JUNE 14, 2017 UPDATE: The following is from Kathleen Zellner's motion for post-conviction relief filed on June 7, 2017.
Investigators withheld the Zipperer voicemail CD which contained favorable and exculpatory evidence for Mr. Avery
When Ms. Halbach first arrived in the vicinity of the Zipperers' residence she made a phone call which was answered by the Zipperers' answering machine. Allegedly, Ms. Halbach left a voicemail that she could not locate the Zipperer residence. On November 3, when the Zipperers were interviewed at 9:30 p.m., they told the investigators that Ms. Halbach had left a voice message on their answering machine. The voicemail was listened to by Det. Remiker of the MCSD and it was copied by MCSD Detective Dennis Jacobs ("Det. Jacobs") onto a CD.
The CD of Ms. Halbach's voicemail recording on the Zipperer answering machine was never turned over to trial defense counsel and has allegedly disappeared. Current post-conviction counsel, through their investigators, sent a FOIA request for the CD and neither Manitowoc nor Calumet Counties claimed to have possession of the voicemail CD. Furthermore, although trial defense counsel's discovery requests would have encompassed the CD, it was never turned over by Mr. Kratz in discovery. Mr. Fallon confirmed in a letter to current post-conviction counsel on April 20, 2017, that neither Calumet nor the Manitowoc Sheriff's Departments have been able to locate the CD of Ms. Halbach's voicemail left on the Zipperer answering machine.
Suspiciously, Mr. Kratz never played the recording of the 2:12 p.m. voicemail for the jury. It is reasonable to conclude that Mr. Kratz concealed the 2:12 p.m. voicemail because it confirmed that the Zipperers' residence was Ms. Halbach's last stop. Corroboration of this assertion is found in a recorded conversation between Inv. Wiegert and Det. Remiker on November 5, 2005, about the sequence of Ms. Halbach's appointments on October 31, 2005. In that conversation, which occurred after interviews with Mr. Schmitz, Mr. Avery, and Mr. Zipperer, they concluded that Ms. Halbach's first appointment was with Mr. Schmitz, her second appointment was with the Averys, and her third appointment was with the Zipperers. Obviously, Inv. Wiegert and Det. Remiker based their conclusion on the Zipperer voicemail left by Ms. Halbach, which was listened to by investigators on November 3, 2005, at the Zipperer residence and recorded to a CD on November 6, 2005, and having interviewed both Mr. Avery and Mr. Zipperer. Clearly, the destruction and/or concealment of Ms. Halbach's voicemail to the Zipperers' leads to the reasonable conclusion that her voicemail refuted Mr. Kratz's timeline and so it was concealed from trial defense counsel.
Investigators concealed the voicemail left by Ms. Halbach on the Zipperers' answering machine because it refuted their theory that Ms. Halbach's final appointment was Mr. Avery.
In an episode of NBC Dateline about Steven Avery, a voicemail message from Teresa is played. Click here to listen to the message as it was played during the trial. This is the message that the prosecution claims was left on Barb Janda's machine. At the beginning of Making A Murderer episode 2, they play a CD with the audio recording of this message. They do not show a video recording of the answering machine as the audio plays, but video footage of the playback of the message from Janda's machines was not entered into evidence (trial exhibit 218).
Foghaze at Reddit presented the theory that the prosecution switched the voicemail messages Teresa left for Barb Janda and George Zipperer, so the message played for the jury was actually the one Teresa left for Zipperer, not Janda.
In Remkier's testimony Kratz has a CD and he shows it to Remiker. Kratz makes it a point to establish how Remiker presumably made a video recording of the message on Janda's machine (he testified that he used his digital camera on November 6th to record this message). He even shows the CD to the jury. Emphasis is given on how it's in video format. The only problem is when Kratz asks everyone to then listen to the message he doesn't' play the VIDEO! It's just audio. How telling is this? I think since Barb was present if they would have shown the actual machine she would have noticed immediately it was not hers! How convenient they never play the video. - foghaze, Reddit, April 9, 2016However, it was 2:12 p.m. when Teresa called the Zipperers, so why did she say she "will probably be there around 2:00 or a even a little later," unless she forgot to set her clocks/watch/cellphone back an hour and she was still operating on Daylight Savings Time (which Zellner does mention in her interview with Newsweek):
"Zellner also tells Newsweek that the defense team apparently didn’t realize that Daylight Savings Time ended on October 30, 2005—and that not all cellphones reset automatically."Another theory, this one by Altwolf at Reddit, is that the audio played for the jury was spliced together from two different answering machines. The first half was part of the message left for Janda, before Teresa left home that morning, and the second half, when Teresa talks about not having the address and needing the person to call her back, was part of the message left for Zipperer.
First half from Janda's machine:On May 31, 2016 SkippTopp of stevenaverycase.org uploaded the video that Remiker allegedly took of the message from Teresa on Barb Janda's machine (video below). According to Steven Avery's niece, Carla Chase, via twitter, the answering machine in the video was Barb's. Or is it Zipperer's message played over video of the Janda answering machine?
"Hello. This is Teresa with AutoTrader Magazine. I'm the photographer, and just giving you a call to let you know that I could come out there today, urn, in the afternoon. It would -- will probably be around two o'clock or even a little later."
Second half from Zipperer's machine:
"But, urn, if you could please give me a call back and let me know if that will work for you, because I don't have your address or anything, so I can't stop by without getting the -- a call back from you. And my cell phone is xxx-xxxx. Again, it's Teresa, xxx-xxx-xxxx. Thank you."
The following is an excerpt from Wisconsin DOJ Special Agent Debra K. Strauss' interview with Blaine Dassey on November 7th (page 7) about the message Teresa left for Barb Janda.
The following is an excerpt from Remiker's report of his November 6th activity and his video recording of the message Teresa left on Barb Janda's machine.
submitted by res_ispa_loquitur
/u/MissMinxster at Reddit laid out Remiker and Kocourek are first cousins and are both related to the same line of Zipperers (image above) but hasn't yet confirmed if this is also George Zipperer's line because his line has been marked private every where that was checked.
Calvin E. Yanda (1924 - 2016) ObituaryJohn Dedering's activity reports on his contact with the Zipperers on November 3rd and 6th of 2005 and January 19th and 20th of 2006 were received by stevenaverycase.org in April 2016 (link below):
Calvin E. Yanda, age 91, of Manitowoc, died Saturday morning, April 23, 2016 at Shady Lane Nursing Care Center, Manitowoc, where he had resided for the past eleven days. Calvin was born to Ernest and Lillian (Zipperer) Yanda on July 12, 1924 in Manitowoc. He attended Mishicot High School and the Marinette School for Welding. He then became employed at The Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company and worked on the World War II submarine program as a welder. On October 14, 1944, he married the former Gloria Kunz, celebrating 71 years of marriage. They farmed in the Town of Gibson for 16 years. In 1961, they moved to Manitowoc and purchased the Ames Chrysler Motors with his partners, Joe Herrmann and Victor Zipperer. The dealership then became known as Yanda Motors, Inc. of which Calvin became President of the dealership. In 1972, a new dealership was built on Menasha Avenue in Manitowoc. After being in business for 28 years, he retired in 1988 and the business was sold to First Chrysler. Calvin was a member of St. Francis of Assisi Catholic Parish, a 50 year member of the Eagles Club and a member of the Knights of Columbus.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/CASO-Interview-Reports-for-G-Zipperer.pdfFirst, let us clear up the confusion over how the Zipperers became a lead for Teresa Halbach. Nobody from the Zipperer household called AutoTrader. Instead, a telemarketing firm that AutoTrader used in Florida, which combs ads in newspapers to find leads, called the Zipperer residence on October 29th or 30th about placing an advertisement in AutoTrader magazine.
The following is a good description of the process as written by yourunderstanding at Reddit:
Per Remiker's undated report on his November 3rd activity, both Jason and George talked to a female about advertising his car. If they are referring to the telemarketer who called their home the weekend before October 31st, then maybe George answered the phone and gave the call to Jason since he was the one selling his car.The Zipperers got a call from an AutoTrader telemarketer.
Teresa was the photographer. She was not the telemarketer.
Teresa was faxed the lead that was created by the telemarketer.
AutoTrader looks through newspapers and other places for vehicle ads. They call those people and asks them, "Are you, by chance, selling any vehicles at this time?"
If the person responds that they are indeed selling a car, by chance, at this time... AutoTrader telemarketer standard response would have been something like this:
"Really! This is your lucky day! We have a specially priced offer running this week! You can get two weeks for the price of one! We could have a photographer out to your place on Monday, to take a professional photo of the vehicle and provide you with any additional information you may need. There is no obligation. If you decide to run an ad in AutoTrader, you can call us at any time, and we'll already have a photo of your vehicle on file. We can run your ad in the very next edition of our publication. We sell more used vehicles than anybody else in Wisconsin!"
The telemarketers send the information to AutoTrader's offices, who fax the information on the 'lead' to the photographer who covers the area.
Here is the lead that the telemarketer generated for Zipperer. Dawn Plizika printed this lead at 7:08 a.m. on October 31, 2005; it was her job to then fax the lead to Teresa shortly after printing it.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-20-Lead-Form-2005Oct31.pdf
You can see in the SOURCE CODE column: TMK, which states for telemarketing lead.
This is Buting cross-examining Angela Shuster of AutoTrader. Start reading with Buting's question on line 22. This part of the trial might help clear up the misconception of how Zipperer became a lead.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=37
After making several other attempts to obtain additional information, it was decided to attempt contact at the ZIPPERER residence at 4433 CORD B, Manitowoc. Inv. Dedering, Sgt. Colborn, and I went to that address. After approx. l5-20 minutes of attempting contact at both the front and rear entrances to the residence, GEORGE ZIPPERER and JASON ZIPPERER exited the residence and made contact with officers. Initially, GEORGE was not real cooperative during the interview with him but after a short time, he was able to provide some information, along with JASON. The information we received was that JASON placed an ad in a local newspaper for a Trans Am vehicle that he was wishing to sell, GEORGE and JASON stated they received a phone call from a female subject, stating that she wished to come to their property and take a picture of the vehicle for additional advertisements. We received information from GEORGE and JASON that JOELLEN ZIPPERER (GEORGE'S wife) may have additional information but may not be willing to speak with us.In Remiker's undated report for his activity on November 3rd (see image at the end of this post), he wrote that JoEllen "believed that George had previously given permission to Teresa to enter onto their property and take the photograph." This is backed up by JoEllen's voluntary statement dictated to Dedering on the morning of November 6th. "She [Teresa] asked if she could take photos of a Firebird that Jason owns. She said she had talked to George and that it was OK."
