http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-land-grab-theory-they-were-hoping.html
Quarry Burn Pile Location is Actually County Burn Pile
By chromeomykiss at TickTockManitowoc
January 11, 2017
http://imgur.com/a/mznGs
Above is a look at the location of the GPS coordinates given in Exhibit 402 of where pelvic bones (sacrum and innominate fragments) were found in the quarry and later examined by forensic anthropologists Leslie Eisenberg AND Dr. Kenneth Bennett (ilium bone is innominate).
The 2005 Aerial Image Layer is selected so the imagery reflects the area.
The red outlines parcels owned by Manitowoc County (seen on side and bottom) and run by the County Highway Department, which has since rented the land to store wind tower parts as evidenced in current aerial imagery.
The small blue dots represent the 44N 15' 51" and 87W 41' 51" GPS coordinates (as seen in the top right corner showing the Lat/Long coordinates), the location of the "quarry" pile per Exhibit 402. It should be noted that 44N 15' 52" is just north and starts directly above the property/parcel line and that parcel WAS owned by Fred Radandt and Sons in 2005 and is since in the ownership of Badgerland Aggregates [Joshua Radandt's company in partnership with Bill Vachon].
So the question becomes, why did Manitowoc County deflect on the ownership of this property in trial and in Exhibit 402 and refer to it as the just a "quarry" pile?
Also why is Dr. Eisenberg not willing to make a definitive identification of those bones as human, calling them instead "possible human bone fragments," when Dr Bennett had made a preliminary identification and filed a two-page report on November 10, 2005 that the ilium bone fragment that he examined was human and female?
The ilium bone was from the quarry, per page 3 of Criminal Complaint:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Criminal-Complaint.pdf
From all of the research I've done from available sources and reports is the only bone fragments with pelvic features and the iliac crest part of the ilium bone are under Evidence Tag 8675, which are associated to the "quarry burn pile" in the CASO Evidence Log. It is interesting that they exhibit cut marks just as the bones that came from the Janda burn barrel exhibited cut marks, according to Exhibit 401.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trial-Exhibit-401-Eisenberg-Pics-of-Cut-Marks-on-Halbach-Remains.pdf
I think it's the cut marks that made Kratz, et al, try to stay as far away from it as possible. It goes completely against their narrative because it obviously
suggests that either she was killed elsewhere or that she was
dismembered and her remains were sprinkled around various places. [Minerva8918]
Here is a a wider shot of this area so we can see where it is in relation to Avery Salvage Yard:
This perspective also raises the other issue of access to the roads that the Rav4 may have covertly traveled on the night of the November 4, 2005 to access the conveyor road, as Kathleen Zellner stated in her motion.
[–]mursieftw on Steven Avery burning the body in his burn area behind his garage:
Well - If I were going to burn a body, I certainly wouldn't start the fire with it. I'd get one going...have it up and burning... maybe people even see it up and running and think nothing of it because at 4:30 to sunset it's just a regular trash fire. Then comes sunset... everyone has scurried away... I'm going to say 6pm which is right after getting off the phone call with Jodi... head into the garage and get the body from the back of the rav4... dump it into the already going fire... add some more accelerants... let it burn for an hour.... then call BD at 7pm... burn for another 4 to 5 hours until 11:30 / midnight.
The guy is so guilty it makes me sick. You can literally map it all out. 2:45 he strikes... god knows what sexual assault activity he does from 2:45pm to about 4:00pm. Then it sets in.... clean up... what to do. He stores body in rav4.... quickly get's a burn pit fire going.... throws her effects in his burn barrel and burns it... remembers "oh crap... is her phone going to ring in that burn barrel"... and calls it at 4:35pm just to make sure it wont ring. Hangs up four rings in once he is sure it definitely will not ring... let's the fire continue to burn... heads inside for a quick 15 minute call with jodi... then at 6pm..begins his work.. puts body in... burns... at 7pm brings BD over... cleans the garage spot with gas/bleach/etc... throws her clothes and more garbage bags in the fire... a van seat.. .tires... more and more... manages the fire till 8:45... goes in and talks for 15 mins to jodi - comes back out and tends the fire till midnight.
[–]MsMinxster
god knows what sexual assault activity he does from 2:45pm to about 4:00pm.
Where? There was not a spec of Teresa's DNA in the trailer. Where was she murdered? In the garage? Where is the blood? SA somehow managed to clean every trace blood spatter in that dump of a garage?
2:45 he strikes...
How? He pulls a shotgun on her in broad daylight right in front of Barb Janda's house and forces her into his trailer? Then what? There's no evidence anyone was manacled or tied with a rope to the bed. So does SA keep the shotgun trained at her during the supposed sexual assault? Please explain how that works.
[–]ews0605
Another question for you, does him tending the fire until midnight means that it is extinguished at midnight? (No it does not). What is the formula for determining how broken down a body will be?
degradation=(heat/body mass * water weight+muscle+fat)/bone density
The fact of the matter remains, the heat wouldn't be sufficient to completely annihilate a body the way hers purportedly was.
[–]mursieftw
Here you go bud: Open Fire Cremation
Let me give you a highlight too:
Detailed pictures of an actual open fire cremation: Here is an example of a pig cremation (with photos) originally posted by bugdog1 . The pig was 220lbs, was burnt on an open fire with no accelerants and with minimal agitation. It was reduced to ash and bone fragments in 6 hours, judging by the pictures it was almost complete at 4 hours.
http://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol37/tbl2.htm www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol37/burial.pdf
As you can see, an open fire is very possible to cremate a body to nothing expert testimony in this case agree that the burn pit was used to cremate TH the accelerants used to do this job are listed in that link a 220 lb pig was burnt to literally NOTHING in six hours with zero accerlerants on an open pit..and was basically done in FOUR hours.
[–]ews0605
Pig's aren't humans. They likely have different bone density and I would venture to say that they are composed of more fat than a 135 pound woman.
[–]ews0605
The thing is that the purported fire occurred on 10/31 and there isn't mention of a fire after that. Furthermore, he was convicted on a single story, not several theories thrown together. The idea is to attack that single theory the way it was presented in the COURT OF LAW.
[–]Moonborne
OK, now I definitely think Radandt had something to do with this.
[–]desertsky1
yet another young man with the "off to hunting" line for that time frame on that day....did this guy know Scott and/or Bobby D? Where is Josh's hunting cabin? I realize it's common to deer hunt in those parts, but it was late in the day in the fall and clocks had already been set back.
[–]Traveler430
The only thing I'm interested in is, if he was investigated for the bones found on his property just like SA was on his.
[–]AConanDoyle[S]
It was his property that the burn site with bones was found?
[–]Traveler430
Yep.
[–]AConanDoyle[S]
That is incredible.
Any chance you know if there is a road connecting the west twin river bridge to the Radandt hunting cabins?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4aoxrs/west_twin_river_bridge_and_the_isolated_cabin/
Is this the same cabin?
[–]Traveler430
Well that cabin is far away from the gravel pit, but the gravel quarry is accessible thru Kuss road or Jambo creek.
[–]AConanDoyle[S]
Yes, Jambo creek is easy access from Highway 147, the direction Steve reported Teresa heading and the Quarry.
[–]curiousaboutthis2
You might be able to find something by looking here:
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/maps.html
Looks like they include rustic and forest roads.
[–]lmogier
Add to that the question of where is all of this in relation to where the Averys saw lights those two nights.... (Thursday, Nov 3rd, and Friday, Nov 4th)?
Would it have been the path or area one would take to get from JR's to where they found either the car, the quarry, burn areas etc....
[–]AConanDoyle
Here is the location of burn pit where the pelvis bones were found on the Radandt quarry.
https://i.imgur.com/yyUuhNU.jpg
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ynu20/the_bones_at_the_quarry/
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
ok a good start..does anyone have the location of the phone found by Sturm?
Go to the link below for the location of the phone found near East Twin River:
http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/search/label/Pam%20Sturm%20Finds%20Cell%20Phone%20and%20Papers
[–]Refukulator
Only a vague description.
No, this was about -- the river is about a quarter mile from the actual town.
It's starts about page 233, KK's direct of PoG (Pam Sturm)
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf
[–]hos_gotta_eat_too
Mishicot...turnaround at the river..John Campion..got it.
[–]Canicomment
The location of the cabin is on twitter 0hour posted about it about a week or two ago. It was also on Fb and there is a gate before you enter the cabin.
[–]AConanDoyle
I think the locked swinging gates to the Quarry are the most interesting place she could go with her Rav4. I want to see if the gates match the damage profile on the front of the RAV4.
[–]VillageIdiot34
yes! from day one they said some bones were also found in a nearby quarry. I always assumed the avery's owned that quarry.
[–]AConanDoyle
Honestly initially I seriously doubted S. Avery's innocence; I thought it would be an impossible coincidence someone could have access to the Avery yard, have means and motive to be involved in Teresa's disappearance.
The entirety of the crime scene and investigation seems to make complete sense now, including refusal/dismissal of the coroner and the experts that were set to come investigate.
[–]AConanDoyle
And low profile in the investigation as well; notice it is hearsay: "I heard someone else mention that Joshua said", except for the police log and this report, plausible deniability is in place.
Who is the owner of the Quarry where the burn site with bones was found?
[–]sjj342
Who is the owner of the Quarry where the burn site with bones was found?
If I am following correctly, the Radandt's.
The question is, who was that someone? Have to check Jost's testimony to see if it identifies who...
ETA - Jost conveniently didn't testify, and neither did Radandt (even though he's on witness lists). You would think the state would want to call those people... Radandt in particular should've been a better witness on fire size than ST or the others they called that had statements littered with inconsistencies.
[–]knowjustice
I believe it is now owned by Badgerland Aggregates. Owners, Josh Radant and Bill Vachon. The received a permit in 2015 to expand operatation of a non-metallic mining operation on 34 acres between Cherney Road and Jambo Road.
BA owns quite a bit of property on Cherney Road in the Town of Gibson. Some of the property abuts Avery's.
http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/taxquery/main.htm Search municipalities, Town of Gibson.
townofgibsonwi.com/uploads/meetings/June%202015%20minutes.pdf
[–]Refukulator
https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/2004/202087.htm
The registered agent for Badgerland Aggregates shares a last name with the Vinton Construction boys.
http://www.bizapedia.com/wi/BADGERLAND-AGGREGATES-LLC.html
I have a friend in the dirt business, she tells me that it's hinky as hell.
[–]AConanDoyle
And from this thread more involvement in bonfire discussions with Bryan Dassey, Joshua Radandt:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
"I asked BRYAN how many times STEVEN has burned in that pit and he said about once to twice a month. BRYAN said the reason why he did not think anything of it was because JOSHUA RADANDT, the owner of the gravel pit, was clearing brush and STEVE had offered to burn that for him."
The interview in which the above quote was taken happened on 2/27. Is he telling the truth or somehow trying to offer an explanation after the fact as to how TH's bones might have gotten into SAs fire pit?
[–]Refukulator
I think we need to resurrect this thread and perhaps dig a little deeper.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
[–]youngrell
Wasn't Steven going to burn brush on behalf of Radandt? So effectively Radandt knew Avery would be having a fire?
He also has rear access to the property and knows the place well. He could also be interested in acquiring the Avery land as others have mentioned.
Food for thought.
[–]Odilion
I'd be curious to know if this person has any criminal history or questionable past behavior as do so many people linked to this case.
[–]honeygirl71
Another thing to consider is how did that brush get brought over? Was it dumped all at once by equipment? Was anything hidden in the brush, if so? I would assume even if Steven is nice enough to burn it, it was probably brought to him...
[–]Canuck64
But at court Blaine testified that the pit behind the garage has only been used once, when he acknowledged having bonfires at Steve's other burn pit. Curious where the other burn pit is?
[–]AConanDoyle
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
This suit originates from a contract granted to MC in 2005. Of interest to me are threats to drop the suit otherwise Radandt gets no more business w/city:
Fred Radandt Sons Inc. is suing the city of Manitowoc for allegedly awarding two contracts to Manitowoc County without competitively bidding the work.
Fred Radandt Sons Inc is one of several businesses owned by the Radandts
Does anyone know where I can do a historical deed search? Several parcels in MC are currently owned by "Radandt Development" in MC. I'd like to know what they owned in 2005."
[–]knowjustice
They owned a number of businesses in 2005. Fred Radant and Sons filed Chapter 11 in 2014. The docs are online.
[–]AConanDoyle
IF Zellner is correct and Steve is in fact innocent, my opinion is the real story of Teresa's disappearance is going to involve in some significant way the Radandt's quarry.
[–]jello1388
They really seemed to minimize the burn pile in the quarry as being important. He just happened to move some of her remains, but not all of them, or even most of them? The only reason I can think of why, is because it hurts the case against SA by casting reasonable doubt. I'm right there with you.
[–]AConanDoyle
I could be completely off base but I am leaning towards initially a shallow grave in the quarry. Second thoughts, then a bonfire at the quarry, followed up by using the 5 gallon buckets [or a 55 gallon burn barrel] to transport cremains to the burn pit by Steve's house.
It seems somewhat unlikely Steve would bring human remains and place them outside his window.
Also it is unclear if 4 burn barrels are behind the Janda residence, where is the barrel with the cell phone found, I believe it was found in a field, which makes five barrels, another mystery...
