special Agent FASSBENDER I would do so.

Upon our arrival at the residence, RYAN HILLEGAS met us. RYAN stated he was a close friend of TERESA HALBACH and he was temporarily staying at TERESA's residence. Special Agent FASSBENDER informed him we were there to collect articles of clothing that would have traces of DNA on it. RYAN stated we were welcome into the residence and he did show us TERESA's bedroom. Upon entering the bedroom, we were looking for a clothes hamper that would have dirty clothing. RYAN pointed to a plastic bag and said TERESA would sometimes pack up her dirty clothing in the plastic bag and take the dirty laundry over to her mom's residence for cleaning. Upon looking through the plastic bag, we did locate several woman's panties in the bag. Photographs were taken of the clothing. At 1630 hours, I did collect a brown colored pair of woman's panties from the plastic bag. At 1634 hours, I did collect a light blue colored pair of woman's panties, which were located inside the dresser in TERESA's bedroom.

At 1635 hours, I did collect a black and pink striped pair of woman's panties from inside the dresser of TERESA's bedroom. At 1636 hours, I did collect a red and black colored pair of woman's panties from the dresser in TERESA's bedroom. We noticed eyeglasses setting on the nightstand next to the bed and RYAN stated the glasses did belong to TERESA. At 1638 hours, I did collect the glasses. We asked RYAN if there were any other locations in the residence where TERESA would have clothing and he led us to the bathroom. RYAN pointed to a clothes hamper and stated the clothes hamper did belong to TERESA and only her clothes would be in that hamper. RYAN stated the clothes in the hamper were definitely dirty clothing. At 1642 hours, I did collect a pink colored pair of woman's panties from the clothes hamper. At 1643 hours, I did collect a black colored pair of woman's panties from the clothes hamper from the bathroom.

At 1644 hours, I did collect a light colored purple pair of woman's panties from the clothes hamper. These items were separately packaged and photographed prior to collection.

The items collected were transported back to the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT and placed in a secured locker in the evidence room.

Sgt. Bill Tyson Calumet Co. Sheriff s Dept. BT,6dS

Other than planting evidence at Avery's, why would Fassy need so many pairs of Teresa's panties, some clean and some dirty, in various colors?

There are two valid theories presented by missingtrugh and foghaze at Reddit.

[–] missingtruth

In Zellner's motion, Exhibit D is a document that is a report from 11/7 about a bloodhound named Loof who had a very intense track to the Kuss Road cul-de-sac. This is probably the activity we see in the Kuss Road pics.

Now, Loof would be tracking Teresa's unique, individual scent. Bloodhound tracking is reliable enough that it is admissible and has been used in Court. KZ is proving that TH was there. I have a feeling Luminol has been used in these areas and is the crime scene.

She uses exhibit D when referencing that her vehicle was moved from the Radandt Quarry to the Avery Property using the conveyor road. 

There were both types of dogs on the scene (bloodhound and cadaver). The cadaver dogs hit on the RAV. But there were other teams of standard search and rescue dogs as well on November 5th and 6th:

• Wendy Baldwin, 11/5, after 4pm, page 69 - Great Lakes Search and Rescue dogs
• Tyson, 11/5, around 5pm, finished at 7pm, page 78 - again Great Lakes, four handlers with four dogs
• Kucharski, 11/5, time unknown, but afternoon, page 85 - the cadaver dog hits at the conveyor belt at the south of the property and in the weeds at the NORTHWEST CORNER OF THE LOT (toward the deer camp)
• Dedering, 11/5, afternoon, page 88 - dogs Trace and Brutus, NO hit near the crusher (Brutus is a HUMAN remains/blood dog)
• Wendy B, 11/6, morning, page 109 - Southwest corner of pond, cadaver dog Brutus hits on a silver station wagon where a bloody rag was found; tan Honda with blood on it (mentions Bowe)
• Bowe, 11/6, morning, page 110 - Brutus hits on 4-door Toyota (they can't get their car makes right I guess) with women's panties and camouflage boots that are taken into evidence and given to Det. Nicholas
• Tenor, 11/6, afternoon, page 123 - FIVE search and rescue and cadaver dogs in quarry EAST of Avery Road, Three out of five dogs hit on a pile of pink and red stuff (I'm thinking this Michel's Material quarry, which is NORTHeast of the salvage yard, right next to Avery ROAD)
• Dedering, 11/6, 5.40pm, page 125 - they take a dog to search an area where a skid-steer had been seen working, but there is no indication of what sort of dog or what the results were.