UPDATE JUNE 14, 2017: Attached to the post-conviction petition that Kathleen Zellner filed on June 7, 2017, is a DCI report by agent Neil McGrath, who met with Angela Schuster of AutoTrader on November 6, 2006. Angela gave him details that were not covered in CASO reports or during her testimony at Avery's trial. She said "Halbach normally worked Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays covering Green Bay, Appleton and Calumet Counties, and that she was temporarily covering the Manitowoc and Sheybogan area; however, these area tend to generate less business in the winter months and would be covered less frequently by Halbach." Angela did not mention of any appointments that Teresa had scheduled herself for Wednesday, but did said that Teresa had two leads from AutoTrader for Green Bay on Thursday, and neither of those leads had received a callback from Teresa. Angela said that the last fax she received from Teresa was at 12:13 a.m. on October 31st, the same fax number from which Teresa always transmitted her paperwork (she did not know if the time stamp was accurate). Angela said that "after completing their appointments, photographers will typically send a disk containing the photos along with the appropriate forms to the main office (she had about 10 photographers that reported to her), utilizing Fed Ex, UPS or Airborne Express." She added that "photographers will also fax their appointment sheets into the Hales Corners office for review." Anglea said that Teresa had leads for "Craig Sippel, B Janda and George Zipper" on Monday, October 31st, and stated that "there is a possibility that Halbach had other appointments that she would have arranged on her own, and Schuster would not be aware of these other appointment until Halbach faxed in her appointment report the following day."
In Dedering's undated report of his activity on November 6th, when he returned to the Zipperers, this time accompanied by Detective Jacobs, he wrote: "George indicated that a female photographer had called the residence previously and was told by George not to come onto the property. George could not recall when this conversation had taken place." In the same report, Dedering wrote that George said he was on a job at the building on the southwest corner of 11th and Marshall in Manitowoc (Belaban Real Estate Offices) from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. on October 31st and that he never left and has witnesses that can verify this.
George is confused. He may be confusing the female telemarketer who called on October 29th or 30th with Teresa (the female photographer). George did not talk to Teresa when she called their home at 2:12 p.m. on October 31st because that call went to voicemail (besides, he claims he was on a job site in Manitowoc).
On November 3rd, Dedering, along with Remiker and Colborn, stopped by the Zipperers' residence. In Dedering's undated report of his November 3rd activity, he says that George was extremely belligerent and appeared to be intoxicated. At 9:53 p.m., more than an hour after the three detectives first arrived, Dedering said he was allowed to enter their residence to listen to the voicemail that Teresa left on Zipperer's machine at 2:12 p.m. on October 31st. He wrote: "She stated that she was in the neighborhood and that she was trying to photograph a 1977 Pontiac Firebird. She stated that she was having problems finding the residence and hoped to do so in the next few minutes. It should be noted that this voice mail message or answering machine message was subsequently copied by Det. Jacobs on Sunday, 11/06/06."
Detective Jacobs did not file a report of his activities on November 6th. Also, a "copy" of the voicemail message that Teresa left for the Zipperers was not entered into evidence.
The lead sheet for Zipperer (image below) doesn't list the type of vehicle, so how would Teresa know what type of car was for sale? The only people who could provide this information to Teresa is one of the Zipperers, and she didn't talk to any of them because nobody answered the phone when she called at 2:12 p.m.
According to JoEllen's testimony, she was the only one to talk to Teresa when she arrived to take the photograph on the afternoon of October 31st. Per Dedering's undated report of his November 3rd activity, Jason said he was in school that day (he attended Lincoln High School). Per Dedering's undated report of his November 6th activity, George was on a job at the building on the southwest corner of 11th and Marshall in Manitowoc (Belaban Real Estate Offices) from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. that day.
Dedering wrote that he took a statement from George on November 6th, which Dedering said was signed in his presence by George at 10:45 a.m. He then wrote that his contact with George ended at 08:52 a.m., which doesn't make sense considering he just wrote that George signed the dictated statement at 10:45 a.m. So this means he left but later returned or he had George come to the sheriff's office. The dictated statement signed by George was not entered into evidence at trial but Dedering does include the content of that statement in the report of his November 6th activity. Oddly, part of his statement dictated to Dedering is as follows: "I've never done business with the Avery family. I've never been to the Avery junkyard. I am not friends with any of the Avery family."
More than two months later, Dedering attempted contact with George in response to a call that George had made to the sheriff's department. Dedering wrote: "On Thursday, 01/19/06 at 12:20 hrs, Inv. Baldwin and I (Dedering) did attempt to contact George Zipperer, previously mentioned in this report. The individual I spoke with indicated she did not know where George was and was unable to contact him, as he had no cell phone. She indicated George does not have a cellular telephone nor does Jason have a cellular telephone."
The next day, Dedering placed a call to George. In Dedering's report of his activity for that day, he wrote: "George stated he did call Auto Trader on one occasion after Halbach went missing. He stated he spoke to someone about Halbach coming onto his yard without permission and that she was trespassing. George denied making any sort of phone call in which he purported himself to be Steven Avery. George said he believed some Auto Trader representative called asking when he was going to 'pay the bill'. He then indicated it was a possibility he had called the AutoTrader regarding this matter." Dedering also wrote: "George indicated there were no cell phones in his house with the exception of his daughter's cell phone."
Why is George telling the sheriff's department that neither he, JoEllen nor Jason has a cell phone? Why would this be of any concern to deputies? Did Auto Trader accuse George of impersonating Avery, but didn't have proof because they couldn't link the number to George? And is George asserting that he couldn't have used any other phone because no one in his household other than his daughter had a cell phone?
George is again confused or intoxicated. AutoTrader does not bill. AutoTrader will not run an ad unless the customer pays in advance. No payment, no ad. George must have believed that the photo Teresa had taken on October 31st made it to AutoTrader, and he must have called AutoTrader to ask why the ad hadn't run in their magazine, at which time they would have explained to him that customers must pay for the ad before it is put in their magazine.
Below is an excerpt from a report generated on March 17, 2016 and made available to stevenaverycase.org. It contains information from individual LEO's reports. However, it is two reports spliced together as if it were one report. The first three pages are noted as pages 1, 2 and 3 of three pages total. Then on page 4 begins another report, starting with page 4 of a 17-page report. Where are the first three pages of the 17-page report?
Jane Cook wrote:
"I definitely think that if the 2:12 call is as stated then there has to be another, probably from Auto Trader, to get details of the car and gather information."I don't see a reason for Dawn at AutoTrader to initiate a call to the Zipperer residence: she gave Teresa the lead and it was up to Teresa to pursue it. The only reason AutoTrader would get involved is if they received a call from the Zipperers on October 31st, at which time Dawn maybe would have requested additional information using the "shoot/reshoot form" and then call Teresa to let her know that they were expecting her (and maybe then Dawn would have given any additional information she gathered).
I initially thought that it was possible somebody from the Zipperer household had called AutoTrader when they hadn't heard from a photographer by noon that Monday. If they had arranged their schedules in anticipation of a photographer arriving sometime that day, they would be curious as to why they hadn't heard from anyone (Teresa didn't call them until 2:12 p.m.). But Jason said he was in high school and George said he was on a job site until 5 p.m., and neither had cell phones. If they were looking forward to the car being advertised it would make sense that, having not heard from the photographer, someone would have called AutoTrader. However, only Jo Ellen was home and she gave the impression that she wasn't expecting a call or visit; in fact, she didn't even seem to know that AutoTrader had contacted Jason or George.
Which can only mean that Dedering lied in his report about what Teresa said in the voicemail, or, as you subtly suggest, maybe those three paragraphs were added to his report later and perhaps by someone other than Dedering.
From Dedering's November 3rd activity report (CASO page 18):
"At 2153 hrs., I was allowed into the residence. I did review voice mail messages left on the answering matching and Caller IDs. I did locate a Caller ID entry on 10/31/05 at 2:12 p.m. from phone number 920-737-xxxx. I recognized this a being the cellular phone number of TERESA HALBACH."Maybe the next three paragraphs in Dedering's report were added later:
"I did review voice mail messages and I did locate a voice mail message from TERESA HALBACH indicating that she was calling on Monday about 2:15 p.m. She stated she was in the neighborhood, and that she was trying to photograph a 1977 Pontiac Firebird. She stated that she was having problems finding the residence and hoped to do so in the next few minutes.Why write the same thing twice?
"I had been allowed access to the residence by both JO ELLEN ZIPPERER and GEORGE ZIPPERER.
"It should be noted that this voice mail message or answering machine message was subsequently copied by Det, JACOBS on Sunday, 11/06/05."
Or did he?
Jane Cook wrote:
"There was something odd, stylistically, about Dedering's report. There are two paragraphs that start the same way (about the voicemail) and pretty much say the same thing about the message. This is followed by one line which refers to being able to gain access to the property -- structurally, this section of the report is odd and incoherent. Dedering report is generally quite methodical, so this section jars and doesn't seem right."Did somebody other than Dedering add the three paragraphs noted above to his November 3rd activity report (and is this one of the reasons why Dedering wasn't called to testify)?
The three paragraphs being added to Dedering's November 3rd activity report after he filed it would explain why activity on November 6th by MTSO's Detective Jacobs (him "copying the voicemail message" that Teresa allegedly left on the Zipperer answering machine) is in the November 3rd activity report (CASO page 17) instead of the November 6th activity report (CASO page 105).
Dedering filed a November 6th activity report about his return to the Zipperers with Jacobs (CASO page 105). Why wouldn't this copying of the message by Jacobs be in Dedering's November 6th report, when the activity occurred?
Remiker was with Dedering on November 3rd when the two, along with Colborn, went to the Zipperer residence:
Jane Cook wrote:
"I also read that Jason Zipperer had a job at the quarry which is situated behind Avery Salvage, there is a track which leads directly to Avery Salvage, very close to where the car was located - do you know if that's true?"I haven't read that Jason worked at Radandt's quarry, but I did read that a Radandt and a Groelle live within a mile of Zipperer on County Road B (Joshua Radandt and Travis Groelle signed the log at Avery's on November 5th, shortly after Joshua volunteered to Inv. Steier that he saw a large fire at Avery's on October 31st, page 79.
