The eyewitness phone call I would really love to have heard ...
By onepieceofgumleft, TickTockManitowoc
March 29, 2017
Most people here are probably aware of the 40 mins of recorded calls to MCSO ... the ones that start with Andy Colborn talking about Carmen Boutwell.
I don't know about others, but I believe those recordings are full of clues to this case.
There's one call in particular that I think might be very important , but we don't get to hear it, because the caller is quickly transferred to CASO, because, you know, they were handling the investigation :/
The call was from a lady from Maribel named B--- L-------- (link below). The call has been mentioned here a couple of times, but I haven't seen anyone make the following connection, and it's the reason I'd love to hear the tip she had for LE.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GrzJQq2EkO4&t=23m45s
For those who don't know, BL (caller I mention above) owned the Cedar Ridge Restaurant in Maribel (image below from November 2015).
Cedar Ridge Restaurant closed down, but you can still find the address if you Google the restaurant name (located at 9251 County Rd Z, Maribel, WI 54227).
County Road Z is what Hwy 147 becomes just after crossing I-43 as you approach Maribel.
On a rural road, I imagine you'd get very familiar with the most of the vehicles that came and went and passed everyday. And you'd probably become fairly aware of strange vehicles that you didn't see on a regular basis.
And if there was a rental property across the road from your restaurant that lacked tenants for a time, you'd probably notice the lack of vehicles on the property, as well as the lack of people coming and going, as it's one of the only things you have to look at out the windows everyday. If a vehicle showed up all of sudden, when there hadn't been any sign of life on the property for some time, it might catch your attention.
On Monday, October 31, 2005, mid afternoon, I imagine it's a good bet that the owner of a restaurant would be on the premises of their business.
Now, consider this ....
Steven Avery said Teresa Halbach turned left on Hwy 147, taking her towards Maribel. Could it be possible that BL (the owner of Cedar Ridge) saw TH's vehicle shortly after she left SA's appointment? ... Possibly pulling into the property across the road? I personally think it's a possibility.
And here's the kicker (for those who don't know this), the house that the German's estranged wife was moving into at the time, is the house (9414 County Road Z, Maribel, WI) I'm referring to, right across the road from BL's restaurant (Cedar Ridge).
Maribel has a number of connections to TH's murder, and this might be one of the strongest IMO.
[-] foghaze
Wow! Nice find on the buildings being removed. More strangely suspicious coincidence!
Very suspicous. These aren't small buildings either. I don't know what it was but it reminds me of, a chicken farm? Notice how these buildings are all there in 2005 and missing in 2010? Wonder what they are?
[–]stateurname
Just wrote about the outbuildings before reading down all the way. I think it was also weird that she -- the German's wife -- felt like she needed to move out of state.
[–]Colorado_love
Who's the German?
[-] anditurnedaround
I know his real name, but I think we are not allowed to post. He was a man that had a wife that complained about some odd behaviors and evidence at her home. At one point I believe she described to the police she thought he may have had something to do with TH's murder.
Someone posted on reddit saying they were the wife and that her husband was not involved at all.
You can find a lot of information by googling German man/reddit/MaM.
There is a blogger that has the original police reports, I believe. It might be the guy that just wrote a book, Attwood. Letters from the wife supposedly as well.
ETA: the person claiming to be the wife that was on reddit had also indicated KZ's investigators were asking her questions, and she basically said they were barking up the wrong tree (my words not hers, it was so long ago when I read it).
ETA:https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6w4p/evidence_of_a_new_suspect/
[–]pinkynarfs
I just read this MAM post you linked that describes the citizen's account of the German's odd behavior, and about a third of the way through the post she says she found a boom box along with "Cherry Pepsi Cola" cans near the steps of her Maribel home. Then I remembered the blue and red soda can that is pictured in TH's RAV4 cup holder with a napkin around it.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-293-passenger-door-view.jpg
It looks strikingly similar to this pic I found of what wild cherry Pepsi looked like from 2005-2010 according to Wikipedia (scroll down the wiki page a bit for the pic).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Wild_Cherry
Maybe the can in TH's car is actually the German's and this is the signature the killer left at the crime scene that Zellner hinted at?
[–]foghaze
Many were wondering why Michael Grieshbach talked about this (the German) in his book. It seems very relevant.
Are you a local?
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
Not a local, no. Just researched a lot of past posts from locals (the one I mentioned in particular).
And I agree, I think Griesbach including this "second" suspect in his book was somewhat suspicious by its inclusion.
[–]foghaze
Do you know where this whole story originated? Was it from Grieshbach's book? Was it a local story?
The reason I ask is because I'm finding a lot of holes. He wasn't arrested for this until 1/19/06. Furthermore it was for burglary, resisting an officer, bail jumping and intimidating a victim. All charges dismissed except resisting an officer. Nothing about spousal abuse either. What did he do break into his own house? I also found where they were evicted in 10/05 from their Bonduel home. His arrest records do not corroborate when all this was supposed to have gone down. I'm trying to figure out the origin of the story because it really is just a rumor at this point.
Also this person claiming to be the Russian's wife is suspicious. She knows a lot and knows many details and knows what to say to try to debunk something. She knows names of people in Manitowoc when she only lived there for 3 months supposedly. I just read over some of her replies over the past year and she is some expert on cell towers too? Also note this German man didn't speak a lick of English. He had to have an interpreter for court. This means she would almost have to speak Russian. I honestly question if this is actually her. Something about the whole thing stinks.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
I don't know for sure, but I assume the story originated at the time. The ex-wife claims she was trying to get anyone to listen back then. And it's been proven in this case that word travels around a rural community.
And yes, it's very strange that her posts have changed so dramatically after coming forward on line with her story over a year ago. I don't think it's beyond possibility that "someone" is behind the sudden change in the form of damage control.
[–]skippymofo
Maybe I can try talking with him on FB. I am not not sure. I am not a stalker. I have some problems asking an unknown man, "Hey do you know, you are the strange German."
[–]FunAtTheSalvageYard
I emailed back and forth with Mrs. German over a year ago. I'll post our conversation in case anyone finds it helpful -- I went through and changed full names to initials.
(Part One)
The boom box and cherry pepsi can
Me to her:
[–]to primak
Hi, I hope you don't mind that I am sending you this note, but a new reddit poster today asked why TH had a CD case on her front seat when she didn't have a CD player in her car. I thought nothing of it, but then was reading another post that was asking for an update on the German man, which led me back to Convoluted Brian's website, where I re-read what he wrote. (I'd read it a few weeks earlier, too.)
You are the woman who he's referring to, right? If so, I was hoping you could tell me more about the boom box and soda can - specifically, WHEN you saw them and if you reported them when you made your initial report to the police? (or a later report)
Was there a CD in the boombox, do you remember? If so, what was it? Whatever happened to the boombox and what details do you recall about it? I mean, obviously the boombox was out of the ordinary to you - like, not at the property when you'd been there before - or you wouldn't have mentioned it.
My line of thinking, if it isn't already obvious, is that maybe that boombox belonged to TH and she listened to CDs while she did her driving/photography, and that the German somehow took it from her, leaving the CD case on her seat. It might be a long shot, but it also could be a piece of information completely overlooked - you, at the time, couldn't have known about the CD case but no CD player in TH's car or the fact that she drank Cherry Pepsi. Maybe nobody knew of the relevance of either of those things at the time. You see where I'm going with this?
Thank you in advance for reading this. I know you've gotten some heat on these boards, but I'm glad you're still here and reading and participating. Another question - what type of vehicle did the German man drive? Thank you! Be well!
P.S. I think it's also possibly that TH was killed at/near the property you rented yet it might NOT be the German man. If the property was vacant for a long time, other people could have used the property as well. P.S.S. What did the German man do for money? Thanks!
Her to me:
[–]from primak
I wasn't aware that she had no CD player in the rav4, but knowing that now sure sheds some light on the boombox I found. I found it on the afternoon of Friday, Nov. 4, 2005, when I drove there to meet my then husband at the Maribel house with a loan of items in my car as that was the official day I began moving in. That was the first day I had been at the property since the walk through with the realtor, which was probably the week before Halloween.
I had given my husband specific instructions to not go there before Nov. 4, which he ignored, because he made problems with every landlord we ever had and I was trying to avoid any problems! I had post dated the check for the rental to match my payday and taken that day off from work to move over the weekend. He did not work and had money only from me.
I did not look to see if there was a CD in the boombox. It was red in color with some gray I believe. But, I know it was red.
There were 2 cherry pepsi cans, empty beside it. We did not have any cherry pepsi at the time and I do not drink soda at all, never have, but he did drink pepsi in particular.
As soon as I got out of my car and walked toward the side door of the house I saw the boombox and cans sitting near the door steps and asked him where that had come from because when I walked through the house with the realtor, I did not see that there. He said immediately that the boom box did not work. I asked how he could know because he had had NO key to enter the house all week, but he did not answer.
After taking some things into the house I found a trash bag that was with the items we had moved there and placed the boombox and cans in a trashbag, which was then filled with other trash and thrown away, picked up by garbage truck. He was driving my second car, a 1989 Audi 100, silver in color with PA plates.
Other people could have used the property, but the problem with that theory is that he admitted to being at that property on Oct. 31, Nov. 1-3 when there was NO reason for him to have been there, he had NO key to enter house (I had key with me and was given only one key by realtor) and since he was there, would he not have noticed that someone else was there? I guess maybe he would not have depending on times, etc.
I reported everything to Dennis J. and there was another detective present I believe it to have been Rem.... But was told later there was no report written and no record of me having been there. You must understand, I was there for about 2 hours on Jan 4, 2006 and they listened but convinced me it was all irrelevant.
After that BC (she is married to the brother of the sheriff Ken P) from the victim witness program threatened me that if I contacted anyone there about my husband anymore I would be charged with criminal harassment. So I did not contact them anymore.
[–]from primak
Do you know for a fact that her car had no CD player in it? Do you know if that was her CD case for sure that was found in the vehicle?
[–]from primak
from the dash pics of her vehicle, it appears it did have a CD player built in
[–]from primak
You are also mixing up dates. I had not yet found the underwear when he was arrested Nov. 6. I did not suspect him until Jan 2006 when I found numerous things that seemed suspicious. By that time, Avery had already been charged with the murder. I was new to the state and really was not aware of any Steven Avery and not really even aware of this murder.
[–]FunAtTheSalvageYard
Part Two:
Me to her:
[–]to primak
Hi! Thanks so much for getting back to me. I'm sorry if I'm missing up timelines and dates. Some of what the guy on Convoluted Brian wasn't clear in those regards. As of this morning's comments and updates, it seems there was NOT a CD player as part of her stereo system. (It occurred to me that even if there was, that doesn't mean TH would not have had a boombox anyway because she might have wanted one at work/home and taken it back and forth. Or, even if TH had a CD player in her car- which I don't think she did - it might not have been working.)
In regards to your question about was the CD case really hers, I don't recall ever seeing it's been suggested it wasn't. According to court transcripts I came across this morning, it was found in the back seat of the car and was covered in blood.
I really feel for you and what you went through, not only with that relationship, but how you were treated by the police and BC! It's offensive. I absolutely cannot stand when people in positions of power abuse that power. That's what keeps me here on reddit now. And then all that KK harassing female victims - unbelievable! (BTW, I wonder how much BC. knew or suspected about KK's behavior, and I also wonder if there is bad blood between them now for any reason.)
What's your best guess as to what really happened at this point? I suppose there is still so much we don't know, but I do believe TH left the Avery property that day, and I think she probably was taking photos on the side of the road somewhere like that caller (Knutson?) suggested she was.
That whole BJ reporting she'd seen a car-deer accident was interesting, although so lacking in specifics. I wonder if TH hit a deer, and someone - maybe your husband, maybe another stranger, stopped to see if she was OK, and it was a crime of opportunity.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the car and body was probably taken to the quarry.
Ready for my next question? The yellow panties you found - do you recall what date you found them and when you gave them to the police? My newest conspiracy theory is that maybe the police DID believe you, but just like with SA's arrest for the rape, they had already decided to go after him. It was the SAME single-minded behavior they'd just gotten sued for.
Anyway, my theory is that maybe the blood on those panties was indeed TH's and THAT was used to provide what was presented as her pap smear. I wonder how thoroughly the defense checked to make sure the pap smear indeed came from a clinic in GB. I was surprised when I first read it that a pap smear would be saved like that, and then someone posted today that it would NOT have been.
So the date you turned it over to the police could be important. If they had the pap smear prior to that, I suppose it would in no way be connected, but if they got the pap smear after, then it might be.
It's been nice connecting with you, and I sure hope we get to the bottom of things, AND that as a result of this publicity, police departments all around the country start taking their duties to the citizens more seriously.
Her to me:
[–]from primak
OK, I wasn't asking if the CD case was really hers, I was asking if it was a CD case or a portable CD player? The photo is very bad and unable to see it. It should have been photographed separately and labeled. I know they refer to it as a CD case, but their investigative work is so unprofessional, it's hard to say what is accurate and what is not.
BC worked for Manitowoc county. KK worked for Calumet county, two different counties.
BC worked in MG's office, NOT KK's office.
I found the pair of underwear around Nov. 7 or 8, 2005, but did not give them to the sheriff until January 3, 2006, after I found other odd things. People are also misinterpreting that underwear. There was no recent blood in the underwear. It was an old stain that had been laundered at least once if not more.
So, they did not have the underwear until way after Avery had already been charged with the murder.
The deer was hit Nov. 3, 2005, which would have been a Thursday, according to BoD, and SA told police it happened on Nov. 4, Friday. In any case, it did not happen Oct. 31. The deer tag was dated Nov. 4 and Bobby said he got the tag the morning after, so Nov. 3 is most likely when the deer was hit.
I would say the person claiming that pap smear slides are not kept is probably incorrect. My first husband (not the German one) sold microscopes to research labs and he sometimes had slides of pap smears that he was given to use for microscope testing, comparison, etc. I remember it very well, because I thought it kind of creepy to be carrying around a slice of some woman's uterus.
Me to her:
[–]to primak
Thanks for clearing all that up! If I find more on the CD case, I'll let you know. I bet there is a picture of it somewhere that just hasn't been made public yet, or that is but hasn't been noted yet.
Her to me:
[–]from primak
I think it's way too presumptuous to assume the boombox belonged to Halbach. Only a person who actually knew her could confirm that. But, none of them are going to ever answer any questions unless legally forced to. The cow photos were allegedly in the town of Valders, quite far from Averys salvage and the farm house in Maribel I had rented.
[–]from primak
convoluted brian has many errors in that blog piece. He did not allow me to proofread before he published it. He has also refused to correct anything since. He has my original emails to him. I actually contacted him back in 2007, but he was not interested. I had contacted him and asked him for help as to who I could go to to try and have the information investigated. He never helped, all he did was publish it incorrectly over 2 years later.
[–]from primak
here you go...
http://www.cytopathology.org/archiving-and-interlaboratory-slide-review/
Too many people make statements of "fact" on here that are actually not factual.
[–]from primak
As for what happened, I do not know. That's why I wanted the police to look into things. They had no interest. If nothing else, they should have been concerned about someone placing pornographic materials on the property. They were not. I was scared after learning about a murder not too far away.
[–]stateurname
Oh crap, ur making some great connections! Gotta go back and re read the German info. Btw any idea who owns the house? Am I remembering correctly that there was also an outbuildings on the property?
[–]skippymofo
And he lived also in Glenn's bar on his arrest report as you wrote u/onepieceofgumleft.
Hmmm, I think I will talk to Siggy on FB...
[–]primak
He wasn't even living at that bar when the murder happened. He wasn't there until January 2006 while out on bond and that's a place where the county put lots of people who were out but could not return to the home because of domestic violence charges. Don't know who you are buddy, but you never talked to me and I'm not even German.
This German man story may very well be a part of this case. Way back when finding out his name was Sigfried. He went by "Siggy".
I've always been curious about whether he wrote the Sikikey letter. The misspellings and the poor English led me that way.
We also know he had mental issues and was institutionalized at times. Did he also send the letter from Winnebago Mental Health Institute? Who knows. But I continue to think it is definitely a possibility.
As we know from media stories of horrific crimes, more times than not, the person committing the crime has a history of severe mental illness. When you have chemical imbalances in the brain, it can be very dangerous and people have committed unthinkable crimes. They either don't take their meds or their meds are being changed and it's such a delicate balance. Most psychiatrists will tell you that it's a hit and miss trying to find the right combination of meds to control behaviors. That's why they are put in an institution many times when doctors decide to wean meds off and begin new ones and they are at a huge risk of becoming dangerous to themselves and others.
Great post. Definitely could be a connection there.
[–]foghaze
Glenn's Bar and Grill is 3 blocks from A. Martinez home.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
And one block from the Wisconsin Aluminum Foundry.
[–]magilla39
That bar is right by the WAF where ST worked between 16th and 17th on Franklin, and it's where his coworkers told CASO Inv. WB that he was a strange, hothead, selling a .22LR rifle:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glen's+Bar+%26+Grill/@44.0931592,-87.6691417,237a,20y,181h,44.81t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd47388c453801b76!8m2!3d44.0916545!4d-87.6674166
The first building could be part of the foundry, as you can see in the link above. It purportedly had a smelter (sikikey).
Also, the old bar has been clearly razed at 14th and Franklin, as seen by satellite:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glen's+Bar+%26+Grill/@44.0920809,-87.6660834,194a,20y,181h,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd47388c453801b76!8m2!3d44.0916545!4d-87.6674166
[–]EWEkilledHarambe
I remember who the German is but is he also the person who attacked someone with a hatchet or something like that around that time? Things like this push more back towards fence sitter. Great post!
[–]bennybaku
No it was AM that attacked his girlfriend with a hatchet on the day they found the Rav4.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
Do we know the date of the call from the lady? If memory serves me right it was in the early stages of the investigation. If we go by what what talked about in the calls before and after her call we should be able to surmise about when her call came in. For example AC's call about CB came in on the day she died not days later, calls were coming in as things were happening. Do you happen to know if the call sounds like it came in before or AFTER her car was "found?"
[–]circuitclout
The next call on the tape is the tip about the green truck and guy with waders. How far is that location from the restaurant?
[-] magiclougie
Scott Tadych drove a green Ford Ranger.
Did Scott throw Teresa's set of keys in the West Twin River after luring her to Maribel? And when the framers decided to move the RAV4, did he put on waders and search for them in the river?
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
I'd guess less than a mile!
https://imgur.com/a/a7jT4
I think that call was before the car was found. Cops followed up 3 months later and the witness said the car he spotted was a different color than the Rav he saw on TV. It was green not blue.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
I've never really been able to figure out if the calls are in chronogical order (?). Maybe someone else has a better answer to the question ....
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
Well....if they released them and didn't alter them shouldn't/wouldn't they be in the order they came in? If not then they were altered. Recordings don't mix things up the order of things unless they are done so on purpose.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
That's what I've never understood. They were posted to YouTube over a year ago. Was it a FOIA request that got them released and then posted to the Internet (?). Or did someone just post them (?).
[–]MrDoradus
Hard to tell, it's a strange coincidence to say the least.
And is this by any chance the same restaurant where LE got into Blaine's face, or were there two Cedar Ridge restaurants around there? Could she have been reporting that? Not to mention that there is a report about Blaine meeting them there on the 5th in CASO (WB and KS), but during the trial the 15th is mentioned, so I'm not sure what was up with that. Where there two different interviews at the same restaurant?
Even I doubt it that she was reporting on any of the interviews seeming suspicious, just throwing out a potential additional connection to this restaurant.
[–]foghaze
Very nice call.. It was Blaine and it was 11/5/05.
I highly doubt there are 2 Cedar Ridge restaurants.
[–]MrDoradus
CASO, page 282
TYPE OF ACTIVITY: Supplemental Report
DATE OF ACTIVITY: 11/05/05
REPORTING OFFICER: Inv. Wendy Baldwin
On 11/05/05 at approximately 1700 hours, Special Agent Kim Skorlinski of DCI and I (Wendy Baldwin) made contact with Blaine Dassey at the CEDAR RIDGE RESTAURANT. Special Agent Skorlinksi had spoken to Barb Janda and she agreed to bring Blaine to the restaurant to ask him a few questions that had to be clarified. See Kim Skorlinksi's report for details on that interview.
From the full trial transcript (p. 2829/5507):
Q. Do you remember, Mr. Dassey, being interviewed by
23 the police, oh, I don't know, I guess the third
24 time, that November 15 interview; do you remember
25 that interview taking place in a restaurant?
A. Yes.
Q. The Cedar Ridge Restaurant?
A. Yes.
Q. Over in Maribel, near you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Was your mom there for that?
A. Yes.
Q. Just you and your mom?
A. Yup.
Q. And then a couple of officers or agents?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you guys sit across the table from the agents, in the restaurant?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did there come a time in that discussion between
16 you and your mom and the agents, when the agents
17 sort of got in your face a little bit?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What were they doing to get in your face?