Loof is/was a bloodhound used for odor specific identifying. Brutus is/was a cadaver dog used for locating human remains, amongst other things. Loof is/was not a cadaver dog.

Cadaver dogs such as Brutus "alert" on the smell of human decompostion, such as skin, blood, etc. However, bloodhounds such as Loof are trained to "alert" on the specific scent of a person they are tracking. Bloodhounds will track long distances. Loof, the bloodhound, intensely tracked Teresa's scent at the Kuss Road Cul-de-sac. That's not indicative of a cadaver dog's hit.

A cadaver dog alerted inside Avery's trailer on November 5th or 6th, meaning it alerted to human decomposition, which includes blood. Avery bled inside his trailer after cutting his finger loading tin onto a flatbed (the exact date when this occurred is unknown, but Avery told a reporter he reopened the cut on November 5th when installing tin in Crivitz). He left his home around 6 a.m. on November 5th for Crivitz and never returned home, so he bled in his trailer and Grand Am prior to November 5th. Fresh blood stains from Avery were found in his Grand Am, which he drove daily to and from the salvage yard office and elsewhere, and which he drove to Crivitz the morning of November 5th. Avery's blood was collected on November 5th or 6th from both of the exterior door frames to his trailer, as well as from the bathroom sink and the bathroom floor.

If a bloodhound alerted to Teresa's scent near Barb Janda's minivan for sale, in Avery's trailer, or in Avery's garage, this was not presented at trial or recorded in a CASO report. The only mention  by CASO of a bloodhound tracking Teresa's scent was a bloodhound named Loof on November 7th (page 138).

JANUARY 2017 UPDATE:

John Ferak wrote on January 15, 2017: "The wooded area, near the Radandt quarry, drew heightened interest from one of the bloodhounds following the scent of Halbach's shoes and also from one of the police cadaver dogs."

Nexious wrote on January 16, 2017 at Reddit: "Ferak advised me that this information about using one of her shoes for a scent comes straight from a State Crime Lab document written by John Ertl. He does have access to documents that we still do not, which is to be expected given his investigative position (SkippTopp was denied the request by DCI and State Crime Lab last May)."

Therefore, the dirty underwear taken from Teresa's home were not used for scent tracking. So why were they taken and what were they used for? DNA planting?

[–]foghaze

Holy cow. It's all making sense to me. I remember reading Brendan Dassey's confession and they kept asking him about panties! Now I get it! They wanted him to say he or Steven Avery kept panties so they could PLANT that too! I was wondering why Liegert and Factbender was pressuring him to say that. Good thing he didn't because I bet Teresa Halbach's panties would have turned up on Avery's property.

[–]Thomjones

Where was her roommate btw?? Ryan Hillegas just chillin and shit. Maybe being a big perv. (Only saying that because a perv like me would think like that). And...so...many panties. I guess what, the toothbrush and her mouth all over that can of cherry coke in her car wasn't enough? I guess the pap smear from her doctor that they actually compared DNA to wasn't compelling enough?

[–]bashdotexe

What I'd like to know is out of all the underwear collected in Tyson's report how many of them are still in evidence?

[–]renaecharles

They took seven, TURNED IN THREE. I read the CASO reports looking for those underpants for a loooong time. He notates collecting seven, but he only turns over three for evidence safekeeping. Four pairs have been MIA since the beginning.