It seems like everybody in that part of Wisconsin knows each other, so the Zipperers and Radandts probably new each other. Radandt's quarry was well known by the locals and apparently has been a hangout for teenagers for many years, so George and Jason would have known about it. Bones were found in a "burn pile" at Radandt's quarry; in particular, a female pelvic bone. This says to me the Radandt's quarry is were the body was burned originally and then the bones transferred to Avery's burn pit and burn barrel after they sealed off the property for eight days. But the culprits left behind some of the bones in the burn pile at Radandt's quarry.
In the evidence photos there is what appears to be red paint on the passenger side of Teresa's vehicle. The gate at the entrance to Radand't quarry matches this color. There is a road that appears to travel straight into the Avery property from Radandt's quarry, plus other roads that lead from that area onto the Avery property.
If the culprits were using the berm road to scope for a place to park the RAV4, it would explain the tail lights that Avery saw back by his home around 8 p.m. on Thursday, November 3th. Avery also told Officer O'Neill that on Friday, November 4th, around 8 p.m. his brother Chuck called him and told him he saw some headlights back in the salvage yard, in the area where the Rav4 eventually would be found on November 5th.
Also, the Radandt quarry is mentioned during Brett Bowe and John Ertl’s testimonies.
Photos and more discussion here:
http://georgezipperer.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-land-grab-theory-they-were-hoping.html
The following is Remkier's testimony on his recording of the voicemail message from Teresa (note that the answering machine stamps the time as 12:25 a.m., which obviously is incorrect). Remiker testified that he used his digital camera on November 6th to record the message on Barb Janda's machine (note that he was one of three deputies who visited the Zipperers' home on November 3rd and, at that time, one or more of them listened to the message from Teresa on their machine). Instead of playing the video from Remiker's digital camera, the prosecution copied the audio to a CD and played that for the jury, which supports the theory that the prosecution switched the voicemail messages or spliced together messages from two different answering machines.
2 Q Tell the jury what this is, please?
3 A That was, uh -- that was in the residence. Um, it
4 was, I would say, between the kitchen and the living
5 room area. It was on a table or a stand. It's a --
6 it's a digital answering machine.
7 Q Was this answering machine examined by you at
8 that time?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And how was it examined, if you recall?
11 A I was interested in what was on the answering
12 machine. I believe there was, uh, the number 12, or
13 indicated that there were 12 messages on the machine.
14 And I started going through the messages to see if
15 they were of any importance. And then I found, uh,
16 message No. 6 on the answering machine.
17 (Exhibit No. 218 marked for identification.)
18 Q There's a, um -- a -- a video clip, a -- a -- a
19 CD, that's in front of you, um, an exhibit
20 number. Can you tell us what exhibit number that
21 is, please?
22 A Uh, 218, 2-1-8.
23 Q Exhibit No. 218 -- and for the record and
24 Mr. Strang's benefit -- uh, is the video clip
25 of -- of this particular phone call? Is that
159
1 your understanding?
2 A Yes. This is recorded on my digital camera, which
3 also has the ability to record movies and audio.
4 Q Now, let me ask you this, uh, um, Detective,
5 Remiker, have you been asked to compare this
6 particular phone call that we're about to hear
7 with some, um, business records and determine the
8 date and time of this call?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And have you been able to do that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What is the date and time of the call that we're
13 about to hear, if you -- if you know?
14 A That phone call, um, was placed on October 31, 2005
15 at 11:43 a.m., I believe.
16 Q All right. I'm going to play this, uh, video
17 clip, and then I'm going to ask if you can
18 identify it.
19 A Okay.
20 Q "Hello. This is Teresa with Auto Trader
21 Magazine. I'm the photographer, and just giving
22 you a call to let you know that I could come out
23 there today, um, in the afternoon. It would --
24 will probably be around two o'clock or even
25 longer, but, um, if you could please give me a
160
1 call back and let me know if that will work for
2 you, because I don't have your address or
3 anything, so I can't stop by without getting a
4 call back from you. And my cell phone is
5 737-4731. Again, it's Teresa, 920-737-4731.
6 Thank you."
7 "Monday, 12:25 a.m."
8 Detective Remiker, is that the, um, recording,
9 the answering machine message, that you heard at
10 that time?
11 A Yes.
12 Q From an individual identifying herself as Teresa
13 from Auto Trader Magazine. Uh, did you believe
14 that was important and did you, in fact, retain a
15 copy of that message?
16 A Yes.
Oct 28 2005: Jason W. Zipperer (grandson of George) arrested for 'Criminal Damage to Property' & 'Contribute to Delinquency of a Child'; the latter charge was dropped by the prosecution when the matters went to court (see Manitowoc County Case Number 2005CM000883)
ReplyDeleteTH phone message audio - weird sounds
ReplyDeletesubmitted 18 hours ago * by Altwolf
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4gbq5z/th_phone_message_audio_weird_sounds/
I'm going to try to share this link to an mp3 of the msg TH supposedly left at Bbarb Janda's.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2EpQ8TxqKvrUzZ2TGVveHk4bnc/view?usp=drivesdk
Please ignore the spooky background music - I ripped this audio from the dateline NBC show about Avery. They added that music.
The sound happens twice in the audio. The first time it happens is at about 8 seconds. The second is around 15 seconds. The first instance of it is harder to hear, it is quieter.
It sort of sounds like a snare drum or stapler or ...I have no idea.. I'm hoping you guys could come up with something cuz I'm at a loss.
I really can't imagine why that sound would be in the background audio while she was in her car. There's no road noise that I can hear either. Just that weird click.
I wish that music wasn't happening. Grrr.
EDIT: Here is the original clip from the Dateline show. A couple comments below made me think of a few new things.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2EpQ8TxqKvrOTJFVXRhNGxrWjg/view?usp=drivesdk
In the video clip, you can see that the voiceover is splitting the two halves of the TH recording in half but is still suggesting that this is all the same voice message. However, I was assuming that the second section where TH talks about the address problem was when she was driving around trying to find the Zipperers. I thought this because she DID have an address for the Zips when she left that day but it later turned out to be incorrect. So I disagree with the Dateline reporter's suggestion that this audio is from just one VM message. Also, the tone of her voice completely changes between the two halves of the message.
Someone pointed out that TH saying she would be out there around two was likely to have been made when she was still at home that morning. I agree with that.
So I do think the audio is from two different answering machine messages.
Now back to the "click-clack" sound - if I am correct that the messages are from two different times, then it is highly unlikely that that same mystery sound would have happened in both messages. So I conclude that the sound was introduced into the recording when the messages were recorded by the police.
This raises the question about why Kratz wants us to think that the two messages are actually just one message. This is what can be inferred from the verbiage used by the reporter "Kratz noticed two things - that Teresa didn't seem to know where she was going despite having been there before..." This mystery is solved quite obviously by deciding that she was talking about GZ and not Avery. It's so weird that Kratzy wants to create this bizarre situation where teresa forgets the Avery address.
I'm all confused and tired. Sorry for rambling. I don't know if I am even making sense.
EDIT
Here is the audio from a link provided by redditor innocenz below. The file is a wav file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2EpQ8TxqKvrV3FQUUZXdWJLSWc/view?usp=drivesdk
31 commentsshare
There's one here without music
http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/february-21-2007-voice-message-from-teresa-halbach-used-as-evidence-in-court/
[–]Barredea88 6 points 7 hours ago
ReplyDeleteI have every reason to believe that the message we hear is mostly the message she left at the Zipperer residence. She knew where the Avery yard was, she had been there before. But in the message she states she's having trouble finding the address? BUT she's been there before, so how can she not know where it is? The message we hear is the one that was left at Zipperers, minus the part about her not being able to find the place because if they played that part, then people would catch on that TH knew where SA lived so why say she was having trouble finding his place? In Dederings report, he mentions that the message recovered from GZ machine stated she was having trouble finding the area, so now it makes even more sense that the message we hear is the one that was left on GZ machine. Coincidentally, the state or anyone for that matter, never refer to the audio message as the one that was left at GZ, it is only "jotted down" & "recorded" what is said on the message by Dedering.
[–]Sacredtrust61 2 points 6 hours ago
Great post btw. It lends some support that it may be part of a Zipperer VM.
[–]Altwolf[S] 1 point 6 hours ago
Thank you.
permalinkparent
[–]DominantChord 1 point 5 hours ago
I also think this is at least two messages. And the idea that she could not find Averys is preposterous. So that leaves only Zipperer voicemail.
TH phone message audio
submitted 13 hours ago * by CynAq
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4gcj9i/th_phone_message_audio/
First, listen to this clip posted by /u/Altwolf
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2EpQ8TxqKvrUzZ2TGVveHk4bnc/view?usp=drivesdk
This is taken from a tv show so it has a background music on it. /u/Altwolf suggested that these could be from two different recordings so I decided to visually analyse it.
Here is the result:
http://imgur.com/HasCeGO
Here, at the bottom, the melodic range of the BG music and chord changes are clearly visible. The 'mechanical claps' mentioned in the first post are also visible.
I'd like to hear your thoughts about the differences in the tonal ranges of the first part and the second part of this recording.
I think they are two different messages spliced together, based on my not-so-expert visual analysis of this image.
Edit: I forgot to mention, there was no horizontal stretching of the image. It's a direct screenshot with annotations added in paint. The compression seen in the second part of the message is directly from the audio itself.
Edit 2: The audio file itself is really made of two parts added together by /u/Altwolf. However, this doesn't change the purpose of this post, which is to discuss tonal differences in the messages themselves and consider if they are really two messages recorded at different times.
Edit 3: Added the spectrum for the first part, without any background music. Here it is. I'll upload the second part if I get my hands on it too.
http://i.imgur.com/dWIQOXK.png
[–]CynAq[S] 3 points 7 hours ago
If you listen to the second part of the message, TH's voice is even more muffled and slightly lower in volume. This part has different characteristics in terms of distribution of frequencies, which is visible in the image I posted.
Basically this part, where TH is talking about the missing address looks different than the part where she is talking about not making it on time.
[–]eyesclosing 3 points 5 hours ago
Two messages spliced together?
[–]Altwolf 1 point 6 hours ago
Hello. I added a link to the audio taken from the fox news video. It is in wav format.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2EpQ8TxqKvrV3FQUUZXdWJLSWc/view?usp=drivesdk
[–]Thewormsate
ReplyDeleteIt should be noted that this voice mail message or answering machine message was subsequently copied by Det, JACOBS on Sunday, l1/06/05. If they have this, I wanna hear it, otherwise IMO, it's all just BS!! TH wouldn't have known what kind of car it was, so that has to be a lie! Can anyone tell me where this statement came from?? KP's safe?