20 A. They were arguing.
21 Q. They were arguing?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They raised their voices?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. They got angry?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They accused you guys of not accepting that Steve
3 was guilty, didn't they?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They accused you of embarrassing yourselves by
6 believing in your uncle, didn't they?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They tried to convince you that Steven Avery was
9 guilty, didn't they?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And they got loud about it, at the restaurant?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then they stomped off and left you there,
14 when you wouldn't turn on your uncle, didn't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that was back in November 15 of 2005.
18 A. Yes.
ETA: it seems these were in fact different interviews and that LE really didn't like the service there the second time around. /s
[–]foghaze
ETA: it seems these were in fact different interviews and that LE really didn't like the service there the second time around.
What do you mean by this statement? They didn't like the service?
Also are you saying there was more than one interview here? You say "different" interviews. I'm confused.
[–]MrDoradus
They didn't like the service because they stormed out, it was a joke.
And yeah, these were two different interviews both done at the same restaurant. One was with WB and KS on the 5th and the other on the 15th with law enforcement agents that ended up storming out on Bl. D and BJ. I have a feeling TF and MW were the ones that actually stormed out no the 15th, but would have to check TF's trial testimony to confirm.
And it's even said during the trial that this was the 3rd time Blaine was interviewed that month, so two different interviews with Blaine on two different dates at the same restaurant.
[–]foghaze
And it's even said during the trial that this was the 3rd time Blaine was interviewed that month, so two different interviews with Blaine on two different dates at the same restaurant.
And no transcription for it either. 11/15 was around the time they found out SC couldn't do a DNA match. They knew they needed someone to confess. Without a confession they didn't have much. Just a key, tiny bone frags (unidentified) and the RAV by 11/15. It would have been easy to persuade a jury these were planted. Plus the fact they didn't have a body. This is one reason why all the evidence kept popping up days and months later. They knew they needed more or Avery would walk free. Especially after Avery got S&B on the case. Strang is appointed Avery's lawyer on 3/24. Three days later they go for Brendan. It's not a coincidence. They lost control of the case when S&B were hired. They had everything to fear at this point.
[–]MMonroe54
they found out SC couldn't do a DNA match
With what or whom? Not doubting you, just not clear on what you mean.
[–]foghaze
With what or whom? Not doubting you, just not clear on what you mean.
That's what Pagel says in several reports in the Harold Times. From 11/15-11/17. I made a post on it last week. He said they couldn't get a DNA match so they were sending it to the FBI for more "advanced" testing. It's very strange indeed.
[–]MMonroe54
The bones, right? I understood that the reason they sent the bones to the FBI was because they could not get a DNA match. The FBI has more sophisticated equipment -- or better scientists, perhaps -- seemed to be the point.
[–]MMonroe54
Interesting that BJ sat in on the interview with Blaine but not Brendan's many "interviews." Very curious whether these agents were, indeed, W&F on the 15th.
[–]hollieluluboo
Why do they keep doing these things in public places? is that normal? I've been questioned by police twice as a witness but they've never requested that i meet them somewhere really public. They always asked if they can come to me. Unless BJ requested the public place -- but the report isn't worded that way.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
I'm fairly certain you're right ... Cedar Ridge was the name of the restaurant where LE stormed out because Barb and Blaine wouldn't agree that SA was guilty. I doubt there's two restaurants with the same name in the area, but I don't know for sure.
With the reputation that MCSO has in the area, I don't know if a citizen would call to report unprofessional conduct (raising their voices and storming out), but that's just my opinion and assumption. I think the lady was calling with a tip ... possibly a sighting of TH's vehicle.
[–]foghaze
Barb was also arrested on 11/5. I would like to know if it was before or after this Blaine interview? Something is fishy here.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
Not sure if her arrest was before or after (?).
Wondering though if LE chose Cedar Ridge so they could kill two birds with one stone.
1. Convince Barb and Blaine that Steven was guilty, and
2. While they were there, do damage control with BL (the owner who called dispatch), convincing her that whatever she saw, wasn't of any importance or related to the case.
[–]JacksnakeJames
Or maybe TH was a customer, and there was a receipt to show it, or video possibly? Maybe she met with someone there? It's a long shot, but it is possible. I also thought about the wild cherry pepsi can with the napkin around it. Have you ever been to one of those small town restaurants where they serve up cold cans with a napkin around them? I've been to a few that do this instead of fountain drinks. I believe the can in TH's Rav-4 might well have come from such a place.
[–]JacksnakeJames
Why do all the pictures of the Rav4 at the crime lab look like they were taken in the dark with a flash only? You'd think a crime lab would be lit to high heaven, like all other labs, so they can see what the hell they're doing! Government buildings are not that poorly lit, unless they have lights turned out over night to save money, but that's usually not the case either. WTF's up with that? I'd like to see the time and date stamps for these photos, and all the other ones, of course.
I missed this tip. What did the lady say or refer to?
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
This link will take you to her call. Unfortunately, she's transferred to CASO before giving the information (tip) that she has.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GrzJQq2EkO4&t=23m45s
[–]JacksnakeJames
Wouldn't the call be available through CASO? The only reason I can think of right now, as to why it wouldn't be available, is if it were relevant to ongoing case/s. Is CASO refusing to release it, and if so, what's the reason? If it's benign, then no harm in releasing it.
[–]cardiacarrest1965
I've been calling this area/intersection the epicenter of all the strange events happening in Manitowoc County.
I too would love to hear what BL reported to CASO.
The gas station clerks would be a good source of information too as you get to know your regulars and the just passing thrus.
In fact, when investigating the Greaves case, it was this very One-Stop gas station that A. Greaves went to and purchased items after he had been stabbed and just prior to his running off the road past Cooperstown. The news did in fact interview one of the clerks there. I used to work at a Gas/Convenience center on I-94 and just the things I witnessed there lol.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
That area has some very strange things in its past, and rumours that strange (and suspicious) things still go on. And this case seems to have a number of links to the area. You and I have exchanged thoughts on it recently.
[–]anditurnedaround
Speculating: The lady may have seen something, but given the woman that complained about her husband moved into that rental the day TH died, maybe she told the owner something that the owner wanted to share with police.
The police did end up going to her (the wife's) residence to take a report.
I have not seen the report, but if it is true the officer lied about already recovering TH's clothes, it is suspicious.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
That's not a bad theory. Maybe the wife mentioned parts of her story to BL (the restaurant owner). It does seem plausible.
[–]foghaze
I have not seen the report, but if it is true the officer lied about already recovering TH's clothes, it is suspicious.
Not only that but LE were telling the press they found clothing in a barrel. I found it in the Harold Times. They question Jodi later and she says she burned clothes in the barrel.
[–]Bloody-User-Name
Is this by any chance the very same restaurant he and his wife were walking into, saw the flyer posted and he said TH was dead?
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
I haven't seen any info on where he saw the poster, but the restaurant would be a possibility.
[–]Mr_Slippery1
I have listen to those recordings back months ago, if I recall they do not list the date and time of the call do they?
edit : without knowing when the call came in it is hard to guess the implications.
No question it could be more important if prior to the 5th.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
Frustrating, because no, the dates and times aren't indicated. But I've always maintained that they're all vital to the case and all contain important clues ... even if the clues aren't readily identifiable in some of them.
[–]Mr_Slippery1
Absolutely, if the call was prior to the 5th as your post indicates it was likely a lead of some kind, or seeing something suspicion.
If it was after the 5th it could have just been the heated conversation with Blaine and Barb.
[–]cardiacarrest1965
It has been frustrating not knowing the exact date and times of these calls, videos and photos. LE discounted so many things simply because they had their suspect.
[–]czj113
Sounds like the bar owner could be friends or relatives of law enforcement if they chose to do two interviews / interrogations there. Wonder if this "tip" was actually planted misdirection.
[–]Redditidiot1
It seems unlikely during that stage of everything. Why have some one call for misdirection when so much other planned distractions were happening? Kind of like at this point in the game, today, misdirection is more likely to occur here on Reddit, if not a month after the fact. On the other hand, more probability that a call like that would be truthful, but may be an honest misperception by an observer. Actually it seems like one of the small kernels of truth that should continue to be addressed.
[–]_idunnowhy_
That's very close to ASY. Knowing where the Germans rental house was makes his story much more intriguing.
Maybe her turnaround on social media forums was a sudden realization that she could get caught up in it if someone looked too closely at the story? Just thinking out loud.
[–]onepieceofgumleft[S]
It is quite close to the ASY, and SA said TH turned and headed that way. And you're right, she has changed her tune, and I thought the same thing you did.
Her original story pointed suspicion at her husband. She didn't really recant her story, but she back-tracked on some issues saying that some of the things she said were taken out of context or misquoted, and the evidence she found could have been left by previous tenants.
Then she indicated that other people in the area had strange things happen as well, and implied there might be a stalker in the area.
It's a bit strange and confusing, but more compelling IMO than some think due to so many ties to Maribel in this case.
Technically, they didn't take possession of the rental until Nov 1st, 2005, and TH disappeared the day before.
If it wasn't her husband, did someone else take advantage of the last day that property was vacant to lure TH there to take pictures (of the property itself , or a vehicle to put in Auto Trader?).
[–]cardiacarrest1965
She certainly has changed up the story and downplayed some of the details on social media over the years. I agree that the pressure of getting stuck in the middle would be a good reason to do so. I always tend to stick with details in the beginning of an investigation as those are the freshest being reported. Not to say they may be accurate, but often details morph into something completely different.
I've been thinking about the theory that someone uses the area (or that house) as a home base and either has a link to it through family or acquaintance. Someone who could be on or near the property and not be seen as out of place. When Mrs. German states that strange things would happen around the holidays, this made me think of this. Someone who may not live in the area now but visits family or friends around the holidays. Still working on it...my investigation continues.
[–]JacksnakeJames
Didn't they convict SA and BD for the crimes happening on the 31st, and didn't that information come from a coerced confession where BD just kept guessing at what they wanted to hear (except the information they fed him, of course)? So, without the confession, both separate narratives of what happened, and when it happened, are pure speculation, and come nowhere close to beyond a reasonable doubt. This alone should warrant, at a minimum, new trials (not that it would, but having KZ on the case isn't hurting).
[–]JLWhitaker
/u/SkippTopp is the CASO dispatch records part of what was denied under open records request or could they be asked for separately?
[–]TheEntity1
And if you look at this map, you'll see how suspiciously close TH would have been to the restaurant and that house if she had turned left out of Avery's:
http://imgur.com/a/s9DQG
[–]seasonturnturn
Hadn't listened to that dispatch audio for awhile. Quite interesting to listen to the whole 40 minutes again. Wish it had times and dates. Argh!! This link starts near the end re: OP's post and Cedar Ridge. But good to relisten from the beginning.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GrzJQq2EkO4&t=23m45s
I think I've found the German man
By EmilyLouiseChurch1, MakingAMurderer
December 19, 2016
[–][deleted]
Feel strongly enough about this to emerge from “lurkerdom” to summarize some research I’ve done to fit some pieces together from other places in r/makingamurderer and frame some questions. This is my first post so I’m keeping all references as general as possible -- reddiquette! I have separate citations if they're not provided below:
To start, we know there are two individuals mentioned in http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html who have criminal records in https://wcca.wicourts.gov corroborating Brian’s story. The obvious problem is, Brian could have fabricated this story using the publicly available information to create a narrative to support his advocacy for SA. I'm certainly not saying he did, but he could have, and either way his story would need corroboration, so I wanted to try to independently substantiate some of his claims, and so I combed through information on r/makingamurder and other sites, honing in on the thread from a dog breeding website mentioned in r/makingamurder. The thread on the dog breeding site concerns the woman listed in the original criminal complaint from Brian’s story (corroborated by wcca.wicourts.gov). Turns out the woman has warrants out for her arrest in WI for abusing dogs. Another character claiming to be her husband chimes in to this thread as well though he does not provide much relevant information beyond advocacy for his wife.
At one point in the thread, the administrator of the site claims to have received an email from a gmail address linked to a user name mentioned elsewhere in this thread (sorry for being cryptic but I'm trying to err on the side of privacy). The same user name was also used to make a post on avclub. A Redditor posted a response they received from the owner of both the dog thread and avclub username in this thread substantiating the story contained in Brian's site. If the user name indeed belongs to the person mentioned in the original criminal complaints, and it appears that it does, Brian's theory is independently corroborated by one of the individuals mentioned in his story.
More interesting facts that substantiate the theory with interesting implications:
1. Teresa would have driven by the Maribel property from Brian’s story:
“One of five children, Teresa grew up near the village of St. John in Calumet County, one county west of Manitowoc, where her parents ran a dairy farm. She had recently moved back home from Green Bay so she could start saving up for one of her dreams: opening her own studio. Griesbach, Michael (2014-07-03). The Innocent Killer: A True Story of a Wrongful Conviction and its Astonishing Aftermath (Kindle Locations 2838-2840). American Bar Association. Kindle Edition.”
Directions from SA’s to St. John’s run by the “Maribel property” in Brian’s story (no specific addresses other than Avery’s Auto Salvage):
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Avery's+Auto+Salvage,+12930+Avery+Rd,+Two+Rivers,+WI+54241/St+John,+WI/@44.2764399,-87.7917145,542m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x88032f8641fb3e73:0xb85fa553298bb0bf!2m2!1d-87.692513!2d44.253025!1m5!1m1!1s0x8803a72633bd68e7:0x1bf9e76f0e9dead!2m2!1d-88.2035057!2d44.1686252
2. According to property data, the “Maribel property” is owned by a person living at another address suggesting that it is now -- and may have been in the past -- a rental property, as claimed in Brian’s story. If Teresa was photographing AutoTrader ads, she may have done private rental listings?
(source redacted on this one)
These three pieces of information have important implications. They provide possible explanations for why Teresa would have been on, or at least near, the Maribel property. She could have been driving by to go home, then found some reason to stop by, perhaps to meet an apparent new tenant at a property she had photographed to lease, or maybe the Maribel individual flagged her down. If (again this is all conjecture) Teresa was indeed killed at the Maribel address, the Maribel individual certainly would have heard about SA, providing a convenient scape goat for the crime and relative proximity to SA’s property.
Simple questions to move this forward:
Is Brian making this whole thing up?
Did Teresa photograph rental properties?
Who owned the property in 2005 and how did they advertise their property?
What did the police know about these individuals and what evidence was produced by their activities on 10/31/2005 - 11/5/2005?
I'm not a detective, but I play one on the internet and while most of this is wild conjecture, it seems like it is worth looking after.
[–][deleted]
I disagree about the implications if Brian got the story in 2009 from the same person who showed up 3 years later in the dog forums.
If the same person provided the same information twice, once to a blogger in Wisconsin in 2009, and again to a reddit user asking six years later in 2015, and their story is consistent and substantiated by court documents, I find their story compelling.
Moreover, their identity seems to be supported by not only the lengthy discussion in the dog breeders thread, but also by the original 2005 criminal complaint on https://wcca.wicourts.gov joining to their warrant for animal cruelty in 2013, and it looks like this person is the German man's wife!
[–]andromache97
But the blogger (assuming you're talking about convolutedbrian) also obviously spent ages compiling info about the Avery case. Seems like a little more than just fabricating a story because they were pissed at the German couple. Also strange is that both convolutedbrian and Prima K. point to the husband as a perpetrator and the wife as a victim, when the wife is clearly the villain of the dog saga.
It's not straightforward at all.
Edit: Also want to add that convolutedbrian's story pre-dates the dog stuff online by about 3 years. Though granted, the German "info" came from Prima K a few days ago.
[–]primak
It's not a fake story and all the info was given to Manitowoc county sheriff, attorneys, etc. and nobody ever questioned him.
[–]AmpLee
So here's what I can say of the German man based off his 3 Facebook pages. On one page, he displays quite a bit of anger towards someone, continually berating her/him in a sexual tone. Hard to understand what he's saying due to his broken English. On another, his friends list of 250 or so consists of mainly very young Thai girls and boys (some clearly underage). I hate to venture a guess why some middle aged man would have so many young foreign 'friends'. These things obviously do not make him a murderer, but they also don't make him look like a boyscout.
[–]EmilyLouiseChurch1[S]
It looks like he lives in Thailand and has a Thai partner.
[–]primak
That is his current Thai wife he was ranting about, Sanee Wanaknan.
[–]jpozzed
what is the Prima K connection?
[–]andromache97
In the comment section on an avclub article about Making a Murderer. There was a user named Prima K posting a series of comments about a German man and a story very similar to convolutedbrian's.
How are they connected??? This dog forum is weird as fuck.
[–]AmpLee
Looks to me like Prima K is the wife posing as a character witness for herself. Reading through that thread you can see posts of her emails she sent to some of the users while having the Prima k email addy. If this is the case, why would she accuse her husband? She seems like a pathological liar, so I'd take anything she says with a grain of salt.
[–][deleted]
Prima K had a few posts on a different site, ranting about the case and the german guy. the posts dated back to a month or two, they were deleted yesterday morning (12/20/2016)
Edit: https://disqus.com/by/prima_k/
[–]jpozzed
does that link still work for you? It shows deleted for me so you may want to take a screen grab if it still in your cache.
[–]AmpLee
As was intimated to me, it sounds like Teresa may have stopped at the rental property (where the German man lived) noticing that there was a "for rent" sign. Being a freelance photographer, she may have seen an opportunity to take a picture of the rental and then contact the owner to see if they wanted to buy it. Or maybe it was just the German guy there and he pretended to be the owner interested in having her take a picture of his rental.
[–][deleted]
Another poster in this thread heard back from "the citizen" in Brian's blog story and shared with me. They invited her to share her story in the thread so I won't post without her permission, but it's a super weird story if it's true. I'm gonna write something up without specifics and post as a separate thread in r/makingamuderer.
[–]toybrandon
01-24-2006 Complaint filed
RE: Eva Berg, on 01-19-06.
Manitowoc County Case Number 2006CF000026 State of Wisconsin vs. Siegfried BERG
The defendant Siegfried BERG was found guilty of the following charge(s) in this case. One or more other charges in this case were dismissed. The dismissed charges were not proven and have no legal effect. Siegfried BERG is presumed innocent of the dismissed charges.
Siegfried BERG was found guilty of Resist Officer, a class A misdemeanor, Wisconsin Statutes 946.41(1).
Charge(s) in this case were read in to this or other case(s). A "read in" charge is a charge that is dismissed as part of a plea agreement, however:
The defendant agrees to have the court consider the charge(s) when sentencing for another crime, under Wis. Stats. 973.20(1g)(b); and
The defendant cannot be prosecuted for these charge(s) in the future.
More details if you drill down here:
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/courtRecordEvents.do;jsessionid=2C7E0AFC30B1FB04ECE50B7CF2B074B6.render6?caseNo=2006CF000026&countyNo=36&cacheId=3D7945A7C5CD17B33DF14A0FABE935C6&recordCount=4&offset=0&linkOnlyToForm=false&sortDirection=DESC
[–]trapjaw9920
This has GOT to be the same person. Lists the address in Maribel. Maribel is a TINY, TINY place. It's not something where it may be confused for a different incident in Maribel, because Maribel pretty much rarely has ANY incidents.
[–]Wire_Chaser
According to the article written by Brian Mcorckle, it was (German mans) wife that found panties that weren't hers with "menstrual" stains, a lighter fluid bottle with bloody fingerprint, and her dogs messing with fresh bones. She found all these at her place, look at the address on the court document posted above at the bottom. (German man) should have no access to (his wife's) address, plug that address in and see for yourself. Everything is matching up with Brian's theory and the suspected location of the crime is right down the road from Steven Avery's house.
[–]primak
he showed up in Oregon a couple of months after his release from Manitowoc county jail via Greyhound bus and continued his abuse there. He further followed to PA stalking and continued his abuse for about 2 weeks until he was picked up and sent to immigration detainment. There had been an immigration detainment order for him in WI but for some reason, Manitowoc county did not enforce it and let him go free.
[–]AmpLee
Interesting to note that an interpreter was necessary. Wonder if Steven might remember any encounters with a German guy who spoke little to no English. I would also love to find out what the filmmakers know of this alternative theory. They lived in that town for two years. Surely, they must know of any theory that exists.
[–]andromache97
Not going to link here, but I googled the wife's name and found a German Shepherd forum full of people accusing her of scamming them and mistreating dogs. Based on what these people were posting, this person had ties to Wisconsin. Not sure what to make of it, but just putting it out there.
OMG I kept reading AND the one poster on there defending this person posted their email address and it had Prima K. in it!
AND NOW there's a poster sometimes using German and claiming that she is his wife! This forum is a wild ride.
