The Bones Found in the Quarry, the "Burn Pile" or "Quarry Pile" in the Gravel Mound - PART 1

Crucial witnesses coming forward now-as they always do when new scientific testing sought. Science not spin will rule.#MakingAMurderer

— Kathleen Zellner (@ZellnerLaw) September 4, 2016

Kathleen Zellner's Press Conference on 8/26/16 [Full Transcript]

Zellner's Motion for Post-Conviction Scientific Testing, Filed on 8/26/16
Zellner's Motion to Hold Appeal in Abeyance and Suspend the Briefing Schedule, Filed on 8/26/16

Wisc. App. Ct. grants our motion to stay appeal and return record to trial court to decide testing motion.#MakingAMurderer #Stepstofreedom

— Kathleen Zellner (@ZellnerLaw) September 15, 2016

There is mystery surrounding pelvic bones and a blood stain found at Radandt's quarry. 

In Kathleen Zellner's motion filed on August 26, 2016, she requested DNA testing on the pelvic bone(s). Zellner wrote:

"Mr. Avery is requesting DNA testing on all the alleged human pelvic bones recovered from the quarry property southwest of Avery Salvage Yard in order to conduct more advanced DNA testing to determine the origin of these bones."

During Zellner's press conference on August 26, 2016, she said that only 30 percent of the bones were recovered and 29 of the teeth were never recovered:

"The bones were moved. That was admitted. There was a human pelvis found over in the quarry. The bones were in different spots. The body was not burned whole. It's not possible to do that. So you've got the same bone in three different places. You've got only 30% of the bones recovered. You have 29 of the teeth never recovered. The bones look like they were planted. The property was closed down. The coroner from Manitowoc was not allowed on the property and actually was not notified it was a murder—that violates the Wisconsin statute."

Zellner wrote in her August 26, 2016 motion that bones found in the Radandt quarry, which included a pelvis, were suspected to be human:

"Most of Ms. Halbach’s bones and 29 of her teeth were not found in Mr. Avery’s burn pit. State expert Leslie Eisenberg testified that the volume of bones discovered in the burn pit was 'two-to three-fifths of what might be expected.' Dr. Eisenberg also admitted that the bones had been moved prior to their location in Mr. Avery’s burn pit. Dr. Eisenberg testified that she suspected that the bones found in the Radandt quarry, which included a pelvis, were human."   

There is a "questionable stain," that tested positive for blood, which was recovered from the quarry (CASO page 219; Property Tag No. 8479, rag with possible blood or rust stains; located at a quarry south of Avery Road).

"Special Agent RON EBBEN directed my attention back to his location and he did show me a rag with a brownish red colored stain on it. Upon walking away from that object, I did locate, what appeared to be, fresh blood in the gravel. Medical Examiner KLAESER did arrive at my location and did confirm that he did believe it also to be blood. I informed Medical Examiner KLAESER I had some concerns due to the fact we did have a substantial amount of rain within the past couple of days and felt it to be very odd that this could possibly be blood from the case we were working on. Medical Examiner KLAESER agreed although I did wish to collect the blood for evidentiary purposes. I did photograph the area of blood and did apply two drops of distilled water to a sterilized cotton swab and did swab the bloodstain. That stain was collected at l716 hours. At 1718 hours, I did a control swab of the gravel in the vicinity of the possible blood."

A DNA profile was developed that matched a male and it did not match Steven Avery, Bryan Dassey or Alan Avery (why only those three?). The stain is labelled as item CX. You can find it in Exhibit 313.

A full DNA profile was developed.

The following image displays the DNA profile, location found and the fact it tested positive for blood (DNA profile top left in picture). XY in the bottom row means it is a male. 

http://imgur.com/EJDW4ce

Here is the result that identifies it as not belonging to Steven Avery:

http://imgur.com/dtqP78E

Blood from Male found @ quarry (other possible location bones). SC reports DNA no match 4 Avery. No further testing! pic.twitter.com/hYZEDTQRST

— Steven Avery Trial (@StevenAvery33) June 15, 2016

The burnt bones in Radandt's quarry were discovered on November 8th. Cadaver dogs first hit on the quarry on November 5th, the day Joshua Radandt told Inv. Steier that he saw a big fire by Steven Avery's trailer around 4:30 p.m. on October 31st as he was driving to his deer camp/hunting cabins. After finding the RAV4 in the "pit" of Avery Salvage Yard, investigators may have starting looking for a body by expanding their radius from the RAV4; from the RAV4 to Radandt's quarry is not very far, and if the body and car were transported from the quarry to Avery's, there may have been some trace to lead a dog that way. Joshua Radandt and his company, Badgerland Aggregates, own almost all of the land around Avery Salvage Yard. Radandt was the first to mention that there was a fire on October 31st; everybody else, in their initials interviews, said there was no fire in Avery's burn pit.

Strang, Buting and Zellner all seem to point to the Radandt quarry as being the site of the murder and/or burning. So if Joshua Radandt wasn't the culprit, he'd have a pretty good motive to pin the crime on Avery. As for the police suggesting to Radandt that Avery may have wanted to pin the crime on him, we already know the police did this to Bobby Dassey. It seemed to have caused Bobby and other members of the family to turn on Avery (CASO file pages 84, 91-92, 113, 135, 187, 190, 195-196, 226, 519), and it may have caused Radandt to turn on Avery and make claims of a bonfire and a burn barrel.

The following is one of two statements that Joshua Radandt gave to police.

CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

Complaint No.
05-0157-955

page 79
File Number

TYPE OF ACTIVITY: Interview of Joshua R. Radandt, M/W, DOB 11/10/74

DATE OF ACTIVITY: 11/05/05

REPORTING OFFICER: Inv. Gary Steier

On Saturday 11/05/05 at approximately 1:30 p.m. JOSHUA R. RADANDT signed a MANITOWOC COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT Consent to Search Form for his gravel stone quarry, located at 12415 CTH Q, Two Rivers, WI 54245. The copy was witnessed by Sgt. NACK (#412) of the MANITOWOC COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT (See exhibit section).

At approximately 5:00 p.m., Inv. STEIER of the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT had spoken with JOSHUA R. RADANDT at a deer camp off of Kuss Road on the edge of the RADANDT GRAVEL PIT. RADANDT stated on Monday, 10/31/05 at approximately 4:30 p.m., he drove up to his deer camp off of Kuss Road through his gravel pit property. JOSHUA RADANDT completed a written statement form. (See exhibit section). RADANDT informed Inv. STEIER on Monday shortly after 4:30 p.m., RADANDT was driving to his deer camp through his quarry where he observed a large fire on the STEVEN AVERY property located by the red house. RADANDT indicates he remembers it being right after 4:30 because he had had an employee that had just come to work to take another employee's shift at 4:30 p.m. RADANDT indicated it was a partly cloudy or partly sunny day and he had clear visibility from his location while he was driving to his deer camp. RADANDT indicated he did not observe any people standing next to the fire or any vehicles located on the Avery property.

Gary Steier, Inv.
Calumet County Sheriff's Dept.
GS/jk



The hunting cabins at the deer camp in Radandt's quarry are pictured above as they were on November 4th, 2005. There were three cabins and what looks like a shed or garage. One of the cabins/trailers appears to be red. Avery's red trailer is at the top of the image.

On August 26, 2016, Zellner wrote that Colborn discovered Teresa's RAV4 on November 3rd, at which time it was seized by MTSO; and then on November 4th, after the CASO flyover, it was moved from Radandt's quarry to the Avery property using the conveyor road:

"On November 3, 2005, Officer Colborn discovered the victim’s vehicle and called dispatch, on a personal line, to confirm the victim’s license plate number. On November 3, 2005, according to the Manitowoc County Sheriff s Department reports, Ms. Halbach’s vehicle was seized. Ms. Halbach's vehicle was moved to the southeast corner of the Avery property on the evening of November 4, 2005 after Calumet County Sheriff Jerry Pagel and Investigator Wendy Baldwin conducted a flyover of the Avery salvage yard. Ms. Halbach's vehicle was moved from the Fred Radandt Sons, Inc. quarry to the Avery property using the conveyor road that led onto the Avery property from the quarry."

Keep in mind that around 8 p.m. on November 4th, Chuck Avery saw headlights in the area where the RAV4 would be found the next morning.



A bloodhound named Loof tracked track" (exhibit D of Zellner's motion and CASO file page 138) in a westward direction to a cul-de-sac at the end of Kuss Road.

In 2005, from that cul-de-sac you could drive straight, along the edge of the field, on a non paved road, to Avery's trailer, or you could go right and drive another non paved road to Radandt's deer camp. In fact, in his November 5th statement, Joshua Radandt refers to the deer camp as being "off of Kuss Road" (page 79).

Included in Zellner's motion is CASO Deputy Rick Riemer's report of activity for November 7th (exhibit D of Zellner's motion and CASO file page 138). Riemer wrote that he and Fauske walked Radandt's quarry and the surrounding field area with a bloodhound named Loof. He also wrote that Loof tracked in a "westward direction to a cul-de-sac at the end of Kuss Road."

Riemer's report is as follows (slightly paraphrased):

"I assisted Sarah Fauske, a patrol officer from Kaukauna Police Department, and her bloodhound, Loof, with tracking. We walked the Radandt quarry and field area on different tracks, covering five to 10 miles. One of the more significant tracks that Loof tracked was from the south entry door of the red house trailer near the concrete stoop, and this track continued in a westerly direction toward a cul-de-sac at the end of Kuss Road. Fauske indicated that Loof was very intense on this track."

In the report it is unclear if Riemer is referring to the red trailer at Avery Salvage Yard or a red trailer at Radandt's deer camp, but he does specify that he and Fauske were in Radandt's quarry and the surrounding field area when they walked the five to 10 miles of tracks with Loof the bloodhound. And since Zellner included Riemer's report as an exhibit in her motion, the logical conclusion would be that Riemer is referring to a red trailer at the deer camp in Radandt's quarry.