[–] foghaze

Note: This is a repost from the other Sub. I see they are going back and actually deleting many posts so I wanted to get posts I made out so they are not lost forever. Some of these took a lot of time. I cannot believe they are actually deleting our work!

Fassbender and Tyson go to TH to get dirty clothes. RH shows them where to find them. They gather several pairs of Teresa's dirty panties as "Evidence". After I read this I remembered reading Dassey's interrogation and Factbender and Liegert kept asking him about TH panties on numerous occasions. I was wondering why they kept asking him this over and over. There was a certain rhythm to their questioning and I could tell when they were trying to get Brendan to say something that they wanted him to say but the panties never made any sense. At the time I was analyzing his interrogation the CASO report had not been released and I kept thinking something was going on regarding panties. Now I know exactly what they were up to. Take it how you want but seems to me they were trying to get him to say he or Avery had taken TH panties so they could plant them. It seemed pretty obvious to me at least.

They asked him about the panties on 7 different occasions and, within those, most were a couple of times; so, in all, 13 times. After seeing this I don't see how it is possible for people to not see exactly what they were doing.

Here are all the screenshots.

[–]amileah

Reading this I have so many emotions:

1. Anger - how in the world does RH have ANY authority to welcome officers to search TH & SB's residence? I understand that TH's parents already gave permission, but somehow I envision the officers entry like RH welcoming guests to a dinner party. "Sure officers come on in & feel comfortable looking through Teresa's panty collection. I'll lead the way since I already know where everything is..."
2. Sympathy (& a little embarrassment for TH) - could you imagine the world being privy to your dirty panty collection? Although the items likely had important biological/DNA evidence, it makes my heart sink a little knowing that TH's "dirty laundry" is being exposed to the world. Literally.
3. Curiousity - what happened to all of the panties that were collected? Did they perform any DNA tests on the panties to determine any other party's DNA &/or mixed DNA. We know that she was sexually active.

I'll stop there, but for some reason this post really got to me emotionally.

[–]FoxyMcJ
 

What I wonder is why, if they have her hair, her toothbrush and her vibrator do they need to take MULTIPLE pairs of both clean and dirty underwear?

It makes me very emotional and angry as well that it was her Ex-BF that led them all to this, and was staying in her room 'keeping an eye on things'...seriously, though, wtf?

[–]foghaze  

What I wonder is why, if they have her hair, her toothbrush and her vibrator do they need to take MULTIPLE pairs of both clean and dirty underwear?

Because I think they wanted to plant panties. In one of BD's confessions I noticed they kept mentioning panties. From what it seemed like to me they were trying to get Brendan to say he or SA kept a pair as a trophy. A few months back when I was reading the confessions I kept wondering about this. Now it's all making sense. Had poor Brendan said YES to the panty question I'm sure they too would have shown up on Avery's property at some point.

[–]bythesword86

 

Wow, this just gave me chills...

[–]FoxyMcJ

 

Sadly, I think you are correct.

[–]Strikeout21

 

I think you might be right. The only other way taking this many panties would make sense is if they were hoping to catch the DNA of her sexual partners. That doesn't make sense though because they didn't collect DNA from any of them. Ugh, my head hurts.

[–]renaecharles

I believe most, if not all, of these reports were written well after the fact. Look at the key report... We did not touch it with dirty hands, clean gloves put on, no one else touched it, blah blah blah three paragraphs later, why so much emphasis on that? Because when the report was written it was already being scrutinized. I think they accidentally wrote the report for putting underwear into evidence in real time, with intent to do as they could with the other 4 pairs. After they couldn't do anything with them, they wrote up a clean little report about the collection. Problem is, seems they forgot to fix the evidence report (or couldn't fix it). The sheer volume says to me it could have simply been overlooked.

[–]renaecharles

 

They collected 3 pairs from the dresser, clean ones.

[–]ForeverRotts

what happened to all of the panties that were collected?