[–][deleted]
i googled his & his lady's name & oregon and found an article about a guy attacking his dog. what is it with them and dogs?
[–]chaoskitty
Not only that, but German guy's wife was charged with animal cruelty in WI by ADA Fassbender in 2013. So odd to see the same names pop up but it IS a small place.
[–]chaoskitty
Found the same sort of thing. And in the small claims case I linked above, it shows that German guy moved to PA between October and Dec of 2005...
[–]suesmith666
because of COURSE he lives in PA
[–]primak
He lives in Germany, you are nuts.
[–]primak
he didn't move to PA in October or December of 2005 where are you getting this BS?
[–]primak
those people on the forums do not know her and never met her, they were friends of Alpine K9 who sold her a sick puppy in 2010 and she complained to the Better Business Bureau and Alpine K9 had his buddies write all of that to discredit her
[–]bananabread456
Interesting to note that the prosecutor in that case is also the author of the BOOK about the Avery case...
http://www.amazon.com/Innocent-Killer-Conviction-Astonishing-Aftermath/dp/1627223630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450723142&sr=8-1&keywords=innocent+killer
[–]AmpLee
Well, I emailed Prima K (possibly the German guy's wife) and urged the person to step forward if they have evidence that proves a different killer.
I'm removing the correspondence because I think this is her story to tell. She seems genuinely fearful of her life.
I heard back from her. Pretty much the same story she told online. Is there a private forum I can post this correspondence.
[-] Superfarmer
Sounds like the man in the story was paranoid schizophrenic.
Paranoid schizophrenics often attach themselves to conspiratorial or scary stories that happen to be in the news at the time of their break.
Obviously it would be interesting to see where this leads, but keep this in mind.
[–]EmilyLouiseChurch1[S]
Whole heartedly agree. I think this is probably a dead end, seems like a couple having a domestic dispute and throwing around wild and dangerous allegations.
[–]primak
He's not paranoid schizophrenic, he's a sociopath and was diagnosed with personality disorders in Germany after setting himself on fire in 1998 in Germany, but nobody wanted to be bothered with looking into it.
[–]Wire_Chaser
Even though all this information is substantial and shocking. The only thing that will blow this case wide open is 1: the German man giving a confession or 2: matching his fingerprints (that are most definitely in the system) with fingerprints found in and on Teresa's RAV4
[–]deleteme123
fingerprints found in and on Teresa's RAV4
One would think that the prosecutor would have had the entire vehicle scanned for fingerprints. Wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the case.
[–]primak
There were fingerprints on her vehicle that were never run and the ones that were were only run in WI, not nationwide or worldwide and there is a full DNA profile of an unknown male found as a blood stain from the quarry again never matched to anyone and there were 4 spots of male blood found in her car again never matched to anyone and trace male DNA unable to develop a full profile on both license plates.
[-] EmilyLouiseChurch1 [S]
I've come across some Facebook posts and a lot of them relate to the dog scandals but there is an interesting comment from the potential husband on one:
"This is me ex wife she kick me aut usa she is verry crassy she take my live"
Don't know what to think now. I'm not going to link to a Facebook account but it's quite easy to find. This is looking more and more like a fabricated story to me.
[–]primak
He was deported twice from the United States for criminal charges as well as the fact he refused to release his medical records from Germany to the immigration authorities.
[–]chaoskitty
German guy and wife were in small claims court in 10/2005.
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetails.do;jsessionid=2C7E0AFC30B1FB04ECE50B7CF2B074B6.render6?caseNo=2005SC000839&countyNo=58&cacheId=F0E9A8B79443E899923E323611449A58&recordCount=6&offset=4#party_3
Again, Patrick Willis. In Manitowoc.
[-] locale
It is a bit strange how the court docs from the German man cite his offense date was 11/06/05 and then was released on 3/02/06. Funny coincidence given his charges? The docs also state who defended him in his different hearings. I wonder if those attorneys would be able to share/remember any information, aside from client/attorney privilege, about his case that would help corroborate the wife's story.
[–]primak
His records were and are in Germany. Nobody looked into it. When they were told about his history, they ignored it, didn't want to be bothered.
[–]greensherry
Has anyone given this to his new attorney? She may be more interested in it.
[–]primak
There is nothing connecting him to this crime and he is about ready to file a defamation lawsuit. That blog has errors in it and was also written without proofreading and at a time when really no evidence was known about this case.
[–]primak
Dassey's attorney checked into this blog story 5 years ago. There are so many mistakes in this blog, it is ridiculous.
You can accuse the German of being an abusive husband. But then you must accuse every abusive husband around of murdering a stranger. How far would you like to go? The whole state? The whole country? This is the reason for the Denny rule.
The Averys knew that rental house and their friends had rented it before and after. The German never even lived in the house, but was in jail before even moving in. Someone was planting pornographic materials on the property. He was in jail and could not have done it. The property was vacant at the time of this woman's disappearance and murder. The land surrounding the house was leased out to various people who farmed it.
[–][deleted]
I've seen mental illness around me throughout my life and family members have been nothing but worried sick. Anecdotal sure but I mean he's her husband and she has no clue where he is and just continues on like its normal? I guess it's possible; people do carry on highly dysfunctional relationships for a lifetime.
I don't know who murdered TH but I think there's a lot more going on beneath the surface between the Averys and the Dasseys. I think there are rivalries and hatred that we aren't seeing between the Avery's brothers along with jealousy and resentment over the family business and the implications of Steven coming back upon his original release.
When he went away the first time it effectively cut him out of the inheritance and split the salvage yard in half between his brothers Chuck and Earl. Upon his release it got split three ways again.
I also think that Steven was Allen Avery's favorite son, and that was a source of resentment for the two brothers. I have a feeling there was a prevailing "Steven can do no wrong attitude" in the family and that others resented him for it.
In the world of rural Wisconsin where people are poor and life is a struggle the Avery salvage yard was a kingdom. I mean that. It was a business that was worth something and almost certainly the only way out of total poverty for whomever controlled it. The rest would be left to feed off the king.
Steven Avery wasn't first in line but he was the favorite, and since this isn't a real monarchy I think that when he came back from prison Chuck and Earl were very upset. Since there was no clear indicator of succession of control of the Avery salvage yard I'll bet they'd just agreed to split it between themselves once their father died. Steven coming back messed that plan all up. With him back, and being the favorite I believe that Chuck for certain wanted Steven out of the way. I won't speculate about Earl because I'm only going off what I know. I don't have any evidence its just where I'm at after all the info I've taken in.
[–]EmilyLouiseChurch1[S]
I just want to make clear I am not accusing anybody of anything, I'm just trying to find details that are recorded in real life to match to this (quite dramatic and scary) blog post that for all we know could be a complete fabrication. The people named here are innocent. No claims should be made against them.
EDIT: I also don't want to get embroiled in any kind of defamation so I'm retracting their names from my posts. You can still find the names through the links.
[–]primak
well be careful what you delve into because after requesting records from Manitowoc county sheriff false allegations of animal neglect were made and old message board posts made about the complaint against Alpine K9 and one sick puppy were used to bolster the false animal neglect charges.... Manitowoc doesn't like people digging around in records
[–]bande2
So has anyone at least linked Dean Strang to this story? I would at least think it is worth looking into.
[–]primak
Dean Strang doesn't care, neither did Laura Nirider, nor Buting, neither did Avery's state public defenders, nobody cared to look into it.
[–]primak
I have tried for over 10 years. Nobody believes it. Not the attorneys involved, not the FBI, not the WI dept. of justice, not even the Avery family. My story has been on the convolutedbrian website since 2009. I told it to him in 2007. I went to officials in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and now. Not one will even consider it or investigate it. I'm sorry, there is nothing more I can do.
You all don't have to keep attacking the ex wife. It was reported and hoped someone would have looked into his history and question him but nobody ever did. Then there was the false allegations of animal neglect packaged together with the anonymous message board posts to make the scenario lose credibility. So, if he did it, he got away with it.
[–]primak
Nobody knew him other than me or the police and nobody would have known his nickname [Siggy].
I know that because he had only been back in the USA for a few months, had never been to WI before in his life, had been in WI for only 5 months as of 10/31/05 and had not yet ever lived in Manitowoc county. He had no job or any way to meet people. He did not drink and did not go to bars. He had no friends there. He could barely speak English.
So your theory is he would drive to a house we were going to move to, where he had never been before in his life, and suddenly meet up with someone he didn't know and commit a murder with that person, and that second killer would trust a stranger from another country to commit a murder with him?
Or a stranger would give him access to an aluminum smelter somewhere, somehow?
If he had seen anything like a murder taking place, he would have told police or called me to call police. He has no criminal history in Germany. He only had a suicide attempt and in Germany suicide is not a crime. He is abusive and controlling in relationships with women, or at least he was. It appears he still is with his current wife from some of the facebook posts. But he was never known to harm total strangers or random people.
Some women obviously are not bothered by a controlling partner or they like it because they like the man to be jealous it appears. He was dangerous to others because of the method of suicide and the location he attempted suicide in Germany via igniting himself on fire.
And most importantly, when I went to police back then, I was not saying he did anything. I wanted to know what was going on. There was obviously someone else lurking around that property. The blog story has errors and some things are twisted to point it all to him. Those pepsi cans is one example. I saw them near the house entrance with a boom box. How that stuff got there or who put it there, I did not see. I threw them away. It was only much later I read or heard that murder victim had a pepsi can in the vehicle. Those items did not belong to me and were not there when we initially looked at the house.
It is noteworthy also that the previous tenant's son has a criminal history, and the woman who rented it afterwards (I only rented it for 3 months) was at some point involved with Chuck Avery and is friends with many of the Avery and Dassey families. Someone also indicated that the previous tenant was a boyfriend of Karla Avery.
Steven Avery's daughter also had relationships with men with criminal histories including one who committed arson. It does not say what he burned, but it must have been her property because he was supposed to pay her restitution.
What I am saying is there are several or even many men around that area who could be possibly involved in a crime of violence.
[–]primak
You people will try to connect apples to oranges. He is also fully aware of what people are writing online and he said he hopes they will have as much fun when he sues them for defamation. To place someone photos on the internet and refer to them as "the murder suspect" when no law enforcement official has ever charged them or even interviewed them regarding this crime is pure defamation of character and is libelous.
[-] SA1L
Um, didn't those allegations begin with you, /u/primak ??
I saved some of your posts wherein you indicated that you found yellow panties, and that your dogs were bringing bones from the yard, and that he was often burning things. You said that you brought those items to the police and nothing cane of it.
If anyone should be concerned about libel..
[–]primak
It is not libel to be suspicious of something, I think you do not know the legal definition. I have never placed photos of him with his name calling him a murder suspect anywhere at any time.
I only contacted the sheriff after finding the second porno magazine in the barn doorway, which happened to be opened to a specific page with a woman that had MY middle name, with the same spelling and it was very scary because I had no idea who was doing this.
Yellow panties could be he found them somewhere, or someone else could have put them there, they could have been from the washing machine since that was also a rental in Bonduel with a washer and dryer. I do not know where they came from.
Bones could mean some animal died, someone was hunting and cleaning an animal, someone had a BBQ, again I do not know what kind of bones they were or where they came from.
He said he burned some junk or debris that was on the property. But the previous tenants also had burn barrels and burn pits that had burned items in them.
I think if you lived alone and someone was placing pornographic magazines in a doorway and the second one had your name specifically opened to that page, then you too may begin to see bones and so forth in a different light after hearing a murder had taken place nearby.
Nothing is impossible, but again, you are taking occurrences from over 10 years ago and found on a blog that should have just been deleted after finding there was no relevance to this case, but was not and trying to connect them to it today.
Laura Nirider already had this info years ago, this is not news. So people dig this out and start all kinds of rumors and contact me and had reporters calling me and this investigator calling me and yes, I found those things. Did it seem strange at the time, yes, it did. I don't know where the things came from but after actually learning the facts of the murder case, it does not implicate my ex husband. Was there anyone else on the property, it appears there was. There were the guys who worked all the farmland around it, and one did introduce himself at the time, but I no longer remember his name.
I did not know anyone there and there was no reason for anyone to be placing porno magazines there specifically where I would see them and open to a page with my name on it.
Sometimes things may look a certain way they are not. After going to police and later finding out the woman had been shot in the head, I never thought it had anything to do with my ex and the problem even back then was I could not connect him in any way with that woman, he simply didn't know her. At the time I went to police, I had no idea who Avery was, who the victim was, nothing. All I knew was that a person I worked with told me I did not live too far away from where a female photographer had been murdered.
I still remember the names of the magazines. They were magazines I had never seen or heard of before. They were really what you would call hardcore pornography. i had never seen my ex with those particular magazines, the only thing I had ever seen was Playboy in Germany when I first met him. Also the editions were from 2000 and 2001 but looked in good condition. He was not even in the USA at that time.
People tried to convince me that somehow Manitowoc county must have secretly let him out of jail and given him those magazines to put there, but that is only someone's conspiracy theory and would mean that all police and the jail were in on the conspiracy. The deputy who came to my house called the jail while she was there and confirmed that he was there.
My problem with the sheriff's dept. was that they did not seem concerned about who was lurking around that house. My concern was if Avery and my husband are both in jail, then who is this. This is what I was asking and what I was asking Brian. Brian insisted the magazines were completely unrelated to any killer. I think differently, or so I did and I still wonder who did it. It is surely not a normal occurrence in my life and never happened to me before or after.
Maybe that happens often enough in that area for them to not have any concern. Even the first magazine, I thought not too much of it, strange, but I thought maybe kids did it. It was the second magazine that scared me because of the woman in the layout having my name and it was opened to that page, lying there. Also the dates, holidays and specifically christmas and new year's. Why on those days? I don't know. I wanted the sheriff dept. to look around, but they were not interested. I found that scary because a woman had recently been murdered and they claimed later also raped. I thought maybe they could have gotten prints or DNA from the magazines, but I never heard anything.
[-] skatoulaki
Um, if you never came here with your story, nobody would even know who "the German man" is. I only discovered his name from a previous post of yours...
[-] BugDog1
Yep! Exactly.
[–]primak
Well it was pretty obvious after someone on reddit somehow got my email and phone number (which is not even listed anywhere that I know of) that they already had the police report with the names on it, so the cat was already out of the bag. I have never mentioned his last name here, but people on here already knew it.
[-] skatoulaki
That's kind of irrelevant. You're blaming people for repeating the story, threatening them with defamation and libel accusations for talking about him, when you're the one who came here telling the stories in the first place. Yes, you've deleted a bunch of posts, but you do realize they still exist, right? This is Reddit, not Vegas.
[–]primak
I was trying to point out the errors in the blog and how it came about when it was at a time with no real known facts about this case, a lot of good that did, people simply added more.
[–]Feedthemcake
Weren't you the one who brought him into this??
[–]primak
No someone found that blog post on convoluted brian. I have asked him to remove that but he refuses. That was a long time ago and it not even relevant to anything other than someone at that time was lurking around that property and placing pornographic magazines in the barn doorway.
[-]before
And stop acting as if at the time my husband knew nothing about this. I even asked him about these things myself and told him I went to the sheriff.
The way he was, he would have been capable of seriously hurting a woman, but not a complete stranger. How is he now? I do not know, have not seen him for many years. The whole problem is I didn't see him doing anything. I did not see him put the underwear in the cupboard, did not see him burn anything, etc. he said he was driving around, but I was not there, do not know where he was driving or what he was doing other than what he told me. So the bottom line was I found some things, don't know how they got there and all I had was his narrative telling me where he was and what he was doing. Yes, from all of those you could imagine a scenario, but proving it is something different. That would be a job for police or someone else in that capacity. And for all the things one can imagine match, too much does not match. He had no guns, he didn't know the woman, there is no documentation of what time he was in the area, no proof that he put any bones or underwear or pepsi cans there, no proof of who the woman was he claimed stopped there or even when. I don't even know if he was telling me the truth about where he was, etc. It's really all just hearsay.
And here's my view on it now. Cops can get a search warrant in a minute. If anything I had given to them had been connected to my husband, they would have combed the place for any other evidence and if they were framing Avery they could have told me they found nothing. I do not believe they would have taken the chance of leaving anything there for someone else to find, such as the next tenant, the owner, the farmers, the realtor, etc. etc.
[-] ksdouglas
your posts are starting to look like the rest of this case, a bunch of b.s. 1. first he was at the Maribel house oct 31-nov.6, then only 5-6, then he never lived there at all? 2. blog entry says he claims TH was stupid, and after seeing missing poster, "she's dead." now you say he said "shes nice." 3. how did he come into contact with TH? first you say it was her car for sale as he knew of her blue/green SUV, was he looking for a used car at the time? then it was because there was a for rent sign at the Maribel house? why would there be a for rent sign up if you had already leased it? you leased it for 3 months? 4. you say he was in jail for Christmas and new years, blog entry states on at least one occasion he was released without your knowledge? could this not have happened on that occasion? 5. how did he get to the B.P. at 147 and 43 when he was "looking into," the Maribel house? someone just dropped him off? please help me understand.
[-] BugDog1
Exactly and whilst she's on here playing it down she's busy private messaging other people still trying to implicate him.
He was never at Maribel and well she knows it.
[-] ksdouglas
wasn't he arrested at the maribel house? or you mean on 10/31?
[-] BugDog1
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetails.do;jsessionid=B04235E4033B44933A7A15766A4AC41C.render6?caseNo=2005CM000810&countyNo=36&cacheId=0D9FFEA6720701D170FD048D2F4857E7&recordCount=4&offset=3&mode=details&submit=View+Case+Details
[-] ksdouglas
isn't this the glens bar address?
[–]primak
He never actually lived in the Maribel house. He was living in Bonduel and I was not moving to the house in Maribel until Nov. 4. He had started moving things to the house on Nov. 4. He said he was there driving around and said he burned junk there some time before Nov. 4. He did not have a key for the house until Nov. 4. I do not have a way to know the times he was at the house, only what he told me.
He mentioned some woman stopped and I was not really paying attention at the time, but he said something about are all people here so friendly. He said the police and courts in America are stupid, not the woman.
He saw the missing poster when we went to the restaurant across from the house on Saturday. I blamed it on his English, but he watched news and I did not ever watch news, so a plausible explanation could have been he may have already known they found the car that morning, I don't know. I asked the cashier where that was that she went missing if it was around there and she said yes. I didn't know the area at all.
I never said it was her car. He said someone had an suv of that color which I later learned sounded the same color as hers. Where he saw this for sale I cannot say. He said he saw it parked for sale. I had just bought a car, had wanted a Jeep, but could not get financed for one.
The for rent sign was placed by the realtor and he had not taken it down.
Yes, it was a month to month lease.
He was released without them notifying me as they were supposed to but it was on Jan. 11, 2006. All in the court record.
I don't know how he got there. Someone at that boarding house where he was staying perhaps or hitchhiking. I did not see how he got there or how he left.
[–][deleted]
She found that on 31 October, 2005, he visited the Maribel area and had stopped at the rental before the lease began. He spoke of visiting an auto salvage yard. He commented that a woman wanted to take pictures of the rental property on 31 October while he was there, and he felt that the photographer was “stupid.”
[–]primak
He didn't meet her at any salvage yard and stop making shit up. He told the wife he drove around the area and saw there was a salvage yard nearby.
The German didn't say he visited the salvage yard, he said there was one nearby and he said he knew that from driving around the area all the way to the shore of Lake Michigan while I was at work.
He didn't say the photographer was stupid, he said a woman stopped at the house while he was there and she was friendly.
The whole point is, we don't know WHO he saw! Was it her? I have NO effin' idea. Was is a neighbor being nosy about who was moving in? Was is a salesperson? I don't know and neither do you. He never said photographer, that's the problem here. That is incorrect. He said a woman stopped and he could not understand what she wanted exactly.
Oh and that thread about the CD player said she did NOT have one in the car.
Oh and that thread about the CD player said she did NOT have one in the car.
The information was given to convoluted brian in April 2007. He sat on it. He wouldn't help get it to the right people who could have investigated. There are many errors in that blog and he refuses to correct them.
I don't have any mental health issues and I don't know you, do you know me? But Siegfried had 3 different personality disorders and had set himself on fire in Bremen, Germany in 1998 after a fight with a girlfriend and he did it at the girlfriend's apartment with children present.
[–]primak
I doubt that Avery or my ex husband killed her. I think it was whoever was putting those porno magazines in the barn doorway and I think I was to be the next victim. Both Avery and my ex were in jail when they were placed there.
I've been looking at that Dave Begotka guy because he had a custom motorcycle parts business and Halbach had an Ebay account I found back in 2006 and all she sold was motorcycle parts. Begotka is friends with Tadych also. Begotka was living in the area at the time, but moved to Texas after the trials. He was on a message board calling Avery guilty in 2009 and now acting like he's not guilty. Seems like his story of seeing Avery at a gas station in 2005 serves two purposes, to incriminate Avery and to create an alibi for himself by saying his wife was with him.