[–]Devlyn99
The 5th burn barrel was across the road. This is where the phone & camera were found. You can see Barb's van in the top of the picture of the 1st one. 2nd pic shows the barrel in relation to the driveway & houses.
http://imgur.com/7FrqiXv
http://imgur.com/cLw2qMs
More on the burn barrels at the following link:
The Burn Barrels, DNA Profiles Developed But Not Matched to Anyone, and Charred Muscle Used to Identify Bones as Belonging to Teresa Halbach
[–]curiousaboutthis2
Wasn't Steven helping him (Joshua) burn stuff?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/409ewx/bryan_dassey_interview_02272006_exhibit_89/
[–]CopperPipeDream
On Halloween night?
[–]curiousaboutthis2
I don't know, but it seems like it was quite a bit of brush that was burned over a period of time. So it is possible and if he knew that, why would he think it odd? They were both trying to burn piles of brush, seeing a fire shouldn't have raised an eyebrow.
[–]Refukulator
Unfortunately the SoW charges for detailed information regarding corporate filings, but I did find this on Badgerland Aggregates LLC.
http://www.bizapedia.com/wi/BADGERLAND-AGGREGATES-LLC.html
Jeffrey Maples Lincoln Avenue Two Rivers, WI 54241
The address matches up with the Wisconsin Department of Financial Institutions records.
https://www.wdfi.org/apps/CorpSearch/Search.aspx?
Triangulate that address on Lincoln Avenue with the County Assessors website and you get...
http://www.manitowoccounty.com/taxquery/main.htm
A blank. Nothing. At least from what I could find. Search by name, address, City of Two Rivers, Town of Two Rivers, nothing...nada....
What is really interesting, is this, it's been brought up on this subreddit before.
https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/2004/202087.htm
FOUR WISCONSIN ROAD CONSTRUCTION EXECUTIVES ARRESTED ON BID RIGGING AND WIRE FRAUD CHARGES
Road Construction Projects Worth More than $100 Million to State of Wisconsin
According to the criminal complaints and affidavit filed yesterday in the U.S. District Court in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and unsealed today, James J. Maples, President of Vinton Construction Company of Manitowoc, Wisconsin; Michael J. Maples, Vice President of Vinton; Ernest J. Streu, President of Streu Construction Company of Two Rivers, Wisconsin; and John Streu, Secretary/Treasurer of Streu, rigged bids submitted to WisDOT and others from as early as 1997 until the present. James and Michael Maples reside in Manitowoc and Ernest and John Streu reside in Two Rivers.
Want to bet a dollar that Jeff is related to Jim and Mike ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
[–]yowzapete
This isn't relavent to the SA situation, but here's info about what he and his family was up to in 2006:
http://iuoe139.org/uploads/newsletters/april_2006_newsletter.pdf
[–]devisan
Interesting. If nothing else, it's fairly good evidence that Manitowoc County is corrupt as anywhere else. The fact that the Radandts weren't suing for money makes me inclined to believe their side.
MC wouldn't be the only place in America where municipalities hand out business to their buds in flagrant violation of the law, but it's a pretty scummy thing to do.
[–]forthefreefood
I work on crime scenes and while it is normal for neighbors to stand and watch, it's not typical for them to come over and actually be on the property watching what we are doing. We would ask them to leave. Furthermore, if this moment was when he passed on the information about the "larger than usual" fire, unprompted that is, that's suspicious in my eyes.
It's not about what people want to hear. You gave an idea and some people don't find it to be particularly reasonable. That being said, I'm sure there are other more reasonable reasons for him to be there, I just can't think of any ATM.
[–]devisan
It was a secured site by 11am. That said, some searchers did manage to wander on, and they came through from the quarry, where there wasn't a check point. But LEOs saw them pretty quickly, found out who they were, and IIRC told them to go search some areas off site.
Had Radandt wandered onto the site, he'd have been stopped by officers and advised to leave. If they didn't advise him to leave, then that's because they felt they had business with him. Possibly just taking a statement, who knows. But it does make sense to wonder.
[–]sjj342
"larger than usual"
The larger than usual is hearsay, i.e., what Jost said he heard someone say about what someone else (Radandt) told that someone... perhaps to give him probable cause to sift through the Avery's burn pit. There's no way to know whether Radandt actually used the term "larger than usual", and it reads like how the someone is describing it to Jost.
[–]headstilldown
Well, You have to also wonder then, if Joshua is the one who KNEW Steve offered to burn his brush, why then would it surprise him enough to bother with "larger than usual", when he himself knew very well what he was likely burning?
[–]sjj342
If only the State would've called him to testify about the fire... that would've been helpful to the case, no? To me, Radandt's absence from trial based on this report is telling, and it seems like this gets closer to establishing a link between the quarry burn site and the planting of the bones...
I just noted elsewhere - cynically, it seems like "someone" brought it up on the 8th for a specific reason (Radandt was there on the 5th so the information could've been acted on earlier), knowing that the bones now had been transported from the quarry site to the Avery site. This makes sense that (1) the "someone" did not want to directly be the one to discover the bones and would prefer to have that done by someone else ignorant of the planting, and (2) that the bones were not transferred until after November 5 once they essentially have the area cordoned off, the search party is not present, and the number of officers on the scene diminishes.
Neither Jost nor Radandt testified, so those are deadends... would need to look at the log for Nov 8, strike out Jost and Sturdivant, and then keep going through to figure out who "someone" is. If it's Colburn (who has a history of not documenting things like this)....
[–]ScousePie
Yeah, it seems highly unlikely he was there on the 8th, so it just gets more odd... Why didn't it come up on the 5th? If so, why did they wait until the 8th?
Well, it looks like from the report that the information Radandt is second-hand information that someone told to Jost.
Why is he the one to put all the pieces together on Nov. 8th? I don't know.
[–]ScousePie
He says he remembered the information regarding Radandt so I take that to mean he at least knew before deciding to initiate a more detailed search of Avery's burn pit. This is another thing that I would say warrants some investigation by our sleuths.
[–]headstilldown
The relationship between Radandts and Averys would indeed go back many, many years. Sure would be nice to find an understanding about it.
I've always been completely confused as to why there is a gravel conveyor or the remnants of one that seems to cross between the two worlds. Did Avery sell gravel back in the day ? Or, shall I assume that perhaps before Avery's had as many cars, some of the land was actually used by Radandt... they may have had financial agreements to allow Radant to extract sand or gravel priced per yard. Then when Avery needed the space, they just slowly took their property back.
The conveyors existence in, around and over the top of the cars has a history of some sort.
[–]mrvitolives
Is it possible the Radandt's used to own the Avery property as a load/storage zone and the Averys bought it? How long have the Avery's owned the land... Because, come to think of it, the same last names pop up all over the area, but you don't see many more Averys.
[–]headstilldown
I'd have to think Avery's were there LONG before the gravel pits expanded around them. The Avery name was a good and respected name for many years as I personally recall hearing it back in the early 60's. Uncle whatshisname Avery was always at the county firefighter picnics.... I remember his big hat and badge walking around at them keeping the drunks at bay.
[–]mrvitolives
Oh cool. How long did you live around there?
[–]headstilldown
MANY years. Born there..... Spent time in that exact Radandt pit partying.... as well as many other pits of theirs. The ponds in them always attracted teens on warm summer days.
Of course, those were the days when a few 16-17 years olds could actually enjoy a cold beer and when and if a cop came, he'd advise you to pour it out, give you a look over to see if you are still capable of driving, then move on with a simple warning.
Now you MUST be PUNISHED to the full extent of the law, so the rest of your life is SHIT just because you actually were a kid once.
The world has gone completely insane. It's just that the majority has been conditioned to not notice.
[–]chromeomykiss
The earliest geospatial imagery or aerial maps from 1992 on Google Earth show that in 1992 that southern area of the Avery 40 acre parcel was ponds and active quarry with the conveyor extending down to the inside edge of the Avery Yard. The entire area where the Rav4 was found and the crusher located was also a pond.
Not sure what it would have looked like just 7 years earlier in 1985 when SA was sent away the first time.
Also where does Roland Johnson fit in with owning just the tiny back section where the SA trailer was located...and Roland Johnson letting Jodi stay there originally after her eviction and while SA was living in the ice fishing shanty.
[–]smash-_-
Right... So there was Martinez, Zipperer, RH, ST, SB, BC and now Radandt. But they solely went after SA. Ok then.
[–]stOneskull
it was the propane truck driver dude!
[–]trapjaw9920
That dude is my cousin.. and I can PROMISE you on this one, he's all good.
[–]Jmystery1
Did they ever ask him for his paperwork? I do not think he did it, was just curious about paperwork as in does he write down times? I guess this would really help to know time he was filling up and time he seen suv?
[–]trapjaw9920
That's a good question. I guess it's possible he would have to list the times for work, but really I think it's a matter of habit where he does the same thing at the same time every day, hence why he didn't give an exact time that he saw what he saw.
[–]stOneskull
Josh Radandt sued Manitowoc County:
http://dailyreporter.com/2006/02/14/contractor-sues-manitowoc-over-award/
[–]curiousaboutthis2
Here is some more stuff:
https://yosemite.epa.gov/oa/rhc/epaadmin.nsf/Filings/F82B9C55193F5F40852578F2001B7E87/$File/CAA-05-2011-0047%20CAFO%208-18-2011.PDF
Read page 7:
http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/upload/29/Board%20of%20Adjustment%20Minutes%206-15-15.pdf
[–]Jmystery1
Found this info about Radandt and were actually helping dig and involved in search?
Radandt
Jury Trial Transcript – Day 4 – 2007Feb15
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-4-2007Feb15.pdf
Pg 62 So Radandt agreed to dig two of those ponds out while we watched them do it.
Pg 69-70
Q. Are you familiar with a surrounding property which is called Radandt's Quarry?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Again, referring to Exhibit 79, if you could tell us where that is located.
A. Radandt has -- Let's see. This is the north on this end. Radandt has an active quarry from here down, which would be to the west. They also had a quarry on the south end, which would be in this area here.
Q. From Radandt's Quarry, or from at least the access corner, the corner that would attach.
Pg 73-78
A. That was a camp that Radandts used. They own most of the land around this area and they used that for deer hunting. It consisted of three mobile homes that they had set up for deer hunting or something of that nature.
[–]thisismeingradenine
What the hell is this, 29 - confidential informant??
[–]tds166
This is what I had wrote on the post contain the investigative notes:
I see two places on page 13 where you can make out partial letters. I believe this is what everyone is referring to. The first is in the 3rd paragraph, 1st blocked out name, ending in what appears to be a T. If you look at there 4th paragraph, based on what is visible on the top right, the last letter of the first name has to be a "I", "N", "H", "M", or "J", since that has to be the right most part of the letter based on the spacing to the next word. Based on how the report is structured, the first time the name is used they write the full name. So in the second paragraph, 1st blocked out name has to be the full name. Based on the spacing it has to be a short first and last name to fit. What is odd though is the 1st blocked out spot in the 3rd paragraph, where it appears to end in a "T". Surprised that they would enter the full name again in the next paragraph. The report typically then references the first name from then on. Can't see it just saying "INFORMANT" since there would be no reason to hide that, especially since informal is not capitalized in this section of the report and is not blocked out anyway. So would assume its the full name again. The sections blocking the first name can't be any more then more then 3 letters. Looking at the other names, KIM DUCAT does fit those specifics and based on measuring spacing of capital letters does fit in the full name spots. That assumes her first name is KIM and not KIMBERLY, since they use actual names in the report. Last name could be 4 letters and not 5. Are there any other full names, that we would know about, which could also fit?
[–]Tfor10
I have always wondered about Josh Radandt and the guy he signed in at the same time with, Travis Groelle. Did a little research a few weeks ago and found he may be an amateur race car driver (Travis) but that was it. Always found it weird how they were the only 2 people with no ties to any sort of association that signed in that day. I posted something a few weeks ago but never got much back about travis.....
[–]AConanDoyle
By coincidence he may live right next to the Devils River State Trail just 7 minutes south on Highway Q.
[–]curiousaboutthis2
A Groelle owns an excavation company, maybe another case of LE using their equipment:
[–]curiousaboutthis2
An interesting last name in this obit:
http://www.tributes.com/show/Milton-R.-Groelle-91139457
The Groelles are related to the Remikers.
[–]tinyfinn
Everyone in this town is connected. Bizarre for a big city girl to put together.
[–]sleuthing_hobbyist
I have mentioned this before that there is some kind of conveyor that extends into the Avery's junkyard from the Radandt quarry.
Where do you get the information that joshua was going to a hunting cabin late at night on halloween?
Is there any information on the relationship between joshua and people like steve, scott, bobby etc?
I thought that Earl/Steve went into that quarry to set sights on their guns. Did they get along with radandt, and he allowed them to do that?
[–]AConanDoyle
From one of Jost's CASO reports:
"Earlier, when I had been in the command post area, I remembered someone mentioning that JOSHUA RADANDT had checked on his hunting trailers on Monday evening. He saw there was a large fire burning near STEVEN Avery's property. The fire was described as being 'larger than usual.' I, Sgt Jost, started to piece all of this information together. I felt this area, if not already looked at, should be checked for any type of evidence. When Officer Mignon returned, I spoke with her about my feelings of the burn pile. She stated she also felt that something was unusual with that area."
They then found the magic single bone labeled BV laying on the grass....
[–]sleuthing_hobbyist
It's says Monday evening. Is it late night?
But, interesting to note that this was 11/7 or 11/8 that this was noted, so this might be the first mention of a bonfire at Avery's. Right?