[–]Fist_City_86
Pretty sure that what ISN'T in evidence speaks volumes. Why wasn't the VM entered into evidence if it indeed was a clear indication of the timeline the prosecution was pushing? Why wasn't GZ called to the stand?
Comments about clocks on cell phones not resetting:
03-11-2007, 01:56 AM
I have an LG phone (the Verizon Vcast phone, if that makes any difference.) Anyway, my phone did not "spring forward" and now it is one hour behind. I went to Menu->Tools->World Clock and clicked on Set DST. I chose my city and it correctly showed the time. But then when I click OK and then out of the menu, the clock still says the old time. How can I change the time?
My Chocolate did not update either , until I powered off then back on again.
http://cellphoneforums.net/lg/t245757-daylight-savings-time.html#axzz45uVyT1on
Mar 08, 2008 · Daylight savings reset didn't take on my cell phone? ... i manually set my cell phone an ... time when it is daylight savings.
How do you change the clock time on a Motorola...
uk.answers.yahoo.com › … › Mobile Phones & Plans › Next
Oct 26, 2007 · How do you change the clock time on a ... and it should have a time and date place where you can then go ... change for daylight savings. How do I ...
[–]misslisacarolfremont wrote at Reddit:
ReplyDeleteSo much of what we say is locked into a certain idea we have but some roads just end up to be dead ends. For me the Zander Rd sign is key to something - to you it's a red herring. Everyone sees things differently.
What we do not have is AT phone records or documents and we do really need those as you say.
AT did not bill. That makes sense.
There are parts of Mrs. Zipperer's testimony which make perfect sense and other parts that are nuts and conflicting. She makes it sound like Teresa arrived but the part about her leaving sounds fabricated. "Teresa is happy and walking fast." That sounds like a lie because in order to put Teresa at Avery's she would of had to be there earlier - so walking fast was something Kratz told her to say. I used to think that Mrs. Zip lied because her husband accidentally shot Teresa and burned her body up - not so sure now. Maybe as you say the Zips are totally lying to cover up LE activities.
The part loveofnature posted where the process is described sounds correct, (albeit the source is Mrs Zip, but it still makes sense), which is that Teresa would take photos and if the person wanted to place an ad they just sent in their payment with the forms or called and then send in payment, whatever - the point is that the photos were already at AT and they would be all set. No billing needed. If they did not send in their payment with the form - no ad.
Just a theory based on piecing together testimony and also knowing what many cold call marketing schemes do. It is not enough to just wait for customers to come to you, you need to go out and get ads when and where you can.
We cannot wish away the fact that Teresa had the Zipperer's lead sheet with an address and their telephone number, even with the Trunk issue instead of the Road - we now know that meant Road to people in Wisconsin. We still do not know if she made it there or ever left! But I do not think most of your theories are wrong - the fact that Teresa took a photo at the Zips and did not collect payment is just a detail - that is all.
Dawn's testimony about the process of how the telemarketing worked with the company in Florida sounds correct - this is backed up by the lead sheet with the TMK code. Again, it has nothing to do with billing at all. As you said, AT does not bill but the lead sheet with the TMK code is crucial for Teresa to have because the code tells her she does not have to collect money then. This is my theory. Again, I don't think that this factoid, if it's true, really affects your thinking overall.
When Teresa got a lead sheet that was NOT generated from the Telemarketers, the sheet has a different code - and this tells Teresa she would indeed need to collect payment unless the buyer had pre-paid.
The other lead sheet was the hand written sheets, which only come into Teresa if the call came in the same day as the photo shoot. So that is why Avery's is hand written.
Personally, I have believed for a long time that she went to the Zip's after she went to Avery's and this is based on the odd behavior of the Zip's, the shifting testimony of Mrs. Zip and the glaring fact that Mr. Zip was purposefully barred from testifying when he obviously needed to be on the stand. Plus now the CASO report comes in and we have no freaking recorded version or transcription of the actual call from Teresa - that is really incredibly suspect.
But we have to go on facts and not feelings. We have so few real facts! I agree with you that Dawn is not telling the entire truth and that the afternoon call she describes is off. Really off - like maybe a lie. It all adds up to something - but I do not think we are there yet. Close - but not there. But I still anxiously wait for your next post!! JMO.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4gwmc8/what_if_george_zipperer_was_telling_the_truth/
Maybe the Zipperers were never in contact with Auto Trader.
ReplyDeleteby u/[deleted] at Reddit
We all have heard that Zipperer was adamant that he did not call Auto Trader or that He was not aware that Teresa was going to show up. He considered her a trespasser.
There is documentation that the appointment information came from the Florida Call Centre and sent to that district's Auto Traders Office.
Is it possible the telemarketer (individual) that created this lead was cheating/ripping off Auto Trader?
We know that Teresa made $10.00 more for "hustle" shots. How much did the Telemarketers make for their Leads?
What if They got paid by the leads instead of the hours? Would that give someone the incentive to cheat their work place system?
Considering that those who received the cold calls (from telemarketers) and accepted the appointment did not have choose the day of the shoot to have their vehicles in Auto Trader (Mrs Zipperer never paid Teresa).
They were allowed the opportunity to look over the Auto Trader package that was given to them and the photos taken that day would be on file for client if they chose to place an ad later.
Now with this in mind.
It is possible that the telemarketer instead of cold calling people did reverse look up of the numbers found in the newspapers ads they were searching. This would give them a name, address they would need to create a lead.
They would get paid for this lead and the photographer would go out to take a photo.
This would explain why Jason's name was not on the Lead and why George Zipperer was adamant that he did not call her and that she was trespassing.
I did notice that there several cancellations as well as no one home/no shows on the court exhibit of Teresa's appointment sheets from the Auto Trader .
This speculation would explain why they may have been cancelled or no shows .
I also know that this scam was happening and still happens a lot when people are paid by the leads and not the hour to many different companies. Especially if they are people that work from home.
https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/45ajmj/just_a_thought_maybe_the_zipperers_were_never_in/
magiclougie wrote:
Jason and George told Remiker that they talked to a female photographer, but they must have been confused. The female representative they talked to would have been the telemarketer who called on October 29th or 30th (had the telemarketer called earlier, the Zipperer lead would have been on Teresa's October 29th lead sheet, which was faxed to her around 7 a.m. that day).
Per Remiker's November 3rd activity report, both Jason and George talked to a female about advertising his car. If they are referring to the telemarketer who called their home, then maybe George answered the phone and gave the call to Jason since he was the one selling his car.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf
loveofnature at Reddit wrote on April 29, 2016:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4gwmc8/what_if_george_zipperer_was_telling_the_truth/
The Zipperer lead was a cold call by a telemarketer contracted by AutoTrader. They look through classified ads and call people who have auto ads running in their local paper. They set up an appointment with no obligation to purchase the ad. The local AT office is given the information and they send the photographer out to the address. The photographer takes a picture of the automobile and then leaves info about how AT works, as well as complimentary magazine, bill of sale for when the vehicle is sold, and a for sale sign for the car. The photographer is to try to close the sale but if not able to lets them know if they change their mind to call the number in the information packet and AT will place the ad accordingly. In other words, the customer could chose to send in the payment with the forms and place the ad or not.
There is no ad from a telemarketing lead unless the customer authorizes AT to create one for their magazine. Until then, the photo is put on file. If the customer decides to use AT, they call the office and make payment before an ad is run. It's likely that AT makes a follow up call to see if the customer want to use them. If the potential customer chooses not to run an ad, the photo is destroyed.
Proof that some had photos taken but no payment was collected, look at this lead/appointment sheet:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-18-Halbach-Appointment-Sheet-2005Aug05.pdf
You will see that there are a few that did not pay. The source code for those was TMK, which were telemarketing leads versus customers who called AT, whose source code was PHO. The lead sheet with the MKT code is crucial for Teresa to have because the code tells her she does not have to collect money then. When Teresa got a lead sheet that was NOT generated from the telemarketers, the sheet had a different code, and this told Teresa she needed to collect payment unless the buyer had pre-paid. The other lead sheets were the hand written sheets, which only came to Teresa if the call came in the same day as the photo shoot, which is why Avery's was hand written.
Testimony of Mrs. Zipperer (page 131):
"She came to talk to me, with some papers. She told me that I should give them to my husband and he should look them over and decide if he wanted to go ahead and put the car in the magazine. And if he did, the picture would be already taken and then all he had to do was call her the next day or whenever he decided to put it in the paper, the magazine."
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf
seaniedee
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that, no one seemed to be actually READY to list the car as testimony says Teresa had to take the time to explain how it would work IF they wanted to list the car. Strange, strange appointment.
That part is understandable. What AT does is call people who have ads in local newspapers and try to get them to also place an ad in Auto Trader. They send out someone like Teresa to take a picture and then they can call again and try to sell, them, but this time all they need is a yes to put the ad in the magazine. It's pretty standard technique.
devisan
Depends whether or not they got paid for leads that didn't culminate in a sale. In my experience with that kind of sales job, I didn't get paid until the sale went through.
That said, I think some of the testimony established that they did look up people with car ads in newspapers and call them to interest them in AT services. It's entirely possible someone called Zipperer and got a "not interested" response, but mistakenly entered them as a prospect.
There are a number of ways something like this might have happened.
[deleted]
Yes it was the gandson's car but the appointment was made in the Grandfather's name the one that would be found when you reverse look up a phone number. It is factual that it was a telemarketer that put the appointment on the books.
From my understanding from the interviews and Zipperer's reaction no one knew she was coming out. Also the grandson was arrested on the 28th of October, so I am not sure if he would of been home when the Telemarketer called.
Autumndawn30
It would have been helpful back then if investigators would have traced the appointment back to who actually called the Zipperers and asked who did they speak to and confirm the appointment with.
[deleted]
It would have been extremely useful, They could of even listen to the recording of the call. As almost all call centres record their calls.
adelltfm
If I remember correctly, they explained that these Florida telemarketers place cold calls to people who have advertised their cars in other publications. They say, "Hey, I see you have a car for sale. Have you thought about trying Auto Trader?"
CONTINUED...
[deleted]
ReplyDeleteYes you are correct it was a lead that was set up by the Telemarketers at least 24 hours before Monday.