It still bothers me who was putting those magazines in that barn doorway that looked straight into the house. My dogs ran in those barns every day, and the magazines were placed one on christmas and one on new year's. Also on christmas, while I was looking around in the area where the magazine was, my 2 German Shepherds disappeared within about 2 minutes. One was under a year old and had just recovered from a broken leg (happened while I was at work, Siegfried said something fell on her but I think he kicked her) and the other was 8 years old with arthritis. They couldn't run that fast. So I looked all over and got in the car driving around looking and nothing. When it started to get dark, I called the sheriff and was told the constable had them. The constable told me some guy had them in the back of his pickup and stopped at a bar. He told the bartender he found them but she called the sheriff who sent the constable because they had collars and tags.
I don't have any mental health issues and I don't know you, do you know me? But Siegfried had 3 different personality disorders and had set himself on fire in Bremen, Germany in 1998 after a fight with a girlfriend and he did it at the girlfriend's apartment with children present.
[–]primak
I've been looking at that Dave Begotka guy because he had a custom motorcycle parts business and Halbach had an Ebay account I found back in 2006 and all she sold was motorcycle parts. Begotka is friends with Tadych also. Begotka was living in the area at the time, but moved to Texas after the trials. He was on a message board calling Avery guilty in 2009 and now acting like he's not guilty. Seems like his story of seeing Avery at a gas station in 2005 serves two purposes, to incriminate Avery and to create an alibi for himself by saying his wife was with him.
It still bothers me who was putting those magazines in that barn doorway that looked straight into the house. My dogs ran in those barns every day, and the magazines were placed one on christmas and one on new year's. Also on christmas, while I was looking around in the area where the magazine was, my 2 German Shepherds disappeared within about 2 minutes. One was under a year old and had just recovered from a broken leg (happened while I was at work, Siegfried said something fell on her but I think he kicked her) and the other was 8 years old with arthritis. They couldn't run that fast. So I looked all over and got in the car driving around looking and nothing. When it started to get dark, I called the sheriff and was told the constable had them. The constable told me some guy had them in the back of his pickup and stopped at a bar. He told the bartender he found them but she called the sheriff who sent the constable because they had collars and tags.
My older dog was sick when I got him back, I even called the vet. It seemed like he had been drugged or something. I wondered how the guy got him in that truck because he hated all trucks and he did not go to strangers. They guy must have been close to that Maribel house. I really don't see how they could have gotten that far in a couple of minutes. They had never done that before or after.
Anyway, the bar and that constable were all the way in Two Rivers, where that Begotka guy lived at the time. It was 12 miles away from that house in Maribel. The constable actually gave me the name and number of the guy, but I can't remember it. I only remember it was an unusual name and it was not a German name. Trying to find if there is still a record with the guy's name in it.
[–]StinkyPetes
ALL of the Citizen's assertions about the German man's arrest records were proven correct by a Redditor who was in direct contact with her and wanted to verify her story.
I've done a lot of work on this...and just a few days ago someone tried to shut me up.
So the German man is exactly who the Citizen says he is re crime...she's terrified for her life.
[-] tmuy99
Was the german man theory ever shut down? If so, why?
[–]StinkyPetes
yes it was shut down. Jacobs "lost' the evidence the Citizen gave them...and all the Citizen's posts on here have been deleted.
The current explanation is that she sees the errors of her ways and says the German man didn't have a gun.
The outbuildings on both properties she had been on with him burned to the ground a week or two AFTER she returned to Manitowoc...he is happily abusing women in Thailand. SO whether or not this man killed TH, he knew her..she SAID He showed the Citizen her car, AND he told the citizen that the photographer was stupid. In order to eliminate him, he should be interviewed...right? The panties in particular of are grave concern. Jacob lost them....they tried to say they were a child's panties, the Citizen disagreed saying they had traces of menstruation on them. There's more much more.
[-] tmuy99
It sounds like the citizen might have been afraid to proceed further. I noticed the comments were deleted.
Was the Germans name ever uncovered? This sounds really sketchy but its going to get cold without a name.
[–]StinkyPetes
Yes everything about him was uncovered and verified, but rules against doxing...so...no names.
[–]primak
this is not correct. The barns burned down in July 2009 when someone else was renting that property. It was about 2 weeks after Brian posted the blog. He never showed the wife the car, stop making stuff up! He spoke about a blue/green suv he alleged saw for sale in that area while he was driving around was what he said at the time. He never said the photographer was stupid, he said the cops and courts were stupid. It is not known if Jacobs lost anything, it is not known what happened to the items turned in to the sheriff. It is not the error of her ways. It was not known about the shots to the head at the time the sheriff was given the items and the authorities never questioned him because he didn't have a gun. Stop writing false information that you have not verified.
[–]StinkyPetes
You can't unring that bell [Brian McCorkle posting on June 23, 2009]. What you're saying is completely contradictory to what she told Brian McCorkle in 09. So, for whatever reason...he didn't have a gun you say? How do you know that? How convenient you say that when there is no way you can know if he did or didn't. All you can say is that he was not known to have a gun. He needs to be investigated.
[–]primak
Brian got some of the details incorrect. The original emails sent to him prove that. He called the woman friendly, the cops and court system in America stupid. Brian never considered him a suspect. No one else ever has, so if he did do it, you could say he must have committed the perfect crime. The original theory was he hit her in the head with the mason's hammer. Everybody has refuted that and stated she was shot with a gun. He did not have any guns or any way to get any guns. By the way, the victim witness assistance program was responsible for notifying the victim when the perpetrator was released from jail. That program was headed by Brenda Petersen, married to the brother of the sheriff, Ken Petersen. Her office was in Griesbach's office. She did not notify the victim in this case.
[-] tmuy99
Primak, do you think the German man killed TH? Why or why not?
[–]primak
I think there was suspicion enough to warrant the police questioning him. The police did not. He had no job, knew nobody there, had no alibi and stated he was in the area along with the other suspicious comments he made at the time. He has a significant mental health history and history of violent and aggressive behavior toward females.
Even if it's possible that he did, nobody cares. Nobody has ever questioned him, nobody is interested in questioning him, nobody ever looked at his history in Germany, nothing. So, it is a moot point.
Even the new legal team has said they are not interested in a new suspect, they are only trying to find legal errors in the cases. They have no interest in investigating. Brian has stated the documentary's purpose is to shed light on the workings of the criminal justice system, not to look for other suspects.
[–]headstilldown
I've never given up on german man. It is clear he had issues..... and he certainly was near enough. The real freaky frosting on top though is the dang psychic link out there that said something about pigs eating her.......
If you look at the listed reason for the fire, I recall it saying the fire was caused by a brooding type lamp that was keeping little pigs warm.
Explore that as you will...... just the messenger.....
Convoluted Brian HEARD the story from the lady in 2007. Somewhere it is written that he was a little bit afraid to post/blog it until 2009. Shortly after he posted it, the large barn on the property where german man was always burning things, playing with girls underwear etc. suddenly burned to the ground. If there happened to be evidence there, well, it disappeared in that fire.
While some people here poopoo the german man's wife's story, I actually do not. Too much of it was indeed backed up with police documentation to be invalid.
And the "pigs" issue.... well, if german man killed her in that barn, and bits of her were still there, and later a new owner raised pigs in that barn..... well, you can put two and two together IF you believe in the statements of a psychic.
[–]RazzBeryllium
There was quite a bit of discussion, and it looks like people were able to track down the wife (or verify her identity) and that of the husband. Most of the specifics in those conversations have been deleted, though.
Then - reportedly verified, but maybe not - the wife created a reddit account and started commenting. She ended up deleting all her comments.
And from what I can glean from comments made by users who were aware of her identity, the wife seems pretty crazy and gets into a bunch of fights on message boards about dog breeding (or something? It was hard to tell when half the comments were deleted). She apparently makes a lot of strange, outlandish statements. Because of that, people started to doubt the "German Man" theory.
[–]rztzz
She hasn't deleted all her comments. Since I'm just finding this post I'm going to comment for future readers. The wife was angry about receiving a dog from Alaska that was ridden with problems and parasites, anybody would be angry. She also seems to delete comments after getting flooded with disbelieving messages from other users - it's sort of a case of shooting the messenger.
BUT she has since mildly backed off her theories, suggesting that the German man had no access to a gun.
[–]AmpLee
In the original Brian thread, some people had tracked down Prima K's email through a k9 forum. I emailed her and have been talking with her ever since. I have forwarded those emails to a couple of members who have been interested in gathering the facts to make an alternative theory. Wildantics85 is one of those members.
[–]rztzz
She refers to him as "the german" probably because the original blog post, written by a guy named Brian in 2009, referred to him as the German and to her as "the civilian". Also I feel like she is now in regret mode and downplaying The German's involvement.
[–]primak
It was all relayed to Manitowoc county sheriff's dept. at the time, they had no interest in following up on anything. And for those who want to condemn the ex wife (she was ex wife #2, there is another ex wife in Germany) the man is not an innocent child, he is a violent and aggressive, controlling person who has abused numerous women, who was deported from the USA twice, who has a long mental health history of violent acts and personality disorders and who set himself on fire in 1998. If anyone had not been too lazy or incompetent to investigate this they would know what kind of person he is.
[–]primak
he's in the WI court system online records, he's on facebook, you won't find any records from Germany online, their laws don't allow it
[–][deleted]
The fact that this article doesn't mention either of the two people involved by name leads me to believe that this is just some fanfiction alternative. Doesn't help that the website looks like it was made on geocities in 1999. Can anybody find "Brian McCorkle"? If he has the proper information, we could investigate it farther.
[–]primak
It was published purposely to not name names because once you know his name you know the wife's name and then it becomes dangerous if there is anything to the suspicions.
[–]primak
It was in a German newspaper in 1998 when he set himself on fire. He is not an American citizen, so what would you expect to be in the news? Mental health info is protected, it is not made public.
I do not understand why you and others are attacking people over this. Believe whatever you like. Research it yourself. There is no reason to be so nasty and call people liars, etc.
[-] jemote
There is a criminal paper trail in Wisconsin and reasonably easy to find out (search the sub for the name). The two arrests discussed in the convolutedbrian post are corroborated by the record. What I find interesting is that in both cases, the presiding official was Patrick Willis, the same in the Avery trial. Also, the prosecutor was Michael Griesback, who was involved in Avery's original trial. And the defense attorney was the same in both cases, Thomas Gerleman.
[–]evelynpeach
I emailed him [Brian McCorkle] a few days ago (that webmaster email listed on his website) and he (or someone) actually wrote back. I pretty much asked him if the story was real - I probably should have asked more questions but didn't want to bombard him. He said : The individuals are real. The arrest and court involvement are real. I believe that the Citizen is reliable. I understand that shortly after I published this post, that the barn burned down. That was verified by a news account, but may be coincidental.
[–]primak
I do not make outlandish claims on dog message boards or anywhere else. I paid about $2,000 for a puppy from a breeder in Arizona and received a sick puppy who ended up having parasites but more importantly long term irritable bowel disorder. I made a complaint about the breeder to the BBB and the breeder enlisted his friends on various dog forms (none of whom knew me) to begin attacking my credibility. When people read internet forums they need to verify who is behind them, but they do not.
I made no outlandish claims about the sick puppy. The dog had chronic irritable bowel disease confirmed in vet reports. I received no support from the breeder, no reimbursement, in fact, the opposite, I was attacked and made to look like a fool. Additionally, those message boards are moderated by friends of the breeder who sold me the puppy and one of them is his own message board on his own website. If you look on ripoffreport.com you can find my original complaint or the Arizona BBB complaint #8229856 in 2010.
All of the information published by Brian McCorkle was also given to law enforcement back in 2006. What was investigated or not investigated, only Manitowoc county sheriff's dept. can say. I do not know.
Furthermore, the information was known by the attorneys on the case who also did not consider the person to be a viable suspect. What investigation they did I also do not know.
Lastly, Brian McCorkle also indicated to me that he no longer believed the person to be a viable suspect due to all forensic reports indicating the victim had been shot in the head and the German did not possess any guns. McCorkle did not publish any later article to express this or remove the original alternate theory. You would have to ask him why, I do not know.
It appears that the dog situation is not connected to McCorkle's blog. But, the dog message boards were used by a different county in Wisconsin to confiscate the dogs 3 years later. If that county plans to use these message board comments in any court action, they will be required to disclose the identities of the posters and I would be allowed to cross examine them. This is the danger of message boards, or gossip boards. People feel secure to sit behind a keyboard and post untruths or venomous comments to fuel attacks on others with no direct information about the person and more and more is added to the story line.
This dog situation will most likely end up in federal court as a civil rights case. I have identified those message board posters and I do not know any of them and none of them ever saw any of my dogs. If you also look further into Alpine K9, you will see there have been other complaints from customers being sold sick dogs, although he tries to threaten people or delete any negative reviews about him (owner of Alpine K9 Mr. Zdenek Blabla) on the internet or available to the public. Most of my comments were deleted or I was blocked from responding to their erroneous and outlandish comments.
Unless others would also like to become party to a lawsuit, I would recommend not publishing any further comments about the mental status of a person unknown to you. I have never been diagnosed or treated for any mental disorder or defect.
To summarize, the man referred to in convoluted brian's blog was never considered to be a viable suspect because the forensic evidence did not link him to the crime. You must remember, that theory was explored in the very early stages of the investigation before all forensics were completed and subsequently abandoned when forensic reports were completed.
Secondly, I believe the dog situation has been explained above. These message board comments have been repeatedly taken out of context, added to, embellished and what was originally a simple BBB complaint has been, over the years, spun into a huge web of untruths, accusations and defamation ultimately which will lead to a federal civil rights lawsuit.
[–]thismisspage[S]
Hi, thanks for responding. Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your dog situation - anything about harming animals breaks my heart and my friend has had a similar situation buying a horse and I've seen some horrible comments about her so I know how emotive and unfair that whole world can be.
I was really interested in your story, not necessarily as a solution to the Avery mystery but as context for how badly the police in this town handled such serious and scary crimes. I think it is very telling that the defence team have not used this to defend Steven, although perhaps this was a matter of prioritising based on what they had access to?
I have so many questions about your personal thoughts on your own story, completely separate from Steven or Teresa, I don't want to be disrespectful so I understand if you would rather not comment - but do you think, given the items you found, that some kind of crime occurred?
[–]primak
I did believe so at the time which is why I went to the sheriff. I was new to the state and did not know the history of Manitowoc county and the Averys. After delving into this case again in 2011 and after speaking to Dassey's attorney about my suspicions I was harassed (had moved to WI again in late 2010, but in different yet close county to Manitowoc) and after requesting records from Manitowoc county in 2012 I was accused of animal neglect in early 2013. Someone had been trailing me online since Aug 2011 and I have evidence of that. I also have evidence that the animal charges were unfounded. I ran out of money and also did not find an attorney who was not scared off.
I will also confidently state that if the Avery Dassey cases appalled you, the dog case would appall you equally if not even more. I would also agree with the poster who wrote, never go to Wisconsin. The state has a pattern of people retaining positions of authority or power for lengthy periods of time. This practice leads to virtually no oversight and breeds corruption, authorities covering for one another, developing personal relationships with judges, etc. and makes it easy for a person to be wrongly accused with the cooperation of all of those in power to do it.
I can confidently make the statement, however, that there are cases where cops fabricate or plant evidence and we have all seen instances of this. Evidence was fabricated in the dog situation and yes there is documentation to prove that and to prove they embellished or outright lied. Documents from verifiable and reliable sources. Does this mean they did that in the Avery Dassey cases? I do not know. That is precisely what people are trying to prove.
[–]primak
Brian's blog is incorrect. He said he drove by a junk yard while driving to the beach. I do not know what day he drove there, some day that week. He did not say any photographer was stupid or anything about a photographer. He said a woman stopped and he did not know what she wanted. He said she was friendly. The stupid was referring to police and courts in WI.
[–]StinkyPetes
One minute there was a woman, the next minute he never met a woman....and mildly insane man thinks cops in WI are stupid. Excellent.
[–]primak
Whether or not there was a woman is no evidence it was the woman who was a murder victim. And all of you think the cops in WI are stupid. And he was not directing that at WI cops in particular, but the entire USA. People from Europe find the amount of violent crime, especially murder, astounding in the USA.
[–]StinkyPetes
And I find the dramatic about face on this man to be...dramatic.
First he's an insane clothing cutting maniac in and out of mental facilities, and them I'm expected to think his take on American violence to be useful?
At this point, consider there is a hole...stop digging it deeper. The cops in Manitowoc are never going to win any intelligence awards. Ever.
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/
I cannot being to imagine what possible reason anyone would have for flip flopping so dramatically on this. Well, I can, but it would be impolite to speculate.
[–]primak
People have been trying to promote this conspiracy theory for a long time, but where is the evidence connecting him to this crime? There is now evidence that was entered against Avery that was never available to the public before, short of someone paying for all of these documents.
Next, with your theory why would police let a man like that go free if they knew he was the killer? I do not see any answers to that. What would prevent him from killing another woman in the same way? Nothing. And who would the police frame for that one?
Seeing actual evidence submitted against Steven Avery is the answer to your question, along with the FACT that Dassey's attorney came across the same blog five years ago and found no evidence to connect any German man to this crime.
Police reports are not secret information. If any of the numerous attorneys on these two cases had found any evidence of connecting the German man to this murder via the yellow underwear or anything else, pretty sure they would have done it long ago.
The only thing dramatic is your refusal to let go of this particular conspiracy theory that you provide no evidence to support. I examine possibilities and dismiss them based on process of elimination by examination of fact. It's called analytical reasoning. You seem to have an issue admitting you could be wrong, whereas I do not have an issue with that.
Lastly, you are also wrong about the cops in Manitowoc never going to win any intelligence awards. They already have received awards for this case.
[–]StinkyPetes
I think the bipolar nature of the posts of the personS using the handle primak....should be quite enough..
Didn't you say Jacobs destroyed/lost the evidence you gave him?
I think you've probably talked a bit too much.
"I examine possibilities and dismiss them based on process of elimination by examination of fact. It's called analytical reasoning. You seem to have an issue admitting you could be wrong, whereas I do not have an issue with that."
Really? Seriously? Who the hell are you kidding. You wrote that and "awards for this case" in the same post.
Kratz?
[–]primak
It is not known what Jacobs did with the items given him. You keep referring to it as evidence, but you do not not that it was evidence of anything, let alone this murder. I suggest you ask Jacobs yourself.
[–]StinkyPetes
Suddenly you don't know? Have you forgotten you previously posted that the cops told you they lost it?
[–]primak
That is not correct, it was posted that Jacobs lost his memory of a meeting, not lost anything else.
[–]StinkyPetes
LOL do explain, what is the difference?
[–]primak
if you think these guys are innocent then don't waste your time chasing a dead end and look for the real killer(s)
Sorry I have never had the luxury of having all case evidence at my disposal and theories have to be altered based on the evidence, which we only have in bits and pieces and scattered on various websites.
Maybe if someone had provided me with all the evidence documents years ago all at once I would have figured it out.
It looks as if you are not here to contribute anything useful to discussion but merely as a troll. So what's your stake in this? To prevent any truth from coming out by steering people in the wrong direction?
[–]StinkyPetes
"So what's your stake in this? To prevent any truth from coming out by steering people in the wrong direction?"
Yes, that's it, that's the ticket...whoever did this...IS going to get caught. Zellner does not take cases to get guilty people off.
That being said, I wonder where the original poster PrimaK is?
[–]primak
All of these alternate theories have too many holes to be plausible. I'm sticking with the Avery is guilty theory until there is some hard proof like scientific evidence showing any blood, DNA, etc. was planted.
The man with the ax was Andres Martinez and his sentence for that crime was vacated in 2008. The court failed to inform him that pleading guilty and being convicted would subject him to deportation to Cuba, so they had to release him. He cannot be tried for the same crime twice.
[-] kitthekat
IMO a random killing (like in the article)/serial killer passing through the area is the only scenario that fits the police-framing theory. In such a small town, any details about the murder being by known-person would have surfaced publicly by now. And while the police might have moved the corpse and planted evidence, they certainly weren't the killers.
The FBI traces the routes of known serial killers through different states and matches them to unsolved murders all the time. While the TH isn't considered unsolved, I'm surprised no one has tried this!
Where does the article say that the husband was known by TH? It appears to talk about the husband committing a random murder, which is exactly what I said seems most plausible
In criminology, a known person is someone who has a connection to the victim that goes beyond the scope of the planning of, or commission of, the crime. As in: a co-worker, a spouse, a family member. A single, RANDOM interaction with a person that instigated or led to the crime is considered a RANDOM connection. The terms don't necessarily make common sense, but they fit within the definitions of psychology.