UPDATE JUNE 12, 2017: Attached to Kathleen Zellner's June 7, 2017 motion for post-conviction relief is a report by Loof's handler, which states that on November 7, 2005 Loof the bloodhound, tracking Teresa Halbach's scent, walked around Avery's premise, garage and trailer and had shown interest at areas there. This means the trailer that Loof hit on was Avery's red trailer, not the red trailer that had been at the deer camp. The following is Loof's handler's report for activity on November 7th.

We walked down the driveway to the Avery property to the area where the van was sitting and for sale. I pre-scented K9 Loof and did a perimeter scent inventory. K9 Loof was harnessed, given the scent article of the insole and given the command of "Find".

Having started approximately 50 feet east of the van, K9 Loof immediately went to the front portion of the van for sale. K9 Loof continued west going to a black F350 parked in the driveway in front of a garage. K9 Loof went to both doors of the truck. K9 Loof then went directly to the service door of the garage and worked her nose along the bottom of the actual overhead garage door, showing much interest.

K9 Loof worked west around the side of the garage but was unable to continue due to a large aggressive appearing German Shepard. K9 Loof wanted to continue around the garage.

K9 Loof went up to the south door of the trailer home. The door having a small porch entrance and the door was white in color. K9 Loof wanted to enter the home. K9 Loof continued north along the trailer and went between some pine trees and a burning barrel. K9 Loof smelled a charred area showing some interest then continued west.

K9 Loof went west in a picked cornfield. Directly to the south was a gravel pit and in between the two was an area of brush and trees. K9 Loof worked this area with indications of very strong scent. K9 Loof worked west coming out to a cal-da-sac that was taped off with crime scene tape and two deputies were not allowing access. K9 Loof crossed the tape on one occasion and then was told not to go any further. The deputies phoned Sheriff Pagel to see if I could continue but were told to not allow anyone access at this time.

The image above is from November 2005. Radandt's deer camp is at the bottom of the photo. There were three trailers and what looks like a shed or garage.

Today, there are only two trailers, and no other outbuildings, at the deep camp in Radandt's quarry, as pictured below. Gone is the red trailer and a shed/garage (why would they depose of the trailer and shed/garage; could it be that forensic evidence would have placed Teresa and her RAV4 inside?).



Today, satellite images show mining west and northwest of Avery's trailer (image below); it was a field in 2005, with a vehicle-sized path running along the boundary with Avery Salvage Yard. You can no longer drive from the cul-de-sac on Kuss Road through the field to Avery's trailer, but you still can drive from Kuss Road to the deer camp at Radandt's quarry. This is clearly visible from the drone flyover video taken in January 2016 (below, see drone flyover video and screen shot from the video).





In the image above, Radandt's deer camp is marked by the large yellow box on the left, and Avery's trailer is marked by the smaller yellow box on the right. The image is a screenshot from the video below.



From the images below you can see that Badgerland Aggregates, Radandt's company, owns that parcel and other parcels surrounding Area Salvage Yard, including the fields west and northwest of Avery's that is now part a quarry..





The following is the other statement Radandt gave to police, as revealed by Kathleen Zellner in the motion she filed on August 26, 2016.



Zellner wrote in her August 26, 2016 motion that Joshua Radandt accessed Avery Salvage Yard four times during evidence collection. She also wrote that Avery contends that the victim’s key and bones were planted on his property on November 7, 2005 and were discovered on November 8, 2005:

"Non-law enforcement individuals were also allowed to enter the property after the property was closed to the general public. Two of those individuals were untruthful in their police interviews. Mr. Avery will present his third party theory in his post-conviction petition that he will file once he obtains the new test results. Individual A [Joshua Radandt] accessed the  property from the quarry four times, for some unknown reason, after it had been closed to the public. Specifically, Individual A accessed the property within minutes of Officers Colborn and Lenk on November 5, and twice on November 7. Prior to anyone realizing that Ms. Halbach’s body had been burned, Individual A gave a statement in which he described seeing a fire in a burn barrel behind Mr. Avery’s garage on October 31, 2005. Subsequent investigation has determined that Individual A’s statement is contrary to the facts; Mr. Avery’s burn barrel was never behind his trailer or garage, and it was impossible for Individual A to observe Mr.  Avery’s backyard as he described because of the elevation of the quarry from where he was allegedly making his observations.

"Individual B [Ryan Hillegas] accessed the property using a false name... Individual B received approximately 22 calls from law enforcement on November 4, 2005, prior to the victim’s vehicle being moved onto the property. Individual B accessed the Avery property twice on November 7, 2005 and once on November 8, 2005 after the property was closed to the public. Mr. Avery contends that the victim’s key and bones were planted on November 7, 2005 and were discovered on November 8, 2005."

The following are the date and times that Joshua Radandt signed in and out of Avery Salvage Yard during evidence collection:

First Log

11/5/06 – In at 5:25 p.m. with Travis Groelle; Out at 5:35 p.m. with Travis Groelle
11/6/05 – In at 5:08 p.m.; Out at 5:28 p.m.
11/7/05 – In at 6:59 a.m.; Out at  7:10 a.m.



Second Log, "Fire Personnel" (log starts on page 89)

11/7/05 – In at 11:51 a.m. (Radandt's name is misspelled) ; Out at 12:29 p.m.(page 93, "Civilian Volunteers with DCI").



Note that in the first log Radandt signed in and out with Travis Groelle, and note in the second log that the CASO officer overseeing the log misspells Radandt's name at sign-in; the second "d" is missing. This could be what Zellner was referring to in her motion when she wrote that "Individual B [Ryan Hillegas] accessed the property using a false name," and when she tweeted: "Fact: one person actually gave cops fake name to access property to help in TH search. #MakingAMurderer #TheStrangerBesideMe #Checkaduhid." Checkaduhid could mean "check a 'd' you hid," and "thestrangerbesideme" could be Radandt, whose property was adjacent to Avery's, or Ryan Hillegas, who signed in and out on November 5th with Radandt as Travis Groelle. The hashtags are in one tweet, so they are connected.



A Groelle and a Radandt are practically neighbors some blocks north of the Zipperers on County Road B.



[–]DeenahWeenah 

Zellner just stated in her most recent interview that they believe TH's killer was someone "close" to TH. That being said, was Radandt in ANY way connected to the Halbach family? If we can find a connection, then JR can be put on the suspect list.

[–]mmh150

Not saying Radandt is the murderer. People have talked quite often about some different ideas which converge with him: the quarry, the cabin and land grab. Sometimes people look the other way as long as it converges with their interests. It happens all the time in daily life. I don't think OP is even saying Radandt is the murderer. He is saying "the fix was on."

[–]mmh150

Thank you. I think that was the 1985 reason. It always heads back to this.

[–]sjj342

It seems like Jost did not know the information prior to November 8th.

Cynically - it seems like someone intentionally brought it up on the 8th, knowing that the bones had now been transported from the quarry site to the Avery property site. It would make sense that this someone did not want to directly be the one to discover the bones, and would prefer to have that done by someone else ignorant of the planting. It would also make sense that any transfer of the bones was done after November 5th once they essentially have the area cordoned off, the search party is not present, and the number of officers on the scene diminishes.

At the end of the CASO video that SkippTopp obtained is a video of a burn pile purported to be located to the south of the Avery Salvage Yard in the Radandt gravel pit. This link starts at that part of the video:

Calumet County Sheriff's Office Video from Avery/Halbach Investigation (Flyover Video)


In the video above, you don't see actual footage of the salvage yard on November 4th. The footage of the salvage yard was definitely after the vehicle was found on November 5th.

"At approximately 1319 hours, Sheriff PAGEL and I [Wendy Baldwin] arrived at LAKESHORE AVIATION. We met with CURT DRUMM and proceeded to fly over the last two known locations where TERESA HALBACH had been on l0/31/05. We searched the area until approximately 1754 hours."

We received less than 10 minutes of footage, which means that they only released about 3% of the video footage. Makes you wonder what they left out. And that chunk of those 10 minutes is from the 5th after the Rav4 was found. Somebody did a flyover on the 5th. It's right there in the video: the tarp was on the Rav4 between approximately 3 PM and 4:30 PM on the 5th. It appears that footage showing the tarped Rav4 area is from a helicopter, based on the sound, slow movement and sharp turns, so it's not the 11/4/05 footage with Curt Drumm. The CASO log sign-in sheet for November 5th shows "Eagle 3" signing in and out. That is the helicopter.

[–]SkippTopp

I believe the only video from the 4th is shown in the first few minutes of the video, whereas the rest of the video contains footage from other fly-overs that happened after law enforcement reportedly located the vehicle on the 5th. That would explain why the tarp can be seen.

It's hard to be certain, but it seems to be videos from multiple different fly-overs, all spliced together without any clear delineation between them. I believe the video from the 4th continues up through about 04:20, whereas everything after that is from different fly-overs done on the 5th or later. Right around 4:20, a lady's voice can be heard saying something like "this is where the car's supposed to be at... they're in the process of tarping it up right now..." - which implies this portion of the footage was taken on November 5th, soon after the vehicle was reportedly located by law enforcement.

[–]Ductit

I am curious if it was really the Michels Materials Quarry next to Avery Rd, and not to the Radandt Gravel Pit south of the salvage yard. You can here heavy equipment, large loaders or haul trucks beeping away nearby, but I am pretty sure the Radandt Gravel Pit (not a Quarry...) was shut down at that point...

Per Sgt. Bill Tyson:

I was informed several WI STATE PATROL officers found, what appeared to them, to be a charred human foot in the quarry south of Avery Rd. DCI Special Agent RON EBBEN was with me and he stated he would come with me since he did have some expertise in arson and identifying bones.

Upon walking north on Avery Rd., a state patrol officer did direct our attention south to the quarry. Upon walking down the embankment towards the quarry, I did notice two state patrol officers standing by a small area of standing water. The state patrol officers indicated they found, what they believed to be, a human vertebrae in the water. Special Agent RON EBBEN stated he would stand by at the possible human vertebrae while I continued to the area where the state patrol officers possibly found a charred human foot.