Daddy23Hubby21
I used to work at a cold-call telemarketing company scheduling appointments for home-improvement salesmen. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the people who agreed to schedule an appointment - many of them because they were too polite to hang up on me or tell me no - totally forgot about the appointment before the salesman showed up or never had any intention of being home when the salesman stopped by. Many of the older people were particularly adamant that they had never agreed to such a thing if the salesman showed up when the scheduling party's spouse was within earshot.
[deleted]
Thank you so much for sharing your experience, it makes perfect sense as to why some did not show up or remember etc the appointments.
Do you mind if I ask a few questions. Did you get your numbers from the phone book/phone sheet? Did you ask if they were the home owner?
I am thinking that since it was Jason's name on the car and if the Telemarketer did call from a publication like newspaper, they would ask to talk to the owner of the vehicle that is for sale. Because George is name was use it is possible that they never spoke to either Jason or George. Just my thoughts.
https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/45ajmj/just_a_thought_maybe_the_zipperers_were_never_in/
Thanks again for sharing your experience with me.
Daddy23Hubby21
You're welcome. The numbers - even back before 2005 - were automatically dialed by a computer. A few seconds after I made myself "available" on the phone, I would be connected to a call. I can't remember if it rang or beeped before someone answered. We always asked for the person who the phone number was registered to (I assume), then asked them if they were the homeowner. I suspect that you're right with respect to who they would've spoken to. While we needed confirmation from the homeowner, telemarketers from AutoTrader presumably would not have needed any such confirmation.
seaniedee
This definitely could have happened, but I've worked in call centers and calls are usually monitored, so that agent would be putting their job at risk. It could have happened that way though.
If the following happened, I would not be surprised:
AT: Hello, sir, it's Jenny from Auto Trader. I notice you have a car for sale and I wanted to offer you blah blah blah.
Z: Is it gonna cost me anything?
AT: No, not unless you decide to go ahead with the offer, but for now, why don't we send a photographer out there...
Z: Whatever, I don't care! I'm not paying for anything!
AT: Of course, not. I'll set that up.
Telemarketers do get commission based on successful calls like this, and I'd bet they send photographers out on spec all the time. But a few days later, Teresa turns up and Zipperer has a different recollection of what was said or can't remember at all. (This happens a lot, and with people a lot younger than George Zipperer.) He sounds like a cranky old man whose bark is bad, but I doubt he'd shoot a person just for being on his property, particularly not a 25-year-old well-dressed girl.
CONTINUED...
Juggerknob
ReplyDeleteThe cops made the appointment. They killed her in the vicinity of Zipperer's home. Once they knew the time of Avery's appointment, they made this appointment for slightly later.
[deleted]
Sorry that theory has been debunked. Please check out my post during this discussion. It is backed up with actual facts.
/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/44wa8i/i_think_i_did_it_i_think_i_solved_the_avery_case/czv0afu?context=3
Plus why would the police make an appointment using someones name and have a file or record of it, when they could of easily picked up a Burner phone, called Teresa directly for a hustle shot saying a friend referred them to her and lure to an area where no one would be looking for her or expect her to go.
Setting up an appointment through AT would create a trail to someone else.
Classic_Griswald
You realize if they were listening to Avery's calls they would know he was making the appointment for that day right? The booking times don't mean anything.
BARB: "Steven, I thought you were putting my van in the Auto Trader"
STEVE: "Yeah Im doing it tomorrow I told you already, don't get strange."
I mean, the booking times are semi-relevant but not really, people make decisions and plans before they actually book them.
[deleted]
The problem with this is that there was no obligation for Teresa to take this shoot that day. She could of turned it down because Avery's did not call in 24 hour before hand. Thus the police would not know for sure Teresa would be showing up that day. While it was highly plausible it would still be a gamble. Teresa did not confirm she would go until after 11:00 am.
https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/45ajmj/just_a_thought_maybe_the_zipperers_were_never_in/
[–]CynAq 6 points 2 hours ago
ReplyDeleteRemember the two voice messages allegedly recorded by Janda's phone? I ran a spliced together version of the recording through sonic visualizer and came up with this melodic spectrum.
http://i.imgur.com/UIBVFMC.png
Here, part 1 of the message is where TH is talking about what time she'll be there. In part 2, she talks about not having the address.
I've marked the regions. The speech pattern changes considerably and the tonal range is also different. I'm quite positive these were recorded by two different machines at two different times.
It is the melodic range and the pattern (the actual melody and rhythm) of speech is different. pt.1 is more relaxed and musical, with more variation in pitch and volume. The second part is cramped, more monotonous and quieter. Not only they sound and feel different, they literally look different when visualized as a spectrum of volume and pitch.
Edit: This is the post I made previously about this subject. Thanks to /u/altwolf.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4gcj9i/th_phone_message_audio/
[–]NAmember81 7 points 2 hours ago
So Dawn is acting (following suggestions) as if she can't remember if she talked to Teresa or left a message??
So shouldn't there be a 4 minute+ voicemail message that she left?? If there is no voicemail that means she talked to her for over 4 minutes and can't recall if she talked to her or not.. This just doesn't sound right. 4 minutes is a long time for a phone call if it's strictly business related.
When you order pizza it seems like you were on the phone for over 6 minutes but in reality it only took a little over 2 minutes. So something is indeed not adding up with this call.
Plus in Dawn's interview they downplay Zipperer and try their best to increase Avery suspicion. The "dawn doesn't know why the Avery brothers use Janda as their name" and "Avery came out of the house wearing only a towel" sounds like stuff that isn't intentionally volunteered information but instead an attempt by investigators to create suspicious actions out of non suspicious activity.
[–]MrDoradus 7 points 3 hours ago*
Link to her phone call records.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf
* incoming call in question made at 2:27 pm
* duration 4:45 min
* tower that handled the call, iCell 21921
* last known phone call Teresa makes on her cell phone, later 2:41 pm is forwarded to voice mail, while her phone is still turned on
* same tower that the phone calls made from 2:12 pm - 2:24 pm (iCell 21923) handled the 2:27 phone call too, but prior 3 calls were made from a different location, sector cowered by the tower (last digit in the iCell shows in which sector the call was made, 1, 2, 3), which can be determined by seeing that first four digits are the same and only the last one (sector number) changed between these four calls
* last information gave rise to theory that from 2:12 pm -2:24 pm she was at the Avery property taking photos of the van then drove away
* the call that possibly puts Teresa 12 miles away is made at 2:41 pm, handled by the same tower (iCell 21101) than the 1:52 pm call (21103), just again in a different sector
* this call 2:27 is important because it lasted the longest in the day and because Dawn didn't remember actually calling Teresa, while she even stated she usually doesn't call Teresa so late in the day
* which gives rise to the theory the LE and prosecution wrongly labeled this 2:27 pm, 4:45 min long, call as being made from the Auto Trader when it wasn't
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4h8t4f/wiegertremiker_phone_call_edited_the_coverup_of/
[–]MrDoradus 8 points 2 hours ago
ReplyDeleteKratz left out both the 1:52 pm and 2:41 pm calls, handled by the same tower, out of his "call sheet". That tower should theoretically be somewhere between Schmitz and Zipperer residences, closer to Zipperer. And when Buting raised the issue of the cell tower that handled the 2:41, last known call that had the iCell information, Kratz objected to that line of questioning on the base of relevance. It was sustained.
Which could mean the prosecution even back then knew that her phone records showed she left the Avery property.
[–]lmogier 8 points 2 hours ago
Is there KK basically threatens B&S with calling in the DOJ - as if they knew something about the call data that would screw SA??
I'm really starting to think that when KK uses these sneaky BS tactics (intimidation, bullying, distractions, and avoidance of topics/issues) he knows something or is avoiding something would support SA's defense case. LIKE - BobbyD and the screw during his testimony about SA joking with MO (BobbyD's friend) about needing help disposing of a body - the date was wrong, he tried to quote something from Brendan's 'confession' and credit it to BobbyD after numerous objections and sidestepping using distraction to redirect testimony/jury's attention. I remember a podcast making mention of the sleaze move he made and while the judge sustained the defenses objection, he didn't address/correct the mistake to the jury or did so based on a minimal issue- not the bigger issue. OR Something about ST (DNA, evidence, or some other issue) that wasn't a Denny issue yet questioned something related to ST and KK was on it like flies on shit. OR Zipperer's wife was testifying about something and an issue came up that called into question something about George or Deidering and KK led the court and defense to believe that they would be being called as witnesses next (or at least Deidering) and would clarify or address the issue - yet neither ever testified.
I know all very vague - haven't been totally SA/BD/MaM focused as much lately and the details aren't coming to easily right now...sorry
[–]vapergrl 4 points an hour ago
It wouldn't be the first time a prosecution overlooked information that would help the defendant. It seems to be standard procedure for some DAs
[–]NAmember81 2 points 2 hours ago
"LE & prosecution wrongly labeled"
Isn't there objective phone records which provide the number making the call to Teresa at 2:27? Or are the records somehow "interpreted" by LE and not objective which can leave wiggle room to alter the facts??
[–]MrDoradus 5 points 2 hours ago
Cingular report doesn't list the incoming phone number, that's why they had to play the guessing game which worked in their favour during the trial.
It would have been easy to establish the 2:41 pm phone call wasn't done by Auto Trader, by checking Dawn's phone call records, from where she supposedly called her.
Another sign of a terrible investigation.
[–]foghaze[S] 7 points 3 hours ago
went to her voicemail ?
Yeah I think he was just confused about which call was VM and which was answered. We know the 2:27 call cannot be VM b/c Cingular only gives you 3 minutes total for a message. So this call was answered.
[–]FunAtTheSalvageYard
ReplyDeleteMaybe GZ agreed to the photo shoot and then forgot or lied or never told his wife, so when TH showed up, she might not have even realized until after she took the photo that there was a problem with the payment. That might have prompted a call to AT after leaving the property.
[–]FunAtTheSalvageYard
But Dawn might have misremembered or lied or have been coached to say and not say certain things.