So again - not really.
At least you went about trying to state your argument in a mature way, without trying to sound like a condescending know-it-all! Oh, wait.
Source: psych degree, interned in criminal psychology
Spurious links in the case
By hollieluluboo, TickTockManitowoc
February 22, 2017
Just a thought because a link to this post on the MaM sub popped up in my facebook feed in relation to KK's appearance for a TV interview where he apparently says at some point they thought TH had been taken to Chicago...unrelated to this but thought it was an interesting suggestion.
In the blurb of that post in MaM - it says the 'german' lived at Glen's Bar and Grill in Manitowoc.
[–][deleted]
The building that once housed Glenn's Bar and Grill is gone.
https://manitowoctavernhistory.org/835-s-15th-st-new-location/
[–]s_wardy_s
Is this the bar where "the club" used to meet? The style looks identical to the place psychic Nova says that TH was held. Here's Nova's drawing:
https://ponto0.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_20160218_225816.jpg
And the old bar:
http://manitowoctavernhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/glennswinter2010.jpg
EDIT: She even has a note on her drawing saying "maybe a balcony" and in the picture we cleary see a balcony.
[-] magiclougie
Nova the psychic noted on her drawing that the place where the killers met to plan the murder of Teresa Halbach and the framing of Steven Avery might have had a second floor balcony. And, according to Convoluted Brian:
[–]Colorado_love
You're the only other person I've seen mention Nova.
Her video made the hair on my neck stand up. And I'm not usually one who believes in psychics, but there's something about her video that rings true.
[–]s_wardy_s
If Glenn's Bar is the place they planned the murder as Nova eluded to, and there was evidence there, then it's all gone after the place was demolished in 2010.
What if she is even partly correct about what went down. Say RH (or ST) had a fight with TH and knocked her unconscious, and some unsavoury people got involved and did the blackmailing to make him plant shit.
[–]s_wardy_s
Some other weird shit: google Glenn's Bar Manitowoc, and apparently it was the place to celebrate the Rotary Club. And Rotary was born from the Freemasons. Freemasons are normally made up of local politicians, law, and upstanding professionals. Are these people referred to as "the club" or the people meeting to decide the fate of TH?
[–]hollieluluboo[S]
'The Club' is the Eagles, which is a branch of Freemasonry called Phoenixmasonry. It is apparently where sometimes there would be adult 'parties' (I'll leave that to your imagination. TH is alleged to have attended some of these parties, either as a participant or photographer - not sure which).
[-] TheMoonIsOurMission
The German man has already been found, we know his name from extensive research along with others from this sub. He's been deported from the US and is believed to be living in Thailand at the moment. The officer involved in this instance was deputy Jacobs, I think that should be looked into.
[–][deleted]
I've shared with SA's legal team that we have this info but I feel strongly that it would be inappropriate to share individual's personal information in such a public forum.
The source for this information posted on one of my comments. I won't post her user name but she put up a couple of walls of text that should be easy enough to find.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/
[-] TheMoonIsOurMission
We know his name. "The citizen" has recently been interviewed by someone here on reddit. Deputy Jacobs, the officer who took the report, needs to be investigated.
[–][deleted]
primak is "the citizen" from the story. I have done a good amount of digging and believe that she is who she says she is. For obvious reasons, I cannot corroborate most of the facts in her story, but I would be interested in having law enforcement look into it.
[–]OopsISed2Mch
Has anyone had any luck finding the police report that "citizen" gave that November? Edit: Yes, it has been located. The real question is what became of the evidence handed over that night.
[–]OopsISed2Mch
It's available through public records searches. Since it involves personally identifying info of those people, though, I don't feel comfortable distributing it. Evidence was turned over to police though and I never found any reference to follow up on it.
I don't believe in Psychic but...
By CaseFilesReviewer, TickTockManitowoc
November 19, 2017
Here's the deal, a friend of mine who was a Homicide Detective, once hired a psychic to help solve a case just for giggles & kicks. Neither he nor I believe in psychics but she did end up solving the case thereby making it difficult for me to just dismiss physic vision.
Last year, someone shared a picture a physic did after getting a vision on where TH was taken:
https://novasensitiva.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_20160218_225816.jpg
Here is the link to the psychic's blog:
https://novasensitiva.com/2016/02/14/psychic-reading-making-a-murderer/amp/
I went nuts trying to find anything that looked close, within the radius of the last ping from TH's phone.
Take a look at 44° 2'13.30"N, 87°57'25.07"W. That location, on 151, mapped out to distance from tower of TH's phone's last ping.
That is the location I noticed the white Jeep and at that location has a long white barn.
https://imgur.com/XVvNzHO
Today, while trying to make a connection to the Jeep on 151, I've been running through tax maps to determine ownership of every address ST had used. To my surprise, more like shock, one of the addresses seemed to match up with the Psychic's vision.
Knowing names & addresses can not be posted and I feel it inappropriate to post GPS positions to a home; I will providing a GPS position (44° 9'38.43"N, 87°36'22.01"W) that is the area, in the event anyone wants to do a compare. Please note, it likely is little more than coincidental but I do feel it's worth sharing.
The profile of both the barn & home are uncanny. The barn is set back from the house whereby mamma' wouldn't even know whose back there (plus, she was in the hospital at the time).
[–]Lord-CATalog
Now the question is: Who does this property belong to?
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
ST's mom ;)
BTW - If you search the tax maps, you will find the owner information. Additionally, if you have access to Intelius you will find it's an address he had used.
[–]s_wardy_s
Post your google coordinates into google earth and go back to 2005, there's not much there on that block of land.
Though let me share with you a post I wrote 8 months ago on this subject which pretty closely identifies the right building:
Reddit post from March 2017
Just thought I'd post this cause it's a little more than weird. There have been a couple of posts put up on Reddit that have ties to a video by psychic Nova.
One post refers to a picture of an unsavoury man standing next to KK (image below).
Another post refers to an old pub (Glenn's Bar) in Manitowoc,the owner supposedly found the "other" mobile phone by the creek. (Campion owned Chiller's Bar & Grill.)
For those who don't know, Nova posted the video over a year ago (February 14, 2016), and some of the things she says have already started to make sense, such as she says that many phone calls were made on Nov 4, and we know RH received 22 calls from one number that day.
For those who haven't watched her video, here is a summary of what she says:
Two people were involved.
TH left Avery and then got a call from someone she wasn't happy with, and the caller lured her somewhere.
TH knew the person who killed her and referred to him as my... and he was in the documentary.
Her killer wore a white shirt and black leather jacket. This man was between 30 and 40, he had long face, big forehead, short hair with receding hairline, little eyes. He was an aggressive and troubled person. They argued and he punched her, they fought, and she was unconscious.
TH was held captive in a place like a big shelter or garage, pretty long, dark, isolated, it was kinda empty, wet, and cold. The building seemed to have a pointed roof and big entrance gate.
The second man was unknown to Teresa, and he was older, an important person of authority. He wore black clothes, his hands were at his waist (like if this was a trait of his usual body language), and he was blackmailing and threatening the first man so he would follow his orders.
She says this was a man knew getting rid of TH would free him of all his troubles. She says this man was an expert who knew how to get rid of the body and set up SA.
There was also someone very high up in politics involved.
Planning took place in large double story light-colored house*, where a few people came together to discuss it.
She says there is some paper evidence in a house. She also says keys would be found in that house.
There is lots of talking on phones that day, and there would be phone records to prove that many calls were made.
TH was shot at night on 10/31 between 11 pm and 1 am. The body was burned on 11/4. (Same prediction as Sikikey.)
There were many people seen in the documentary that knew about the cover-up.
Google Glenn's bar Manitowoc -- apparently it was the place to celebrate the Rotary Club. And Rotary was born from the Freemasons. Freemasons are normally made up of local politicians, law, and upstanding professionals. Are these people referred to as "the club" or the people meeting to decide the fate of TH?
* Is this the bar where "the club" used to meet? The building looks identical to the place psychic Nova says that TH was held.
Here's Nova's drawing and notice the drawing on the right side of a double story house:
And the old bar:
She even has a note on her drawing saying "maybe a balcony," and in the picture we clearly see a balcony. Plus her notes talk about a place of meeting (Rotary Club and local politicians and police top brass).
By the way, Glenn's Bar was demolished in 2010.
Scott Tadych's place of work, Wisconsin Aluminum Foundry, is one or two blocks away.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S
The 05' imaging is really blurry, there is something there and I can just make out the darker field area but I really can't tell if the barn is just a lighter square in where it shows in the later pictures.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
One of u two PM me! I don’t do maps well. It’s gotta be spelled out for me. I wanna fall off the chair too!!
[–]Lord-CATalog
Just copy the coordinates into google maps and voila. No beverages or you risk to damage your keyboard!
[–][deleted]
The building in question is a horse barn, the fenced area surrounding it is a horse pen. This image is a screenshot from the Manitowoc County GIS website. Use the oblique images feature to see for yourself.
https://imgur.com/piA9bxr
http://webmap2.manitowoc-county.com/EasyAccess/
[–]seekingtruthforgood
The even creepier one, for me anyway, is the address shown for where he is living right now... that's the one that makes me feel completely creeped out... I wonder whether it's real or somehow cross referenced by mistake because of the MAM threads in social media... 44 15’00.18” N 87 39’24.67” W
[–]thebeacon32
The white barn in the back has the doors on the long side of the building instead of on the end like the psychic's drawing, but still similar. I’m not seeing narrow windows on my view unless those are running along top of the doors?
Seven comma eight - []
It does not fit 100%... but i think the house and the barn fit better than her description of the 2 men.... I think they don't fit BoD or ST at all 🤔
[–]ziggymissy
I would swear the psychic is talking about ST (Scott Tadych) and TK (Tom Kocourek)?
[–]pdent
Can someone please link me to the actual photo? I can't access maps. However this was something I posted about last year.
Very keen to see this property.
Good post.
[–]thebeacon32
Look at the link above by the user who “knows” - it’s a White House with a black roof, with a white barn with green roof behind it. ETA: it looks like that link was removed. I don’t think we can link to the actual image
ETA: go to instant street view dot com
[–]skippymofo
Do we have a picture around 2005? ST lived sometimes by his mother end of 1990´ (according to the Court reports). I am pretty sure KZ tweet about abusive women included his mother.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
There were some in from 05' via Google Earth history but nothing for the timeframe. So, no teal car :( I was going to check to see if anyone else had a satellite in the area but it's unlikely as the closes pass over there seems to be 11/11/2005.
[–]plowbabe
It would be great if you reviewed Nova's thoughts and that gal Amy's thoughts to see what two different psychics have said and to see if it all jives. This is out of my ability to pay that close attention.
[–]MMonroe54
Can someone post initials -- or a hint -- of who lived at CL (initials for name of street)? If I ever knew, I've forgotten.
[–][deleted]
Her son visited her when she was in the hospital.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
The location, that seems to match psychic reading, is that of his mom's. I stumbled on it, when searching out all the addresses he had used.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
He lived there, it’s the mother that was in the hospital home they are talking about.
[–][deleted]
She is the owner of the property, the adjacent properties are also owned by Tadych family members. This is a desirable neighborhood, which coincidentally is very close to where Penny B was attacked on the beach just north of Two Rivers.
[–]knowfere
Here's a screenshot of the google maps image of the above noted coordinates. Looking eerily like the drawing by the psychic.
[–]cardiacarrest1965
Definitely an interesting find. There are some previous posts regarding the psychic drawing. I have always thought the rental house in Maribel where the German stayed also fit the bill. There were a barn and outbuildings on the property that mysteriously burned to the ground (see image below).
From Google Maps:
https://i.imgur.com/GbcOXSS.jpg
[-] magiclougie
The images below of the Maribel property that Mrs. German rented show it before and after the buildings were burned to the ground (the Google street view, dated October 2008, also shows the outbuildings on the farm).
Maybe the barn that burned down on the German's rental property was for a pig farm (example of a pig farm building in the image below).
An alternate theory continued [Spoilers]
By [deleted], MakingaMurderer
December 30, 2015
Please consider this only as a theory with a very critical eye and please do let me know your thoughts. However, DO NOT USE ANY OF THIS INFORMATION TO HARASS OR BADGER ANYONE INVOLVED!! I've put this together because the logical question that would need to be answered if SA is indeed innocent is "if not SA, then who?" I'm not certain of SA's innocence, but I feel that TH's family deserves a better answer than what was presented at trial.
Big ups to u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 for finding the court records to corroborate some facts in http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html and u/AmpLee for reaching out to the citizen.
I've gone ahead and pulled together some additional info to support an alternate theory of the crime. It fits fairly well with the facts that were presented during the trial, but relies heavily on the claims that "the citizen" from Brian's blog post makes. However, if they are true, they present a plausible version of events that makes every bit as much sense as the nonsense to which Brendan Dassey "confessed".
Facts and less disputed evidence from trial:
Manitowoc County was on the hook for $36 million if they were found liable in SA's civil suit because insurers were balking on payment given the alleged misconduct of the DA and sheriff's office
On November 2nd, a third party deleted voice messages from TH's voicemail
On November 3rd, a sheriff's deputy calls in TH's plates with a vehicle description
TH was killed and her body burned between 10/31 and 11/5
TH's Rav4 was found on SA's lot 11/5
TH's remains were found in two or three piles, two relatively close to SA's trailer and another roughly 2,000 ft SW of the pit in the quarry though it’s unclear that they certainly belonged to TH
TH's skull had what appeared to the forensic examiner to be 2 .22 bullet holes
Discussion of an alternative story
I have heard from "the citizen" in Brian's blog story, and she claims that she was his original source. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve her, but I am confident that she is the person listed in the court documents that u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 found. I will be sure to call out what I've corroborated separately (like this) from now on. She provides the following version of events somewhat consistent with what she told Brian (I can discuss privately why I’m confident this person is indeed the citizen):
The week of October 31st 2005, the citizen’s husband at the time, now ex-, "the husband", was acting strangely, cutting the tags from her clothing and cutting her clothing apart. Their relationship became strained so she rented a place in Maribel, WI to separate. The property is about 5 miles from Avery Auto Salvage, and is located along the route Teresa would have taken to get home to St. John from SA's (I've verified that court docs for the citizen did list a location along this route):
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Avery's+Auto+Salvage,+12930+Avery+Rd,+Two+Rivers,+WI+54241/St+John,+WI/@44.2885867,-88.0038068,11z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x88032f8641fb3e73:0xb85fa553298bb0bf!2m2!1d-87.6925129!2d44.253025!1m5!1m1!1s0x8803a72633bd68e7:0x1bf9e76f0e9dead!2m2!1d-88.2035057!2d44.1686252
On the 6th, the husband was taken into custody after a dispute with the citizen after his behavior became increasingly erratic (verified with court documents). The citizen shared that after that time, her dogs kept finding bones (she threw them away), as well as a pair of underwear, and a tool kit with a mason hammer with flicks of blood on it (in a police report filed after a complaint was made by the citizen). The underwear and tools were turned into the police (acknowledged in what looks like a genuine police report by the officer recording her complaint).
Her theory is that TH was drawn to the property because it had a "for rent" sign on it and stopped for more information, perhaps to photograph the property (the property's tax assessment lists a third party owner as of 2013 -- it appears to indeed be a rental property). The husband then killed TH by strangulation and with the mason hammer, put her body in the Rav4, and parked the Rav4 in the barn before burning her body on November 2nd.
The husband was held after his arrest on November 6th until January, at which point he was released (confirmed with court documents), then re-arrested almost immediately after getting into another dispute with the citizen. His next release was on March 2nd, the day after Brandon Dassey's confession when Dassey was first arrested, with the stipulation that he check in with the Sheriff's office daily (again all confirmed this with court documents). According to the citizen, the husband was held in psychiatric facilities during some of his stay with the county.
What is not articulated above, but not difficult to guess, is how the Rav4 and remains got onto SA's property.
A relatively simple hypothesis: the plate query on the 3rd resulted when the sheriff's deputy found the Rav4 along with the remains of TH's body.
One or more officers worked on moving the car to SA's lot before the 5th and relocated TH's remains to their final location.
The key was found later than the blood in the Rav4 because the police had access to the Rav4 earlier than SA's trailer because they had the Rav4 before it was found, and so the blood was present before the key was found. The bullet was tampered with as the defense claims.
Interesting developments after the husband’s release: both the citizen and the husband moved to Oregon (they appear in an Oregon newspaper), but according to the citizen, the husband was deported in 2009. At that point, the citizen moves back to Wisconsin and starts digging around to find out what happened and why the husband wasn’t arrested, etc. During this time, she gets in touch with convoluted Brian, and Brian posts her story to his blog.
Shortly after Brian posts her story to his blog on June 23rd, 2009, the out-building(s) in which the Rav4 was allegedly hidden, and where the murder allegedly took place, were burned down. (If you find the address, check out the street view vs. the aerial view. The street view date is October 2008 and the out buildings are still there, and aerial from 2015 doesn’t show them…super creepy.)
I confirmed the outbuildings were burned down with a print-out of an online news write-up and a website that compiles info on fires in which animals are killed.
http://firesafetyinbarns.com/loss-pdfs/animals_lost_by_fire_2009_combined.pdf (page 8)
The citizen begins having trouble with local law enforcement, culminating in her arrest for animal cruelty in 2013. She currently has a warrant out for her arrest by the Manitowoc Sheriff's department (both verified with court documents), though she since moved out of state.
The citizen also produced links to Facebook profiles for the husband. Looks like he's living abroad still, though not in his native country.
A caveat to all: this whole story is about the citizen's now ex-husband. I wouldn't accuse an ex of killing somebody no matter how it ended, but I'm not the citizen, so certainly consider the alternative story of the crime with a grain of salt. That being said, everything she does say seems to check out generally and the husband, if she is telling the truth, could be the answer to “if not SA, then who?”
Also, a couple of questions I haven’t seen elsewhere:
Where were the rest of TH’s keys? Who goes out with only a car key?
I found a source that says that cremation requires 90 minutes at 1600 - 1800 C, but an outdoor fire would surely be cooler. TH’s body would have needed much longer than the 7-9 time frame given by the DA no? (http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/E-Book/injuries/thermal-injuries)
[-] ladybh
Looks like PrimaK deleted her account? What ever happened there? Seemed interesting and like potentially promising info, but guessing nothing ever panned out?
[–][deleted]
I don't really know. She made one last post which has also since been deleted about how she was nervous about having appeared on reddit and thought it was a bad idea, etc. I suggested that she reach out to a member of the Avery family or members of Avery's original legal team but I don't know if she did either.
[–]resavr_bot
A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.
I first contacted convoluted Brian back in 2007. That's when I told him the strange things that had happened in WI. He did not publish what I told him until 2009.
Avery & Dassey People
xxxxx xxxx <xxxx_xxxxx@yahoo.com>
To convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com 04/28/07 at 6:43 PM
Thank you for the e-mail. I am not 100% convinced about anyone's innocence, but my feeling leads heavily toward those 2 individuals not having committed this crime.
The information I would like to share with you may or may not have any bearing on the crime, but I believe it is worth considering, especially in light of the fact that no other possible suspects were really ever investigated.
The information I want to share to get your ideas, thoughts on, cannot be told in a few words or sentences. It is convoluted at best and needs someone who can think critically and analytically, which I believe you do from reading your blog.
I am 49 years old, college educated and not a native of WI. I only spent half a year living there for a job, and lived in Maribel specifically from Nov. 1, 2005 until Feb. 15, 2006. I rented a big old farmhouse at 9414 County road Z in Maribel and picked up the key for it on Oct. 31, 2005, the day of the crime. At this point, not having lived in WI very long and not being at all familiar with the area, not even really following the news because I was always working, I had no idea about this incident. I found out later as the events unfolded. I was working in WI as a program director for a social services company. My actual office was in Green Bay.
In order to share the information with you which may or may not relate to this crime, I would have to give you some background information and then lead up to the odd things which occurred and which I found between Oct. 31, 2005 until I left Maribel, WI on Feb. 15, 2006. I currently live in Portland, Oregon. Everything that I will tell you was reported to the Manitowoc County Sheriff's office when I was living there, but they focused solely on Avery and would not even consider the possibility of any other suspect. I spoke once in person with Detective Dennis Jacobs regarding some items I had found and released those items to him. I found a few other items later on, but due to the disinterest of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept., I threw them away.
I was not aware of Avery's past wrongful conviction or the lawsuit against Manitowoc County at that time, as I said previously. Had I known that, I may have gone to another source and not Manitowoc.
If you want to hear what I have to say, you can reply. If not, then it will save me the time to type it all. I don't know anything for certain, but I saw enough to make me suspect there may have been a different person involved and a completely different scenario other than what the DA's office presented. I have never discussed this with anyone and don't really want to get involved but it bothers me that perhaps innocent people have been convicted of crimes when maybe not all was properly investigated.
https://www.resavr.com/comment/an-alternate-theory-continued-2319230
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[–]resavr_bot
A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.