Continuing north through the quarry, I did locate a group of state patrol officers standing around an object. Upon making contact with them, they informed me they found something that resembled a human foot that was charred. Upon looking at the item, I could not distinguish if this, indeed, was or was not a charred human foot.

Special Agent FASSBENDER, Inv. WIEGERT and Sheriff PAGEL arrived with Medical Examiner MICHAEL KLAESER. Medical examiner KLAESER looked at the object and stated he did not believe it to be that of a human foot. Correctional Officer TODD KONEN arrived on scene and stated he would stand by with the object while I went to get a camera and evidence bags.

I would call it "east" of Avery Road, but I think its pretty clear when he notes that he is walking north on Avery Rd and then walks "down the embankment towards the quarry". 

I can tell you this with near certainty, the flyover footage from the 4th was intentionally blurred and manipulated so as for it to be impossible to see anything. Same thing with that burn pit video and the picture of the SA burn pit. The flyover footage from the 5th is great, you can see for miles and it was cloudy with a storm moving in on the 5th whereas it was a nice day on the 4th.

I am wondering if KZs Tsunami of evidence has to do with forcing them to turn over the digital negatives for all pictures and videos. If she gets those, as I am sure she is well aware, then MTSO is fucked.

Who Discovered the Quarry Bones, and When?
By parminides at Reddit

A few weeks ago, someone posted something about the pelvic bone from the quarry. I think the OP or the subsequent comments alleged that there's no documentation available about who discovered the quarry bones, or when they were discovered, or precisely where.

I found this claim pretty astounding. On the other hand, I could not find the information myself.

My interest in the bones was renewed by that mysterious footage at the end of the flyover video. So if anyone has a source for who discovered the quarry bones, when, and precisely where, I'd be much obliged if you'd share it with me.

[–]foghaze

No one knows or at least no one actually admitted during the trial. Defense closing statements even mentions how it's a mystery.

[–]foghaze

On 11/8 they announced they found bones behind Avery's in the burn pit when the only bone identified that day as being human and female was the ilium bone. Which the only thing that appears to be an ilium is from the quarry. Eisenberg never finds an ilium. If she would admit the bones in the quarry were human then the defense could tie it in with the ilium and they could say OHHH SO human bones were AT the QUARRY?? Well if that is so how do we even know TH was burned in the burn pit? You see? So that's why it's a big deal.

I've never felt like I needed details on who discovered the quarry burn site because it is so blatantly clear that it was someone NOT connected to all the crooked framing crew (i.e. a member of the public or other LE), and they all preferred to not draw any attention to it because it so obviously flags how the framing was carried out. It was inconvenient evidence they never wanted connected to the case so I'm sure there is next to no proper record of how the evidence came to be submitted.

Given my theory on what happened to TH and the framing, I want to believe the quarry burn site plays a huge role in Zellner's exoneration case and hence will come to light very soon.

[–]OliviaD2

No one knows. and as far as I know, this ilium has disappeared. No testing was done on it... which is interesting. Supposedly it was taken to Bennett at his home on 11/08. If it was in such good shape he could suggest a young adult female, it might have been a good candidate for mtDNA testing (what is done with burnt bones). Since most of the others were in too bad of shape to get decent DNA. Why?

Summary of foghaze's analysis at Reddit by theinspiringdad.com:

All during the trail and all we have been hearing is Eisenberg testifying the only human-like pelvis bones were at the quarry. She is insistent about not knowing for certain if these bones are human (so is Kratz and Fallon). According to Ken Bennett, he positively ID the Ilium (pelvis) on 11/8 and it was not only human but female. This was the day the bones were found, and because of the positive ID, law enforcement were able to arrest Avery at this point because the bone was found on his property. The only problem is there are no ilium bones noted by Eisenberg in evidence at the burn pit on Steven’s property. The only thing that even resembles an Ilium is at the quarry. Eisenberg even states when she first saw the quarry bones she was convinced they were human but for some reason changed her mind and cannot say why. She never gives a good reason why she couldn’t say it was a human ilium. She just says she cannot say either way whether it is human or non-human.

Dr. Eisenberg also says she identified the gender with facial bone fragments from the pit. The reason she couldn’t use the pelvis is because this bone was now recorded in evidence as being at the quarry! If you know anything about identifying bones you know that the pelvis would be one of the fastest ways to do so if enough of it is still in tact. It is much faster than piecing together dozens of tiny facial bones which would have taken days. The state didn’t have this much time. Eisenberg later uses the facial fragments from the burn pit because the state gave the ilium bone from the quarry to Bennett for verification on 11/8 and even reported it in the criminal complaint as being from Avery’s back yard!

Why do you think it was such a big deal during trial that the state insist that Eisenberg doesn’t know if the pelvis like bone/ilium isn’t human? Because it would prove the bones that were positively ID as being female and human (Per Dr. Bennett on 11/8) were not on Steven Avery’s property but in the quarry! They were able to arrest Avery on the spot this day because of this ilium bone found. Had it been in the quarry it wouldn’t have been on his property.

What’s disturbing is the Halbachs were told on 11/9 that the bone found on Avery’s property was from a female. Even though they didn’t have a conclusive ID match, the Halbachs accepted the female bones found on Avery’s property was Teresa’s and even called off the searches! They were mourning Teresa’s death at a prayer vigil on Nov 10th based solely on a female bone found on Avery’s property!

Why didn’t the Halbachs wait for more conclusive evidence that the female remains were in fact Teresa’s? Is it because LE insisted the odds that the bones from another female other than Teresa found on Avery’s property were slim to none? Maybe if the Halbachs knew the bone actually came from the quarry they might have not accepted it was Teresa and still remained hopeful. The media even started reporting on 11/10 that the bones found in the burn pit on Avery’s property were female well before Eisenberg could verify it. Eisenberg had been out of town until 11/10 which is the whole reason Bennett was asked to do it on 11/8.

The fact we don’t have any pictures of the actual burn pit behind Avery’s house and the bone that was identified the very first day by Dr. Bennett as being the ilium (which we know came from the quarry) tells me that most likely all the bones may have been from the quarry or somewhere else entirely. All the human bones were spread out in 3 locations yet indicated they were all burned in one place. This means they had to have been moved. So if Eisenberg never saw the bones at Avery’s and all she got were containers marked with the location from where they were supposedly found how do we know all these bones didn’t actually come from the same place? We don’t. The fact that all the charred human bones indicated they came from the same skeleton and the same burn pile pretty much proves they came from one place, and if you trust the evidence that would be in the quarry where the pelvis/ilium is! LE needed the bones to be on Avery’s property to get the ball rolling on his conviction by 11/10, before the big scheduled deposition. November 10th is becoming more and more significant.



Sources:
Criminal Complaint document showing pelvis ID’d by Ken Bennett
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Criminal-Complaint.pdf

Bones in quarry – tag 8675
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-bones-3.jpg 

The hunting cabins at the deer camp and the "quarry pile" in Radandt's quarry (burnt bones were found in the "pile").


The area as it looks today. The quarry has been expanded north and westward into the field that led from Kuss Road to the edge of Avery's property. In the red circle on the left is Radandt's deer hunting camp. In the red circle on the right was the location of the quarry burn pile were female pelvic bones were found.

[–]RexAxisMundi

What's the deal with the mystery blood stain at the quarry? This is first I've heard of this.


[–]tbenn585

There was a news clip that said that State Troopers were searching the quarry. I'm not sure which day. Maybe one of the troopers found them.
 
http://wbay.com/2016/01/07/video-nov-10-2005-halbach-case-becomes-a-homicide-investigation/

The mention of the quarry is around the 2:30 mark.

[–]parminides

Thanks. The news doesn't actually say that LE found anything. They just say that LE stuck in some red flags and returned, etc. There were multiple quarry searches, so this is inconclusive. But if this is when the quarry bones were discovered, the date is Nov 10. Thanks for the link. 

[–]tbenn585

You're welcome! Yeah, I haven't been able to find anything definitive anywhere. But in any case it's possible the troopers found them. And I figure a little information is better than none.

[–]parminides

The newscast specifically says that these troopers were putting out the red flags around the quarry "today," which was 11/10/2005.

The criminal complaint mentions the ilium, but I didn't see anything about a quarry discovery. Either by sloppy or deceptive wording, the complaint gives the impression that the ilium was part of the burn pit fragments.

[–]sjj342

In the trial testimony, there's discussion of searching the quarry property and digging out silt ponds on the Radandt property. They may have found them then. Bowe is the witness.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-4-2007Feb15.pdf#page=61

ETA - appears to be Evidence Tag No. 8675, perhaps referenced in a report by Trooper Austin (or "Austin report") and Exhibit 402 shows the location? That's my takeaway from Eisenberg's testimony. No idea if Austin's report is available, and I have no idea what department he would be in. Wisconsin State Trooper so probably not covered by MTSO/CASO requests.

Comically, Judge Willis wasn't that interested in a third burn site. Must've had a dinner appointment or something. They ended for the day. On to the next day pdf.

THE COURT: Mr. Strang, can you, uh, let me know about how long this line of questioning will go?

[–]katekennedy

Here is an reddit thread on the quarry bones....

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ynu20/the_bones_at_the_quarry/?

[–]parminides

Thanks. That post links to a map of quarry site. So that tells me where.

[–]lmogier

Didn't the anthro expert say they pulled him from the fire pit to go check out something found at the quarry...? Don't go by me - I tend to confuse things...

Joshua Radandt probably told them to look there - right after mentioning that big ol bonfire he saw 1/2 a mile away on Halloween...

[–]Supreme000

If those are not Teresa's bones, then where is she?

If the ilium was found in the quarry pit, then how did it get there?

There has to be an entire tree regarding the DNA evidence with a whole lot of dead ends or ends left hanging because they were never completed to come to an answer.

[–]sjj342 

The ilium - it is the only piece of evidence that wasn't found by MTSO/CASO (Wi State Trooper). It seemingly should've thrown a wrench in the whole case.