I had not seen this report before.
[–]AConanDoyle
Exactly, this seems to be the seed for the bonfire stories, it is also followed up by Jost finding the only bone with mtdna, laying not in the pit but on the grass.
Where this bonfire was and who was in attendance is still very speculative, it seems after dark Halloween is reasonable assumption given the description relayed by Jost. It could be a description of the quarry fire, more real discovery is required to be definitive.
There is still no definitive proof yet that Joshua even said this. It is Jost who ascribes the command tent conversation as naming Joshua as seeing a large bonfire Halloween night.
He uses it to explain, much like Pam Sturm, his complex rationale for searching the burn pit, which he notes other experts probably already searched, and then finding, on the grass, the bone fragment and later the the skull fragment.
[–]curiousaboutthis2
Are they still the owners of the quarry? This is a bankruptcy filed in 2014. Or is this for a different business they owned?
[–]mmh150
I think you are missing the subtleties of our thought processes. There were bones found on the Radandt property plus blood brought into evidence. If they were there at the quarry (no matter who) using it as a primary burn pit or crime scene then, and if he was so ubiquitous at the time then perhaps it is something that needs to be addressed. What part could it have been?
70's murder of a young woman found in Radandt gravel pit? Only Miles from the one Halbach's bones were found? And to top it off this guy said he was innocent too......
18-year-old vanishes in Manitowoc in 1977, body found in a gravel pit at Radandt's quarry, man finds her personal items in his car, panics, throws them in the river. Cops find those personal items in the river along with a parking ticket with his name on it, arrest man, he's convicted of murder of the girl but claims innocence. In a nutshell.
Debra Sukowaty disappeared on September 24, 1977. On October 1, 1977, the police received a purse containing Sukowaty's identification and several other items which were found in a plastic bag in a nearby river. Among the items contained in the bag was a parking ticket, traceable to Ronald Fencl's car. Detective Geigel of the Two Rivers Police Department visited Fencl that same day to inquire about Sukowaty. Fencl stated that he did not know Sukowaty or anything about the items found in the river.
At approximately 4 p.m. on October 2, 1977, Geigel again visited Fencl. At this meeting Fencl told Geigel that he wanted to talk to his attorney and that he would get back to him. Half an hour later Fencl went to the police station. He told Geigel that he had found the items in his car and threw them into the river in order to avoid any trouble with the police. Geigel had to cut their conversation short because he received a call informing him that a body had been found in a nearby gravel pit. Fencl agreed to meet with him later that evening. In the meantime, the body was identified as Sukowaty. The police then impounded Fencl's car.
There are two issues presented on this appeal: (1) Did Attorney Alpert's questionable conduct deny Fencl his constitutional right to effective counsel? (2) Did the district attorney unconstitutionally imply Fencl's guilt by referring at trial to Fencl's prearrest silence?
The victim's body was discovered on October 2 in a gravel pit. Testimony at trial revealed that Mr. Fencl had previously gone to the gravel pit area on several occasions with his girlfriend "to park." Tr. (Day 4) at 43. Forensic evidence indicated that a hair was found in the back seat of Mr. Fencl's 1962 Chevrolet that "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty" was similar to Ms. Sukowaty's hair. Tr. (Day 4) at 103. The victim died from at least three forceful blows to the skull. The pathologist determined that there was no blood on any part of the body except on the clothing about the shoulders. The absence of blood elsewhere on the body indicated that the victim had been killed at the spot where the body had been found. The pathologist testified that the victim's blood had drained out of the skull into the ground. The pathologist estimated that he performed the autopsy eight days after the victim had died. [Source]
Guilters say "there is no such thing as coincidence" regarding Avery?
by hos_gotta_eat_too
Let's go over some coincidences in 3 cases:
Avery vs. Mataya vs. Fencl
We all know Avery's case, so the other two is what I want to look at.
With Avery, the key factor to me is that her items were separate from her body in the burn pit..they sat in a burn barrel.
Mataya. According to his step-daughter, her items were seen in the trunk of a police car, possessed by a cop with "scars on his face".
Fencl: Her items were found in a plastic bag in the river. Odd that Sturm found some items on a riverbed, a cell phone and business papers, a day or two after TH's car was found, but before the items were located in the burn barrel.
Starting on page 233:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf
Lawyers:
Fencl's attorney basically worked against him (assisting the prosecution), and was used to testify against him after being taken off of Fencl's case. His attorney, Alpert, wanted to write a book on the case. Fencle was described as very friendly when being questioned about the missing girl. Avery was decribed by Colborn as very cordial. Wonder why they HAVE to report on what their demeanor is...that's odd.
Now on to Mataya. Mataya's trial...Denny rule. What a surprise. As mentioned, the victim's items were said to be in the trunk of a cop's car. Seperate from the body as well, just like Fencl, just like Avery. As we have all suspected, Barb and Scott (and the boys) may have been asked..or even pressured to testify against Avery. In Mataya's case, their main witness was a guy who was asking for pending charges to be dropped to tell police what he knew about Mataya, saying that he attacked and killed the girl. Bit her (that's a weird detail to put in)...that he bleached his jeans, and cleaned his car. In Avery's case, we have cops looking for bleached jeans, after cleaning an area of the garage. Odd, huh?
Mataya had a witness who said he was in jail with the witness against Mataya and says Mataya confessed to him that he was lying to police just to get charges dropped. Of course, Mataya still sits in prison, so the police must pick and choose which convict shared information is valid (re: torture chamber.."avery said he did it" statement from inmate)..
All this said, I think we have a working schematic of the system in Manitowoc.
3 cases, 3 men claiming innocence. 3 cases of bodies found but seperate from their personal items. lots of characteristics that seem to mirror each other.
So I have to ask this...if "Steven Avery has too many coincidences to be innocent"...wouldn't you say that Manitowoc's efforts to solve crimes with what seems like unsavory practices (attorneys turning on clients, dropping charges for witnesses, shady details of cleanups) are a bit too coincidental to overlook as well?
*******
The Land Grab Theory:
They were hoping the Averys would sell everything they owned, in particular, the salvage yard, to provide Brendan with an attorney. The Avery property is the motive for a lot of this. They are the last holdout: all surrounding property is held by the same owner, and the Avery land is right in the middle of a very large holding, so it's pretty clear that they are in the way... The Avery's 40-acrea property is in Dolores Avery's name.
Fassbender/Weigert strange suggestion to BJ-T
By CopperPipeDream at Reddit
March 27, 2016
I usually hesitate to post something like this but I just about fell off the couch when I read this on twitter. It was posted to the Family Facebook page after concerns were raised about the fund raising.
http://imgur.com/C9ut41s (image above: Barbara Ellen is Brendan's mother, formerly Barb Janda and now Barb Tadych)
Since when do Fassbender and Weigert have anybody's "best interest" at heart? Best interest concerning who or what and how on God's green earth could Barb even begin to trust them after their role in Brendan's take down?!
Hey, we wrecked the fuck out of your son Brendan's life and probably let a murdering murderer continue on with their daily life, here is some sound financial advice about debt consolidation, chapter 7 vs. chapter 11 bankruptcy and an in depth financial analysis of what's in your collective best interest going forward in your shattered and dystopian future.
[–]MellieInMi
This is the part where they were telling Barb it would be in her best interest to move (from Brendan's March 1, 2006 interrogation video):
https://youtu.be/65sr1ZjrQi0?t=13670
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
I think Barb is completely helpless. She needed SA to sell her van. She initially thought BD's confession was a misunderstanding that SA could clear up with a phone call. (Her call to SA that started with yelling and ended with I love yous) Then she acts powerless to do anything about Kachinsky - requiring SA to pound some sense into her.
I think the woman is passive to the point that she completely helpless. And to top it off, she is clearly not that bright.
FTR, the van was parked so far away from the bus stop that it was unlikely that the bus driver saw anything. In fact, her testimony was completely off. TH had left the Avery property and was at the Zipperer house by 3pm. (I happen to think KZ has cell records that place TH next to the Zipperer property at 2:41pm)
There is no evidence that she ever returned to the Averys.
[–]14MGh057
I agree that the bus driver did not see TH taking pics of that van that day. It was too far down the drive-way. However, she testified seeing someone taking pics of a junked car(s) near the place she would drop off the kids (& maybe was another day). So either, TH was stopped by someone else at the end of the long driveway after she left SAs trailer, what's it called..a hot shot, cold shot..i can't remember. Or the bus driver saw her another day taking pics near the drop off point. But that day, the auto was not at the end, it was in from of Barbs trailer and SAs trailer. Convenient for all, except SA.
Maybe you see Barb as helpless, and I see the same characteristics, as BJ following the instruction(s) of ST. Maybe we call it something different. I respect your opinion on her intent; however, in the past few days, after reading the last batch of documents and cross-checking with initial testimony, it is becoming obvious who is lying, who is oblivious, who are the puppets, and who are the puppet masters.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
The timing is all wrong. Bus driver says she saw TH at 3:30-3:45.
That's completely impossible. TH was in and out of the Avery property between 2:27 and 2:41. That 2:41 call is going to place TH away from the Avery property - I am sure of it. TH made it to the Zipperer appointment at 3pm just as JoEllen testified.
Zellner:
Cellphone tower records of SA & TH provide airtight alibi for him. She left property he didn't.
[–]Cricketnz
IMO- she was at Avery's 2:00 to 2:15 then Zipperers. Avery said he was calling TH to 'come back' Dawn Pliszka changed her story when she got on the stand. In the phone call between Remiker and Weigert they clearly say Avery then Zipperer. And that the receptionist said that the call on 2:27 was her "leaving a message". Then she got on the stand and says TH called her at 2:27...the cell phone records don't show an outgoing call. It was incoming and went to VM as Dawn first said to the detectives. But by the time the trial rolled around it had changed to her having spoken to TH and that she was on her way to the Avery's...that's a lie and inconsistent to what she said to the detectives. The VM's that were erased from TH voicemail were most likely the 2:41 from Dawn and the *67 call from Avery... which would've established that she had already been to SA and he was just calling her to return.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf and start at 2:05...
Dawn left her a message...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlyBVBJKTeM
[–]Cricketnz
IMO- She left the Schmitz at around 1:30..straight to Avery's leaves by 2:10..and calls Zipperer. We only know that Joellen says that TH was lost in her testimony...but in her Nov. 6th statement she doesn't say anything about the VM left..by then whe would've heard it....but we don't know as we have never heard what the VM actually said....given that Avery was a confirmed appt. It would make most sense that she would do Schmitz, Avery, then Zipperer (this was an add on through telemarketing). IMO- the 2:41 call was when she was leaving the Zipperer property and was around the Maribel area already.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
I agree. I was stuck on the idea that TH was close to the Zipperer property at 2:12 - when it is entirely possible that she was calling for directions or to say she was on her way or whatever. Maybe JoEllen made the assumption that she was lost. Who knows. JoEllen had no idea what day it was when she was interviewed. (Honest to God!) I should know better than to take anything she said seriously!
And you're right; it makes sense to hit Avery before Zipperer coming from Schmitz. It was a straight shot traveling in that direction.
I also like your timeline for the Avery appointment. Makes sense that she is out of there by 2:24 when SA realizes that he has another car he needs to put in the AT. He probably tried a couple of times, got busy - then called her again a couple hours later when he had a minute...
Would still like to know why Dawn's voicemail had to be deleted.
[–]Shamrockholmes
I completely agree with everything you are saying. Joellen and Dawn's testimonies always stood out to me as very suspect. The 2:12 call TH left on Zipperer answering machine and the 2:27 call from Dawn (whether she spoke to TH or left a message) are the two most important calls in establishing the timeline of what actually happened, if we are to assume that Joellen and Dawn would be less biased than SA because they were not the ones on trial for murder.
However, as both of their timelines and recollection of events and phone calls noticeably changed from initial interviews to trial, notably in the prosecutions favor, it makes you wonder why. And also makes you wonder what happened to the voicemail Dawn left TH if she did as her initial statement indicated, or why did Dawn say TH called her if we know the 2:27 call was an incoming call to TH? Why is Dawn calling TH at 2:27pm if she knows that TH usually only works until 1pm? Lastly, why didn't detectives (Remiker, in particular) record TH's voicemail on the Zipperer phone when they listened to it, as they (Remiker) did to the voicemail TH left on the Janda phone?
[–]14MGh057
I think I'm agreeing with you on that. I always say if...then or if not...then. So I'll say I do believe the bus driver was thinking bout a different day. But one question of mine is, when AT would come out to take photos, I read in (I'll have to check where/who) testimony, the cars would be at or near the point where the bus driver would drop kids off (by the mailboxes), NOT usually parked in front of Barb and SAs trailer.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
There are cars parked all over the property. I am not sure that there was ever a pattern. Maybe the difference was personal cars vs other cars they were selling. It would be reasonable for them to park random cars away from their homes while parking their personal cars closer. The van was Barb's personal car.
[–]OpenMind4U
...so, we're eyewitness the murder trial with:
- dirty bias cops,
- unethical prosecutional conduct;
- non-professional forensics experts and investigators;
- corrupted officials;
- and...implanting 'MOLE'/Trojan Horse right inside of Avery's family?.....
[–]CopperPipeDream[S]
So, Wiegert and Fassbender were suggesting that Barb move so as to remove the "reminder" of the crime? Is that what I'm hearing? Jesus. This is just too much.
[–]OpenMind4U
...and not only suggesting to move out and buy new house but kind of 'promising'/gives hope/hint that BD is coming home...soon...?????