There are a lot of details that were concerning during this time. I would really have to write it all out in a timeline. When I spoke to convoluted Brian, the connection was very poor, his voice was very faint and muffled and he also had difficulty hearing me and I had to repeat several times. He got most of it correct, but some things incorrect and some omitted. It was not until early 2011 that he contacted me again after publishing the blog.
Although most know my name, I have omitted it here in this email. It was shortly after speaking with Ms. Nirider (Nirider was requesting records from Manitowoc after contacting me) that an anonymous person, who sounded like a cop, began trailing me online on German Shepherd boards.
My trouble got worse as I began requesting records from Manitowoc county in 2012. I would think my problems in WI regarding my dogs were unrelated had there not been this anonymous person, whose identity I have never discovered, tracking me down, knew my name, knew where I lived, but did not know much else about me (such as what I looked like) and made reference to an old unsolved murder case in Waupaca county and called WI "land of get away with murder".
This person wanted to hurt me, ruin me and for an unexplained reason. They wanted to make sure they had the right person. They used the screen name, "forthedogs", and posted on pedigree database.com
The problem was none of the people on pedigreedatabase.com had ever met me nor seen me, they only knew of me because I had made complaints about a sick dog I was sold by one of their buddies, a big name breeder in Arizona. This anonymous person with the screen name "forthedogs" stated he/she wanted any info about me anyone had, what kind of person he/she would be dealing with because our paths would probably cross. He/she also stated he/she was not a dog breeder. Whoever this person is, he/she was after me. To this day, I do not know who it is or why they were after me. Aside from the German husband, my life is very boring and nothing at all remarkable that would cause anyone to look for me and want to hurt me.
Brian McCorkle convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com
To xxxxx xxxx 03/22/11 at 9:57 PM
I have been contacted by one of the lawyers (from Northwestern University) working on the Dassey appeal. She would like your contact information.
Would that be permissible?
Brian McCorkle convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com
https://www.resavr.com/comment/an-alternate-theory-continued-2318391
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[–]thosefamouspotatoes
Question for primaK or AmpLee: did the German own a .22? (Not that it's an uncommon thing to have in rural WI.)
[–]AmpLee
She said he didn't own any guns.
[–]Mystic_printer
But he had a bloody mason hammer. What do they look like? Could it possibly make a wound like was found on the skull fragments?
[–]SirMildredPierce
Since you are cool with having the address out there I might as well post this map showing the 5 1/2 mile route between the Avery residence and the house in Maribel:
http://i.imgur.com/7xwyu1m.jpg
And here is historical shots of the property before and after the L-shaped barnwas razed burned down:
http://imgur.com/a/Xy9lh
Was there any kind of report filed with the Police or Fire Department that corroborates the burning of the barn?
[–]thedavehughes
The fire portion can be confirmed on page 8 of the link below.
http://firesafetyinbarns.com/loss-pdfs/animals_lost_by_fire_2009_combined.pdf
[–]SirMildredPierce
In another post you mention that "the German" was held in detention from 2008 to 2009 and deported thereafter. In your opinion would that rule him out as being directly responsible for burning down the barn?
By August141981, TickTockManitowoc
November 7, 2016
November 3, 2005 was a seemingly busy day for Manitowoc and surrounding areas. Carmen Boutwell was found of a suspicious drug overdose that morning at approximately 8:30 am. Teresa Halbach is reported missing later that day at approximately 5:00 pm. Steven Avery shows on the Global Subject Activity Report Summary as HOMICIDE SUSPECT at 6:34 pm.
Can these three events be connected? It certainly looks as though they can.
Warrant was issued for Carmen Boutwell's arrest on October 10, 2005:
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetails.do;jsessionid=1FB01A0C071E340DB6CD1315968E172E.render6?caseNo=2005CF000341&countyNo=36&cacheId=A5587DAFB43FFED9A7E1F5AE65F0597E&recordCount=6&offset=3&mode=details&submit=View+Case+Details
September 19, 2005 - was this the test run?
October 10, 2005 - was this a failed or aborted attempt to lure Teresa to her death?
CB Warrant filed Oct 10, 2005
CB Warrant served Oct 12, 2005
CB Bail/Bond Hearing Oct 13, 2005
CB Initial appearance Oct 17, 2005
CB Notice entered Oct 2005 - Review is set for Nov 3, 2005 @ 8:30 am
Teresa Halbach is scheduled with AutoTrader and has an appointment with Steven Avery at salvage yard.
Ryan Hillegas speaks with TH over the phone for 17 minutes the evening of Oct 10, 2005. Note he called or received calls from TH, and if you look at the phone records of RH, you will see a pattern Oct 10/11 & Oct 30/31.
RH's phone record call patterns do seem quite similar for both Monday the 10th and Monday the 31.
Monday October 10 2005
8:13 AM Voice
Monday October 10 2005
3:53 PM Incoming Mrc
Monday October 10 2005
5:45 PM 2 DM
Monday October 10 2005
6:20 PM Incoming 17 TH
Monday October 10 2005
6:46 PM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
6:40 AM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
7:56 AM Oshkosh
Tuesday October 11 2005
11:31 AM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
11:43 AM Outgoing TH
The Fateful final 48 hours:
October 30 2005
1:26 PM 1 SB
October 30 2005
1:35 PM 2 SB
October 30 2005
3:30 PM 1 VIDEO
October 31 2005
9:10 AM Incoming 8 DM
October 31 2005
9:41 AM Incoming 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
3:48 PM 1 Voice
October 31 2005
3:50 PM CM
October 31 2005
6:01 PM Incoming 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
6:02 PM Incoming 23 Unknown
October 31 2005
6:25 PM 3 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:19 PM Incoming 3 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:36 PM 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:37 PM 2 SB
October 31 2005
7:47 PM Incoming 5 SB
What was CB doing leading up to October 31, 2005?
Prior to October 31, 2005
CB had met with LE days prior to her death. Her grandmother had driven her to an out of the place location where they met LE, and CB sat in the back seat of LE’s car, refusing to tell them what they wanted to hear. She was nervous and anxious about this meeting.
CB - October 31, 2005
On the day of October 31st, her family tells me that she was attending school in prep to attend college and had came home for lunch that day and spoke with her mom about what she was doing for Halloween. CB loved Halloween and she loved shelling out candy to the local kids. She told her mom that she was staying home that night and would look forward to her mom stopping by with her little brother in costume. Unfortunately she never spoke with her again and did not make it over that night to see her.
TH - October 31, 2005
On the day of October 31, 2005, TH is working her Monday at AutoTrader and has an appointment at salvage yard with SA to take photo of his sister's van.
OCTOBER 31 timeline detailed on reddit (angieb15) with many great links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4kvwfc/october_31_2005_timeline/
November 3, 2005
At approximately 8:30 am, CB’s grandmother had gone upstairs and knocked on the door to wake CB, and she did not answer (CB’s lived in an apartment of the upstairs and her grandmother lived downstairs). A few minutes later an unknown female alerted CB’s grandmother that CB may be dead. The grandmother went upstairs where she found CB sitting on the floor, leaning against the stereo, and unresponsive.
MSCO was contacted and responded. Conversations between MCSO and CB’s family immediately ensued and her family was told she had OD’d.
The family of course was devastated. MCSO immediately discussed that they would assist the family with her funeral arrangements. The family paid for CB’s funeral; however, even before CB's body was removed from her apartment, MCSO told the family that they should have her cremated. They advised the family that an autopsy would be done immediately and that they would help with the arrangements for cremation.
The autopsy was completed Nov 4th, and CB’s funeral was Nov 8th.
Her family remembers placing her in the back of the hurst shortly after 1pm on Nov 8th, where she was taken to be cremated. It took 3 weeks for her cremains to be returned to the family.
CB’s family questioned her death a few times to LE and were told that she was a drug addict and to get over it and that finding her killer was virtually impossible. LE never investigated CB's suspicious drug death! MSCO stated in the news article that the case was still open.
At approximately 5:00 pm, Teresa Halbach is reported missing.
Teresa Halbach RAV4 is listed as in custody November 3, 2005 (no time listed on report - source link page 3):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf
At 6:34 pm, approximately 2 1/5 hours after TH missing person report was filed, SA was documented as TH murder suspect (NOVEMBER 3/05 @ 18:34 hours - Global Subject Activity Report).
Dave Remiker - report shows that he was not working November 3, 2005:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=1032
This is where I would love to see CB's investigation paperwork, as DR says he was on this case. But he seems to be MIA that day, and then was recorded as being involved in SA case.
At 10:00 pm the breaking news of TH missing on WBAY:
http://wbay.com/2016/01/07/video-nov-3-2005-teresa-halbach-is-missing/
November 4, 2005
Because MSCO had removed the same coroner that was walled off from SA case, CB was driven 2 hours drive to Waukesha County Morgue. Her autopsy was done by Debra P Kakatch, MD Forensic Pathologist, and TH, Forensic Autopsy Assistant.
This autopsy was done Nov 4th 2005. The Autopsy report shows her organs were normal -- that is not indicative to someone who is a “druggie” -- along with the low numbers for methadone & alcohol.
What is questionable is the mention of markings and their location, that she was more apt to have died from suffocation/strangulation rather then OD.
During the autopsy, tissues and samples were taken and stored, and also there was a DNA card made for her.
(NOTE: the coroner DK had contacted CB's family daily, always saying how sorry she was. Her last day calling, she called x3, with the last conversation being that she was removed from the case, and she stopped contacting the family.)
10:00 am Pam Sturm sees news featuring TH (page 197):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=197
Between 3:10 - 7:25 pm, RH speaks with LE 22 times (I am not posting the link to spread sheet but you all I’m sure are aware).
At 4:00 pm, DaveB & SarahB arrive at salvage yard. They speak with SA and leave a missing person flyer (page 214):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-1-2007Feb12.pdf#page=214
Between 7:30 - 8:00 pm, SA brother sees headlights near the pit while leaving for Crivitz and calls SA (see report):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Interview-Report-2005Nov05.pdf
Timeline of activity Nov 4, 2005 for TH missing person case:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4kwcwi/november_4_2005_timeline/
When you go back and look at CB court documents, the following stands out:
Nov 8 2005, motion and order of dismissal, ordering the action dismissed without prejudice because the defendant is deceased (that is 5 days after she died, that is the very day of her funeral, that is the very day the supposed bones were found on the salvage yard).
In none of CB's other court documents is it logged that she was deceased until the following year, and 2 documents actually still don’t show her as deceased.
Have I gotten your attention yet?
[–][deleted]
Yes, after 11 months on this forum, you have gotten my attention like none other.
[–]bashdotexe
"Shock and Horror" indeed if CB turns out to be a part of this. Her family already had funeral arrangements but MTSO insisted on taking care of it for them? While also not investigating after the autopsy showed strangulation?
This has my attention for sure.
[–]missingtruth
Yes, you have my attention. Great post of connections. Scary...
[–]August141981[S]
thank you and its frightening
[–]Jayyouung
The CB/TH theory has been dismissed so many times but there are definitely some links between the two. Great post that will keep me thinking.
[–]SilkyBeesKnees
You're right! November 3, 2005 was a red letter day for Manitowoc. The CB connection is a weird one. I trust Zellner to prove Avery's innocence but will we ever have the whole story? Excellent post.
[–]rachabe
Wow. Excellent post, OP.
permalinkembedsavegive award
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
You've got my attention! The CB connection has always bugged me! I believe there is a connection but can't quite put the puzzle pieces together. Only things I can think of is they used her for her bones AND/OR they used her as a stand in for the bogus Zipperer appt. Great post!
[–]August141981[S]
I assure you CB did not look like the photo in the news article. The photo her mom was holding was of her a few years younger. Yes she resembled the photo somewhat but that was not her look when she died
[–]foghaze
I can confirm this. I've seen the pic too. They looked nothing alike anymore and she could not have pulled off posing as Teresa. So I hope those who are leaning in this direction can see how that scenario would be impossible.
FYI the markings on her throat are a bit suspicious but after further research seem to be common. I really don't know what to think about her connection, if there is one, anymore. I'm leaning more to no connection TBH.
[–]August141981[S]
Thank you fog and I appreciate your input as always.
[–]foghaze
Thank you fog and I appreciate your input as always.
Your welcome. One thing I do find strange is how she was taken to the coroner in Waukesha and how they made her get an autopsy when none was needed. It's odd how they immediately called it an overdose when they couldn't have actually known this. The coroner she was taken to was connected with another corrupt cop case that had recently happened as well in another county but he testified for the defense. It's pretty interesting because a cop shot this guy in the head and some of the cranial pieces were missing according to him. They were apparently on the ground but he claims he never got them. Crazy huh? You can kinda see where I might be going with that. I will get that info to you when I have the chance.
Also when I look at the very little amount of drugs in her system compared to the BAC level I cannot see how she died but I think it's possible had she never taken methadone before. I'm no expert at all but the levels of methadone in her system appear very low. However, if this is coupled with alcohol it does make a difference. I do suspect that it's possible she got it from LE.
The deeper I dig the more it looks like the entire state is corrupt.
[–]August141981[S]
mb jr is who you are referring?
yes another interesting case
[–]foghaze
mb jr is who you are referring?
I can't remember the names or details. It was a while back when I researched all this but it was a corrupt cop case where he pulled a guy over who was supposed to be in court testifying against him in a few hours. Something like that. The cop straight up killed him for no reason at all at close range. He was unarmed.
[–]August141981[S]
this one foghaze?
http://michaelbell.info/MEReport.html
[–]foghaze
Yes that's the one
[–]stateurname
Did you have a previous post about a certain guy who had a court date schedule for a certain time? Cant recall, but CB's friend at the time?
[–]August141981[S]
If you are referring to first name rhymes with Mary you quite likely read my posts here
https://m.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/53o8cu/them_dry_bones/?ref=search_posts
[–]stateurname
Yes! I believe it is, would be from MC or from different area? Just seeing if there was a link with him and any others in the area.
Out of all this mess, I hope the friends around CB have been able to get clean and out of the area.
[–]August141981[S]
I believe we will see change, this is a lot for many of them. Some have, some are and hope others will find the strength to direct themselves in positive ways
[–]foghaze
Did you have a previous post about a certain guy who had a court date schedule for a certain time? Cant recall, but CB's friend at the time?
Yes his name was G. Kreie. According to her family they weren't really friends. They didn't even know who he is but for some reason, MTSO ordered her to stay away from him.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4lkfbv/the_curious_case_of_boutwell_kreie/
[–]solunaView
Have you found any maternal relatives that could link CB and TH? Even distantly?
[–]ControlOptional
I looked back all the way to ancestors several generations and found nothing
[–]solunaView
Yeah I know a few people did. Thanks. Never hurts to ask new eyes I figured. :) Still not discounting this. The other thing is with only 7 loci matching the odds in the regular population are much better like in the hundreds possibly.
The other thing is we don't know if LE would out and out fake the mtDNA testing. SC has spit on her hands already how much of a leap would it be to just fake a test or three?
[–]August141981[S]
I use to work with a retired forensic guy who had a routine. One day I mentioned his habits to him and that is when I found out his previous work was. In the 5 or so years I worked with him NOT ONCE did he cough in his hands.
SC was a nervous nitty for a reason.
[–]dark-dare
Its called dry labbing and it is more common than you think in state run labs.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes maternal, yes related and distant on fathers side Edit: CB father related to TH father
[–]no_idea_4_names
So that wouldn't count towards mtdna then would it? Thought that was all through the mothers side? Grewt post though OP I'm agog as 2 gogs
[–]August141981[S]
mtdna means nothing! just more fluff on the prosecution side of things.
The reality is that there is plenty of lies and deceit that was created and executed by the prosecution and the thugs.
[–]SBRH33
That is an interesting theory.
[–]IvanaVodka
I have also thought they might have used CB's bones. This case is so messed up it's infuriating!
[–]dark-dare
*A few minutes later an unknown female alerted CB’s grandmother that CB may be dead the grandmother went upstairs where she found CB sitting on the floor leaning against the stereo and unresponsive. *
WOAH WTF Do you have any further information, where did this come from?
[–]August141981[S]
WOAH WTF Do you have any further information, where did this come from?
Frightening isn't it...I've been deep deep down in the CB rabbit hole, all the fluff that KK made in regards to DNA and such is just that. This Information and more has been turned over to proper authority and I can't wait for that ship to sink and those responsible for this heinous crime are made accountable
They framed them, they shamed them and they stole their lives.
I was sickened by what they did to SA x2. I was horrified by what they did to BD. I'm frightened by what they did to CB. These are people who are supposed to be looking after "we the people" and for decades they've only been looking after themselves. it's disgusting
[–]dark-dare
I cannot publish what I am thinking, Gobbsmacked!
[–]August141981[S]
The weight we carry with the information we gather! I'm at the point I just want it all to come out and those 2 innocent men released
[–][deleted]
[deleted]
[–]August141981[S]
Perhaps KK
I mean he had a drug problem, obvious narcissistic behaviour, money problems, failed marriage, rehab and the list goes on. The kind that really isn't going to turn down an opportunity.
My read is he might just not have gotten the memo at rehab and prefers the messed up kind of behaviour.
I don't know why someone like him has left his fb wide open for the world to see. Is that part of his messed up behaviour or is it KZ. She's brilliant
[–]Lolabird61
You don't say. Who? KK?
[–]dark-dare
I'm there with no information, write a book, get it all out.
[–]dark-dare
Any WTF revelations to do with the boyfriend, who skipped jail the day before CB died, who was thought to be an informant? Who is the woman??? WB popped to mind, also the dispatcher was a neighbor!
Mind blowen
[–]August141981[S]
He was not a boyfriend, I have been told either he or someone else he associated with were also seen outside her home the day she was found deceased
He should have never been given a huber if you go back thru his records you will see he didn't qualify for such a privilege but be prepared to sort thru it all his records look like GA it's crazy
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
And the non boyfriend of CB that your referring to GK is FB friends w/ WB, he was also put back in the slammer soon after MAM came out.
[–]August141981[S]
He has an interesting group of friends and connections. He lost his father young, seems the loss of his sister crushed him. He didn't seem to get a great response on his last couple posts on fb
[–]angieb15
Can you say where you got all the details? Because some of this is previously unknown and fascinating...
[–]August141981[S]
Direct connections to CB and it's both fascinating and frightening thru many months and tons of reading and telephone conversations. Working with some really great thinkers. I surely couldn't have gathered all on my own but was encouraged to post this here and hope to gather further thoughts and information
[–][deleted]
I am interested in her sitting in the car with LE and not telling them what they wanted to hear. What did they want to hear?
[–]August141981[S]
It is believed that DEA was there at the meeting as well I am convinced that CB knew something or was being pressured for something and refused to play the game or was silenced
I believe from my information gathered that this is a case of 1 dead 1 missing and 2 framed
[–][deleted]
Are you implying something with "one dead and one missing" rather than two dead?
[–]August141981[S]
One is dead and one is missing I'm not implying anything CB is confirmed and documented as deceased TH is reported missing, there is no proof of rape/torture/mutilation or murder no body fluid/blood no damage to the bed where supposed rape took place. Heck car-char-ski the officer I refer as "dopey" sat on the very bed of the crime scene and took notes while the other 2 idiots packed up the evidence they just planted.
And it all started with a sweaty narcissistic story teller, and we're all still rooting searching for the murderer that we were told about
[–]stateurname
Whaat? you are the Queen of times. OP is great, you are still the queen of time.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes indeed she is I use her timelines daily to check my information. There are many amazing people here who spend a lot of time sifting thru and sorting
[–]stateurname
Your OP is so good. If you are in the area, you have to think vacation for a while.
[–]August141981[S]
I don't live in USA but certainly hope to one day meet CB family, a bond is created now and no matter the outcome her death needs to be investigated by trusted authorities
[–]angieb15
Lol, thanks. I've never heard a lot of this detail about CB.
[–]seekingtruthforgood
If you haven't already read this, you may find this older post (x-post) and its comments fascinating
https://np.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4aboty/is_this_the_doctor_that_supplied_the_methadone/
[–]August141981[S]
CB was found dead the morning of Nov 3rd its listed on her autopsy report as is the date of her autopsy being Nov 4. It's been confirmed and report has been turned over to team Zellner months ago.
[–]Thesnakesate
Really? Hummm, well that's funny.....the call into dispatch!! AC calls in and inqrires about a dead girl found and asking if it's our girl from Cal. County that was missing (TH), dispatch says the girl (CB) was found that morning, so I'm assuming it is THURSDAY! because TH wasn't declared missing til 11/3 PM!! Fishy fishay!
[–]August141981[S]
There was an unknown/unnamed female there when CB was found but there were others that left in the night.