ETA - available documents don't seem to indicate discovery of the quarry bone - trial exhibit 113 or the CASO reports should have it. MTSO reports essentially cease Nov 8.

And other than the supposed tissue analysis bone, it's the only forensics that indicate a female skeleton. And even that is suspect because it wasn't a full pelvis, just part of one.

[–]cpumgr

Does anyone remember who found the "tissue" bone? I thought I read might've been a relative.

[–]UncleJihad

Would that be Mike Halbach's now brother-in law, Jost? Is that right?

[–]parminides

What's your evidence that a WI trooper found the quarry bones? I've been looking for documentation of that discovery and can't find anything.

[–]sjj342

From Eisenberg testimony - Evidence Tag No. 8675, from a report by Trooper Austin (or "Austin report") and Exhibit 402 shows location. I noted this in a reply to your post the other day.

Unfortunately, I think that's all we have available.

ETA - I guess we don't know he found it for certain, but seems reasonable since it's apparently omitted from MTSO/CASO reports, and that seems to be the implication in the questioning. I'll be honest, I have no idea what Austin report refers to - is it a report report, or used loosely to refer to the powerpoint or whatever exhibit he prepared. Usually you there needs to be personal knowledge to bring a piece of evidence in, and I presume Austin is the source, absent any other documentation.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-13-2007Feb28.pdf#page=237 [–]parminides

I believe you are mistaken about Trooper Austin finding the quarry bones. He was the expert in providing maps and graphics for the exhibits. He even testified about it on Day 3 (starting at p.114).

He's mentioned repeatedly in Dr. Eisenberg's testimony as helping her with graphics or reports that have nothing to do with the quarry bones. He's just making the graphics and supplying some kind of report (probably an explanation of the graphics). Do a search of "Austin" in Day 13 and 14 transcripts and you'll see what I mean. He's all over the place.

[–]sjj342

It is certainly possible - but someone has to have personal knowledge of the bones. From Eisenberg's testimony, it sounds like she is aware of the bones and their location from Austin's report. Now, is that a written report? I have no idea.

It gets circular - Austin apparently says she gave him the location (http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-3-2007Feb14.pdf#page=155), Eisenberg says the materials were given to her under that Evidence Tag. If anyone can make sense of that...

ETA - I think we are missing the Exhibit 113

[–]Lurkers-gotta-post

I'm tried to comb the reports because I think it's interesting... looks like the ilium was found SW of the Avery property from the transcript.

Hermann, page 9, mentions search party individuals to the SW on Nov. 5 and telling them to leave.

Note: the quarry/Radandt's is referred to at times as a "gravel pit." Perhaps a search party individual found them 11/5, but I doubt it.

Dep Siders, page 13, mentions separate search groups on Nov 7. He was in Group A that went north, so maybe Group B or C searched that area? That would make sense if one of those groups found it. Odd thing is he mentions Jost, but Jost doesn't seem to have any report filed for Nov 7.

Another interesting thing I never picked up on before - Jost talks about the burn pit having been dug out by a front end loader. In the trial, there's also testimony of Radandt helping dig out silt ponds on the quarry property. Jost links Radandt to the burn pit. I guess that's just another coincidence...

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

[–]parminides

Have you seen this news report from Nov 10? Look at from 2:20 to 2:40. LE putting red flags in a quarry on Nov 10.

[–]sjj342

I hadn't seen the video. That video makes it seem like maybe they were found on Nov 10.  

Eisenberg on direct says in early November of 2005 she was requested by the CASO to examine some human remains that had been recovered; a voicemail was left November 9, 2005 from DCI [this would be the pelvic bone found on the burn pile at Radandt's quarry].

I guess conceivably it could've been found after DCI contacted her.

If not Nov 10 search in that video, I think it'd have to be someone in one of those Nov 7 search groups... Group B or C or whatever. Since those don't seem to be anywhere in the MTSO reports, my guess it's in some CASO documentation we don't have. And from what I gather from the testimony, Exhibit 113 that Austin prepared would hopefully indicate that as well.

If I had to guess, I'm going Nov 10 discovery by CASO, since it would make most sense for the finding to occur after Nov 8, planting or not.

At trial, Eisenberg talks about being given the exhibit, and Austin says Eisenberg's team gave him the location? But she also didn't know where the Janda burn barrels were? So who gave Eisenberg the bone and how did Eisenberg know the location?

The quarry bones don't seem to come up on direct exam. I guess they didn't want to talk about it.

[–]parminides

That's my take. They don't even seem to want to acknowledge that there were bones from a third site.

There has to be some documentation or press conference or news report. How does the defense even know that bones were discovered at the quarry? Where is that information?

[–]sjj342

It had to be in discovery, probably a CASO report or in one of Austin's/Eisenberg's reports. KZ probably has it. If CASO has everything sealed and won't release it, we probably won't see it anytime soon.

It would be interesting though - I've been trying to piece together the sites and the bones.

The tinfoil timeline:
(1) someone requests Marinette ask SA about fires/burning, 
(2) Marinette asks SA on 11/6 regarding burning behavior, 
(3) relays info back to requestor,
(4) coordination with Radandt regarding his fire statement on 11/5,
(5) bones transferred on 11/7 to location consistent with Radandt's statement and not inconsistent with what SA told Marinette, 
(6) bones discovered at Avery's on 11/8, 
(7) MTSO pulls back after 11/8 to make investigation appear independent, 
(8) Someone (Wisconsin State Trooper) discovers a bone fragment on Nov 8-10 that was inadvertently left on the quarry after MTSO pulled out, so that undesirably makes it into discovery.

On (2) - it makes no sense why Marinette pivots to asking SA about that, but if (1) occurred, then that explains (2) and (3). (4)-(6) would explain multiple Radandt logins and the quarry site. (7)-(8) would explain how the bone got noted as being off SA property, rather than being relocated or ignored. It seems it was intentionally not followed up on or analyzed further by LE.

[–]parminides

I think there's something very fishy about the quarry bones, but I can't go along with the tin foil timeline. First of all, Radandt apparently mentioned a Halloween fire in a statement/interview on 11/5, before they started asking SA about fires. 

Zellner wrote in her August 26, 2016 motion:

Prior to anyone realizing that Ms. Halbach’s body had been burned, Individual A [Joshua Radandt] gave a statement in which he described seeing a fire in a burn barrel behind  Mr. Avery’s garage on October 31, 2005. Subsequent investigation has determined that Individual A’s statement is contrary to the facts; Mr. Avery’s burn barrel was never behind his trailer or garage, and it was impossible for Individual A to observe Mr.  Avery’s backyard as he described because of the elevation of the quarry from where he was allegedly making his observations.

What's the timeline on when the barrel was taken from the deer camp, and Kratz ordering the "Barrel #4" back to the crime scene"?  Did the camp barrel get sent back as the Janda barrel?

[-]magiclougie

On November 6th, burn barrel #4 was one of the four Janda burn barrels collected (CASO file, page 101). 

On November 7th, JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG got through barrel#4 and were in the process of going through barrel#2 when they were called back to the scene. Barrel marked #4 was placed back on the trailer. (CASO file, page 142)

On November 7th, Wendy Baldwin "was requested to standby the garbage burn barrel at STEVEN AVERY's house until evidence technicians arrived on scene." She "did standby with this until approximately 1539 hours, when the barrel was recovered by CALUMET CO. SHERIFF'S DEPT. Deputy KEN MATUSZAK." (CASO file, page 135)

On November 7th, "the three barrels that were remaining at the sheriff's department, a barrel Deputy MATUSZAK had brought back from the AVERY property" (CASO file, page 152).

On November 8th, "DA KRATZ also wanted the barrel marked #4 that was returned to the AVERY property to be brought back" (CASO file, page 152).

The other burn barrels were taken from the deer camp on November 12th, per Pevytoe's testimony, direct exam, day 18, page 34.

For other references to the burn barrels in the CASO file, see:

http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/2016/02/dna-profiles-developed-but-not-matched.html

[–]parminides

    I'm sure there is next to no proper record of how the evidence came to be submitted.

I haven't found any yet. I just finished reading the transcripts of the prosecution's direct examination of Eisenberg, and they never mentioned the quarry bones. It's pretty crazy.

Those bones are discussed fairly significantly in the trial. But I haven't seen a place in the transcripts (or anywhere else), where anyone ever shows the specific site, explains who found them, or when.

Maybe the discussion of the quarry bones is pushed by the defense. I don't know. I'll have to look at Eisenberg and Fairgrieve's testimony.

Maybe you're right. Maybe the prosecution would rather everyone forget about them because there's no good reason to think they belonged to TH. They're actually problematic for the prosecution's version of events. So maybe they're trying to ignore them, but the defense won't let them.

[–]watwattwo

I think Pevytoe talks about the Quarry a bit, but not sure if he found the bones.

[–]parminides

He didn't find the bones. See Day 18, p.64-66.

[–]sjj342

It's in Eisenberg testimony - appears to be Evidence Tag No. 8675, Exhibit 402 shows the location, discovery would appear to be documented in a report by a Trooper Austin (Wisconsin State Trooper)

ETA the Austin report could be outside the scope of what's been requested thus far since he's not MTSO/CASO - might have to ask /u/SkippTopp if it's available

[–]parminides

Thanks. Austin actually testified on Day 3 (starting on p.114). He does forensic mapping (i.e., computer-generated models). I'm not sure that his report would have discovery information, but it might.

I think the most interesting/important thing about this issue is that this information was not divulged at the trial. The trial had testimony from both the person who discovered TH's plates and the state trooper who gave him the plate number to verify that they were hers. Yet the history of the quarry bones seems shrouded in mystery.

[–]sjj342

The implication in Eisenberg's testimony seems to be she learned about the item and its location from Austin's report, so I assume there is some sort of formal documentation out there. Hard to believe that wouldn't describe either the discovery of the bones or who informed Austin of the discovery/location.