[–]NAmember81
I'm guessing that since there is no way in hell that those two goons could ever give a flying fuck about Barb and her family what they are really saying is "it's in your best interest to move because it reminds US and the community of the tyranny we needlessly inflicted upon Brendan".
Those goons were fearing the inevitable turn in tide of public opinion. The tide has finally arrived and like all brutes, tyrants and cowards they go into hiding once their victims rise up and see through their false facade of authority.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
Doesn't this fit nicely with the land grab theory?
It's interesting how Barb's thinking that they are talking about a short time frame - like she's bringing him home soon and it's awkward to be living there now.
But on his end, he knows Brendan is gone for decades - and even though he won't be home for at least 20 years, she should get rid of the place now.
[–]Strikeout21
This is exactly what I was thinking.. Break Barb's attachment to the land by getting her off of it, thus weakening the links that will fight for it when the state comes for it. I'm really starting to believe the Avery property is the motive for a lot of this. Is it sitting on a natural gas reservoir or something?
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
I don't think so. I just know that they are the last holdout - all surrounding property is held by the same owner. Their land is right in the middle of a very large holding. It's pretty clear that they are in the way...
[–]14MGh057
Yep. I bet Barb helped LE, IDK in what manner, but aided LE in getting SA arrested. Probably thought she and ST would get some $$$, never expecting anyone to believe BDs statements, expecting him to be 'let go'. But LE make mistakes by using private party citizen search participants to provide crucial evidence illegally through their search and seizure methods. Hence, no official photos taken during discovery of the MOST "crucial, compelling, evidence" which the state recovered. So for LE to cover their mistaken a$$es, they threw Barb under the bus. No wonder she lost it in the street after BDs trial. Not that I wouldn't be that upset either, but I would be more disturbed if I knew my hand was one who dealt BD another bad deal, and I didn't even get the "compensation" I thought was coming.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
I think Barb was manipulated by MCSO almost as much as Brendan was. That family never saw it coming.
[–]Hubert_J_Cumberdale
Possibly, but I don't think there necessarily has to be a motive. If they [Barb and Scott] were convinced they were doing the right thing, any perk they might receive for helping the prosecution would just be a thank you for their help.
I'm not so sure that any of this is as complicated as ulterior motives and conspiracy... These are pretty simple people.
[–]Yecart81
She's got some insecurity god complex with her brothers.
[–]Ctthrt
Disgusting people, everyone, Kratz, Culhane, etc. they should be all be behind bars. I wonder how many innocent people like BD they've thrown away, I'm sure the corruption runs deep.
[–]14MGh057
If there was a set-up (see, i stay open-minded), I think it run very deep and has been for years.
[–]CopperPipeDream
What was the connection between Barb and the two detectives that she felt comfortable enough to confide in them on a personal level let alone take their advice?? In short...W.T.F.?!
[–]MrDoradus
Dassey/Tadych family were all highly likely groomed by the investigators who played the "you can trust us we have your best interest at heart" card. I think the Dassey/Tadych family still believed that SA did it and Brendan was somehow involved during that period, despite all odds.
Fassbender and Weigert advising Barbara and her family to move was, imho, only because they feared the rest of the family (Dolores and Allan mostly) might convince the Dassey/Tadych family not to trust and work with LE. I wouldn't be surprised if they promised help with purchasing the house, financial or otherwise (getting them a "good loan", finding the house etc.). They not only got her son imprisoned but actually might pushed her into a bad financial situation too just because of their ulterior motives.
Edit: though I want to add that this is all pure speculation based on believing Barb's word that she really was advised by LE to move houses.
[–]Fred_J_Walsh
Is the suggestion that the Avery/Dasseys failed to follow the principle of omerte? Brendan did relate that Steven had told him not to talk to the cops. So, Steven tried.
[–]tworutroad
Probably so but I think there was also an element of humiliating Barb with that suggestion that she up and move. Obviously she doesn't have the money.
[–]14MGh057
Maybe BJT was one of the CIs?
[–]OpenMind4U
...I really want to know for sure!! If it's true then a lot of things could be cleared out...plus, in the Dispatch tape (the whole Dispatch tape on youtube) I can hear one woman call which remind me of BJ voice...
[–]14MGh057
I know this much: "Barb Janda T" was extracted from the report part of the CI document (not on page 2, but in the report). By extracted, I mean, whatever filter used IDK. I didn't ask. Font type and size were duplicated, add the filters, and then...You can see "Barb Janda T". You can see "Barb Janda T" (no period). You can see "Barb". And no, they're not showing this because if, in fact, the CI hint wasn't to bait everyone, but is factual, there might be ramifications for posting and exposing a potential CI. IMO tho, if the CI notation is real, I believe there were two of them, and I do think "Barb Janda T" was one. I'm not asking you to believe me because I saw it. I wouldn't expect that. I wish that person would share, but that person doesn't want to.
The marked CI lives in Two Rivers. Check the address line. Any info on who this is? Reimer is from Two Rivers.
Barb is listed as Mishicot, can see through the bad blackout.
Thanks for sharing. Is there a connection between Reimer and Barb Janda-Tadych in any documents that you know of? Was this around the time of Barb's arrest for possession of marijuana, which was on November 5th. Maybe this was her offered information to get out of jail?
[–]14MGh057
IDK, but but I'll check. I need direction sometimes.
RE: CI. that's why I think there a two CIs. Given what we know about the accuracy (inaccuracy) of their documents, and that 3 shell game theory, I question page 2 of that report. I find it hard to believe that they would leave any info of a CI even partially visible. HOWEVER, I do not find it hard to believe someone fell short of covering the info up!
Agree with you, if connection between Reimer and BJT, she might have been given an offer.
U blew me away w ur accurate summation of a timeline since the last batch uploads. I couldn't keep up with cross-checking LOL. You hit on some VERY important issues.
[–]Howsthemapples
I do believe Barb offered up something, some information to get out of jail. It seems so obvious?
So the "T" which you can make out peeping through at the end of the blacked out bit... You think is Barb Janda T? And it wouldn't have to say Barb Janda Tadych?
[–]14MGh057
With them, who knows. But let's say, that BJT is the name hidden. for me, that doesn't mean that the CI notation is true. After seeing ALL the mis-information generated as a result of THs death, there are a few things which are clear.. someone (or more) people lied, SOPs were NOT followed during the investigation & during evidence testing, and then there's the reporting of all this data. And like you, I'll listen to any theory involved with any piece of this case. I keep looking at the triangle, and there is a connector missing, IMO.
[–]innocens
Wasn't there a clip in MaM with Barbr talking to Wiegert about moving, whilst Brendan was sat there, having just been interrogated? Or in the longer clips released?
[–]MellieInMi
Just posted this as a comment (Link to video)
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4c5unu/fassbenderweigert_strange_suggestion_to_bjt/d1fb681
[–]s100181
Is it at the end of the video?
[–]MellieInMi
Yes. Video I posted will start right at that spot (at 3:47:50 of 4:19:20).
[–]RonnieGeo
Are you able to give context to what Barb is responding to?
It's hard to really understand much without the context.
Obviously, those two have no basis for offering financial advice, just wondering if maybe there was some other reason they were advising a move.
[–]devisan
If they were acting as financial advisors, that's nuts. But I wonder if there may have been a context of the Halbach's filing a wrongful death suit against Steven. It seems to me perhaps they could also have filed against Brendan and/or his legal guardians at the time, and being bankrupt might make that less likely.
And in any case, Barb would have been better off discussing her finances with a lawyer or at least a banker, but if it was a conversation about civil suits, that might sound slightly less deranged. Although, why she'd listen to them, I don't know.
I assume she consulted an attorney to file, and the attorney agreed with W&F. Maybe she's only citing them to give validity to her decision to file in the eyes of people who would sit in judgment of it.
[–]KennythePrize
They knew the confession was incredibly problematic. They were trying to drive a wedge between her and the rest of the family.
[–]lmogier
Was this the house that ST was living at when TH disappeared? The one that was subsequently torn down? Maybe they knew something happened there and wanted to make sure it was destroyed? Didn't they also tell ST to tell Barb to get BD to accept the plea deal....?
[–]CopperPipeDream
Not sure. There was BJ's trailer on the Avery lot. There was ST's trailer off HWY 147, two miles from the Avery property. And there was the new house they bought.
[–]Howsthemapples
Yes, BJ & BD getting put up in the hotel (Fox Hills Resort) to make their statements. But then BD goes and incriminates himself was not in the plan....
[–]misslisacarolfremont
Barb is easily suggestible. If Barb believes in her heart that Steven murdered Teresa Halbach and her bones were in his burn pit, as well as her own burn barrels, she is not going to want her and her family to continue living there. Also, they are getting tourists from all over the country visiting and even taking selfies in front of the Avery Salvage Yard sign. She would be hounded for interviews!
The bones at the Quarry
by snarf5000 at Reddit
"So Avery went to all that trouble to dispose of evidence of a body - including burning a second time after using a fucking Hammer & Chisel on the first incompletely incinerated cremains - but then... just leaves his work there in his backyard??" - elshorgio at Reddit
In the Dassey trial transcripts, forensic anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg testifies about the bone evidence. There is no mention of the quarry burn location in that trial.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6jzw/brendan_dassey_trial_transcripts/
(Day 4 page 49)
However the subject does come up in the Avery trial. In episode 6 at about 35min Dr. Eisenberg says that she "suspected" that a couple of bone fragments from the quarry site "appeared to be" from a human pelvis.
Here's what she says in the documentary:
Eisenberg:
There were no entire bonesthat were found, but at least a fragment or more of almost every bone below the neck was recovered in that burn pit.
[Fallon] Did you find evidence of any human bone identified as being collected from a site other than the burn pit behind the defendant's garage?
[Eisenberg] Human bone also was collected from what was designated "burn barrel number two."
Now, you did offer an opinion that you believe the location for the primary burning episode was the burn pit behind the defendant's garage, is that correct?
That is correct.
[Strang] There was a third site, was there not?
Yes.
And this would be the quarry pile.
Yes, sir.
You found in the material from the quarry pile two fragments that appeared to you to be pelvic bone.
[Eisenberg] That's correct.
You suspected them of being human pelvic bone.
That's correct.
The charring and calcined condition that you saw was essentially consistent with the charring and the calcined condition in the Janda burn barrel and behind Steven Avery's garage.
[Eisenberg] That is correct, sir.
Nowhere did you find evidence that you were looking at bone fragments from more than one body.
That is correct, sir.
So what you conclude is that by human agency, bone fragments here were moved.
Some bone fragments identified as human had been moved.
That's correct.
On this page:
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-1-march-2007.html
we hear that her testimony also included this:
"She said that the bones recovered in the gravel pit were mostly animal bones. There were some that were inconclusive."
Here is an image of the location taken from the documentary:
https://i.imgur.com/yyUuhNU.jpg
Estimating with Google Earth, the quarry burn location is about 2,900ft or 885 meters (as the crow flies) from the firepit behind Avery's garage. It's about 2400ft or 730 meters from where they found the RAV4.
I might hazard a guess that there was a burn site already in the quarry for animal bones, possibly for deer carcasses/remains. Two small bone fragments may or may not have been positively identified as from a human pelvis. They certainly weren't positively identified as Teresa Halbach's. Dr. Eisenberg seems completely qualified, but is it possible that neither of those bone fragments were actually human bones?
Perhaps this area was previously known to the killer(s) as a burn site. Was anyone known to have burnt bones there before? How big is the pile of bones in the quarry? Are there any exhibits from the Avery trial, possibly pictures of the site?
Would the killers have burnt animal bones along with the human remains in an attempt to camoflauge them? If they later moved the human bones, how did they prevent the animal bones from getting into the Avery firepit?
If the prosecution's theory is that the firepit behind Avery's garage was the one and only burn location, how do they explain human remains at the quarry? Have they opened an investigation?
Did Brendan actually "confess" that Steven took a bucket of bones (two bone fragments) and drove them half a mile away and dumped them in the quarry on top of a bunch of burnt animal bones?
I think only the Avery trial transcripts and exhibit info would be able to shed more light on this. What was Eisenberg's confidence in identifying those bones as human?
It's possible that the bones at the quarry are nothing more than a distraction.
[–]thrombolytic
Dr. Eisenberg seems completely qualified, but is it possible that neither of those bone fragments were actually human bones?
Anthropologist here. Human pelvis bones are very unique due to our upright posture. I'd have to see the fragments, but from her testimony it sounded like large-ish pieces. It would be very difficult to mistake non-human pelvic bones for human.
Anthropologists who do bone stuff (like paleo-anthro type folks) can be like bone savants. I know a guy whose specialty is determining what kind of ancient animal left a particular bone fragment in a particular layer of dirt from spots around Africa. And he's damn good at it.
I expect forensic anthropologists to be able to identify human pelvic bones as human with near 100% accuracy.
[–]snarf5000[S]
Thanks for your informed reply. In your experience, would identifying the bone be a positive/negative match, or would there normally be degrees of certainty? Roughly how large would the sample have to be for a 100% match, maybe as big as the end of your thumb? Or could it even be smaller depending on where on the pelvis it came from? Thanks
[–]anthropwn
I'm also an anthropologist. Another issue that needs to be raised here is the extreme fragmentation of the recovered bones and the apparent absence of much of the skeleton. Fires capable of reducing bone that much need to be sustained and incredibly hot, which I'm not sure was really possible in a trash fire. The interior of a large tire fire could potentially sustain that kind of heat, but you're talking more than just a couple of tires as indicated in the burn pit pictures.