[–]SBRH33
I hope to hear much more about this. I have quietly kept the CB thought s to myself for a long time.
Most would consider it too far fetched of a plot. I personally really dont think it is.
These guys (MTSO) were up against a real tough wall. It was all hands on deck.
[–]covertoperations911
This is a fantastic post - such incredibly important information. I can't thank you enough for sharing all of it with us and for giving the Boutwell family a voice. The revelations about the autopsy and the cremation are astounding.
Boutwell wasn't simply being processed through the courts, she was on the radar of the federal security services - and for reasons that remain unknown even today.
According to the information you've gathered, a number of people were present in and around Boutwell's residence on Nov. 2 and Nov. 3. There were the unidentified persons who "left in the night" on Nov. 2. The following day, Kreis or an alleged associate is seen outside her home. Later, Boutwell's grandmother is told that she "may be dead" by an unidentified female. What was going on at her house that night?
I'm absolutely floored. Something evil was happening in this county in October-November 2005.
[–]August141981[S]
thank you
Something evil has been happening there for decades.
She was a young girl who had friends over that is not out of the ordinary but what happened to her and what led up to her death is not ordinary and should absolutely be investigated.
If we allow fear of speaking up and speaking out prevent us from exposing truth!
Then evil wins
[–]lilypadbitch
Evil shall not win if those who know the truth come forward and stop the cycle of corruption. It is like a family with a hidden secret and no one wants to exposé it because then everyone will know the sins of the family.
I think there is more secrets that the state of WI does not want the rest of the country to know about but I bet we are all guilty of the same corruption.
Sad to say but this goes all the way to the top of our leadership here in the US.
[–]August141981[S]
your absolutely correct from what I've seen and it isn't just this case there are many others of the like. This doesn't happen unless you have higher ups either covering or involved...when it comes down to it if they have kept these secrets this long they are responsible.
[–][deleted]
After reading this it's starting to feel like the CB case needs its own forum. A lot of info will get lost in this thread so it would be great to have something more in depth where the whole case can be taken apart.
[–]August141981[S]
11 years ago today CB family laid her to rest, amongst all the noice and utter chaos that was thrown into their world. They were kept in a state that they were unable to see everything that was going on outside of their devastation and loss
same MO as Avery case
[–]hopeville
When I first heard about MTSO offering to cremate CB, I figured it was her bones on SA's property. TH's bones are long gone. Unless there was 100% proof that some of them were in fact hers. But I don't recall that being the case.
[–]August141981[S]
I'd love to sing to the world about a girl named CB. but if my information seems vague then I apologize and you are free to ask anything further. Should I be able to further indulge in answering I will. However the people I've spoken with I earned their respect and trust and I would not intentionally jeopardize the bond of friendship. We have created over these past few months. Sometimes things just can't be said for good reason. CB death has never been investigated if you catch my drift.
[–]NewbieDoobieDoo7
Okay so you're saying you personally spoke (over the internet?) with people close to CB and/or the investigation (or lack thereof)? Have you vetted these people to make sure they are who they say they are? I'm not trying to get you to divulge your source(s) but we've been lied to before...
[–]August141981[S]
spoke personally yes as has others & they have been vetted.
Just to be clear I'm not a lone wolf and I'm not a "you heard it hear first kind of person"
Foghaze is one of a small group of people who has been introduced to some of the sources.
It's going to go down like domino's
[–]NewbieDoobieDoo7
So people close to the CB case think that there is a link between her and THs death?
[–]August141981[S]
All who have directly connected ourselves to CB and those who knew her say this. "If CB is not connected to this, Her death requires a complete and trustworthy investigation"
We will all support it and demand it.
[–]lilypadbitch
What was CB doing leading up to October 31, 2005 Prior to October 31/05 - CB had met with LE days prior to her death. Her grandmother had driven her to an out of the place location where they met LE and CB sat in the back seat of LE’s car refusing to tell them what they wanted to hear. She was nervous and anxious about this meeting. August141981
What LE was involved in meeting with her? What was the reason for her to meet with them?
If we knew more about what CB and TH where doing months before Oct. 31st it could tell a lot about what happened to both of them. What was going on in their life prior to Oct 31?
Thank you for posting August141981 I have been waiting to see your insight to the CB connection.
There is some disturbing stuff going on in the shadows of this investigation. This is no coincidence to the connections of events. I believe there is some deep organized criminal activity going on in WI that they are desperately trying to keep hidden.
[–]August141981[S]
Thanks for letting me high jack your thread awhile back. I've dipped my toes in this CB conversation or at least attempted since late Jan early feb and well conversations never ended nicely or no one was just open to discuss. I was thankful for the open conversation.
We can't be 100% certain. So open conversation is really helpful to us all. Fact finding and then creating our own understanding of the case.
[–][deleted]
Did you have a different name then? I was mmh150 or cremation of sam mcgee and I believe I was one of the first, if not the first to bring up CB's coincidental death mid Jan. (I'm not bragging, its just that people shot me down very quickly and I can't recall your involvement in the discussions, for some reason). Your filling in the blanks of this story is fascinating to me, therefore. I have always believed in justice for CB as well as others caught up in this mess.
[–]August141981[S]
yes I used a different name. To be honest I didn't even use reddit in the beginning. I used fb and other venues. I was horrified when I seen previous posts in here from a while back where people were disrespecting my personal space and bombarding comments with my personal full name, who I was, who I associate with. All eager to negatively bash me and discredit the information found. So I stepped away and have recently returned because those I trust encouraged me to do so.
[–]ahhhreallynow
Any known connections between SB or RH or TH on a social level?
[–]August141981[S]
You mean with CB? No one I spoke with was able to connect any of those 3 with CB.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes I believe CB was the target/victim. When you take all the evidence and not just what they chose to use in Avery/Dassey trials. Sort through it and CB always ends up as the most possible. LE and media went immediately to the story line of rape/torture/mutilation and zero news on CB suspicious death. If you don't talk about it just goes away. Or so they thought.
[–]ICUNurse1
I have read this post no less than five times since it was originally posted. There are so many questions I have and know you probably can't answer. But I feel sad that if this indeed true, a young woman was used to disguise corruption and hatred. Although I feel bad for TH's parents, I feel worse for CB's
[–]August141981[S]
Thank you for saying that I have honestly wept many times since a girl named CB opened my eyes to just shocking information.
Everyone's life matters. We all want truth not lies.
[–]Kkman1971
I remember another great former poster that seems to have disappeared as of late. TID was very interested in the CB "coincidence" aspect as well.... it seems there is much more to this story and I am sure we will all learn more about it when KZ lays out the "shock and horror" of this entire enigma. You can check out his last update on it on his website here... more things that make you go "hummmmmm"... TID
[–]August141981[S]
yes Inspiring is also included in our group of thinkers and has sat in conversations as a group and found information on his own as well.
[–]Messwiththebull
Manitowoc LE serial killers?
[–]August141981[S]
that would be an accusation that I'm not prepared to take a stance on however a full investigation of many cases involving said individuals should be happening!
[–]DaveBegotka
These is not the only questionable crimes committed in this area..... this group of people have dirt and blood all over their hands
[–]lilypadbitch
This is so true and IMO has been going on for a long, long, long time. They ALL need to be exposed and held responsible for their crimes.
Time to WAKE UP WISCONSIN! Quit lying and hiding your dirty little secrets.
IMO - Shut the entire State down and start over with people who #1. Not related and #2. They can do their fricken Job with integrity and without hidden agendas.
[–]DaveBegotka
Sounds like the only choice because the corruption goes all the way to the top.
[–]StinkyPetes
ALL of the Citizen's assertions about the German man's arrest records were proven correct by a Redditor who was in direct contact with her and wanted to verify her story.
I've done a lot of work on this...and just a few days ago someone tried to shut me up.
So the German man is exactly who the Citizen says he is re crime...she's terrified for her life.
[-] tmuy99
Was the german man theory ever shut down? If so, why?
[–]StinkyPetes
yes it was shut down. Jacobs "lost' the evidence the Citizen gave them...and all the Citizen's posts on here have been deleted.
The current explanation is that she sees the errors of her ways and says the German man didn't have a gun.
The outbuildings on both properties she had been on with him burned to the ground a week or two AFTER she returned to Manitowoc...he is happily abusing women in Thailand. SO whether or not this man killed TH, he knew her..she SAID He showed the Citizen her car, AND he told the citizen that the photographer was stupid. In order to eliminate him, he should be interviewed...right? The panties in particular of are grave concern. Jacob lost them....they tried to say they were a child's panties, the Citizen disagreed saying they had traces of menstruation on them. There's more much more.
[-] tmuy99
It sounds like the citizen might have been afraid to proceed further. I noticed the comments were deleted.
Was the Germans name ever uncovered? This sounds really sketchy but its going to get cold without a name.
[–]StinkyPetes
Yes everything about him was uncovered and verified, but rules against doxing...so...no names.
[–]primak
this is not correct. The barns burned down in July 2009 when someone else was renting that property. It was about 2 weeks after Brian posted the blog. He never showed the wife the car, stop making stuff up! He spoke about a blue/green suv he alleged saw for sale in that area while he was driving around was what he said at the time. He never said the photographer was stupid, he said the cops and courts were stupid. It is not known if Jacobs lost anything, it is not known what happened to the items turned in to the sheriff. It is not the error of her ways. It was not known about the shots to the head at the time the sheriff was given the items and the authorities never questioned him because he didn't have a gun. Stop writing false information that you have not verified.
[–]StinkyPetes
You can't unring that bell [Brian McCorkle posting on June 23, 2009]. What you're saying is completely contradictory to what she told Brian McCorkle in 09. So, for whatever reason...he didn't have a gun you say? How do you know that? How convenient you say that when there is no way you can know if he did or didn't. All you can say is that he was not known to have a gun. He needs to be investigated.
[–]primak
Brian got some of the details incorrect. The original emails sent to him prove that. He called the woman friendly, the cops and court system in America stupid. Brian never considered him a suspect. No one else ever has, so if he did do it, you could say he must have committed the perfect crime. The original theory was he hit her in the head with the mason's hammer. Everybody has refuted that and stated she was shot with a gun. He did not have any guns or any way to get any guns. By the way, the victim witness assistance program was responsible for notifying the victim when the perpetrator was released from jail. That program was headed by Brenda Petersen, married to the brother of the sheriff, Ken Petersen. Her office was in Griesbach's office. She did not notify the victim in this case.
[-] tmuy99
Primak, do you think the German man killed TH? Why or why not?
[–]primak
I think there was suspicion enough to warrant the police questioning him. The police did not. He had no job, knew nobody there, had no alibi and stated he was in the area along with the other suspicious comments he made at the time. He has a significant mental health history and history of violent and aggressive behavior toward females.
Even if it's possible that he did, nobody cares. Nobody has ever questioned him, nobody is interested in questioning him, nobody ever looked at his history in Germany, nothing. So, it is a moot point.
Even the new legal team has said they are not interested in a new suspect, they are only trying to find legal errors in the cases. They have no interest in investigating. Brian has stated the documentary's purpose is to shed light on the workings of the criminal justice system, not to look for other suspects.
[–]headstilldown
I've never given up on german man. It is clear he had issues..... and he certainly was near enough. The real freaky frosting on top though is the dang psychic link out there that said something about pigs eating her.......
If you look at the listed reason for the fire, I recall it saying the fire was caused by a brooding type lamp that was keeping little pigs warm.
Explore that as you will...... just the messenger.....
Convoluted Brian HEARD the story from the lady in 2007. Somewhere it is written that he was a little bit afraid to post/blog it until 2009. Shortly after he posted it, the large barn on the property where german man was always burning things, playing with girls underwear etc. suddenly burned to the ground. If there happened to be evidence there, well, it disappeared in that fire.
While some people here poopoo the german man's wife's story, I actually do not. Too much of it was indeed backed up with police documentation to be invalid.
And the "pigs" issue.... well, if german man killed her in that barn, and bits of her were still there, and later a new owner raised pigs in that barn..... well, you can put two and two together IF you believe in the statements of a psychic.
[–]RazzBeryllium
There was quite a bit of discussion, and it looks like people were able to track down the wife (or verify her identity) and that of the husband. Most of the specifics in those conversations have been deleted, though.
Then - reportedly verified, but maybe not - the wife created a reddit account and started commenting. She ended up deleting all her comments.
And from what I can glean from comments made by users who were aware of her identity, the wife seems pretty crazy and gets into a bunch of fights on message boards about dog breeding (or something? It was hard to tell when half the comments were deleted). She apparently makes a lot of strange, outlandish statements. Because of that, people started to doubt the "German Man" theory.
[–]rztzz
She hasn't deleted all her comments. Since I'm just finding this post I'm going to comment for future readers. The wife was angry about receiving a dog from Alaska that was ridden with problems and parasites, anybody would be angry. She also seems to delete comments after getting flooded with disbelieving messages from other users - it's sort of a case of shooting the messenger.
BUT she has since mildly backed off her theories, suggesting that the German man had no access to a gun.
[–]AmpLee
In the original Brian thread, some people had tracked down Prima K's email through a k9 forum. I emailed her and have been talking with her ever since. I have forwarded those emails to a couple of members who have been interested in gathering the facts to make an alternative theory. Wildantics85 is one of those members.
[–]rztzz
She refers to him as "the german" probably because the original blog post, written by a guy named Brian in 2009, referred to him as the German and to her as "the civilian". Also I feel like she is now in regret mode and downplaying The German's involvement.
It was all relayed to Manitowoc county sheriff's dept. at the time, they had no interest in following up on anything. And for those who want to condemn the ex wife (she was ex wife #2, there is another ex wife in Germany) the man is not an innocent child, he is a violent and aggressive, controlling person who has abused numerous women, who was deported from the USA twice, who has a long mental health history of violent acts and personality disorders and who set himself on fire in 1998. If anyone had not been too lazy or incompetent to investigate this they would know what kind of person he is.
[–]primak
he's in the WI court system online records, he's on facebook, you won't find any records from Germany online, their laws don't allow it
[–][deleted]
The fact that this article doesn't mention either of the two people involved by name leads me to believe that this is just some fanfiction alternative. Doesn't help that the website looks like it was made on geocities in 1999. Can anybody find "Brian McCorkle"? If he has the proper information, we could investigate it farther.
It was published purposely to not name names because once you know his name you know the wife's name and then it becomes dangerous if there is anything to the suspicions.
[–]primak
It was in a German newspaper in 1998 when he set himself on fire. He is not an American citizen, so what would you expect to be in the news? Mental health info is protected, it is not made public.
I do not understand why you and others are attacking people over this. Believe whatever you like. Research it yourself. There is no reason to be so nasty and call people liars, etc.
[-] jemote
There is a criminal paper trail in Wisconsin and reasonably easy to find out (search the sub for the name). The two arrests discussed in the convolutedbrian post are corroborated by the record. What I find interesting is that in both cases, the presiding official was Patrick Willis, the same in the Avery trial. Also, the prosecutor was Michael Griesback, who was involved in Avery's original trial. And the defense attorney was the same in both cases, Thomas Gerleman.
[–]evelynpeach
I emailed him [Brian McCorkle] a few days ago (that webmaster email listed on his website) and he (or someone) actually wrote back. I pretty much asked him if the story was real - I probably should have asked more questions but didn't want to bombard him. He said : The individuals are real. The arrest and court involvement are real. I believe that the Citizen is reliable. I understand that shortly after I published this post, that the barn burned down. That was verified by a news account, but may be coincidental.
[–]primak
I do not make outlandish claims on dog message boards or anywhere else. I paid about $2,000 for a puppy from a breeder in Arizona and received a sick puppy who ended up having parasites but more importantly long term irritable bowel disorder. I made a complaint about the breeder to the BBB and the breeder enlisted his friends on various dog forms (none of whom knew me) to begin attacking my credibility. When people read internet forums they need to verify who is behind them, but they do not.
I made no outlandish claims about the sick puppy. The dog had chronic irritable bowel disease confirmed in vet reports. I received no support from the breeder, no reimbursement, in fact, the opposite, I was attacked and made to look like a fool. Additionally, those message boards are moderated by friends of the breeder who sold me the puppy and one of them is his own message board on his own website. If you look on ripoffreport.com you can find my original complaint or the Arizona BBB complaint #8229856 in 2010.
All of the information published by Brian McCorkle was also given to law enforcement back in 2006. What was investigated or not investigated, only Manitowoc county sheriff's dept. can say. I do not know.
Furthermore, the information was known by the attorneys on the case who also did not consider the person to be a viable suspect. What investigation they did I also do not know.
Lastly, Brian McCorkle also indicated to me that he no longer believed the person to be a viable suspect due to all forensic reports indicating the victim had been shot in the head and the German did not possess any guns. McCorkle did not publish any later article to express this or remove the original alternate theory. You would have to ask him why, I do not know.
It appears that the dog situation is not connected to McCorkle's blog. But, the dog message boards were used by a different county in Wisconsin to confiscate the dogs 3 years later. If that county plans to use these message board comments in any court action, they will be required to disclose the identities of the posters and I would be allowed to cross examine them. This is the danger of message boards, or gossip boards. People feel secure to sit behind a keyboard and post untruths or venomous comments to fuel attacks on others with no direct information about the person and more and more is added to the story line.
This dog situation will most likely end up in federal court as a civil rights case. I have identified those message board posters and I do not know any of them and none of them ever saw any of my dogs. If you also look further into Alpine K9, you will see there have been other complaints from customers being sold sick dogs, although he tries to threaten people or delete any negative reviews about him (owner of Alpine K9 Mr. Zdenek Blabla) on the internet or available to the public. Most of my comments were deleted or I was blocked from responding to their erroneous and outlandish comments.
Unless others would also like to become party to a lawsuit, I would recommend not publishing any further comments about the mental status of a person unknown to you. I have never been diagnosed or treated for any mental disorder or defect.
To summarize, the man referred to in convoluted brian's blog was never considered to be a viable suspect because the forensic evidence did not link him to the crime. You must remember, that theory was explored in the very early stages of the investigation before all forensics were completed and subsequently abandoned when forensic reports were completed.
Secondly, I believe the dog situation has been explained above. These message board comments have been repeatedly taken out of context, added to, embellished and what was originally a simple BBB complaint has been, over the years, spun into a huge web of untruths, accusations and defamation ultimately which will lead to a federal civil rights lawsuit.
[–]thismisspage[S]
Hi, thanks for responding. Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your dog situation - anything about harming animals breaks my heart and my friend has had a similar situation buying a horse and I've seen some horrible comments about her so I know how emotive and unfair that whole world can be.
I was really interested in your story, not necessarily as a solution to the Avery mystery but as context for how badly the police in this town handled such serious and scary crimes. I think it is very telling that the defence team have not used this to defend Steven, although perhaps this was a matter of prioritising based on what they had access to?
I have so many questions about your personal thoughts on your own story, completely separate from Steven or Teresa, I don't want to be disrespectful so I understand if you would rather not comment - but do you think, given the items you found, that some kind of crime occurred?
[–]primak
I did believe so at the time which is why I went to the sheriff. I was new to the state and did not know the history of Manitowoc county and the Averys. After delving into this case again in 2011 and after speaking to Dassey's attorney about my suspicions I was harassed (had moved to WI again in late 2010, but in different yet close county to Manitowoc) and after requesting records from Manitowoc county in 2012 I was accused of animal neglect in early 2013. Someone had been trailing me online since Aug 2011 and I have evidence of that. I also have evidence that the animal charges were unfounded. I ran out of money and also did not find an attorney who was not scared off.
I will also confidently state that if the Avery Dassey cases appalled you, the dog case would appall you equally if not even more. I would also agree with the poster who wrote, never go to Wisconsin. The state has a pattern of people retaining positions of authority or power for lengthy periods of time. This practice leads to virtually no oversight and breeds corruption, authorities covering for one another, developing personal relationships with judges, etc. and makes it easy for a person to be wrongly accused with the cooperation of all of those in power to do it.
I can confidently make the statement, however, that there are cases where cops fabricate or plant evidence and we have all seen instances of this. Evidence was fabricated in the dog situation and yes there is documentation to prove that and to prove they embellished or outright lied. Documents from verifiable and reliable sources. Does this mean they did that in the Avery Dassey cases? I do not know. That is precisely what people are trying to prove.
[–]primak
Brian's blog is incorrect. He said he drove by a junk yard while driving to the beach. I do not know what day he drove there, some day that week. He did not say any photographer was stupid or anything about a photographer. He said a woman stopped and he did not know what she wanted. He said she was friendly. The stupid was referring to police and courts in WI.
[–]StinkyPetes
One minute there was a woman, the next minute he never met a woman....and mildly insane man thinks cops in WI are stupid. Excellent.