I think Fassbender has a thing for dirty panties. They collected a bunch of Jodi's as well. Or maybe Kratz wanted them. LOL

[–]belee86[S]
 

They found panties in the yard in the trunk of a car, so I imagine they were going to test to if the panties matched. Also, it might have been before they knew about the PAP smear.

[–]amileah

Good points. This was 11/14/05, when did they obtain the PAP smear slide (Item EF)?

[–]belee86

Not sure. I checked the trial and CASO and couldn't find a date. Probably after the 14th, though to get the smear sampled against the bones. The 14th seems to soon.

[–]UncleJihad

 

Sow how did they identify that the bones were Teresa's before? How did they sign a death certificate?

[–]sophiegirl14

Why did her parents let them go in there without them????? No NO No nobody is rifling through my daughter's stuff without me there. Sorry. Why was Ryan there? Guarding the evidence? Really weird. Also in trial testimony he states he is only a friend of Teresa's and doesn't go over there that much but then states he is over there once a week. Is it just me or is that a lot. I think it's a lot for someone you aren't dating. Also in another statement he makes he says he is sometimes spends the night 3 days in a row. This guy really contradicts himself.

There should have been a big freaking spotlight on RH from the beginning. Maybe there is now.

[–]Sacredtrust61

 

Good question about the parents. Not trying to attack them; I just don't understand it.

[–]sophiegirl14

 

I am not attacking them either. My response is because I am right now the mom of a 24-year-old daughter. If this had happened to her this is what I would have requested. DNA samples from all friends close to her and bf, ex bf, employer, family member etc.... Even my own.

I would have demanded alibis from all friends and especially ex's and current partners. I would have demanded to know when RH last saw her and what he was dropping off. Even if I had to find this out myself without the cops being there.

I would have demanded to know what the marks and scratches were from on RH hands and pinky. If they were from a fight, who was it with; if not a fight, then where did you get them cause it sure does look like they are marks where someone was trying to defend themselves or fighting back.

I would have taken the reigns for speaking out or had my husband or someone very close to me, brother, sister, pastor, doing this job. Not RH, SB, or MH.

I would have demanded to have her phone records and find out about that voicemails.

Nobody would have gotten in her stuff without me there. RH would have not been allowed to be there ever.

I would have never let RH run the investigation and the search. He would not have been allowed to have access to her computer or be on any part of the Avery property. Just saying. Young people today are really computer savvy and they can manipulate stuff.

I would have gotten in the car myself and backtracked where she started from and where she was supposedly that day. I would have looked everywhere MYSELF. Ask my husband, he would confirm this.

I would have created a timeline of where she was the weeks before this happened. Every appointment, every job, every party, every party she was supposed to go to, etc...... Did anyone notice she didn't show up to the Halloween party she was supposed to go to as a cowgirl.

I would have been a way better investigator than CASO and MTSO. I would have left no stone unturned.

I can't imagine sitting in trial, especially BD's trial, and none of the evidence matches the crime. I would have been like, what the hell.

I would have been mad as hell at KK for putting out all that stuff in a press conference. Really????

I would want the killer to be found for sure but I would want evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt with a story that confirms the evidence, not the BS story KK and team put out.

I would wonder why MTSO, not being involved in the investigation, had found all the key evidence and why they truly didn't back out of the investigation.

After all that, if the facts turned out it was SA, fine. If not, I will be still be looking for you. I will not stop till I found out who really did it so justice could be served up on a big fat platter. I don't care if I died in the process, but something is just way off on this whole freaking thing.

That killer would have rued the day he every messed with my kid.

[–]CommPilot72

 

Damn straight... excellent post; I couldn't agree with you more.

Let's put it this way, the stoic, passive presence of the Halbach family that I witnessed in MaM would have been the exact opposite of what you'd have seen from me were this my daughter. I'm not blaming them for anything nor am I criticizing them. I'm simply saying that my approach in that situation would be far more aggressive and involved.

And that little RH twerp wouldn't have come within a mile of my daughter's house without my presence, much less directing a police officiated panty raid. That's absolutely unforgivable.