[–]foghaze[S]
there is no doubt she was coached. There are issues with her testimony. First of all Dawn never states she spoke with Teresa at all that day in her first initial interviews. Also Kratz has on his sheet that the call was Incoming. He needed Dawn to say she called Teresa but she goofed it up. If you read that part of the testimony you can tell. Kratz even repeats what she says but won't repeat that Teresa called her. She goofed. She also says when she doesn't remember something she says she doesn't remember but this question she seems to remember vividly. That alone tells me they are hiding something regarding this call. Dawn cannot be on the phone for 5 minutes. She has other responsibilities as a receptionist and it was made clear by Buting and Dawn confirmed that all the calls were brief and lasted a couple of minutes. Yet this random call was made for no other reason but just to "talk" according to Dawn. I will get into all this in parts 2 and 3. I have thought of all this and I have very reasonable explanations as to why this call was not Autotrader based off everyone's testimony.
[–]foghaze
I don't think it's possible she was anywhere near Zander. I think that was just to throw people off. More confusion added to the mix. She was on her way to Zipperer's I believe from Avery's. She most likely would have been on I-43 south and was hoping to get the call from Zip. If she got it she would exit. If she didn't she would head home. If she didn't know where she was going then there would be no other reason than for her to go home.
[–]wanttruth
Just a tib bit of in site from someone who lives in the area, I doubt she would drive I-43, I truly think she would have taken back roads considering she knew the area well. That is what most locals do. Just a point to ponder. I know she didn't live super close i was going off the assumption that she worked the area for awhile and might know her way around, was just trying to give you a different angle as to where she could be driving. I was just saying generally people who live in rural areas tend to take back roads vs jumping on the freeway. So no need to be offended, I like the angle go are heading with this theory!
CONTINUED...
[–]AConanDoyle
ReplyDeleteSo this may explain an oddly missing item: her maps!
Why are they missing?? She never left without them. Maybe while driving and on this 5 minute call she was penciling in the route; that would clear up their disappearance
[–]foghaze
Not only that but all her papers are missing. Which even proves the car was completely staged. All her appointment info conveniently missing. Some random rapist murder does not give 2 shits about some papers. Unless the killers want to hide her actual schedule and route for some odd reason. OH! Seriously it's so obvious who did this. It gets more disturbing everyday doesn't it?
[–]ahhhreallynow
I have a question for you. I agree there is something wonky about the whole Zipperer visit but at the trial JoEllen held up a copy of the AutoTrader magazine that she said TH left on the table. If she didn't get to Zipperers then do you believe that that she is lying on the stand? It is the only thing that makes me believe she made it Zipperers.
[–]foghaze
If she didn't get to Zipperers then do you believe that that she is lying on the stand?
Either she is lying OR someone showed up and they looked like Teresa. Those would be the only 2 things I can think of that would explain everything. In this case I hope she is lying.
[–]ahhhreallynow
That poor women didn't know if she was coming or going. The only thing she seems firm on was that TH was wearing hiking shoes...not boots...shoes. Such an odd thing to say.
[–]foghaze[S]
She was "smiling" too. I thought that was odd. I also thought it odd that Teresa would just walk into someone's back yard. Did you catch that?
[–]ahhhreallynow
Something is off. I think Joellen is very afraid of her volatile husband. She also seems very confused about everything. I can't decide if its because she is scared of saying the wrong thing, she has been told what to say or she truly has memory issues.
[–]foghaze
Dedering reported he had a domestic violence charge on his record your observations could be correct.
[–]ahhhreallynow 1 point 8 hours ago
ReplyDeleteJoEllen Zipperer seems so scared. Hard to live with a man like that. W
[–]JJacks61 2 points 11 hours ago
None of that was in any of her initial interviews. It's way too sketchy.
I've always believe Kratz went overboard on the coaching. Her testimony was so vague in many ways. The original interview, talking through the window.. Just weird as hell.
[–]Lolabird61 1 point 6 hours ago*
I thought it was DC - disorderly conduct - which seems about right. LOL. I think Colborn inquired about it with a call to dispatch and there's a recording of that. DV too?
ETA: Audio link. The call begins at 1:10. http://youtu.be/GrzJQq2EkO4
[–]foghaze[S] 1 point 6 hours ago
I think I'm having an information overload ATM but here is a SS of Dedering's report where he says Domestic Violence. Does the link you show say Disorderly conduct? How many things can they possible give us that don't add up? My brain if hurting.
http://i.imgur.com/bbEnE73.jpg
Edit: In the shot I gave you notice how Dedering states in he only "REAL" incident. Do they have fake incidents? WTF?
Teresa had the address to Janda's on Avery Road, Dawn had given her the address that morning, right after the 8:12 a.m. call from Avery for a same-day appointment. She had photographed Tom Janda's cars before, so she knew Janda was at Avery Salvage Yard. Even if the name Janda had slipped her mind, she knew the address, Avery Road, was Avery Salvage Yard. She had been there five times in the past six months. Dawn talked to Teresa in the morning, and gave Teresa the B Janda name with the address on Avery Road, and Teresa told Dawn that that was the Avery brothers and that she’d be able to get the pictures that day.
ReplyDeleteIt's damn near impossible to not realize Avery Road is the Averys when she has been to Avery Salvage Yard just three weeks prior (October 10th).
Regarding the voicemail left by Teresa stating she didn't have their address, that could have only been left for Zipperer since the residents on Avery Road (Avery Salvage Yard) were repeat customers. Teresa had both Zipperer's and Avery's addresses, but Zipperer was a cold-call telemarketing lead, which Teresa would have handled differently from repeat customers (Avery had called AutoTrader that morning, specifically asking if a photographer could come take pictures that day). Some have said that she could have wanted a confirmation call back so as to not risk going to Zipperers for nothing, so by saying she didn't have their address, she was attempting to elicit a response, a call back, "playing dumb" and saying that she couldn't find the place.
Detectives Dedering returned to the Zipperers on November 6th, this time with Jacobs, who uses his cell phone to make a copy of the message Teresa left on Zipperer’s machine. It is not a coincidence that a copy of the message from Janda's machine was made on the same day. They got the messages to switch them or splice them.
It never made sense that Teresa would leave that message on Janda's machine, a same-day appointment where Dawn collected the information and gave it to Teresa, who had just been to the property three weeks earlier. She knew exactly where she was going, and that was Avery Road. Even if she wasn't sure exactly which house at Avery Salvage Yard, she would have gone to the office. Also, maybe relevant, maybe not, not only did they record the message “apparently,” they also took Janda's answering machine.
Dedering vs. Remiker & Colborn, trying to change their timelines
ReplyDeletesubmitted 2 days ago * by hos_gotta_eat_too
I found this particularly odd.
Dedering's report upon meeting with Remiker, Colborn, Jacobs..
From Dedering, and notice what is bolded in his statement
AVERY had indicated to Sgt. COLBORN that the individual who had been scheduled to take the photographs had done so, but AVERY could not recall whether the photographer had gotten there in the late morning or the afternoon. COLBORN learned that, according to AVERY, the photographer had left the Avery Rd. address and had gone on, possibly to another area.
But now look at Remiker's report, where HE talks about Colborn's visit to the Avery's, because we all know Andy isn't going to have a report filed until months later.
I, Det. Remiker, rcceived information previously that Sgt. A. Colborn made contact at the AVERY property on Avery Rd. Sgt. Colborn made contact with STEVEN AVERY and obtained information about his observations involving TERESA HALBACH. Information we received was that TERESA was at the AVERY property to take a photo of a vehicle which was possibly owned by, BARBARA JANDA. Sgt. Colborn indicated that he received information that TERESA was at the AVERY property on 10/31/05 during the afternoon hours.
Now look at Andy's report, months later, but he at least pegs the EXACT time Steven said she was there...and this is AFTER Dedering filed his report, but Andy's time reported matches up with the State's timeline
I asked STEVEN if a girl from AUTO-TRADER MAGAZINE had been on the property that day taking pictures of a vehicle that they were selling. STEVEN replied that the female had indeed been on the AVERY property and that she had been photographing a van which his sister was selling. I asked STEVEN about what time the girl was on the property. He replied that he believed it was somewhere around 1500 hours.
How are we supposed to take the investigators of the case seriously, when they have incredible contradictions like this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4htn9i/dedering_vs_remiker_colborn_trying_to_change/
[–]JLWhitaker
That's why you give preference to the earliest statements a) before memories get twisted by influence from other information and b) before the person who is documenting it has a chance to change their interpretation.
[–]tbenn585
If you listened to the recording of the O'Neill interviews with Steven, you would hear the actual conversation about TH coming into the trailer. He never said she did on Oct 31st. He said she may have on other occasions a long time ago. And there was a bunch of confusion because it becomes clear eventually that Steven means she comes up to the door of the trailer, but she never comes in. And he NEVER said she did even that on Oct 31st.
This illustrates the difference between the actual interviews, and the way LE writes the reports. In reality the reports by the officers are often not even accurate.
[–]Moby24x15
Why would anyone belief Colburn? It would be nice to know why he called the plates in two days before the car was found and why he was so involved in the case but yet he wrote almost no reports on his actions (half a page as I recall). Then the fact that he and Lenk were so involved in a case that dealt with a person that had a civil suit ongoing that they had been personally deposed for. Professionalism should have required them to recluse themselves from it to protect the integrity of the investigation.
[–]Powerdan74
The problem with your statements are these are reports of what somebody said based on subjective notes the officers make if any notes were made at all. Colborn testified that he didn't have any notes. We are not reading or hearing the actual words the person used. Combine all of that with the fact that some of the reports were made up to a year after the events, these reports are not going to be accurate.
[–]freerudyguede 4 points 17 days ago
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I am coming round to your idea the answering machine messages were swopped and what we heard was the message for the Zipperers
Perhaps the one she left on the Jandas' machine made it clear that Barbara had organized the appointment and not Steven?
[–]foghaze[S] 4 points 17 days ago*
I think one of 2 things. By 11/6 (when they report getting the Message off Janda's machine) it had either already been deleted or something within that message contradicted the state's narrative. Perhaps the timeline. According to Blaine Dassey's very first interview on 11/7 he says the lady who left the message from Autotrader said she would be there somewhere between 1-2.
[–]Sacredtrust61 2 points 17 days ago
And Pagel states in old news articles from the fourth and the fifth before the car was found that her stop at averys was 1:30 and her last stop was 1:30.
[–]foghaze[S] 2 points 17 days ago
And Pagel states in old news articles from the fourth and the fifth before the car was found that her stop at averys was 1:30 and her last stop was 1:30.
Really? Do you have this source because it would make way more sense. Dawn says Teresa rarely works after 1pm.