It's really common to find bone fragments in prehistoric fire pits, so we have a pretty good idea of how well these things get preserved. Most of the bone breakages we see are done intentionally (long bones broken for marrow, etc.), and the fragments are still well preserved.
The bones in the documentary show an extremely high level of reduction and damage, to the point I think it requires pretty significant and deliberate actions (smashing the entire skeleton with a hammer or other blunt object, etc.) to get it to that point. The fire, as indicated in the documentary, very likely couldn't have sustained the necessary temperatures. Then, you have a whole other argument to deal with about the mental state of an individual mutilating a body to that degree. There's a lot of distance between somebody throwing a mostly intact body on a fire and somebody dismembering, pulverizing, and then burning a body.
[–]snarf5000
I would need to check my sources, but I believe that the prosecution theory was that the bonfire was indeed very hot (multiple tires burning), and that the bones were broken up with a shovel and a rake during the burning.
The dilemma is that in having a fire that hot, nobody would be able to get close enough to the fire in order to break up the bones.
[–]anthropwn
According to several studies, the hottest stage (equilibrium/pyrolysis) of a tire fire can push upwards of 2000 degrees fahrenheit, but it takes about 60 minutes to get there, requires a fairly large amount of fuel (tires), and additional fuel to maintain. Cremation to the level seen in the documentary can happen between 1500-2000 degrees, but will take 2 hours or longer.
So, what you would have needed is either a closed environment (incinerator), or in an open environment (SA's bonfire), a fairly large stack of tires and 3-4 hours of continuous, steady attention to achieve and maintain the required amount of heat. Then, you figure many hours of 'cool down' after that before you can really clean up or dispose of anything.
I don't believe there was anywhere near enough fuel (belts from just a few tires pictured), let alone the time necessary to get the job done.
[–]snarf5000
The Arson Investigator Pevytoe does suggest that there were more than 5 steel-belted tires, as well as the van seat, and possibly other tires that were not steel-belted (trailer tires). He couldn't say at what time all the tires were burnt though.
His testimony is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6jzw/brendan_dassey_trial_transcripts/[1]
(Day 4 pages 11 to 48)
[–]anthropwn
I read through both Pevytoe's and the forensic anthropologist's testimony, and I don't take particular issue with either. Pevytoe even states that he's not sure one way or another if there was enough fuel to destroy human remains to that degree. For me the issue isn't whether or not a tire fire could generate enough heat to burn a body, because it could, but if there were enough tires to fuel that kind of fire for the length of time needed and if the timeline even supports that....I think it's right on the edge of possibility, but then you still have to deal with the extensive damage to the skeleton. This isn't just a murder/rapist disposing of evidence....it's far beyond that.
I just don't know. There's a TON of physical evidence at Avery's house, and that's difficult to explain away...especially the bone fragments in multiple locations seemingly intertwined with other burned matter.
[–]snarf5000
I'm not sure if there's any information available for how long the bonfire was burning, that would be useful to know if Avery was out tending it all night.
One scenario could be that (if the prosecution is correct and the body/bones were never moved), he placed the body in the pit with a massive amount of fuel. Then he let it burn down, chopped up the remains with the shovel, and lit it up again. Rinse and repeat.
[–]anthropwn
From what I can gather from the various conflicting statements, the fire was started sometime after 5 and burned until sometime between 9-10 pm. So, you have potentially 4-5 hours, but it would've required tending, etc., during that entire time, and you're talking about a pretty substantial fire...lots of heat and thick, dark smoke. It'd stand out over, say, somebody burning trash or leaves. You would also expect to see a bunch more tire remains.
Pevytoe's testimony is pretty damning. Assuming he's telling the truth, which we have no reason suspect otherwise, there was a fully dismembered, puliverized human body burned along with tires in that firepit or nearby at some point. Additionally, I find the conclusions of the forensic anthropologist to be sound. I take some issue with her assertions that eye socket morphology is definitively diagnostic of sex (plenty of clinal variation there along with the relative frequency of gracile males), but, placed in context with the other diagnostic skeletal remains, her conclusion is solid. For the burned remains to have been planted there seems highly unlikely given that a trained eye like Mr. Pevytoe's should notice discrepancies in and around the alleged burn site.
Could the dismembering and destruction have been done that night in that fire pit by SA is the question.
If not, how did somebody burn a body there or plant a burned body there without SA noticing?
[–]snarf5000
One key piece of evidence was that bones were also found in the burn barrel. The burn barrel has to come into play at some point, and as pointed out in another thread, the barrel is probably a better choice for burning a body on a short time line.
In one of the Dassey "confessions" he mentions that Steven was planning on burning a whole bunch of stuff in the firepit in order to create enough ash to level out his yard. So that it wasn't so "lumpy".
It's been in the back of my mind that potentially the burn barrels from the back of the Janda residence were frequently dumped into the firepit at Avery's. It's even possible that Steven Avery saw someone dump the barrel there, didn't think anything about it at the time, and then never said anything later so as not to implicate family. Even if he did see bones in his pit later, he may have assumed they were just deer bones. The family are avid hunters and probably have burnt lots of bones.
[–]seankelly014o
The police had the crime scene for eight days, which is a very long time for a warrant, the bones could have been placed then, also what about teeth and dental work. Could these be taken care of to.
[–]foghaze
but it would've required tending
How can any human stand near a 1500-2000 degree fire and tend it without burning to a crisp? Please if you know explain.
[–]TheGoodwife1
Enough tires? Have you seen Avery salvage?
[–]anthropwn
The fire investigator testified that there were remains of 5 or potentially a few more tires in the burn pit. It doesn't matter if there were eleventy billion tires at the salvage yard, only a small number were used in the fire.
[–]TheGoodwife1
Have you even seen a cushion burn?
[–]shvasirons
Plus it is winter, not helping the fire sustain the heat.
My original thinking was that the body was burned more than once. For example, if they first tried just dousing her with gasoline and burning her, they might be surprised by how much was left. So move the bones and do it again with extra fuel plus mechanical breakage. Commercial cremation takes about an hour per 100 pounds of body mass, and then they put the bones and teeth through a grinder to produce what we think of as 'ashes'.
[–]BigRemy
More on this, I live about an hour and a half south of Manitowoc in Milwaukee, and our fall seasons from Sept.-Nov. have been a bit warmer than you'd think. I looked up the weather data for Two Rivers, WI on that day (10/31/2005) and the high was 55 and the low was 39. Now that could be slightly warmer or colder depending on the direction of the wind, the speed of the wind and the proximity of where they were taking the temp compared to the location of the Avery Auto Salvage (nearby Lake Michigan can alter the weather drastically, sometimes even providing 10-20 degree swings the closer you get to the lake). I can't find wind speed data for that day as well, but fires are hard to keep up in the cold winds of WI. In other words, without super specific data, it's hard to predict anything in Wisconsin based on weather data. The weather here changes instantly and drastically.
[–]Trapnjay
Could the bones be tested for the chemical that tires release as they burn? Would the bone absorb those?
[–]snarf5000
I haven't found much information about this. There is a small reference here:
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-1-march-2007.html
"Anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg continued her testimony. There was an odor of fuel when she opened the box containing bones from the Janda burn barrel, but there was no odor on the bones. There was no residue or oder of burned rubber associated with any of the recovered bones. "
[–]Trapnjay
Weird ,the box smelled like fuel yet the bones did not..There should be something from the fire's chemicals left on something.
[–]vasamorir
Tires burn for a good while. 4 or 5 tires would likely burn that long. Was there any evidence of tires used at the quarry site?
[–]anthropwn
They would burn that long, probably, but the issue is if ~5 car/light truck tires would burn at pyrolysis stage for 2-3 hours. I have nothing beyond anecdote here, but I don't believe that's anywhere near enough fuel.
[–]vasamorir
They do burn for multiple hours. That is why you see jokes about eternally burning piles of tires (simpsons the first that springs to mind). 5 tires would probably burn all night and inti the next day if you let it.
[–]crackedreader
I'm not surprised to learn of something else that makes the states theory seem far fetched.
Would there have been some way to estimate how long ago the bones had been burned at the time they were found? I feel like this wasn't covered enough in the doc.
[–]vasamorir
But if they were burned twice therenwould be time in between. Say he burns the body at the quarry, after its done he sees its not enough, busts it up and loads it in a barrel to take home and burn again).
[–]snarf5000
I agree with you and with both of the anthropologists, I welcome their expertise. The degree of destruction is significant. Burning the remains twice could definitely be a possibilty in my opinion. I think the prosecution's theory was that there was only one burn location, and that was the firepit behind Avery's garage.
[–]vasamorir
Yeah, but I disregard their whole story. They made that up because they intended to use Dassey. I think Dassey is innocent and Avery is probably guilty. Burning at the quarry spot first would explain needing tl put the body in the RAV4.
[–]jbibbs
Timeline doesn't fit though. She's missing around 3pm maybe as late as 4pm. Steven's backyard bonfire is at 6pm.
He killed her, burned her, and transported the remains to his house to be re-burned all within two or three hours?
He also answered a phone call from his girlfriend at 5:30pm and spoke with her for 15 minutes.
[–]vasamorir
You have my time liklne confused.
That said if the fire startes at 6pm.. that doesn't look good for Avery. That means he had a 6+ hour bonfire!
[–]seankelly014 1 point 3 months ago
well that would be amazing stupid on his part
[–]vasamorir
Not really. I mean it's stupid, but it would make sense to burn the body away. However if you can't control that sight or explain yourself there long enough to destroy the evidence then it makes sense to move it some place you do have control enough to get the job done.
[–]seankelly014
yes but your back yard, why not somewhere else
[–]vasamorir
Where do you go that you can safely tend burning a body for hours upon hours at night? Why not home if you think it can actually be destroyed completely?
[–]seankelly014
Why would you burn them away from your property in the first place if that was the case, this is a rural area, lots of places to hide bodies. Also steve had access to an industrial smelter, which would have been a much better place to burn a body.
[–][deleted]
Very interesting, thank you. I was thinking the same thing when I saw the images of the very tiny pieces of bone fragments - that a fire could not do that alone.
ETA: I would also like to see documentation about the alleged piece of bone that had muscle tissue on it - used to ID the source of the bone as Teresa's. What are the odds that there happened to be one piece that had tissue for identification based on the visual of the many small shards of bone? I think it should at least be independently tested at a different lab after everything else they did in this case, ie. the DNA from the key.
[–]snarf5000[S]
I posted this elsewhere:
At about 10:50 of Episode 5 they show a box of bone fragments, and Kratz specifically mentions a shin bone that was not completely obliterated. Here's the dialogue:
120 00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:39,051 The mutilation of this little girl...
121 00:10:39,118 --> 00:10:42,184 Excuse me, not this little girl, this young woman,
122 00:10:42,250 --> 00:10:46,550 absolutely occurred because this is what's left.
123 00:10:47,317 --> 00:10:52,650 Small, tiny pieces of bone fragment.
124 00:10:53,450 --> 00:10:56,017 Now, despite Mr. Avery's efforts
125 00:10:56,084 --> 00:10:59,151 to completely obliterate all these bones by burning,
126 00:10:59,218 --> 00:11:04,084 to incinerate these bones completely, this bone survived.
127 00:11:04,151 --> 00:11:06,383 It's Teresa Halbach's shin bone.
from this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y0950/how_do_we_know_the_bones_actually_belong_to/
[–]SpryfieldHomegrown
Interesting. Thank you for the knowledge and perspective. Also, I love your username!
[–]artgo
But this theory cuts both ways. If the body was burned and not cut up - then all they had to do was sustain the heat and be good at building fires. If they cut it up - you have a lot more blood and other evidence spread around (such as fragments, tools, and cut marks on the bones).
[–]TheGoodwife1
What if he took a hammer an chisel to some of the pieces?
[–]elshorgio
So Avery went to all that trouble to dispose of evidence of a body - including burning a second time after using a fucking Hammer & Chisel on the first incompletely incinerated cremains - but then... just leaves his work there in his backyard??
[–]TheGoodwife1
Yep, he thought it blended enough no one would notice.
[–]elshorgio
Come. thefuck. on. "Blended"? What gives you any confidence that Steven Avery is a master, backyard-pit incinerator of human bodies past the point of forensic detection?
[–]Dogsnameischarlie
Well then where was she killed? It doesn't seem like it was anywhere on the avery property.
[–]wtfizmypassword
He got sidetracked removing every spec of dna from the trailer and garage.
[–]seeker409
In the "alternative theory" post here, https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/, the wife of the German mentioned that he had a small sledge hammer.
[–]vasamorir
It would be very possible to maintain an extremely hot long lasting fire in a tire fire which is what this was.
[–]reditz92
I think I've read all of your posts on this thread. Eisenberg testified that the bones did not show signs of breakage or damage after the burning occurred. Is this why something worse must have happened before the burning incident?
Very often these cut marks are described when discussing these bones. I'm wondering if a shovel could produce this type of mark. After the burning takes place and the fire cools, and you go to do some transport, could a regular spade leave cut marks as described in this testimony?
[–]anthropwn
Breakage before, during, or after burning all leave specific diagnostic markers. So, to the trained eye, it's fairly open and shut in most cases.