A lot of oddities in the prosecution case. They don't call the person who informed them of the fire (Radandt) or the person that found the bones (Jost). They didn't seem to ask someone in the search party (David Beach) who they apparently called to testify about going to the Avery property, whether he actually looked for the RAV4.

To me, it suggests they didn't want the defense to cross-examine these people or ask them logically pertinent questions, so they didn't call them or kept direct exam narrower than would otherwise be expected. Often, I get the sense their objections seem almost nervous - maybe that's just my reading of it, but things that seem insignificant, the way the prosecution seems to act overly defensive about it seems odd.

[–]parminides

I'm surprised they didn't call Jost, too. Not calling Radandt about the fire doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I don't think anyone was disputing that there was a fire on 10/31 back then. I think it was accepted by both sides.

Did they every explain how they found the pelvic bones so far away in the quarry? Why would they search there?
by HowitzerZak

One thing I really didn't understand is how they found those bones in the quarry. The location was really far away from where they found the bones in the burn pit and in the burn barrel. It was also completely off the Averys' property.

[–]eja300

That's something I've been wondering also. It makes no sense. Why would you burn a body at a quarry and then move all of the remains 20 feet from your house.

How would they have even found 2 pelvic bone fragments in a massive quarry also. Seems odd.

[–]PeachesFromTulsa

I gathered that they had cadaver dogs searching the property. Perhaps the dogs led them to the quarry. Why the bones were there, however, I haven't any idea.

[–]headstilldown

Radant was a really big name back in the day in that city. I have mentioned earlier that the Radants and police did have pleasant agreements between them regards allowing police to randomly "patrol" their many gravel pits in order to keep kids from having too much fun.

Now you have a Radant in all the same places at all the right times ? Interesting.

All these fire appearances throughout the case have one common denominator........ written police reports.

[–]sjj342

I feel reasonably confident that the reports were fabricated (I can't tell what dates they were written/prepared - but it seems you can reasonably add at least 2-3 days to most of them, i.e., JoEllen Zipperer's statement re: Nov 3 prepared Nov 6) to establish probable cause/suspicion for searching the burn pit plus the testimony of the initial piece of material being located in plain view outside the burn pit - basically, to prevent exclusion of the evidence at trial in the event it was found that the search warrants they had did not encompass sifting through the burn pit.

If Radandt did tell the officers this at 5 PM on Nov 5 and made the fire sound abnormally large, and then went to the property immediately after (less than 30 min later), no way they would not have looked at the burn pit unless they are extremely incompetent. Potentially, this "around 5 PM" conversation occurred on the Avery property, which would make failure to document and examine the burn pit on Nov 5 more inexplicable. That he was then allowed in and out of the property multiple times thereafter preceding the Nov 8 discovery of bones only supports that there is some cooperation or collaboration between him and LE to get the story right about the fire. That corroborates if not explains (1) the quarry burn site and (2) the 3-day delay between the discovery of the "bones." It also would explain why (3) Radandt was never called to testify about the fire and (4) Jost was never called to testify about the discovery.

Once they had the discovery and news reports, they were then able to coerce other members of the property to say there was a fire (lest they themselves be charged with obstruction, accessory after the fact, etc.), then the prosecution didn't need to call Radandt.

Ever since I saw the combination of Radandt + the anonymous "someone" + reference to a fire in the MTSO report by Jost, it caught my eye, being Radandt was a new name to me.

Then I saw the older discussion on the sub of how/why Radandts would have motivation to take out the Averys, based on land parcels and how that could tie in with the 1985 case, along with how MTSO has motivation to take out SA based on the 1985 case lawsuit. KZ's big green dollars? Perhaps.

Then I looked at the trial to see if either Radandt or Jost testified and cross-examined - nope.

Then the CASO log shows Radandt going signing in and out multiple times.

Then there's this CASO report that has Radandt mentioning a large fire BEFORE his first log-in on the CASO logs.

The only way to make sense of it seems to be some collaboration - there's no seemingly valid reason for him to be on the Avery property for a non-negligible period of time.

What I am interested in is (1) did they identify the employees referenced in the statement who should've also witnessed the fire, and (2) if so, did they get statements from them? If the answer to either is no, then the likelihood of something fishy only increases... 

"RADANDT was driving to his deer camp through his quarry where he observed a large fire on the STEVEN AVERY property located by the red house. RADANDT indicates he remembers it being right after 4:30 because he had had an employee that had just come to work to take another employee's shift at 4:30 p.m." [Inv. Gary Steier's report on November 5th activity; page 79]

Only one person was at the Quarry, at the hunting cabins late Halloween night, at the crusher the time of the discovery of the RAV4 RADANDT. JOSHUA 
by AConanDoyle

What the hell is Joshua doing going to a hunting cabin late on Halloween, the day Teresa disappears, witness to a bonfire WTH, from what vantage point?????

Bones, mud and damage on the Rav4 all point to this being a critical component of Teresa's disappearance.

Without a doubt the most suspicious behavior yet. Access to the Avery salvage lot, on site Sat. when the RAV 4 was found.

For me this report is the smoking gun; the fix was on, Avery was framed and Radandt is very likely in some way complicit.

And it seems he also owns the Quarry where the burn pile with bones was found.

According to Branden Dassey, he also is clearing brush to burn. In addition, he already puts himself onsite Halloween, the day Teresa went missing, where the bones were found on his property, and is clearing brush to make a fire, shows up a the car crusher when the RAV4 is found, that is a stunning degree of coincidence.

Joshua Radandt was also on Steve Avery's witness list, right next to Zipperer.

Here is the location of burn pit where the pelvis bones were found on the Radandt quarry.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Defendants-Witness-List.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/yyUuhNU.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ynu20/the_bones_at_the_quarry/

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

[–]magiclougie

"RADANDT stated on Monday, 10/31/05 at approximately 4:30 p.m., he drove up to his deer camp off of Kuss Road through his gravel pit property. JOSHUA RADANDT completed a written statement form. (See exhibit section). RADANDT informed Inv. STEIER on Monday shortly after 4:30 p.m., RADANDT was driving to his deer camp through his quarry where he observed a large fire on the STEVEN AVERY property located by the red house. RADANDT indicates he remembers it being right after 4:30 because he had had an employee that had just come to work to take another employee's shift at 4:30 p.m." [Inv. Gary Steier's report on November 5th activity; page 79]

"What the hell is Joshua doing going to a hunting cabin on Halloween, the day Teresa disappears, witness to a bonfire WTH, from what vantage point?????"

Good question! Radandt was in his quarry on the evening after Teresa went missing. It is at his quarry where pelvic bones would eventually be found in a "burn pile." Coincidentally, 4:35 p.m. is when Avery last called Teresa's cell phone, at which time it was already dead, meaning it was destroyed or the battery was dead or removed. Teresa went missing sometime between 2:42 p.m. and 4:35 p.m., and we know that Radandt was at his quarry that evening/night.

[–]Classic_Griswald

Joshua Radandt is related to the Radandt quarry in some way. Radandt was are a mining company that operates and owns the quarry next to the Averys.

It's referred to as the 'Radandt Quarry'.

[–]knowjustice

Radandt filed for Chapter 11 in 2014. Josh is a great-grandson of the founder, Fred. His son's took over the business. At least two have since passed. Josh's parents are likely in their 60's.

[–]MsMinxster

Here is info about Josh's new company that /u/abidingmytime posted on this thread. Josh Radandt was the president of Fred Radandt and Sons, which filed for bankruptcy in 2014. I believe they have formed a new company, Badgerland Aggregates LLC. In June 2015, Josh Radandt and Bill Vachon represented Badgerland Aggregates at a Town of Gibson meeting during which they requested conditional use permit and variance to expand nonmetallic mining operation on 34 acre parcel between Jambo Creek Road and Cherney Road.

Here is a crude map that shows who owns the land around the Avery property: Land ownership around Avery Salvage. As you can see, Badgerland Aggregates owns almost all of it.



/u/knowjustice, your comment down thread about Doug Haag led me to this thread posted in December that discusses the motive for framing SA might be the mineral mining opportunities on Avery property. According to that thread, Q-Pit (quarry near Avery's) is now owned by Badgerland Aggregate and Manitowoc County.

[–]knowjustice

Good sleuthing. I just posted the same link to the town minutes. If you look at Manitowoc County Tax Records for the Town of Gibson, you'll note Badgerland Associates owns a ton of land. Fred Radant started his business in the 1920's.

[–]Lillianrik

Photos that show the topography of the Avery Salvage property are limited but given them and references to "the pit" it looks to me like some sort of mining was done on the parcel at some point in time. Not sure what anyone might have been mining for (gravel??)....

[–]desertsky1

Thanks-that link with the visual of land ownership around Avery's is powerful!!

[–]Pokieme 

I think you are on to something huge. Hard to believe how surrounded Avery salvage is. So when Zellner says obvious - this is obvious. Radandt can be framer but also the real you know what?

[–]sleuthing_hobbyist

He is now what appears to be the first person to mention the bonfire at the Avery's on 10/31.

Statement was made on either 11/5 and described the fire as "larger than usual" (page 79).

[–]sleuthing_hobbyist

I don't see any interview with him, just those remarks. I'm sure he becomes a suspect to many in all this with that hunting cabin. I have mentioned before there is a conveyor that goes from that gravel pit right onto the Avery's property.

I'd be interested in understanding the relationship between people from the junkyard and joshua.

We know that they set their gun sights in the gravel pit, so maybe they were friendly. Does joshua have a hunting relationship with Scott, bobby, etc?

However, on the other side of the coin, it's a mention of a bonfire on the Avery property on 10/31. Something alot of people are convinced was something Avery conformed to and others were coerced to accept.

[–]_Overman

If I was going to implicate someone for something that I did, I would gladly make comments of how "unusually" large a fire was that night.

Was the remarks in response to a question he was asked or did he just offer it up?