[–]amileah

Absolutely! Fantastic description. I would be right there with you like a mamma bear. Especially at the beginning of the missing persons case - I predict that I would do ANYTHING to locate my daughter. Thankfully, I have never been in the same situation that the Halbachs were, but trying to put myself in that position, I will admit that I would likely break laws, potentially ruin evidence, etc. I would be unstoppable. I know it's not the same situation, but I have literally gone a little 'psycho' whenever either of my girls got out of my sight in public. There was a not-so-pretty situation when my 5-year-old daughter convinced a lifeguard to let her go on a lazy river ride at a water park with a family. That 'family' was not our family; they were strangers! I lost my mind, composure, & ability to speak without curse words.

Again, I have no idea what the Halbach family has endured, but I don't think that I would be sitting around going through scrapbooks while the news was filming me knowing that my daughter was missing. Your questioning of the family's actions is exactly my perception of them during that crucial time period. I really mean no disrespect to TH's family, but their reactions were certainly puzzling to me.

[–]TotieCapote
 

ALL OF THIS! Yes. I'd want to be notified and involved on every aspect. Under NO circumstances would the ex-BF (even if I totally adored him) be leading the search.

This whole entire ordeal is f'd up from the get-go.

[–]OpenMind4U

 

This what every parent should, must do!!! Ryan Ferguson's father was/is like you!!! Bravo for your feelings, beliefs and post!!!!

[–]sophiegirl14

 

Thank you. I'm just a mom that cares about her daughter. My daughter, husband and family are the most important thing in my life, that's all.

[–]SilkyBeesKnees

Exactly this, right??? The behaviour of her parents was peculiar.

[–]Jmystery1

Well cops probably convinced them it was Avery so they had nothing to dread.

[–]maxmozo

I always found it odd, that on their first visit to TH's, when she was ostensibly just a missing person, they collected items to be used for DNA comparison (toothbrush, hairbrush). They went from missing to dead almost instantly. They have no sense of urgency. It's as if they already knew at that point.

[–]hos_gotta_eat_too

not only that..they kept hounding brendan for what color they were.

they collected a ton of her panties, so once brendan said a color, there ya go...we have pink! we have white! we have green!

"now brendan...think carefully. where did Steven hide the panties?"

"in the Suzuki tailpipe"...bam. bullet found, green panties with TH DNA found in the Suzuki tailpipe!"

[–]spirit_69

But, even if BD didn't mention the panties, although guided by LE to put in the story, that doesn't mean they couldn't plant any panties? It could easily be planted as long as one of those panties wasn't mentioned in the evidence log and RH kept his mouth shut or even didn't notice how many panties they took. In that case it was not only a bullet or a key at the garage or caravan.....Not all the evidence had to follow BD's fake story.

[–]foghaze[S]

Not really, it needed to be corroborated by Brendan in order for it to work. If a suspect denies a valuable piece of evidence it hurts the prosecution not helps it. It would show even more how the confession was false.

[–]JBamers

Yes, exactly. This notion that LE could go around planting whatever they wanted is used to prove that they didn't plant anything! I keep hearing people ask why they didn't plant more but they have to remember, the evidence found had to be tied to Avery and Dassey and fit the state's narrative. I have no doubt had Dassey went along with the panty story, Colborn would have shaken some other item until a pair of panties fell out.

[–]renaecharles

You should also remember this is well after the crime, in order to make it believable, they would need to corroborate something BD said to be able to say he had prior knowledge. They didn't have to have that, but it would give his obviously bs story a little more credence.

[–]Mr_Precedent

Maybe they DID plant panties but Lenk was too busy harvesting other stuff to find them.

[–]c4virus

They could've planted them yeah but they needed a connection to prove his involvement. The way an interrogation gains credibility is if the confession has details that only somebody involved would know about. It would've been very difficult to claim evidence-planting if Brendan 'confessed' some detail about her underwear and that detail was true.