As far as the cut marks, these are also almost always definitively diagnostic as well. I would say that it would be exceedingly unlikely that a spade blade would make marks that could be confused with another, finer instrument associated with cutting (a saw, knife, etc.). If not readily visible to the naked eye, certainly these diagnostic markers can be seen under a microscope to look for small patterns in the abrasion, etc.
[–]foghaze
This is supposed to be the bones from the quarry. Looks to me like a right iliac crest top left of pic. Well partial that has been broken off. How can she not see this is HUMAN? Like to see what you think.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-bones-3.jpg
[–]thrombolytic
In your experience, would identifying the bone be a positive/negative match, or would there normally be degrees of certainty?
I'm not certain what you mean here- identifying the bone as TH's? Or as human? You could, with almost 100% certainty ID a bone as human (and with pelvis, very easy to get male/female) from a very small fragment. It would depend on which part of the pelvis the fragment came from, but there are a lot of 'landmarks' on the pelvis that tell us things like age ranges (which are most specific in the very young and very old), sex, and if female, whether or not she likely had children.
Essentially, I would guess the pelvic bones found could likely be identified as post-pubescent adult female, likely without children and being generally pre-arthritic. So in the probably 20-40ish range for age.
Long bones, teeth, and skull fragments (if reasonably determined to be from the same person) would give further evidence to age range, sex, and race.
[–]snarf5000
Yes, thank you I meant identifying the bone as human.
I guess what I'm getting at is this: Is it theoretically possible, given a small, non-landmark, charred and calcined fragment of bone, to mis-identify it as coming from a human pelvis rather than from an animal?
Sorry if that sounds stupid, I appreciate all the experts that help educate us laymen.
[–]thrombolytic
Theoretically possible? Yes. Likely? No.
If there is enough bone present to identify it as part of a pelvis, you almost certainly know enough about the bone to ID it as human also.
[–]snarf5000
That's really interesting, thanks again.
I am really looking forward to reading Dr. Eisenberg's trial testimony whenever we might see the transcripts of the Avery trial.
[–]thrombolytic
I'd be interested in seeing photos of the bones. I think the finding at the quarry is one of the more interesting things to me about this case.
How did the bones get there? How did anyone know to look there? Was it found by a quarry worker? How did they tie the quarry bones to the Avery property find? I'm assuming it's because both are charred and the only thing they didn't find on SA's property was pelvis bone. This was all very glossed over in the documentary and I'm not sure if that's because there wasn't a lot of time devoted to it at trial or because it didn't play well for the show.
[–]snarf5000
Well said, I agree the bones at the quarry are a very curious part of this case. Did the defense tie it to the Avery case (second burn location), or did the prosecution? It was left out of the Dassey trial completely.
[–]vasamorir
I would like to see those. If they were bigger it might mean they didnt burn as long as the rest which would indicate they started burning jn the quarry but were left behind. The rest were taken home to burn longer.
[–]ixid
If these were positively identified as human or with a reasonably likelihood it seems odd that the trial was seemingly so uninterested in them. Either someone else was murdered or at least their remains disposed of in a highly suspicious manner or Teresa's body was burned there and then moved on to the Avery property which would be suspicious in the extreme.
[–]foghaze
I know this is a late reply but I noticed you were an anthropologist and i was looking at the pictures of some of the bones we have in evidence. I can see something that looks to me like the Ilium broken off. It's not burned an oblivion like you would expect it to look had it been cremated. . It's not whitish gray like most of the bone im seeing in the pics.
I don't know if this is the bone they are talking about from the quarry but there are no other bones mentioned found anywhere else that looked like a pelvis bone.
What do you think? Does it look like a female pelvis bone? It does to me.
Top left
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-bones-3.jpg
[–]foghaze
I was able to identify the bones at quarry based off Eisenbergs description. I also noticed one bone inparticular looks just like the right iliac crest but broken. I know nothing about bones but I know a human iliac crest when i see it. Here is the link to the bones in the quarry. She cannot be this dumb. I may have already talked to you about this. Iliac crest top left.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-bones-3.jpg
[–]thrombolytic
You know, a couple people have messaged me this picture, one time even overlaying it with an image of an iliac crest. Honestly, there is not enough information in the picture for me to be sure it is an iliac crest. Maybe a part of the iliac blade, but I don't see any of the architecture that screams crest to me. The ilium is the whole bone with that bowl shape- connected to ischium (the bones that hurt when you ride a bike) and connected by tissue to the sacrum. The crest means something specific- the thickened ridge of bone along the top where the ASIS (anterior superior iliac spine). I'm not seeing any of that and there is no scale to tell us how large that bone fragment is. It's also not a super high quality image and I'm not looking at it in front of me where I can turn it over and see it from all angles. I'm also not a bone expert, but I am not ready to declare it's definitely an iliac crest.
[–]scosme
Does anyone else think the quarry site is where the murder happened? Lenk could have been the first to report on a suspicious activity call near SA's property. Found the body and, given the opportunity the timeline presented, planted the car on the property, moved the body and while the property was under their control-create their custom crime scene.
Also i feel like the ex bf could have used the Avery property as a tool in a murder scheme. His comments on the stand, peculiar deletion of voice mails, increased interest in how search parties work, the look of relief on his face when he said he was never really considered as a suspect...
He could have known that TH had an appt there and amongst leaving "take me back baby" voicemails, followed her to the Avery property or brought her back there after committing the crime?
[–]snarf5000
Does anyone else think the quarry site is where the murder happened?
It would be great to have more information about the site, and how much it was investigated. Who knows, maybe there were RAV4 tire tracks at the quarry?
This site seems like it might be a good place to commit murder, not too far away, but not too close to the Avery property either (if the killer was linked to the Avery property). If something happened there I think it would point towards someone familiar with the area.
Another question is that if the killer had Teresa out there with her RAV4, if he wasn't already planning a frame-up, why didn't he just torch the vehicle at the same time and destroy that evidence?
[–]scosme
I think if you burn the car off of his property-you lose the open/shut case quality compared to if the cars is found on the Avery property and also if you burn the car you cannot plant the blood to tie SA to the scene.
[–]shvasirons
Very interesting. That is a really excellent compilation. And very cogent questions raised. I am glad you posted the screen shot of the quarry location. I had been visualizing it as much closer to the compound, kind of between the cars and that E-W dirt road. The actual location is much closer to the actual quarrying operations. Have you seen anything about how active this quarry was? I am now leaning towards this pile as an unnecessary distraction. Good work.
As an aside, have you come across any screen grabs of the actual RAV4 location?
[–]snarf5000
Here is some information about the quarry:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
[–]snarf5000
I don't know anything about the quarry operations, on Google maps it now looks like it's being used to store pipe? There was another thread on here tracking down the property lines and ownership though.
As far as the RAV4, I'm sure it was by the pond in the SE corner of the main Avery Salvage lot. In the documentary it was probably shown when they were talking to Pam Sturm (the god lady). I would have to check later.
[–]shvasirons
Thanks! I knew the car was in that corner but was unsure as to which side of the little pond it was. They have fewer cars in today's operations from the looks of Google Maps and don't use that area the same way.
It would be great to have an annotated Google map showing highlights like the car, the crusher, the smelter, etc.
Please don't go looking for a screen grab on my account!
[–]Astamper2586
West of the Avery property: top looks active, top middle looks to me HQ and active, bottom middle for pipe storage and some gravel activity, bottom looks like they are filling it in. Two to the east, both look active.
[–]snarf5000
Someone started a thread about the quarry operations, I don't know if it led anywhere:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrm99/lets_talk_about_doug_hagg/
[–]carnalhag
Do we know how the quarry bones were discovered? It seems like a very large area and without a tip or something to lead them there a very random discovery. Also I'm curious about the condition of the bones. We know some bones had tissue on them so isn't it possible this was moved due to animal activity?
[–]snarf5000
As far as I'm aware, only one piece of bone had tissue on it, and that one was found at the burn pit. In Culhanes testimony she used that tissue to get a partial match of DNA to Teresa.
I haven't read about how the bones at the quarry were discovered, I assume during the full search of the area. I don't know if it was volunteers or the police that found them.
[–]snarf5000
I posted this elsewhere regarding the tissue and DNA:
As far as I can tell, the only DNA evidence from Teresa Halbach is found in the burn pit. Her DNA profile in the lab came from a pap smear.
This is part of Culhanes testimony in the Dassey's trial. Transcripts:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6jzw/brendan_dassey_trial_transcripts/
This is from Day 3, page 68
"This is a photograph of a - a bone fragment with some, um, burned, charred tissue attached to it. "
page 71:
Q Can you say that Teresa Halbach is the source of this, uh, DNA profile that you found?
A No
It was a partial match, statistically one in a billion if I read that right. They can only say it was a full positive match at one in 6 trillion.
[–][deleted]
Wow! So the expert did not even conclude that it was her DNA? The prosecutor stated it as if it was definitively Teresa's DNA.
[–]snarf5000
I think that with a probability of one in a billion they figured that was good enough proof. I don't think the defence would argue that point.
[–][deleted]
That is suspicious because only 7 of 15 sections was a match with her known profile. I do not believe that one in a billion stat is accurate and this is actually not even considered a "partial" profile as not even most of it matches the standard.
[–]snarf5000
If you think that Culhane might be suspicious in all this, please see here:
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html
[–][deleted]
The level of corruption is startling. I wonder if the bone tissue can be sent to an independent lab. What if it's shown that Teresa's body was not even there at all? What if the bones were all from a museum or something?
I'm sure if there was evidence, the IP would have taken on the case.
[–]AlveolarFricatives
It's totally possibly that the IP will get involved and uncover this kind of evidence. On the IP website, there are stories of cases that involved this kind of misidentification. I read one last night where a fingerprint was said to match a defendant, and he was convicted. The IP re-examined all the evidence and found out that the fingerprint didn't match him after all; someone either lied or was mistaken. This kind of thing can and does happen.
[–][deleted]
Yes, there's always hope. My gut tells me there is NO sign of the victim's body in that pit. It was staged. Who knows what really happened to her but I don't think any of the bones belonged to her. I think proving that would go a far way toward freeing both of them.
I believe they claimed to have found a tooth, but who knows how accurate that was either.
Does anyone have an image of the bones?
[–]jajablah
so, another young women's body was actually in SA's burn pit?
[–][deleted]
I don't believe there was a body there at all, just bone shards. I am not convinced it was TH's bones.
[–]jajablah o
Did you see this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3zfoqw/manitowoc_county_coroner_debra_kakatsch_was/)
[–]flickerfly
In addition to finding teeth that match dental records and rivets that came from her jeans, it adds up to her.
[–][deleted]
No, they found pulverized root fragments - 24 of them and all the crowns had been burned away. The forensic dentist said two of the fragments pieced together were "consistent" with TH's tooth but he could not say with certainty.
https://justiceforbradcooper.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/no-crowns.pdf
[–][deleted]
I read the Dassey transcripts. There were two broken pieces of one tooth that the forensic dentist pieced together, but he could not definitively say for certain that it was TH's tooth.
Rivets could easily be planted.
[–]snarf5000
Just to expand on this mention of the dental records:
The forensic dentist Donald Smiley glued two pieces of a molar root together, and matched it up with Teresa's X-rays. There was no other evidence he could really check. He said it was consistent, a probable match, but stayed short of a making a full positive ID.
Complete Dassey Trial Transcript - 9 Days
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6pjd6kpq5o5mx40/Dassey%20Trial%20Transcript.pdf?dl=0
Donald Smiley (forensic dentist)
Pg 216 (744)
Um, there were, I believe, 24, uh, dental structures, root fragments, um, crown fragments. There was not one whole tooth that I was able to examine.
~~
There were two root fragments that I was able to fracture match back together.
Pg 231 (759)
Fallon: ... based on your analysis of Tooth No. 31, the one that you were able to fracture match back together, do you have an opinion on whether the root and bone fragments from Tooth 31 recovered, uh, from the burn pit, are consistent with the dental x-rays of Teresa Halbach that you obtained from Dr. Krupka?
A Yes, I do.
Q And what is that opinion?
A In my opinion, they were very consistent.
~~
A To me, very consistent means that it's a probable identification.
~~
Q ~ How close are -- were you to making a positive identification here?
A I was very close. I mean, it was right there, and --and probably the only thing holding me back is that I'm, again, ultra-conservative in my opinion.
~~
Cross-examination.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
[–]jajablah
Thanks for this. I had also read she was ID'd through tooth fragments so happy this is cleared up. This case just gets weirder ...
[–]nexttime_lasttime
The only thing I can think is that a dog lead them to the quarry site. After finding the car at the far end of the lot, they may have starting looking for a body by expanding their radius from the Rav4. From the Rav4 to the quarry is not very far, and if she was transported, there may have been some trace to lead a dog that way.
[–]TedsEmporiumEmporiumo
How much bone was found and can a bonfire (between 3 ft high and 9 or 12 ft high) get hot enough to reduce a significant amount of the bone to ash in a few hours?
[–]snarf5000
I think the Arson Investigator estimated that it could take hours to get the bones in that condition by burning in a bonfire, depending on conditions (fuel/dismemberment/etc).
Rodney Pevytoe Dassy trial transcripts 4/19/07
[–]WiretapStudios
Remember, they used tires on the fire too, which are accelerants because they are basically oil / petroleum in solid form.
[–]snarf5000
I've expanded a bit on the use of tires in this post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/40p459/burning_a_body_with_tires_check_my_math/
[–]artgo
It's possible that the bones at the quarry are nothing more than a distraction.