Another aerial pic of the burn pit & tree line. Joshua is lying part 2. 
by c4virus

I posted the other day about whether or not it was even possible for Joshua to see a fire on 10/31 (regardless of whether or not there actually was a fire). The post got downvoted by Donald Trump supporters (no joke) so it's here in case you missed it (https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4d7ctw/did_joshua_radandt_lie_about_seeing_a_fire_an/ )

This may seem repetitive but there's an additional detail here to consider.

I read /u/OpenMind4U 's great post which got me thinking... (a fire damages/blackens grass/soil around it yet the grass/soil around the burn pit is the opposite)

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4d6iac/black_hole/

Then I found this video and took a screenshot of the burn pit. There's no way a 10 ft, several hour long fire was raging there just days earlier. http://i.imgur.com/da8zQC9.jpg

Here's another view where you can see large trees + smaller ones as well as the berm that would impede Joshua's view: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-burn-pit-chair-frame.jpg

Given that Joshua was likely at least 1,000 feet away, the fire would have to be quite sizeable for him to have seen it. Given that we have pics of the fire pit we know, if there even was a fire, it had to be small.

Simply put, Joshua is lying. Even if he could see the fire, it was not large as he described. So he's either lying about the size or about even seeing it in the first place.

Maybe he's just mistaking it for a different fire the way other members of the family likely did...but given his detailed interview and that he gave that statement on 11/05 it pushes me towards lying.

Edit: If he's lying about the size, then that means the size is important to him. Given that the bones had not been found yet he has no reason to lie about the size unless he knows what's in there.

2nd edit: Another piece to consider is that with the pics of the burn pit the only objects shown there were 1 tire and that seat. What was being used to fuel such a large fire? Some remnants of said objects would have remained, they would not have burned down to ash at nearly 100% rate. And having a 10' fire so close to a giant propane tank? There's simply no way a very large fire was there on 10/31 (or anytime that week).

[–]Bzaps11

The ridge between Averys and the quarry seems pretty high. Would JR have seen a fire? Not likely.

Drone Flight Over Steven Avery's Property, January 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RlGLTkSpVg

[–]Casablank10

Exactly. I never had a good feeling for how high the berm was until I saw this. It's no wonder that KZ picked up on JR's lie - there is no way JR could have seen a fire in a burn barrel at SA's trailer.
[–]c4virus

Not only that he specifically says he saw a burn barrel. Barrels are typically 33-35 inches high. So if the berm is 3 feet or higher it's basically impossible for him to have seen a barrel given the quarry is the same elevation or a little lower.

Then you add to that the trees on the property line and his statement becomes very suspicious.

Is this the Quarry burn site?   
by solunaView

Image came from a January 29, 2016 NBC Dateline news program here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/the-state-of-wisconsin-vs-steven-a-avery-part-2-618615875686

Really short clip starting at 5:39 of Part 2



A killer could dig out a shallow area under a mound of concrete debris, for example, place a body with some gravel in the shallow area, douse it with diesel or some super combustible liquid, and then set it on fire. The explosion would drive the body up against the concrete debris, breaking every bone in the body. This would make it easier for a killer to dispose/cut/dismember a body, rather than having to cut through bones. This would explain the quarry pile of charred remains which may be what is depicted in the image above.

The actual long/lat for the site is provided in Exhibit 402. The location is: N44 14 51 W87 41 51

Here: http://imgur.com/OFONNx5

Lots of stuff found in this exact spot, check this out:.

http://imgur.com/UtrXGz9

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4fvif3/mapquest_map_evidence_tag_8429_also_spent_rifle/

It's very near the edge of the quarry. The thing is the site has changed in the last 10 years.

Here's an old image with the site for the quarry bones marked. You can kind of guess where it is exactly by matching the roads.

https://i.imgur.com/yyUuhNU.jpg

That's really close to where the burn barrel is in the flyover video too.

Awesome thanks that is one of the best period maps of the quarry. I saved it now!! Too bad it's not zoomed in more but we can see enough to tell how much the site has changed. The roads within the quarry are different. The Avery's have apparently blocked off access from the quarry now, etc.

My feeling on the quarry site was always that it would be near the side or an embankment. It makes no sense to burn anything, animal or human, out in the open because of wind, and why create a point of clutter in the open.

This is why the image seems to me to be the quarry site at least one of them because this is exactly what I had imagined if that makes sense. It seems to be near or is an embankment (at least to me).

That said, Limestone can be mined in different ways to produce different products. It looks to me that this quarry is mostly designed to produce gravel. It also looks as if it has been used as a dump for roadwork and other projects over the years. My guess is the image is among a bunch of broken and dumped concrete pieces, rather than mined material. Radandt most likely had contracts with the county or state to provide gravel and to grind/ recycle old pavement.

Looking at the current maps of the Radandt property, I can easily see hundreds of dump-truck loads that are being used as "fill". I think the concrete chunks we see in the image are some of the same. Now where was this "pile" and why was it important to LE?

[–]CopperPipeDream

This could be the "rock pile" where they found the mystery stain, item CX.

[–]solunaView[S]

I was looking at this video for something else and had a wow moment when that quick quarry clip played. To my knowledge we've never seen the site pictured. This site looks really ominous to me.

[–]solunaView[S] 

To me this looks like a mass initial search so yes the 6th would make sense. Looks partly sunny with clouds developing from the limited views.

[–]chromeomykiss

Wow! Tremendous job on spotting that! Can it be matched up to any area of the quarry shown in the flyover video? Perhaps the area shown with the burning barrel and smoke? IIRC there were several debris piles around that smoking object that looks like a burn barrel.

[–]solunaView[S]

Great question I don't have time atm but maybe someone will take a look!! It does remind me of the spot where the burning barrel was now that you mention it or at least nearby.

The weird thing about the clip is it shows a huge digging machine then a bunch of cops cresting a hill but this shot is different. They all look to be gathered around looking at the same area.

Very strange and chilling image I can't explain why??

[–]Lolabird61

From what I recall from the aerials, the quarry burn site was south and east of the "smoke" seen on the flyover video, but not by some huge distance. If it was about 1000 ft. from the hunting camp to SA's trailer, the distance from the smoke to the quarry remains area was less than 150 ft. (Just guesstimating here.). It would be interesting to get a true measurement and to be able to see the actual terrain.

[–]CopperPipeDream

I know it's a rural area and they're common to find but wonder what made them interesting to investigators? Isn't this where the bones were also found and the mystery stain?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CAmOFVsqIB89A1FJ9FY0YqIPoQg&usp=sharing

[–]treefortress

The "foot" was found in the quarry NE of Avery's, just north of the weighing station in the quarry. This is probably the quarry NE of Avery's searched on 11/6 by 5 or so cops. Dog hit on something. I believe it turned out to be insulation or something.

[–]JSException

I think the Manitowoc Sheriff's dept hid the car. I think the police found TH's body and burned it in a barrel at the quarry, where no-one would notice. The barrel could generate the 1600 degree's necessary to reduce the body to bones [http://www.sott.net/article/185067-Body-burners-The-forensics-of-fire]. Then moved the barrel containing the bones to Avery's and dumped it in the pit. Why? They were about to loose a $36M dollar lawsuit to Avery and the insurance company had an out based on their misconduct.

[–]NAmember81

Since the pelvic bone wasn't on SA's property did LE downplay it as if it didn't exist? Seems like something that should have gotten more attention. Plus that bloody rag with male DNA that they deliberately kept the DNA testing pool restricted. They tested SA and like two other people on the Avery property with the least likely chance of something showing up. 

KZ tweet about fake names used to help with search....
by Tfor10 

Does anyone have any info on Josh Radandt and Travis Groelle? Only two names when signed in on November 5th have no affiliation to anything.... Just a thought but maybe if KZ tweet was actually about identification the id they never checked relates to these 2?

Did a little looking and found both names in Manitowoc or two rivers.... Josh apparently owned possibly "The quarry pit" by the Avery property and Travis an amateur race car driver?? Were they actually there?

Could they be friends of mikes/Ryan's, could Mike or Ryan have used names they were familiar with or how were the two related to each other/the case? Or were they just part of the search group but never marked down as so?

Pure speculation just found it weird they were the only 2 people without affiliation to anything on record and really couldn't find much on these two and wanted to know if anyone maybe knew anything about either.

And also where could I find out which badge number belonged to whom on the log in sheet from nov 5?.... Searched the names again: it appears if the two people that have come up in search are the 2 that signed in, which odds are, it's a good chance considering they come up in Manitowoc and two rivers...

Not saying it's factual or anything it is the internet but Travis appears to be the same age as Mike Halbach and josh 9-10 years older... Josh has reason to be there from what I'm reading and hearing but who is Travis? Did he work for Josh? Again just looking for information not assuming anything he could end up having a perfectly good reason for being there just doesn't go down on the log as anything...

Josh Radandt - Interview Report - 11-05-2005. Topic: "RADANDT...observed a large fire on the STEVEN AVERY property...right after 4:30" p.m. on 10-31
by Fred_J_Walsh



[–]LovingAnyway

So Joshua Radandt is the reason LE thought there was a bonfire on 10/31. He's the only one to have said that on 11/5 (Avery/Dassey folks changed story beginning 11/14). Seems very suspicious to me. Especially the time he says, 4:30pm, which is before sunset that day. He was in and out of Avery's Salvage during the evidence collection.

And burned bones were found on his quarry property.

At the time, his company was suing the City of Manitowoc (government contracts dispute).

[–]TERRI8LE

The prosecution narrative has Avery burning her with tires as well. 430PM is still daylight. Burning tires at night?....ok, maybe he can get away with this. Burning tires in daylight and not having EVERYONE remember the 1000' column of black smoke resulting? The area was devoid of rubber residue, as were the bones, so not much veracity to this other than the belts. I have problems with the time here as well. It seems others would have definitely noticed the fire during the day if it was visible from that far away. After Radandt's statement, the investigators "know" there was a fire and use that knowledge to elicit corroborating statements. I get a feeling this statement was all it took to get things rolling.