[–]Sacredtrust61 2 points 16 days ago
From websleuths http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?31696-WI-Teresa-Marie-Halbach-25-Manitowoc-31-Oct-2005 "Pagel said Halbach works as a freelance photographer for auto dealers, and was last seen at an appointment in Manitowoc about 1:30 p.m. Monday. " (Nov. 4,2005 Post Crescent Article)
And from a Post Crescent article, Nov.5, 2005 pre car find:
"Calumet Sheriff Jerry Pagel said his department and police in Manitowoc County opened investigations immediately. Investigators said she was last seen at a 1:30 p.m. appointment in Manitowoc, photographing a vehicle being listed for sale in Auto Trader. "It is out of character for her not to have contact with family or friends for this length of time," Pagel said. "This is behavior that is not normal for this young lady. It's suspicious. Parents, friends, relatives, nobody has had any contact with her since the 31st."
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4hyh6r/i_have_confirmation_the_wiegert_remiker_phone/
Defense claims missing evidence in seeking new trial for Avery
ReplyDeleteJohn Ferak , USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin Published 9:28 a.m. CT June 22, 2017
Attorney Kathleen Zellner is taking aim at the conduct of prosecutors and investigators in an attempt to convince a judge that convicted murderer Steven Avery deserves a new trial.
Zellner is focusing on special prosecutor Ken Kratz, Manitowoc County detective Dennis Jacobs and Calumet County investigator John Dedering, who is now retired, in post-conviction court documents filed recently at the Manitowoc County courthouse.
Zellner contends that someone involved with Avery's prosecution intentionally lost or destroyed a crucial audio recording of murder victim Teresa Halbach's voice from her last day alive.
Shortly after 2 p.m. on Oct. 31, 2005, Halbach left a voicemail message on the home answering machine of George and JoEllen Zipperer, an older couple living north of Manitowoc. The couple lived about 10 miles from Avery Salvage.
"The voicemail ... was copied by MCSD Detective Dennis Jacobs onto a CD. The CD of Ms. Halbach's voicemail recording on the Zipperer answering machine was never turned over to trial defense counsel and has allegedly disappeared," Zellner wrote in her recent post-conviction filing, asking Sheboygan County Judge Angela Sutkiewicz to grant Avery a new trial.
"Clearly, the destruction and/or concealment of Ms. Halbach's voicemail message to the Zipperers' leads to the reasonable conclusion that her voicemail refuted Mr. Kratz's timeline and so it was concealed from trial defense counsel," Zellner wrote.
Kratz did not respond to USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin's request seeking comment on several allegations contained within Zellner's motion. She accuses Kratz of prosecutorial misconduct, claiming he violated Avery's right to a fair trial more than a decade ago.
If Zellner can prove at least one "Brady violation" occurred, the judge will typically overturn the conviction and order a new trial, said Daniel Medwed, a law professor at Northeastern University in Boston.
CONTINUED...
A Brady violation is defined as the prosecution's failure to disclose evidence to the defense team, depriving a criminal defendant of a fair trial.
ReplyDelete"It's a rule that's designed to even the playing field because prosecutors typically of course have all the power in having access to information," Medwed told USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin this week.
Uncovering a Brady violation on the issue of whether Halbach left the Avery property alive would be vitally important, he added.
"That would be very strong evidence," Medwed said. "In theory, evidence suggesting that Teresa Halbach was somewhere else other than the Avery compound could be compelling evidence."
Zellner has accused Kratz of committing four Brady violations as part of his quest to convict Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey.
Missing CD of Zipperer voicemail message
Zellner determined the now-missing CD was made after a second visit to the Zipperers' home by Jacobs and Dedering.
"Suspiciously, Mr. Kratz never played the recording of the 2:12 p.m. voicemail for the jury," Zellner stated in her 1,250-page post-conviction motion. "It is reasonable to conclude that Mr. Kratz concealed the 2:12 p.m. voicemail because it confirmed that the Zipperers' residence was Ms. Halbach's last stop."
To bolster her contention, Zellner has provided the judge with a recorded phone conversation from the morning of Saturday, Nov. 5, 2005, involving Calumet investigator Mark Wiegert and Manitowoc County Detective Dave Remiker.
"In that conversation ... they concluded that Ms. Halbach's first appointment was with Mr. (Steven) Schmitz, her second appointment was with the Averys and her third appointment was with the Zipperers," Zellner stated.
"Obviously, Investigator Wiegert and Detective Remiker based their conclusion on the Zipperer voicemail left by Ms. Halbach, which was listened to by investigators on Nov. 3, 2005 at the Zipperer residence."
CONTINUED...
On the night of Nov. 3, 2005 — hours after Halbach's mother reported her daughter missing — Dedering, Remiker and Manitowoc County Sgt. Andrew Colborn drove out to question the Zipperers. "I did review the voicemail messages from Teresa Halbach indicating that she was calling on Monday about 2:15 p.m.," Dedering stated in his report.
ReplyDeleteThen on Nov. 6, 2005 — the day after Pam Sturm spotted the RAV4 on the Avery property — Jacobs and Dedering returned to the Zipperer home a second time.
"It should be noted that this voice mail message or answering machine message was subsequently copied by Detective Jacobs on Sunday, Nov. 6, 2005," Dedering stated.
Jacobs, however, produced no written reports to document any of his investigative activities during the entire eight-day homicide investigation related to the Avery Salvage Yard, even though Jacobs was one of the mainstays. Jacobs has been a member of his agency's detective unit since around 2000.
This April 20, Assistant Attorney General Tom Fallon advised Zellner that "neither Calumet County nor the Manitowoc Sheriff's Departments have been able to locate the CD of Ms. Halbach's voicemail left on the Zipperer answering machine."
Zellner told USA TODAY NETWORK there was no apparent chain of custody evidence log for the CD made by Jacobs.
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/local/steven-avery/2017/06/22/defense-claims-missing-evidence-seeking-new-trial-avery/397782001/
[–]HuNuWutWen 5 points 8 months ago
ReplyDeleteYup, I agree with you...I just didn't explain myself very well...
..."they" had the rav4, and all the "evidence", since the evening of the 31st...they had to wait for TH to be reported missing before they could "investigate", and to justify being around Avery's place...and before they could set about framing Avery...
...Lenk didn't get a chance to plant the key on the 4th, when he "searched" Steven's trailer...I think Avery just shadowed Lenk and Remiker around...I'm still surprised that Steven would allow these particular people a no-warrant access...
...that is why they took the chance of slithering in the back of the yard, in the wee small hours, with the rav4...Pagel's aerial video showed them the way in...
...if Lenk had been able to stash the key, they could've just left the rav4 at "3302 Zander Rd" or someplace...because obviously, the key connected Avery to the vehicle, and then a little of his blood, and BINGO ! ...
...how the hell did Teresa's cell phone magically find it's way back from Whitelaw to Avery's burn barrel?...never did figure that out...anyways...lol
..."they" had no idea that Steven and the whole family were going to leave the property for the weekend...BONUS !!...they had the place all to themselves....GO BANANAS !!
...but the night of the 4th, "they" just couldn't wait, and they wouldn't have any way of knowing if they would get another chance...
... they had been to ASY twice already, Avery would become wary...
...yet they still didn't have a statement from GZ ?...isn't that odd?...apparently the Z family were unable to locate their front door...imagine that?...3 adults trapped inside , while 3 COPS on the front porch rapped feverishly...in a futile effort to liberate the "hostages"...lol...
...I heard that Colborn locked his keys in his car...yeah...took him 3 hours to get Remiker out...lol...
...a lot of things about the Z family just don't ring true for me...but hey...
..."they" needed to link Avery to the crime, and the rav4 was undeniable... they locked/disabled it...I think AC and JL delivered it, then they sat in the quarry in a cruiser with eyes on it, until Pam of God showed up...
...all the other nonsensical "evidence" was salted into the scene over the next few days,and then "discovered"...
...the "bones" were never even at Avery's property...and there is absolutely no verifiable chain of custody docs or photos...so...
..Kathleen Zellner is awesome...she will expose the truth...
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/5om5um/whats_used_9999_of_the_time_to_identify_a_vehicle/
Did BoD Pick Up? (self.TickTockManitowoc)
ReplyDeletesubmitted 4 days ago * by bennybaku
While I have been highly critical of KZ, I think she has made probative strides in proving TH left the Salvage yard. With the recent affidavit of Bryan, holding up to what he said in the 2005 interview, he was aware she left. In the phone call between Steve and his sister, both she and Scott knew via Bobby, TH left the salvage yard. That in itself is huge. Why the lies in 2005, we have yet to figure out. I do think KZ does know the answer to that one, but we can only speculate.
The computer information found by KZ opens the door further. Not just the porno, more importantly Bobby was up and on the computer on Oct. 31st when he said he was "dead" asleep.
Why is this Important to the case?
1) he lied, why?
2) he very well could have heard TH's voice message. I think he just might have.
Here is Why I suspect he did.
TH called the Janda residence at 11:43, the call was one minute and five seconds. The voice message on the Janda machine is approximately, all in all, 34 or 35 seconds long. However the Janda call lasts for 1:05 via TH cingular cell phone record. It seems to me this is indicative of a conversation. Most message machines when one wants to intercept the incoming message need only pick up and the recorder stops. I am going to speculate this machine Uniden did this as well. However the call doesn't sound like it was interrupted but before she moves on to she didn't have the address, she says please give me a call back if we need to reschedule. IF you add in the possibility the phone call was spliced with the Zipp call, we wouldn't hear if Bobby picked up and spoke with her. So if you time the first part of the message it would be about 19 seconds or 21 seconds long, she says, "Please give me a call back and let me know if that will work for you." I suspect this is when Bobby picked up, they had about about an 86 second long conversation, and Bobby told her the appointment would work for them.
Bobby now knows approximately what time she would arrive. Somewhere I recall Steve said, earlier he had spoken with Bobby. Bobby could have told him TH called and what approximate time she would arrive, I don't know, purely speculation on my part. She may have been more precise as to her arrival in the conversation. This is speculation on my part, In no way does this mean Bobby was responsible for her death. It does explain why when she asked for a call back "if this works for you", or even if the whole message was on the Janda machine, that she couldn't come out if she didn't get a call back, why indeed she did show up. For me this makes sense and answers that piece of the puzzle. We know she did not speak to Steve, but she had to have spoken to someone, and she did know exactly where she was going.
Edit time, message around 35, total call around 65 seconds, time left for talking together - 30 seconds, not 86.
CONTINUED...