Tht's the problem here. There just isn't evidence of who did what.
To me, with weather conditions and such, can't you establish that the quarry fire and the house fire were done on the same days, with the same materials, and the same temperatures? What did that location look like - a place someone drove a car to?
I think the police got a case where no clear evidence appeared and they were arrogant in assuming it would be easy to solve and prove. Now they are afraid to admit - there is no specific evidence of which person killed her. How can they prove who is holding a gun? Who burned a body?
[–]snarf5000
It would be interesting to see the call logs from Jodi to Avery, and if there were any unanswered calls. My intuition is that Avery was hanging around the trailer waiting for the call, but there's no way for me to know.
It seems more likely that he was in/around the trailer waiting for a call, rather than travelling 1.25 miles back and forth chopping up and burning a corpse just to move it behind his trailer for the night and not miss the call. I don't know the mind of a killer.
[–]mxpx5678
no entire bones that were found, but at least a fragment or more of almost every bone below the neck was recovered in that burn pit. [Fallon] Did you find evidence of an
How are you moving the rest of the body? putting the fire out and collecting pieces of human remains?
[–]vasamorir
Just shovel it?
[–]snarf5000
But we know the body WAS burned. So where was it burned if not at the quarry and not in SA's bonfire?
I think there are at least four more theories regarding the burn location. The crematorium in the city (police access). The incinerator on the Avery property (not investigated fully), the cook shed in the woods (new to me), or another bonfire elsewhere.
[–]imgodf01
I cannot really consider the police cremated the body themselves. I can see them planting evidence, the key, the blood, etc. but I cannot see them willfully cremating a victim's body for any of the motives put forth so far. That would go beyond the pale of corruption to something really ghoulish.
The cremator on the Avery property seems completely reasonable. Why a murder would use a junk fire instead of that is one of the big questions I have about the prosecution's allegations.
I am unfamiliar with a cook shed in the woods.
I think they would have had several other vehicles too, but it seems that there should have been SOMETHING on them - residue, ashes, blood, an odor, something the dog would pick up - if they had been searched at all. Or in the alternative, were they completely cleaned?
[–]paul_33
The incinerator on the Avery property (not investigated fully)
Why wasn't it investigated? Wouldn't that seem like an obvious start?
[–]snarf5000
It wasn't clear at first what the smelter looked like, or why the investigator dismissed it seemingly so quickly, but we now have some pictures. It might have been very obviously unused for some time. It may be that the burner and pot setup would not be a good choice for incineration.
Here's some pics of the outside at least:
http://imgur.com/a/ELxbZ
EDIT: Another theory that has come up is the possible smelter at Hermann's Salvage (Cleveland?), but it's possible that was dismissed for the same reasons.
[–]14MGh057
there has to be another smelter in the area. the bones were fragmented similar to a stage in the cremation process. an open burn would not produce enough heat to fragment bones like that. that is part of the reason there were 3 different areas where cremains were found. when removing a body from a smelter, even if the body is not totally thru the cremation process, ash deposits will remain whenever cremains come in contact w anything, even air. there HAS to be another smelter in that area. of course that was never investigated.
[–]tds166
Thats the first time I saw all of those photos. Not related to the smelter topic but where supposedly was that key hidden in that bookcase/nightstand? So where did the lanyard part come from? Where was that found?
[–]snarf5000
I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but supposedly the key was inside the bookcase, Colborn shook it up, and it fell out of the broken back.
The rest of the lanyard was found in the RAV4 at the crime lab.
There's also blood on the rear seat fold-down levers. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Here is the one of the reports on the blood stains inside the RAV4
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/408kw3f7esh2fj1/AADU-8KLCsQg-4tUoT32NJ9_a/Avery%20-%20Lab%20Report%20November%209.pdf?dl=0
[–]snarf5000
There's a couple clips of the quarry search in this video:
http://wbay.com/2016/01/07/video-nov-10-2005-halbach-case-becomes-a-homicide-investigation/
around 2:30
Using the coordinates from Exhibit 402 with Google Maps, and cross referencing that with aerial photos from the time seem to show a very suspicious black spot that could be the actual burn pit.
Nov 7th "Suspicious Incident on Kuss Rd" DISTRACTION was created by retired MTSO deputy [one of SA’s arresting officers in Jul, 1985]
By MsMinxster at Reddit
Jul 29, 1985 at 11:15 PM Sgt Petersen along with Officers Jim Froelich and Mike Bushman entered Steven's house without a warrant or permission to enter and arrested him for the sexual assault of PB (charge was later changed to attempted murder). Deputy Arland Avery accompanied them because he was worried about Lori and the kids. Source
Nov 7, 2005 at 10:35 AM Retired Deputy Inspector Mike Bushman, of MTSO was leading a team of searchers in the area at the end of Kuss Road (approximately one half mile from the western edge of AVERY property) when he found a possible excavation site. (CASO p. 137) According to Tyson, it was 3X3 feet area of disturbed soil. (CASO p. 133)
- Dedering is called to the scene, the area taped off and no one allowed in or out. Tyson is called away from Barb’s to the suspicious scene on Kuss Rd., which he clears then returns to Barb’s.Despite Tyson clearing the scene, Ertl of WI Crime Lab is called away from searching the Janda burn barrels at CASO to Kuss Rd. where he finds:
”…an area with disturbed soil. To me it didn't look like a grave site. It looked more like a rotten stump to me, where the wood had just turned into like humus. There were no plants growing up through it really. So it was a barren spot. So it kind of looked like it was disturbed.” (Ertl’s testimony, p. 6)
- Tyson is called back to the rotten stump, which retired MTSO Deputy Investigator Bushman mistook for a “potential burial site”. This nonsense continued until 5:45pm when it was finally determined Bushman's stump was not pertinent to the case. [You don’t say?]
THEN-
Nov 8, 2005 Cremains found in fire pit. License plates found in car on path close to Steve's trailer. Burn barrel discovered by Steve's trailer. Key is found in Steve's trailer. Bones, teeth found (but only 30 percent of the bones were found and 29 teeth were not recovered).
I know, I know, Bushman is another coincidence. But why is Bushman, one of two officers who accompanied Petersen to arrest SA in 1985 for a crime for which he’s later exonerated, and for which SA is suing the county, WHY is Bushman involved in the search at all?
By my count, here are the strange, coincidental connections in this investigation (that reek of conflict of interest):
- Bushman (distraction on Kuss Rd)— SA’s arresting officer in 85
- Nurse Fay (enthusiastic DNA swabber)--Hermann’s next-door neighbor
- Remiker (magic bullet)—Kocourek’s cousin
- Off. Jost (1st bone siting)—cousin of MH’s fiancé
- Don Belz (retired 27-year veteran of MTSO and former captain of detectives)—only granddaughter married to Josh Radandt’s brother/co-owner of business. [They were married prior to 2005 but it does make me wonder if this is why LE is so quick to brush aside or misdirect any scrutiny on the quarry.]
- Lenk/Colborn (license plate and key)—deposed in civil suit
- Pam Sturm (led by God to RAV4)—cousin to Sheriff Pagel
[–]MsMinxster[S]
During the Bushman's stump distraction (around 11am-5pm), among others, Todd Herman, Rob Herman, Jason Jost, and Jacobs of MTSO signed in and out on numerous occasions as did Pagel, RH and SB were on site (Avery) from 9:53am-4:28pm, and our good friend Wendy Cross-Burner was guarding a burn barrel.
Nothing suspicious...nothing at all....
[–]MsMinxster
My original theory when I first joined this sub (seems like so long ago!) was that TH's death was an accident by GZ and grandson buried TH's body. They made a deal for immunity if they disclosed the location but LE had to cremate due to decomposition or possible DNA evidence. Since CASO report is now available, I've wondered if some of that theory is still plausible except the "accident" might've occurred at deer camp on Kuss Rd. and one of Radandts/employee of Radandt's made a deal for immunity. The cadaver dogs hit in that area too IIRC.
[–]foghaze
Your research is excellent, very thorough and well thought out.
Regarding this post, why does this not surprise me one bit that LE had to manufacture a wild goose chase in order to plant all their evidence? Six hours focusing on a STUMP. It's one thing to know they planted evidence but when you start showing how they actually pulled it off is what's most disturbing. It is clear what they were doing this day and it is despicable!
Speaking of distractions I have been very suspicious for quite some time now that all the "evidence" we are seeing in the files are nothing but meaningless distractions. Seems to be no more than to confuse. It confused the volunteers and most of all it confused Avery's defense. It appears everything that was of real evidentiary value was completely buried or perhaps not even documented at all. Manitowoc and Calumet LE had everyone on wild goose chases. There are so many things that were deliberately buried that appeared to be extremely valuable information. Tips, leads and actual evidence (phone Pam of God found) just disappeared and no follow ups. So now I'm looking for things that were briefly mentioned and never mentioned again. That is where I think the real evidence lies.
The thing that makes me the angriest is it is evident LE spent all their time conspiring on how they were going to pull their frame up off. None of their time was spent actually looking for a missing person. When they speak about searching they always said "We were trying to find Teresa's vehicle". Not once do they say "we were trying to find Teresa". That right there speaks volumes to me. It tells me they knew she was dead long before the RAV was even found. The fact they spent all their time conspiring their frame-up, ignoring key evidence, manufacturing distractions and sending volunteers on wild goose chases can only mean one thing.
The devil is very much in the details.
[–]OpenMind4U
I have no idea why any barrels needs to be returned back at all DURING investigation...I can understand to return back some barrels which holds no evidence value AFTER investigation done and Barb came back with her kids to use these barrels as garbage collector.....But investigation was continues on 11/08. This returning back barrel is nothing more/nothing else as the 'Three Shell Game' = con game!!!
If anyone wants details on the burn barrels crazy journey, please see this post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4apos3/three_shell_game/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4apos3/three_shell_game/?
"Suspicious incident." CASO report, page 133
While searching BJ's residence, Tyson receives a call at 1058 about a suspicious incident. Tyson (836), Colborn (432), and Lenk (204?) are told they need to leave BJ's residence and respond to Kuss Rd. After clearing the "incident," they return to BJ's at 1450...almost 4 hours later. After clearing BJ's residence at 1508, they are told to go BACK to the suspicious scene on Kuss Road to meet with the crime lab personnel (even though they already cleared the suspicious incident) and they assisted the crime lab with digging up dirt in what they thought was a "possible grave or burial site." Was the suspicious incident the fact that they found disturbed soil and if they cleared the incident, why was the crime lab called to the site and why did they start digging? Or was the suspicious incident the fact that someone create a distraction, forcing Tyson, Colborn, and Lenk to leave the area near BJ's and SA's residences?
I did a quick comparison to the logs, and this happens to be the timeframe where ins and outs are the most screwy. And ironically, the same timeframe when Ryan and Scott are unaccounted for. This also happens to be the timeframe when Tyson, Colborn, and Lenk should be checking in and out at the same time, since Tyson claims they're serving warrants together and somehow arrive together. But they don't log in or out together. After 1246 hours, Tyson operates on a different schedule than Colborn and Lenk, and he appears to start running around with Riemer (somewhat illegible on log). And I'm having a hard time finding a check out for Tyson between 1246 and 1715 (5:15 on log). I see two check ins instead. Any thoughts?
This post by /u/treefortress addresses some of the timeline.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4g5i5q/plot_and_plant_a_timeline_of_117/
Pro-DEFENSE Information That Was Left Out of MaM
By devisanx2 at Reddit
Much has been said about MaM leaving out prosecution evidence, but here's a list of defense evidence it also left out.
- Dean Strang recalled that one of the investigators involved in finding DNA under the hood of Halbach's car admitted to not changing gloves after handling evidence inside her car. Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SGwXEJ_0X2A Reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ztcch/wow_investigator_didnt_change_gloves_after/
- Remember Sherry Culhane, the expert who testified about Halbach's DNA being on the bullet, except she contaminated her control sample, but since she'd used the whole sample (leaving nothing for the defense to test), they went ahead and treated it as conclusive? In 1985, she testified in the Penny Beernsten case that a hair "consistent with" Penny's was found on Steven's shirt. Source: http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/garrett/innocence/avery.pdf and http://lacrossetribune.com/news/state-and-regional/wi/dna-expert-who-helped-exonerate-avery-testifies-in-murder-trial/article_5dc71915-0a95-5438-bf29-e168b655a855.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/the-poster-child-effect.html
- "Buting showed that Culhane delayed the DNA test that freed Avery for a year" and "Culhane’s error rate was shown to be the highest of her group although her analysis time was seventy percent of the other analysts. She explained this by stating she did more samples than others." Source: http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html
- Investigators never dusted the Toyota key (with Steven's DNA) for fingerprints. http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-7-2007-search-for-steven-averys-fingerprints-crime-lab-expert-testifies/
- Strang said Manitowoc County Coroner Debra Kakatsch would testify that she was "walled off entirely" from the crime scene by Calumet County authorities. By state statute, she should have been allowed to investigate early reports of possible human bones being found outside of Avery's trailer, he said.