[–]LovingAnyway

I agree with you. Also, Barb says on 11-14 there was a fire, but she says no to the tires because she'd warned Steven that the smoke made her house black. I assume from the outside. Couple this with the huge column of black smoke you say and I'm firm this was not true.

[–]TERRI8LE

Don't take my word for it. See the Blackhawk Down incident in Mogadishu for an idea of what burning tires /seats/etc does. I believe this was also a problem in Iraq.

All those people coming and going and no one thought to mention something that supposedly looked like this.

[–]ScousePie 

The theory of the tires as accelerant is based on finding the steel wires from the tires. Perhaps they put 2 + 2 together and got 3.

[–]Blackhawk2479

But without accelerant the time required to generate enough heat to burn a body like that increases considerably.

[–]watwattwo

    Also, beginning on 11-14-05 Barb now says there was a fire, but she says 'no' to the tires because she'd warned Steven that the smoke made her house black.

Source for where Barb "says no to the tires"?

All I see is her saying "she does not like that":

    We asked BARBARA what STEVEN usually burns in the pit and she said usually tires; however, she does not like that because the house gets black when he does that.

[–]LovingAnyway

I wasn't quoting saying no to tires...that was my interpretation. Thing is--if there had been a bonfire where Steven burned tires, then I think there would have easily obtained evidence on her mobile home exterior because of saying it turns it black (hyperbole but definite possibility of residue).

[–]Ahem_Sure

Daytime but only for a few minutes. First off there would be nothing weird about burning tires in the country during the day, but sunset was at 4:40 that day.

[–]MsMinxster

Josh says he saw the fire as he was driving through his quarry toward Kuss Road. Based on this view from the quarry, it seems the fire would have to been pretty damn high for him to have seen it. That's a pretty major fire in the middle of the afternoon.

[–]LovingAnyway

Any ideas for his trips to the Salvage yard 11/5 - 11/7? I can't figure out why. Does LE call people to come to where they are to interview them? Take a statement? Did he give his 11/5 statement at the salvage yard?

[–]MsMinxster

At 1:30 on Nov 5th Josh gives his consent for MTSO to search the gravel pit, and by 5pm Calumet Sheriff's Dept is questioning him at his deer camp. This leads me to believe they found something at his family's gravel pit.

So what else did LE question Josh about? Hard to tell from that report, isn't it? Also, wasn't it nice of LE to question Josh in the privacy of his deer camp and not in his home in front of his wife and kids or his place of business in front of his employees?  

And how is it that blood and bones were found at the Radandt's quarry but their business wasn't shut down and subjected to the same scrutiny as Avery Salvage?

Maybe LE extended Josh that courtesy because of his family's close ties to MTSO. Josh's younger brother, who helps run the family business, is married to the only granddaughter of a 27-year veteran of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department (a former captain of the detective unit and deputy inspector). This retired detective was around for SA's 1985 frame-up, and though he didn't participate in the shenanigans, the whole corruption crew owed him for keeping his mouth shut at the time.

My speculation is Josh made so many weirdly timed trips to the crime scene between 11/5 - 11/7 to move whatever evidence found at Radandt's to SA's--with a little help from Peterson and Hermann.

[–]Redacted_S 

WTF? Do all the potential suspects in this case have a connection to MTSO? With the exception of SA of course.

[–]CommPilot72

This is very interesting. If JR saw a large fire shortly after 4:30, SA had to have done his work very quickly. Plus, it's clear from Barb's testimony that her house was full of people by 5:00. So what that tells me is that he's potentially dumping an adult woman's body on top of a fire, with several people literally next door. That doesn't make any sense to me.

[–]tworutroad

...and when there's still enough daylight for smoke to be visible. Pffft.

[–]lougalx

So, why didn't they search the fire pit on the evening of the 5th, 6th, 7th...? These cops are all thick as pig shit if you ask me...

[–]ScousePie

    So, why didn't they search the fire pit on the evening of the 5th, 6th, 7th...? These cops are all thick as pig shit if you ask me...

That's the million dollar question imo.

[–]milwaukeegina

    So, why didn't they search the fire pit on the evening of the 5th, 6th, 7th...? These cops are all thick as pig shit if you ask me.

I thought they blamed that incompetence on poor Bear, SA's dog.

[–]Fred_J_Walsh[S] 

Definitely a question I have for LE, even as a "guilter." Why the three days between finding the car on Nov 5 and finding the bones on Nov 8? It can't be all Bear's fault, or can it.

[–]hos_gotta_eat_too

As a "truther", I can appreciate the question of LE for those 3 days...and not starting anything on your statement, I just want to expand on it..

Why not the urgency to find her after the car was found. Why were their not team after team of search and rescue dogs brought in from other counties, even other states...

All they had was a car. Nothing else...no sign of her being dead (Orth didn't see blood when he looked in the car)..so not even a sign of any harm to her. At that time, she was just missing...why not tear apart every room, basement, closet and shed on that property looking for what she was at that time....a missing person.

They handled the investigation the day they found the car as a "recovery" mission.

That's pretty telling.

This is one the main issues that raised the huge red flag for me.

[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale

MH had already given his "time to mourn" interview. I don't think anyone ever treated this investigation as a missing person case.

[–]MMF27

Agreed. Key point. Nobody said "she might be close"......or anything. Especially Pam was definitely only looking for a car.

[–]DeepStall 

This shouldn’t come as a surprise. That no one was searching for a person, dead or alive, came to light with Pam’s call to Pagel and Wiegert. I did not notice this at first while watching MaM, only after reading the full transcript of that phone call. It is so obvious she wasn’t looking for Teresa, and Pagel and Wiegert knew that too. When Pam called in to report she found a RAV4, not once were she asked whether she saw any sign of Teresa, dead or alive. Nor did she consider it to be an important thing to mention. Two scared women call in to say they found the missing person’s car, and all you have to say to them is stay put, don’t touch it, don’t let anyone touch it, right, yeah Pam, go guard the evidence will ya. Like, if the perp shows up, you just stay put, block the car and say the words: “I, Pam of God, command you to stop, Devil! You shall not pass!”. What a joke.

And Krap-z with his “just let me stop you right there” every time Pam says or is about to say something dubious.... And that recovery:

    Q. I'm going to stop you right there, Pam. Can you tell the jury what you were looking for.

    A. We were looking for any trace of Teresa, be it the car or herself

Yeah that needed to be emphasized, just in case the defense was going to point out that you weren’t Pammy, after the tape was played in court. The guy is smart, I’ll give him that.

[–]Powerdan74

Sturdivant checked the burn pit after the first bone was found outside the pit while Bear was still there. Bear couldn't have been that big of a threat.

Edit for Correction: Sturdivant described the dog as intimidating and charged at people but yet he was able to go over to the fire pit. To me it sounds like the dog could not reach the burn pit.

[–]lmogier

Wouldn't Bear have found bones there if they had been there for the entire time? I know he was chained - was he able to reach any of the areas?

[–]Powerdan74 

Dr. Eisenberg testified that the bones didn't show any evidence to have been disturbed by a dog or other animal. She also testified that animals aren't drawn to burnt human remains. I have not seen anything stating for fact whether Bear could reach the area of the pit where all of the bones were. I did see testimony that he couldn't reach the area where the one bone was found 8 feet from the pile. Here's a cool thread where /u/OpenMind4U calculated where Bear's chain would reach.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/46rzzv/dog_in_middle/

[–]lmogier

        She also testified that animals aren't drawn to burnt human remains.

Ok, sounds reasonable but wasn't she also the one to say that those bones hadn't been moved and/or the body burned elsewhere and placed in burn barrels/pit? I listened to a podcast with another anthro expert who questioned how could she testify to that as she didn't see them as found but after scene was disturbed.

[–]Powerdan74

Yes she did testify to that and I had to laugh when I read it. I was just repeating what has been stated that I was aware of. I will have to listen to the podcast. I don't believe for a second that those bones weren't burned there but their poor police work made sure it couldn't be proven otherwise.

[–]Powerdan74 

Another thing, I don't understand how in the world other than lack of money as to why the defense didn't have their own forensic anthropologist.

[–]lmogier

They did - that's where I had heard that - he was a Canadian guy but I forget his name. He was on the podcast 'The Docket' with Michael Spratt.

[–]Powerdan74

Ok, thanks. I will check out that podcast.

[–]H00PLEHEAD

They weren't looking for burnt remains though, odd as it seems now.

[–]miky_roo 

I would assume that if the fire pit LOOKED like a big fire had taken place, it would very well be checked right away, dog or no dog.

[–]H00PLEHEAD 

Of course. But how could you forget who we're dealing with here?

[–]parminides 

The cadaver dog indicated activity at the Janda burn barrel on Nov 5. Julie Cramer, the dog handler, would not let her dog near the pit because of Bear.

[–]NAmember81 

The cadaver dog handler indicated activity

Didn't that woman cop say the dogs were hitting on nearby cars to the Rav 4 and tried to involved the bloody rag in that account?

The dog is only reliable as the handler.

[–]parminides

The dog did hit on cars in a junkyard, as expected, since many cars were from bloody wrecks. That's not the dog's fault and it's not the handler's fault.

The dog doesn't indicate death. It indicates decaying tissue. So both "cadaver dog" and "human remains dog" are misnomers. This is all explained in the testimony.

[–]H00PLEHEAD 

True that, although for some reason I thought it was the 6th. But, there were alot of hits with those dogs, and a lot of property to cover.

[–]parminides

It was the fifth.

[–]LovingAnyway

In reviewing the logs, the Cramers were onsite multiple times, not just the 5th as I thought from reading the testimony.

But then, the list of who was onsite was pretty much everyone and their cousin.

[–]lmogier 

Yes but didn't that dog also indicate activity on the golf cart? I'm sure it's been asked and answered but do these dogs indicate activity to animal cadavers and/or how sensitive are they at detecting remains (and is it just remains or would they detect blood too?).

[–]parminides

I believe they would detect old blood from human or another animal. The terms cadaver and human remains are misleading for these dogs. He could have gotten excited about chicken bones in the Janda burn barrel for example.