[–]OpenMind4U 4 points 3 days ago
ReplyDeleteNo, BoD didn’t answer the call
But he COULD HEAR the 'Ring time' + 'TH message', right?:)...Hear means knows...otherwise, if he saw TH on his family's property/driveway (as he claimed) then why didn't he come out and ask her what she's doing here, next to his Mom's van?...
...Bobby knew TH is coming and he knew why she's coming...but the MOST IMPORTANT (!!!) Bobby knew that his mom gives permission to Steven to take care of this 'sell advertisement'. Too bad and so unfortunate for SA...It should be Bobby to deal with his Mom's car when nobody's home but only him!...and not to turn his back on his brother and uncle with his perjury testimony.
[–]bennybaku[S] 2 points 2 days ago
I think this is a very good point. Irregardless if he picked it up, he knows when she approximately will arrive. Around that time, he is standing in the kitchen watching her drive in their U-shaped driveway, not Steves driveway.
[–]bennybaku[S] 1 point 3 days ago
I should correct that, as you can see Math isn't my best gift!
[–]Northof_49 4 points 3 days ago
Another detail that makes me think th had a conversation with BoD is that she knew to go to the j residence. No one reported that she stopped in to the office to get directions to the van. It could have been anywhere on that 40 acres.
The truth needs to come out from BoD . I think being told "Steve says you were the last one to see her" must have freaked him right out. Involved or not, that would be a pretty frightening thing to hear. The last thing he would do is admit to actually talking to th.
[–]bennybaku[S] 4 points 3 days ago
Another detail that makes me think th had a conversation with BoD is that she knew to go to the j residence. No one reported that she stopped in to the office to get directions to the van. It could have been anywhere on that 40 acres.
This exact statement is right on. For the longest time we have all wondered, if this message on the machine which says she can't come out why did she show up?
[–]JJacks61 2 points 3 days ago
I think being told "Steve says you were the last one to see her" must have freaked him right out.
I remember Steven making this statement at some point, I just cannot place the date atm. Sometime in 2006 I think.
And yea, I believe this was used against him by McSweaty.
[–]skippymofo 5 points 3 days ago
SA told Jodi that Bobby was the last one to see Teresa.
[–]JJacks61 1 point 2 days ago
SA told Jodi that Bobby was the last one to see Teresa.
Ah yes, I remember now. This is interesting, but I'm wondering if SA knew about BryD's statement.
[–]bennybaku[S] 3 points 2 days ago
I think Steve thought they all knew she left. He wasn't implying that Bobby had anything to do with it. However LE used it or framed it in such a way Bobby would think he was pointing the finger at him. Just as they did with the rest of the family. It was an interesting technique to separate the family from him. Soon after they moved against them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7f1zh0/did_bod_pick_up/
Switching Answering Machine Recordings (i.redd.it)
ReplyDeleteby Phantas66
[–]SBRH33
This report is actually quite revealing as it shows the FIXER at work.
Dedering went into the Zipperer house on the night of November 3rd 2005 and allegedly listened to the actual voicemail left at the Zipperers by Teresa Halbach on the 31st of October.
Dedering was then able to make a determination on the approximate time that Teresa came to the Zipperer property
How did did Dedering determine an approximate time for Halbach's visit from the answering machine message?
Joellen made a statement to LE on the 3rd of Novemeber that claimed that Halbach was at her house sometime around 3pm or after. Is that the same approximate time that Dedering had also come up with after listening to the answering machine? Why did Dedering omit this critical information from his report?
Mark Wiegart and Dave Remiker had already determined that Zipperer was Halbach's last stop by the early morning of November 5th 2005. What gave Wiegart that idea? What information was Wiegart working from if it didn't come directly from Dedering himself? That same morning Dedering had disappeared with the newly acquired phone records for Teresa Halbach.
The RAV4 is discovered on the Avery property a little later on the morning of Novemeber 5th.
Suddenly all eyes are focused on Steven Avery. "Do we have Avery in custody yet?"
Dedering returns to the Zipperers on Sunday the 6th and dictates for Joellen a timeline that shifted Teresa's appointment with Avery to being her last one on the 31st of October never to be herd from again.
A little fix here a little fix there.
I hope someday soon Dedering will be subpoenaed to testify regarding his investigative actions and report cooking during the Halbach Investigation.
CONTINUED...
[–]SBRH33
ReplyDeleteWhen any law enforcement make contact with anyone during an investigation a report must be generated regarding the contact.
The reports are crucial and mandatory to submit in the department file.
Dedering develops a report that covers the mandatory aspect of the interview at Zipperers on the night of the 3rd. But omits any meaning information regarding his estimable time frame when Teresa had allegedly stopped at the Zipperer house.
Why author a report that states Joellen couldn't remember anything regarding the time that Teresa had paid a visit to her house, then go on to state that he listened to the answering machine message and that he developed his own estimated time of Teresa's visit then not add that time observation to his report. Then he takes a statement that Joellen thinks it was 3pm or later that Teresa showed up at the house.
Dedering must have also believed, as Joellen stated, that Teresa showed up after 3pm or later on the 31st... or Dedering is bending the truth in his report about listening to an answering machine message at Zipperers.
The entire scenario makes little sense.
Then for Dedering to go back to Zipperers the day after the RAV4 is found and walk Joellen Zipperer down a path to indicate that Teresa was with certainty at her house at 2pm on the 31st... which completely changed her original statements on the 3rd and whitewashed Dederings own alleged assumption of the time Teresa visited... Its a travesty he left out that information in his original report... but you can see why he did. It left a lot of wiggle room to actually cook the books later on... as we see him do on the 6th. Dedering took two swings at the ball before making "contact" with that third time with Joellen on the 6th.
Now if I am not mistaken and maybe this can be cross referenced.
But wasn't it Remiker who entered the Janda house on the 5th with other officers in tow to sweep through the house, and it was then that they listened to the Janda machine discovering a message from Teresa on it?
Then the very next day DEDERING is at Zipperer's generating another statement with Joellen's signature that she now remembers it being 2pm when Teresa stopped by.
To me it seems obvious what had occurred.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/8s4tgd/switching_answering_machine_recordings/
[–]kent3334[S]
ReplyDeleteThe time stamp at the end has also been recorded off of the BJ phone. "Monday, 12:25 a.m." is part of the spliced recording.
We know this because this style phone/machine time stamps at the end of each message. This phone also treats a memo being recorded as an in coming call and time stamps it the end. So when they recorded this spliced message on BJ memo function I believe it was Tue the 8th.
I believe this because after the entire message is played the actual time stamp to the spliced recording starts saying Tue then the camera stops. It is the second time stamp in a row indicating the first time stamp was in the recording LE made. You can see they tried to stop the camera recording before it went that far but accidentally took a picture. Sorry for any grammar errors.
What they want us to believe is with 3 boys and a mother in the house there were no messages left in the minimum time of 24 hours from "Monday 12:25 A.M." until "Tue. the 1st." (The Tue. time stamp in my theory is actually the 8th when they recorded the memo.)
I do have one fact, and it is that this model Uniden has a feature from the factory called "Calling party control feature" this feature resets the machine if someone hangs up, and does not allow the machine to record a hang up or dial tone call.
[–]jakse1
Maybe the message left on the vm was actually from a previously scheduled appointment. She took pictures for TJ prior to the 31st. Maybe Bod actually picked up when she called on the 31st which is how she knew it was at the ASY.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7gkhe0/since_we_are_back_on_the_bj_phone_message/
LougieMagic
ReplyDeleteGood point. If the lead came from Autotrader, TH would have had the customer's name, address and phone number(s), per trial exhibits 17-22. So this recorded VM from TH, saying she doesn't have their address or anything and needs a callback, must have been from the answering machine of a person not referred to TH by AT (a hustle shot). It could have come from any answering machine on any day, not just Barb's or Zipperer's on 10/31. Or Teresa could have recorded it just for the purpose of future planting by LE on Barb's machine if TH was in on the plan to disappear and frame Avery.
Richard Boyd
Planting on Barb's answering machine? What you are saying is, the Cops could just call up the Janda's phone number and played the recording calling from say, Mark Wigert or Tom Fassbender's phone?
Fuck!
Good point!
LougieMagic
@Richard Boyd I wish I had saved a comment on reddit about how TH's VM message played in MaM (which was a video of the Janda machine and audio of the message, or something like that) was not an actual incoming message recorded on the Janda machine. I can't really explain it myself. The MaM footage would be a good thing to watch of the VM playback.
LougieMagic
@Richard Boyd I found the comments from redditor kent3334. "Message was recorded on to a CD....then re-recorded on to Barb's home phone answering machine. I can prove it to a 98% certainty. I read the manual to that machine front to back, over and over. Owned a camera that operated like the one they used to video that answering machine message. (Accidentally pushing the shutter button to stop video.) What that answering machine plays on that video is impossible without manipulating the machine."
https://reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/czub7y/cd_with_evidence_tape/
LougieMagic
@Richard Boyd kent3334 also wrote on another thread: That message was put on this machine via “memo.” This is not a voicemail message. The facts are, this machine does not work the way it is recorded on video. Two separate time stamps at the end are impossible by accident, but works when purposely altered. The first time stamp of “Monday 12:25 AM” is part of the memo recorded onto this machine. After the accidental push of the shutter button, another time stamp of “Tue“ comes on (that is the actual time stamp of this message), and that is not possible with this machine. The actual times on this machine don’t really mean shit.
LougieMagic
I found another comment by kent3334 that explains it a little better: "This Uniden model timestamps at the end of each message. This model also treats a memo being recorded as an incoming call, and timestamps it at the end. So when LE recorded this message on BJ's memo function, it was Tuesday the 8th - the recording starts saying "Tuesday," then the camera stops. You can see they tried to stop the camera recording before it went that far but accidentally took a picture. I believe LE made sure BoD didn't hear the message, that way there's no testifying about it to keep his BS to a minimum and so he won't get confused."
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/7gkhe0/since_we_are_back_on_the_bj_phone_message/
@Richard Boyd One more thing from this reddit post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/88v48f/barb_volley_2/
"Not sure when the machine was ascertained by LE. Note the Teresa message is the last message, #6. This is why the CD was not found by the state. One, the message could be dissected by KZ, where they could tell it was rerecorded by another device. Secondly the other 5 messages could be tracked down to see when each person who left a message called."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgf_3Cmf-O4
https://youtu.be/bqCDLa9c1B4