- Strang said the coroner had also received calls from the Manitowoc County executive and the county's top attorney not to investigate the case. Source: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/witness-says-she-saw-victim-later-b99642985z1-363818721.html
- Culhane testified that the amount of Avery's DNA on Halbach's hood latch (which could have been blood) was very small, similar to what you would get from rubbing Avery's toothbrush on it, or from the unchanged gloves of the tech who handled blood evidence inside the car and then touched the hood. https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/406qfo/it_was_not_proven_that_the_dna_on_the_hood_latch/
- Buting wanted to show jury anonymous letter mailed to MTSC, found in Green Bay Post Office, which claimed a body had been burned in the smelter at 3:am on Friday. Sources: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=20070308&id=UuMqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pEUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6227,3242420&hl=en and http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.Vo7kgR7DPIU (Note that this last link comes from a website that, irritatingly, replaces every instance of "ass" with "DorkFish", so Fassbender comes out "FDorkfishbender. Why, website, why???)
- Clerk Lynn Zigmunt testifies that she had a log everyone was supposed to sign when they went into the evidence room, but "some people were making exceptions for people. We've tightened up on that." Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-6-2007-who-cut-the-evidence-tape-that-should-have-sealed-steven-averys-blood/
- Blaine Dassey testified that his brother, Bobby, was asleep when he got home from school around 3:40pm, contradicting Bobby's testimony that he got up at 2:30pm and saw Teresa headed towards Steven's trailer. Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/february-27-2007-another-nephew-of-steven-avery-takes-the-stand/
- Dean Strang says Steven's jail conversations were taped for 16 months and he never implicated himself, and this - along with the fact that in his experience, people "mentally equipped as Steven is" always end up confessing or implicating themselves - makes him think Steven may be "stone cold innocent." Source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/01/08/making-a-murderer-attorney-dean-strang-reveals-what-sparked-horrible-sense-steven-avery-may-be-stone-cold-innocent/
- Now Sheriff (then "under sheriff") Robert Hermann is president of another salvage company in the region, and was working at it before he went into law enforcement in the 80s. http://cleveland-auto-sales-salvage.cleveland.wi.amfibi.directory/us/c/18826455-cleveland-auto-sales-salvage and http://www.htrnews.com/story/news/local/2014/07/01/sheriff-robert-hermann-recalls-career-highlights-changes/11944007/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=. Also, Hermann also attended the FBI Academy in Quantico in 1995, where he "made some great law-enforcement contacts.” Could explain why they got the FBI to fabricate an EDTA test and do it pronto for them. http://www.htrnews.com/story/news/local/2014/07/01/sheriff-robert-hermann-recalls-career-highlights-changes/11944007/
- Dean Strang stated they had a forensic anthropologist at trial who testified that an open fire wouldn't have generated enough heat to burn a body in the way that those bones were destroyed, but it didn’t make the documentary. Dean Strang on Megyn Kelly, the Kelly File 1/5/2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
- In between 3:30 - 4PM, A propane delivery truck driver (John Leurquin) saw a green SUV leaving the Avery property at but couldn’t identify driver or if it was a male or female. He delivers propane for Valders Co-op. Usually fuels up near Avery property at 3:30 for about half an hour http://www.wsaw.com/news/headlines/6386482.html
- “Police said she was wearing blue jeans, a white button-down shirt and a summer jacket when she was last seen. Schmitz would indicate that Halbach was at his residence at approximately 1:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white shirt, waist -- waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Zipperer would indicate that Halbach was at her residence between approximately 2 to 2:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white top, waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Bobby Dassey said when he saw Teresa Halbach photographing the van Avery was selling Oct. 31, 2005, she was wearing a knee-length coat and slacks. http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.VpLqvJMrLq2 and http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8ob2esw3Gd4J:archive.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0101/511060418/Car-missing-woman-found&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0
- Steven filed an interesting post-conviction document naming other suspects the police should have looked into. Please do not take this as Steven actually accusing any of these men; it's just meant to show a judge that there were other viable suspects besides Steven, and that should create reasonable doubt. http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery%20document%20page%2023%20+.pdf
- William Newhouse, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, said he couldn't conclusively link a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage to a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom. (He could only confirm that it was definitely a bullet from a .22 caliber rifle). There was no DNA on the gun, no blood blow back that you’d get from shooting someone at that close range and no blood mist / spatter around the garage that would also be present had someone been shot in the garage. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/prosecutors-link-gun-found-in-room-to-bullet-with-halbachs-dna-b99643001z1-363819121.html
- Strang proved and Bobby Dassey agreed that the joke about hiding a body that Steve supposedly said to Bobby Dassey and Mike Osmundson on Nov 3 before Teresa was reported missing couldn't have been made on Nov 3, because Bobby Dassey was working that night. If it did happen, it could have only been made Nov 4 after Teresa's disappearance was public. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/testimony-unclear-on-timing-of-joke-b99643032z1-363820361.html The documentary showed Steven's defense team questioning the date of the alleged joke but left out the evidence of why it couldn't have been heard by Dassey and Osmunson before Teresa's disappearance was public.
- The defense eliminated as many problematic jurors as the law allowed, but they still ended up with a MCSD sheriff's father and a county clerk's husband. http://www.people.com/article/steven-avery-juror-says-two-jurors-related-county-employees
- On the 'Kelly Files' interview, Dean Strang mentioned that there were little drops off deer blood all over Averys garage, essentially debunking the theory that they could have cleaned all the blood evidence out of the garage, since had they cleaned it that thoroughly, there wouldn't have been any deer blood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
- Colborn testified that he "roughly" shook the bookend table when the key fell out, yet if you look at the photo, there is a remote and some paper sitting on top and things sitting neatly inside. https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B
- Manitowoc County Public Safety minutes for 12-6-05 show 744 Hours + $2,800 of Sheriff time billed in first month of Halbach investigation. 744 hours/24 hours = 31, which means during a month Manitowoc was supposed to be recused from the investigation, they are saying they put in the equivalent of someone working every single minute on this investigation. Plus, DA Mark Rohrer is in these meetings, discussing the case when they're supposed to have turned it over to Kratz. Source: http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/upload/3/PublicSafetyMinutes12-6-05.pdf
- On the leg irons/handcuffs from Avery's house. They tested those for DNA and found a mixture of DNA from 2 or more people. They confirmed Avery to be a source of one of the matches. Most importantly, they excluded Teresa's DNA as a match. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6pjd6kpq5o5mx40/Dassey%20Trial%20Transcript.pdf?dl=0 Day 4/8/07.
- Brendan describes how he couldn't shoot Teresa because his mom's ex-boyfriend once had to put down one of their sick cats by shooting it, and he couldn't watch. 3/01/06 Interrogation Transcript Pages 589 and 590, https://www.docdroid.net/ZSo3Oc1/01mar2006transcript.pdf.html
- In one interrogation, Brendan says he see's SA hide the key. At this point where the location where the key was found was public. When he's first asked he says SA put it under the dresser. After he was immediately asked again he then says it's in a drawer - "Like the second one down, like in the middle row." Looking at the picture however, that dresser doesn't even have drawers. Dresser: https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B Source: http://convolutedbrian.com.s3.amazonaws.com/dassey/01Mar2006/01Mar2006Transcript.pdf The exact lines come at the end of page #602 and the top of page #603. The actual page of the pdf excerpt is 77-78.
- 24 tooth fragments were found among the remains believed to be Halbachs. Interestingly, the crowns - the hardest part to destroy, and best part for identification - were gone. From Brenda's trial: "They were all burned. They were all charred. Uh, they were very brittle. Um, again, they didn’t look like normal tooth like we would normally see, and essentially, the crowns were all gone. (emphasis is mine). What we were looking at was just the root structure, which was, um, part of the tooth that’s buried in the bone. There was one portion of a crown, um, but that portion was from a — cuspid or an eyetooth and was not able to be identified."" https://justiceforbradcooper.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/analysis-of-evidence-in-the-teresa-halbach-investigation-making-a-murderer-documentary/ Be sure to follow the links on that page for more info about how teeth disintegrate.
- The Rav4 key that was found in Steven's bedroom is not the primary/master key for that vehicle. It's a valet/subkey. The master key and subkey are differentiated by the shape of the key's bow as shown in 1999 Toyota Rav4 owner's manual. http://i.imgur.com/WDjuJ99.jpg http://i.imgur.com/b9Pn5GC.png http://www.ownersmanualsforcars.com/manuals.item.3690/Toyota-RAV4-Owners-Manual-1999.html https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3z8pwn/summary_of_discussion_on_the_rav4_key/
- Jerry Buting: "The other thing that wasn't covered in the documentary is, we presented an expert who's from Canada, and he had never testified for anybody but the Crown, the prosecution, before. He was really a world expert on finding cremains outside and in various locations [where one might] try to hide and dispose of a body. And he testified consistently with what we had found in the literature, which is: to burn a body takes either extremely high heat, or a very long, sustained, moderate medium-high type of heat, and it would be very difficult to burn a body in an open pit — an open fire — particularly to the degree that these bone fragments showed. At a crematorium, for instance, they use extremely high heat, and it still takes several hours. Here, you would have had to continually stoke a fire over, and over, and over for 12, 14, 16 hours — something like that — in order to produce this [type of effect]. And there was no evidence that any fire [like that] had [taken place]. There was a bonfire, but there was no evidence that there was any intense fire like that for such a long, sustained period of time." http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115#ixzz3xMDLUsgQ
- Jerry Buting: "...the fragments that were found in the barrel came from all over the body. They had a diagram of the skeleton. They came from the shoulder, the toe, the leg, the arm — it was a complete mix. It was more consistent with what we thought had happened, which is that the body was burned elsewhere, scooped up into this barrel, dumped on Avery's property, most of it, but then some remained in the muck — sort of just a mix of bone." http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115#ixzz3xME62vic
- Kratz was also accused of sexual assault by three women. "Three women, including the woman in the 2009 incident, claimed Kratz had sexual contact with them. One of the women declined to provide any information about an alleged 1989 incident. The third woman said the contact, which allegedly occurred in 1999, was "theoretically" consensual because she agreed because Kratz said he could help her regain custody of her children. Kratz was Calumet County's district attorney for 18 years." and "The Office of Lawyer Regulation found merit in the allegation, however, citing Kratz for two ethics violations related to the incident, according to an 11-count complaint filed late last month...The DOJ investigated the incident and several others involving Kratz but concluded in March that criminal charges were not warranted." Source: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/disgraced-former-da-kratz-cited-by-regulators-for-alleged-sexual/article_4602156e-236a-11e1-b8b2-001871e3ce6c.html
- There is a "questionable stain", that tested positive for blood, recovered from the quarry. A DNA profile was developed that matched a male and it did not match SA, Bryan Dassey or Alan Avery (why only those three?). The stain is labelled as item CX. You can find it in Exhibit 313. A full DNA profile was developed. The following image displays the DNA profile, location found and the fact it tested positive for blood (DNA profile top left in picture). XY in the bottom row means it is a male. http://imgur.com/EJDW4ce Here is the result stating that identifies it as not belonging to SA. http://imgur.com/dtqP78E
- A WSCL fingerprint examiner testified at SA's trial that the "mystery print" did not match Steven Avery, Avery's mom or dad, Avery's brothers, his mother, Avery himself, the three Dassey brothers, Barb Janda, or Scott Bloedorn. Apparently when he was asked whether the print matched Scott Tadych, the State objected on the basis of relevancy, the objection was sustained, and the examiner never testified as to whether the print matched Scott Tadych's print. I've linked to the article below. The article itself misses quite a bit, but the excerpt I've provided below is at the end of the article. http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/makingamurderertouchdna.html
[–]LizardFoot83
ReplyDelete"Did LE go to the trouble to find a cadaver, or dig up a grave to frame SA?"
They were involved in the suspicious death of a young woman the day TH was reported missing - they didn't have far to search IF they needed cremains to make a case.
"If dead, why not just use the body?"
It's possible they only found the vehicle and no body. Also, if LE were involved in her death (which I don't personally believe), it would be wise for them to cremate/incinerate the body to avoid any accidental discovery of forensic material pointing to themselves (or away from SA).
I'm more inclined to believe they found the burned remains (and vehicle) NEAR the ASY, convinced themselves immediately that SA was the culprit, and decided to move the evidence onto the Avery property so they could insure a rock solid case.
I think JR'S false statement about the fire was set up with LE because they had already decided they needed to move the cremains to his property. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was JR who found the cremains and vehicle in the quarry area, on Nov 3 and called AC in (license plate call). I also wouldn't be surprised if JR was involved in the crime itself and decided to point the finger at SA to avoid anyone looking too closely at himself.
[–]MMonroe54
I'm more inclined to believe they found the burned remains (and vehicle) NEAR the ASY, convinced themselves immediately that SA was the culprit, and decided to move the evidence onto the Avery property so they could insure a rock solid case.
I agree this is a possibility. Did JR help them? Also possible, knowing nothing about his relationship with Calumet or Manitowoc Counties. If you think JR called AC, resulting in the license plate call, do you think MW falsified his report in which he said he called AC and asked him to go talk to someone at ASY? If so, that would explain why AC said he didn't stop at GZ because there were no lights. Because, if MW falsely said he asked AC to go to ASY, to explain why AC actually did go to ASY, then AC was never told to go to GZ. Interesting theory.
[–]solunaView
I think JR'S false statement about the fire was set up with LE because they had already decided they needed to move the cremains to his property. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was JR who found the cremains and vehicle in the quarry area, on Nov 3 and called AC in (license plate call). I also wouldn't be surprised if JR was involved in the crime itself and decided to point the finger at SA to avoid anyone looking too closely at himself.
This has long been my theory as well. To take it a step further, AC then contacts MH and in turn RH about the missing Teresa, and gives them the bad news. They need help to make this stick but they have their man. "Other evidence" proves it, they just need help moving the car and finding it.