[–]misslisacarolfremont

Cadaver dogs are specifically trained to detect human remains and are not fooled by chicken bones. This was something I learned a long time ago somewhere and it always stuck with me.

From member /u/cgm901 : "Cadaver dogs will hit on human fluids, remains, decomposition. Keyword "human". The only other animal that can trick a cadaver dog is decomposed pig. The dog knows the difference between human and animals. Unless those bones belong to a pig, some type of human body or fluid was in those barrels. ETA: here is a good article that explains about what they detect http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crime-scene-canines-835047.html They detect the smells associated with decomposition of humans, NOT bone. "

--unquote--

from JLW's full post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4bevxz/those_pesky_burn_barrels_two_hits/

[–]parminides o

Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I guess a dog that barks at chicken bones is not much use!

But it's not really death that triggers the dog. It's decay. See, for example, Day 5 testimony, p.41-43. I think this is what I was remembering.

Also, the dogs definitely give false positives. See Day 5 testimony, p.35-38.

[–]lougalx

They managed to get close enough to feed him so I can't imagine Bear stopped them looking at anything. I'm not surprised by the incompetence though, just another weird thing to add to the list...

[–]LesaDawn 

Which also begs the question, if bear was so vicious everyone was scared to approach the burn pit, who fed the dog for three days?

[–]Dikanis

Who's Bear? SA'S dog?

I have had a burning question about that dog as well:

If it took them (not sure how long but I thought several hours) to get that dog away so they could look at the pit then how in the world would SA and BD be able to rape, murder and burn a woman with that DOG right outside and the DOG not be going nuts barking all the while?

Dogs have a very keen sense and super human hearing.

SA said" oh dat's my dog ha ha, yeah, he barks like crazy all da time" he said that somewhere anyway.

That's a German Shepard: if there was a woman screaming anywhere near for her life that DOG would have been barking his head off!!!!

If BD was hearing screams with-in a 100 FT of SA'S door, he would have heard that dog going nuts and so would anyone who was on that property!!!!!

Just Sayin

[–]OpenMind4U

OMG...I do appreciate your post sooo much...Here is my 'present' to you! Enjoy!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/46rzzv/dog_in_middle/

[–]honeygirl71

Thanks! Putting together a few thoughts about this...The tree against the hood of the SUV was described by Ertl as looking as if it has been pulled up by the roots. I take this to mean heavy equipment used in clearing is the probable reason. Also in Ertl testimony, he states that blood and something that looks like tissue (tested positive for blood) was found 6-8 feet up a 30' gravel pile. In the evidence photos, there is what appears to be red paint on the passenger side of TH vehicle. The gate at the quarry entrance matches this color. There is a road that appears to travel straight into the Avery property from the quarry. JR was clearing brush and was around the night TH disappeared. Sorry is disjointed...I am just rambling a little because I am in a rush :) Also, would like to know if TH, RH, SB, or MH had a relationship with JR? Would that make them familiar with the property?

[–]thebeacon32 

It seems like the quarry site is pretty far from the salvage yard, so what made them even look there? How much area did they search? Or did someone find something and give them a tip?

[–]mmh150 

It's in testimony. Perhaps Ertl's where they are called over because a search party found bones at the quarry? So check his testimony. Sorry in advance if I'm wrong. :/

[–]parminides[S]

You may be thinking of when he was called to a quarry location for a potential burial site. That was a false alarm. See Day 6, p.41-47.

[–]misslisacarolfremont

On the defense side, it appears Josh has a strong motive for getting rid of the Avery's Salvage Yard (see below) and presumably if Steven gets millions of dollars from the county, the Salvage Yard is there to stay.

I find Bryan's testimony to be the most believable for the exception of the bonfire part, which I am still on the fence about.

The other day we had a post confirming that Josh Radant is the co-owner of Badgerlands Aggregates. A map showed that for the exception of the Avery's property, Badgerlands owned everything around them for miles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4brjvb/only_one_person_was_at_the_quarry_at_the_hunting

Edit: My fence sitting about Avery's guilt remains. I do see Josh as yet another person who had access to the property, knew it well, and was there that night. That is incredible in a series of incredible things.

Edit: Is Josh near the quarry where bones were found? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

[–]knowjustice

Josh Radant pushed his great grandfather's business into bankruptcy...after numerous EPA violations. He reorganized with some other folks and started Badgerland Aggregates. I suggest you do some research. And while you are at it, check out Vinton Construction and the Maples family. Prison time in that case.

[–]Lolabird61

Wisconsin Concrete Construction Company Co owner Fined $200,000 in Bid-Rigging Case
April 22, 2005

On April 22, Michael Maples, co-owner of Vinton Construction Co. (Vinton) of Manitowac, Wisconsin was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Green Bay, Wisconsin to 12 months in prison and ordered to pay $200,000 in fines and restitution on bid-rigging charges. On April 1, 2005, the company and its other owner, James Maples were ordered to pay a combined $1.8 million in fines and restitution on charges of rigging $100 million in highway construction contracts. Another firm, Streu Construction Co. (Streu) of Two Rivers, WI and its owners were sentenced in January 2005 to a combined $1.1 million, with its executives sentenced to 17 months in prison stemming from their guilty pleas to bid-rigging charges. A suspension applicable to all Federal-aid construction projects is currently in effect for Vinton (as well as James and Michael Maples) and Streu principals, Ernest and John Streu. This investigation, one of the largest DOT fraud cases in Wisconsin, was conducted jointly with the FBI and Department of Justice, with assistance from FHWA and the Wisconsin DOT.

https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/31385

[–]Classic_Griswald

Why wasn't he used in trial? Here is a supposedly independent witness, totally separate from the Avery clan, but they didn't use his golden testimony?

Strange.

Especially since they used his statements to justify searching the fire pit. Or did they need him to say that to justify it?

I suppose its a chicken/egg scenario....

[–]parminides

Maybe because no on disputed the fire at the trial. This has been a very recent phenomenon.

[–]ScousePie

    Why wasn't he used in trial? Here is a supposedly independent witness, totally separate from the Avery clan, but they didn't use his golden testimony?

They had other witnesses who could testify to the fire happening and that was the entire evidentiary value of his testimony.

[–]Classic_Griswald

    They had other witnesses who could testify to the fire happening and that was the entire evidentiary value of his testimony.

Every other witness that testified to this has produced conflicting testimony/statements.

For us, its also about how they came to find the evidence they did. They used his statement to justify looking into the pit, they then found bones. They then failed to document it properly.

So I'd like to know if he volunteered the information, or if it was suggested to him, the way Fassbender liked to suggest things in the Dassey interviews. Interesting note, it was also Fassbender who took a call when the bones were found, no one did anything, deciding to wait on DCI to show up with 'proper equipment', at some point though the decision was made to proceed this way, not to properly document the scene, not to call the coroner.

As much as Sturdivant would like to claim he's responsible for that, he does not have the authority. So someone in a position of authority made this decision. Whoever he conferred with to wait until DCI arrived, also was aware of the find, and the fact pictures weren't on the agenda.

Given that the entire genesis of this sordid discovery starts with Radandt's statement.

If the all the MTSO/CASO agents are totally innocent (as Colborn states in his email), and as they claim just a bunch of "Oops" accidents happened (which coincidentally happened with every piece of important evidence)....I digress, if that is true, then Radandt should be of much more importance in the investigation, and under extreme scrutiny, since he was frequently showing up to the site (documented in the logs). And even with ownership, I'm not sure the reason he'd have to be in and out of there that frequently (unless he was directed to by police), and his statements lead to the discovery of one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case, which was claimed to have been planted.

If there was proper documentation we'd have answers and the questions wouldn't even have to be asked. Well, I mean if the original pictures showed that the bones were placed there, for instance, it would bring into serious question J.R.'s motives.

[–]sjj342

    So I'd like to know if he volunteered the information, or if it was suggested to him, the way Fassbender liked to suggest things in the Dassey interviews. Interesting note, it was also Fassbender who took a call when the bones were found, no one did anything, deciding to wait on DCI to show up with 'proper equipment', at some point though the decision was made to proceed this way, not to properly document the scene, not to call the coroner.

Tinfoil hat time - what if this is fabricated only for purposes of warrants, documentation, etc.? That would explain why he's never called as a witness, why he's allowed on the property so many times. Collaborating on a story?

It at least gives them probable cause and what not to go through the burn pile and what not in the event that's ever challenged.

It also creates "evidence" that you can use to charge other witnesses with obstruction/accessory/what not or pressure other witnesses to change their statements and concede there was a fire. You know - "We know there was a fire. We found bones. We know he burned her there. How can you not remember the fire? You had to have seen a fire. It would have been a large fire. Are you lying to us?"

It is admittedly completely insane and probably require too much foresight, but it fits their behavior.

Viewed skeptically, it starts to seem really staged - the Nov 4 flyover to figure out where to put the RAV4? The Nov 5-7 visits from Radandt to coordinate and figure out where/how to plant the "bones" from the quarry and agree on a story for the statements/reports?

[–]ScousePie 

    So I'd like to know if he volunteered the information

I would assume that he did since it was given on November 5th before they had interviewed any of the Avery/Dasseys.

[–]sjj342 

He's typically signing out within 30 min, in some cases I think within 10 min. Doubtful he's going to work, as the time of day doesn't appear to be consistent and the durations aren't long enough. There's presumably a number of other means of ingress/egress that wouldn't require going through a police detail and signing logs, and I think most normal people would just do that instead.

I ctrl+f'd the trial testimony for Radandt - there is discussion of Radandt (no first name) digging out silt ponds on the quarry on Nov 6 and 7. Does not mention who (I think there are multiple Radandt's or it could've been an employee). All other references to Radandt appear to refer to the property (not a person). It's in testimony by Lt. Bowe.

* * * * * 

The Bones Found at Radandt's Quarry Part 2:

http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-bones-found-at-radandts-quarry-burn.html