[–]primak
Whether or not there was a woman is no evidence it was the woman who was a murder victim. And all of you think the cops in WI are stupid. And he was not directing that at WI cops in particular, but the entire USA. People from Europe find the amount of violent crime, especially murder, astounding in the USA.
[–]StinkyPetes
And I find the dramatic about face on this man to be...dramatic.
First he's an insane clothing cutting maniac in and out of mental facilities, and them I'm expected to think his take on American violence to be useful?
At this point, consider there is a hole...stop digging it deeper. The cops in Manitowoc are never going to win any intelligence awards. Ever.
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/
I cannot being to imagine what possible reason anyone would have for flip flopping so dramatically on this. Well, I can, but it would be impolite to speculate.
[–]primak
People have been trying to promote this conspiracy theory for a long time, but where is the evidence connecting him to this crime? There is now evidence that was entered against Avery that was never available to the public before, short of someone paying for all of these documents.
Next, with your theory why would police let a man like that go free if they knew he was the killer? I do not see any answers to that. What would prevent him from killing another woman in the same way? Nothing. And who would the police frame for that one?
Seeing actual evidence submitted against Steven Avery is the answer to your question, along with the FACT that Dassey's attorney came across the same blog five years ago and found no evidence to connect any German man to this crime.
Police reports are not secret information. If any of the numerous attorneys on these two cases had found any evidence of connecting the German man to this murder via the yellow underwear or anything else, pretty sure they would have done it long ago.
The only thing dramatic is your refusal to let go of this particular conspiracy theory that you provide no evidence to support. I examine possibilities and dismiss them based on process of elimination by examination of fact. It's called analytical reasoning. You seem to have an issue admitting you could be wrong, whereas I do not have an issue with that.
Lastly, you are also wrong about the cops in Manitowoc never going to win any intelligence awards. They already have received awards for this case.
[–]StinkyPetes
I think the bipolar nature of the posts of the personS using the handle primak....should be quite enough..
Didn't you say Jacobs destroyed/lost the evidence you gave him?
I think you've probably talked a bit too much.
"I examine possibilities and dismiss them based on process of elimination by examination of fact. It's called analytical reasoning. You seem to have an issue admitting you could be wrong, whereas I do not have an issue with that."
Really? Seriously? Who the hell are you kidding. You wrote that and "awards for this case" in the same post.
Kratz?
[–]primak
It is not known what Jacobs did with the items given him. You keep referring to it as evidence, but you do not not that it was evidence of anything, let alone this murder. I suggest you ask Jacobs yourself.
[–]StinkyPetes
Suddenly you don't know? Have you forgotten you previously posted that the cops told you they lost it?
[–]primak
That is not correct, it was posted that Jacobs lost his memory of a meeting, not lost anything else.
[–]StinkyPetes
LOL do explain, what is the difference?
[–]primak
if you think these guys are innocent then don't waste your time chasing a dead end and look for the real killer(s)
Sorry I have never had the luxury of having all case evidence at my disposal and theories have to be altered based on the evidence, which we only have in bits and pieces and scattered on various websites.
Maybe if someone had provided me with all the evidence documents years ago all at once I would have figured it out.
It looks as if you are not here to contribute anything useful to discussion but merely as a troll. So what's your stake in this? To prevent any truth from coming out by steering people in the wrong direction?
[–]StinkyPetes
"So what's your stake in this? To prevent any truth from coming out by steering people in the wrong direction?"
Yes, that's it, that's the ticket...whoever did this...IS going to get caught. Zellner does not take cases to get guilty people off.
That being said, I wonder where the original poster PrimaK is?
[–]primak
All of these alternate theories have too many holes to be plausible. I'm sticking with the Avery is guilty theory until there is some hard proof like scientific evidence showing any blood, DNA, etc. was planted.
The man with the ax was Andres Martinez and his sentence for that crime was vacated in 2008. The court failed to inform him that pleading guilty and being convicted would subject him to deportation to Cuba, so they had to release him. He cannot be tried for the same crime twice.
[-] kitthekat
IMO a random killing (like in the article)/serial killer passing through the area is the only scenario that fits the police-framing theory. In such a small town, any details about the murder being by known-person would have surfaced publicly by now. And while the police might have moved the corpse and planted evidence, they certainly weren't the killers.
The FBI traces the routes of known serial killers through different states and matches them to unsolved murders all the time. While the TH isn't considered unsolved, I'm surprised no one has tried this!
Where does the article say that the husband was known by TH? It appears to talk about the husband committing a random murder, which is exactly what I said seems most plausible
In criminology, a known person is someone who has a connection to the victim that goes beyond the scope of the planning of, or commission of, the crime. As in: a co-worker, a spouse, a family member. A single, RANDOM interaction with a person that instigated or led to the crime is considered a RANDOM connection. The terms don't necessarily make common sense, but they fit within the definitions of psychology.
So again - not really.
At least you went about trying to state your argument in a mature way, without trying to sound like a condescending know-it-all! Oh, wait.
Source: psych degree, interned in criminal psychology
Spurious links in the case
By hollieluluboo, TickTockManitowoc
February 22, 2017
Just a thought because a link to this post on the MaM sub popped up in my facebook feed in relation to KK's appearance for a TV interview where he apparently says at some point they thought TH had been taken to Chicago...unrelated to this but thought it was an interesting suggestion.
In the blurb of that post in MaM - it says the 'german' lived at Glen's Bar and Grill in Manitowoc.
[–][deleted]
The building that once housed Glenn's Bar and Grill is gone.
https://manitowoctavernhistory.org/835-s-15th-st-new-location/
[–]s_wardy_s
Is this the bar where "the club" used to meet? The style looks identical to the place psychic Nova says that TH was held. Here's Nova's drawing:
https://ponto0.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_20160218_225816.jpg
And the old bar:
http://manitowoctavernhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/glennswinter2010.jpg
EDIT: She even has a note on her drawing saying "maybe a balcony" and in the picture we cleary see a balcony.
[-] magiclougie
Nova the psychic noted on her drawing that the place where the killers met to plan the murder of Teresa Halbach and the framing of Steven Avery might have had a second floor balcony. And, according to Convoluted Brian:
"One night she [the German's wife] noted a second floor balcony door was open. She entered the home and secured the door. After that she discovered an opened closet at the base of the stairs with a pair of women’s jeans, a top, and a pillowcase stained with red stains."
[–]Colorado_love
You're the only other person I've seen mention Nova.
Her video made the hair on my neck stand up. And I'm not usually one who believes in psychics, but there's something about her video that rings true.
[–]s_wardy_s
If Glenn's Bar is the place they planned the murder as Nova eluded to, and there was evidence there, then it's all gone after the place was demolished in 2010.
What if she is even partly correct about what went down. Say RH (or ST) had a fight with TH and knocked her unconscious, and some unsavoury people got involved and did the blackmailing to make him plant shit.
[–]s_wardy_s
Some other weird shit: google Glenn's Bar Manitowoc, and apparently it was the place to celebrate the Rotary Club. And Rotary was born from the Freemasons. Freemasons are normally made up of local politicians, law, and upstanding professionals. Are these people referred to as "the club" or the people meeting to decide the fate of TH?
[–]hollieluluboo[S]
'The Club' is the Eagles, which is a branch of Freemasonry called Phoenixmasonry. It is apparently where sometimes there would be adult 'parties' (I'll leave that to your imagination. TH is alleged to have attended some of these parties, either as a participant or photographer - not sure which).
[-] TheMoonIsOurMission
The German man has already been found, we know his name from extensive research along with others from this sub. He's been deported from the US and is believed to be living in Thailand at the moment. The officer involved in this instance was deputy Jacobs, I think that should be looked into.
[–][deleted]
I've shared with SA's legal team that we have this info but I feel strongly that it would be inappropriate to share individual's personal information in such a public forum.
The source for this information posted on one of my comments. I won't post her user name but she put up a couple of walls of text that should be easy enough to find.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/
[-] TheMoonIsOurMission
We know his name. "The citizen" has recently been interviewed by someone here on reddit. Deputy Jacobs, the officer who took the report, needs to be investigated.
[–][deleted]
primak is "the citizen" from the story. I have done a good amount of digging and believe that she is who she says she is. For obvious reasons, I cannot corroborate most of the facts in her story, but I would be interested in having law enforcement look into it.
[–]OopsISed2Mch
Has anyone had any luck finding the police report that "citizen" gave that November? Edit: Yes, it has been located. The real question is what became of the evidence handed over that night.
[–]OopsISed2Mch
It's available through public records searches. Since it involves personally identifying info of those people, though, I don't feel comfortable distributing it. Evidence was turned over to police though and I never found any reference to follow up on it.
I don't believe in Psychic but...
By CaseFilesReviewer, TickTockManitowoc
November 19, 2017
Here's the deal, a friend of mine who was a Homicide Detective, once hired a psychic to help solve a case just for giggles & kicks. Neither he nor I believe in psychics but she did end up solving the case thereby making it difficult for me to just dismiss physic vision.
Last year, someone shared a picture a physic did after getting a vision on where TH was taken:
https://novasensitiva.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_20160218_225816.jpg
Here is the link to the psychic's blog:
https://novasensitiva.com/2016/02/14/psychic-reading-making-a-murderer/amp/
I went nuts trying to find anything that looked close, within the radius of the last ping from TH's phone.
Take a look at 44° 2'13.30"N, 87°57'25.07"W. That location, on 151, mapped out to distance from tower of TH's phone's last ping.
That is the location I noticed the white Jeep and at that location has a long white barn.
https://imgur.com/XVvNzHO
Today, while trying to make a connection to the Jeep on 151, I've been running through tax maps to determine ownership of every address ST had used. To my surprise, more like shock, one of the addresses seemed to match up with the Psychic's vision.
Knowing names & addresses can not be posted and I feel it inappropriate to post GPS positions to a home; I will providing a GPS position (44° 9'38.43"N, 87°36'22.01"W) that is the area, in the event anyone wants to do a compare. Please note, it likely is little more than coincidental but I do feel it's worth sharing.
The profile of both the barn & home are uncanny. The barn is set back from the house whereby mamma' wouldn't even know whose back there (plus, she was in the hospital at the time).
[–]Lord-CATalog
Now the question is: Who does this property belong to?
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
ST's mom ;)
BTW - If you search the tax maps, you will find the owner information. Additionally, if you have access to Intelius you will find it's an address he had used.
Post your google coordinates into google earth and go back to 2005, there's not much there on that block of land.
Though let me share with you a post I wrote 8 months ago on this subject which pretty closely identifies the right building:
Reddit post from March 2017
Just thought I'd post this cause it's a little more than weird. There have been a couple of posts put up on Reddit that have ties to a video by psychic Nova.
One post refers to a picture of an unsavoury man standing next to KK (image below).
Another post refers to an old pub (Glenn's Bar) in Manitowoc,
For those who don't know, Nova posted the video over a year ago (February 14, 2016), and some of the things she says have already started to make sense, such as she says that many phone calls were made on Nov 4, and we know RH received 22 calls from one number that day.
For those who haven't watched her video, here is a summary of what she says:
Two people were involved.
TH left Avery and then got a call from someone she wasn't happy with, and the caller lured her somewhere.
TH knew the person who killed her and referred to him as my... and he was in the documentary.
Her killer wore a white shirt and black leather jacket. This man was between 30 and 40, he had long face, big forehead, short hair with receding hairline, little eyes. He was an aggressive and troubled person. They argued and he punched her, they fought, and she was unconscious.
TH was held captive in a place like a big shelter or garage, pretty long, dark, isolated, it was kinda empty, wet, and cold. The building seemed to have a pointed roof and big entrance gate.
The second man was unknown to Teresa, and he was older, an important person of authority. He wore black clothes, his hands were at his waist (like if this was a trait of his usual body language), and he was blackmailing and threatening the first man so he would follow his orders.
She says this was a man knew getting rid of TH would free him of all his troubles. She says this man was an expert who knew how to get rid of the body and set up SA.
There was also someone very high up in politics involved.
Planning took place in large double story light-colored house*, where a few people came together to discuss it.
She says there is some paper evidence in a house. She also says keys would be found in that house.
There is lots of talking on phones that day, and there would be phone records to prove that many calls were made.
TH was shot at night on 10/31 between 11 pm and 1 am. The body was burned on 11/4. (Same prediction as Sikikey.)
There were many people seen in the documentary that knew about the cover-up.
Google Glenn's bar Manitowoc -- apparently it was the place to celebrate the Rotary Club. And Rotary was born from the Freemasons. Freemasons are normally made up of local politicians, law, and upstanding professionals. Are these people referred to as "the club" or the people meeting to decide the fate of TH?
* Is this the bar where "the club" used to meet? The building looks identical to the place psychic Nova says that TH was held.
Here's Nova's drawing and notice the drawing on the right side of a double story house:
And the old bar:
She even has a note on her drawing saying "maybe a balcony," and in the picture we clearly see a balcony. Plus her notes talk about a place of meeting (Rotary Club and local politicians and police top brass).
By the way, Glenn's Bar was demolished in 2010.
Scott Tadych's place of work, Wisconsin Aluminum Foundry, is one or two blocks away.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S
The 05' imaging is really blurry, there is something there and I can just make out the darker field area but I really can't tell if the barn is just a lighter square in where it shows in the later pictures.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
One of u two PM me! I don’t do maps well. It’s gotta be spelled out for me. I wanna fall off the chair too!!
[–]Lord-CATalog
Just copy the coordinates into google maps and voila. No beverages or you risk to damage your keyboard!
[–][deleted]
The building in question is a horse barn, the fenced area surrounding it is a horse pen. This image is a screenshot from the Manitowoc County GIS website. Use the oblique images feature to see for yourself.
https://imgur.com/piA9bxr
http://webmap2.manitowoc-county.com/EasyAccess/
[–]seekingtruthforgood
The even creepier one, for me anyway, is the address shown for where he is living right now... that's the one that makes me feel completely creeped out... I wonder whether it's real or somehow cross referenced by mistake because of the MAM threads in social media... 44 15’00.18” N 87 39’24.67” W
[–]thebeacon32
The white barn in the back has the doors on the long side of the building instead of on the end like the psychic's drawing, but still similar. I’m not seeing narrow windows on my view unless those are running along top of the doors?
Seven comma eight - []
It does not fit 100%... but i think the house and the barn fit better than her description of the 2 men.... I think they don't fit BoD or ST at all 🤔
[–]ziggymissy
I would swear the psychic is talking about ST (Scott Tadych) and TK (Tom Kocourek)?
[–]pdent
Can someone please link me to the actual photo? I can't access maps. However this was something I posted about last year.
Very keen to see this property.
Good post.
[–]thebeacon32
Look at the link above by the user who “knows” - it’s a White House with a black roof, with a white barn with green roof behind it. ETA: it looks like that link was removed. I don’t think we can link to the actual image
ETA: go to instant street view dot com
[–]skippymofo
Do we have a picture around 2005? ST lived sometimes by his mother end of 1990´ (according to the Court reports). I am pretty sure KZ tweet about abusive women included his mother.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
There were some in from 05' via Google Earth history but nothing for the timeframe. So, no teal car :( I was going to check to see if anyone else had a satellite in the area but it's unlikely as the closes pass over there seems to be 11/11/2005.
[–]plowbabe
It would be great if you reviewed Nova's thoughts and that gal Amy's thoughts to see what two different psychics have said and to see if it all jives. This is out of my ability to pay that close attention.
[–]MMonroe54
Can someone post initials -- or a hint -- of who lived at CL (initials for name of street)? If I ever knew, I've forgotten.
[–][deleted]
Her son visited her when she was in the hospital.
[–]CaseFilesReviewer[S]
The location, that seems to match psychic reading, is that of his mom's. I stumbled on it, when searching out all the addresses he had used.
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
He lived there, it’s the mother that was in the hospital home they are talking about.
[–][deleted]
She is the owner of the property, the adjacent properties are also owned by Tadych family members. This is a desirable neighborhood, which coincidentally is very close to where Penny B was attacked on the beach just north of Two Rivers.
[–]knowfere
Here's a screenshot of the google maps image of the above noted coordinates. Looking eerily like the drawing by the psychic.
[–]cardiacarrest1965
Definitely an interesting find. There are some previous posts regarding the psychic drawing. I have always thought the rental house in Maribel where the German stayed also fit the bill. There were a barn and outbuildings on the property that mysteriously burned to the ground (see image below).
From Google Maps:
https://i.imgur.com/GbcOXSS.jpg
[-] magiclougie
The images below of the Maribel property that Mrs. German rented show it before and after the buildings were burned to the ground (the Google street view, dated October 2008, also shows the outbuildings on the farm).
Maybe the barn that burned down on the German's rental property was for a pig farm (example of a pig farm building in the image below).
An alternate theory continued [Spoilers]
By [deleted], MakingaMurderer
December 30, 2015
Please consider this only as a theory with a very critical eye and please do let me know your thoughts. However, DO NOT USE ANY OF THIS INFORMATION TO HARASS OR BADGER ANYONE INVOLVED!! I've put this together because the logical question that would need to be answered if SA is indeed innocent is "if not SA, then who?" I'm not certain of SA's innocence, but I feel that TH's family deserves a better answer than what was presented at trial.
Big ups to u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 for finding the court records to corroborate some facts in http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html and u/AmpLee for reaching out to the citizen.
I've gone ahead and pulled together some additional info to support an alternate theory of the crime. It fits fairly well with the facts that were presented during the trial, but relies heavily on the claims that "the citizen" from Brian's blog post makes. However, if they are true, they present a plausible version of events that makes every bit as much sense as the nonsense to which Brendan Dassey "confessed".
Facts and less disputed evidence from trial:
Manitowoc County was on the hook for $36 million if they were found liable in SA's civil suit because insurers were balking on payment given the alleged misconduct of the DA and sheriff's office
On November 2nd, a third party deleted voice messages from TH's voicemail
On November 3rd, a sheriff's deputy calls in TH's plates with a vehicle description
TH was killed and her body burned between 10/31 and 11/5
TH's Rav4 was found on SA's lot 11/5
TH's remains were found in two or three piles, two relatively close to SA's trailer and another roughly 2,000 ft SW of the pit in the quarry though it’s unclear that they certainly belonged to TH
TH's skull had what appeared to the forensic examiner to be 2 .22 bullet holes
Discussion of an alternative story
I have heard from "the citizen" in Brian's blog story, and she claims that she was his original source. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve her, but I am confident that she is the person listed in the court documents that u/EmilyLouiseChurch1 found. I will be sure to call out what I've corroborated separately (like this) from now on. She provides the following version of events somewhat consistent with what she told Brian (I can discuss privately why I’m confident this person is indeed the citizen):
The week of October 31st 2005, the citizen’s husband at the time, now ex-, "the husband", was acting strangely, cutting the tags from her clothing and cutting her clothing apart. Their relationship became strained so she rented a place in Maribel, WI to separate. The property is about 5 miles from Avery Auto Salvage, and is located along the route Teresa would have taken to get home to St. John from SA's (I've verified that court docs for the citizen did list a location along this route):
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Avery's+Auto+Salvage,+12930+Avery+Rd,+Two+Rivers,+WI+54241/St+John,+WI/@44.2885867,-88.0038068,11z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x88032f8641fb3e73:0xb85fa553298bb0bf!2m2!1d-87.6925129!2d44.253025!1m5!1m1!1s0x8803a72633bd68e7:0x1bf9e76f0e9dead!2m2!1d-88.2035057!2d44.1686252
On the 6th, the husband was taken into custody after a dispute with the citizen after his behavior became increasingly erratic (verified with court documents). The citizen shared that after that time, her dogs kept finding bones (she threw them away), as well as a pair of underwear, and a tool kit with a mason hammer with flicks of blood on it (in a police report filed after a complaint was made by the citizen). The underwear and tools were turned into the police (acknowledged in what looks like a genuine police report by the officer recording her complaint).
Her theory is that TH was drawn to the property because it had a "for rent" sign on it and stopped for more information, perhaps to photograph the property (the property's tax assessment lists a third party owner as of 2013 -- it appears to indeed be a rental property). The husband then killed TH by strangulation and with the mason hammer, put her body in the Rav4, and parked the Rav4 in the barn before burning her body on November 2nd.
The husband was held after his arrest on November 6th until January, at which point he was released (confirmed with court documents), then re-arrested almost immediately after getting into another dispute with the citizen. His next release was on March 2nd, the day after Brandon Dassey's confession when Dassey was first arrested, with the stipulation that he check in with the Sheriff's office daily (again all confirmed this with court documents). According to the citizen, the husband was held in psychiatric facilities during some of his stay with the county.
What is not articulated above, but not difficult to guess, is how the Rav4 and remains got onto SA's property.
A relatively simple hypothesis: the plate query on the 3rd resulted when the sheriff's deputy found the Rav4 along with the remains of TH's body.
One or more officers worked on moving the car to SA's lot before the 5th and relocated TH's remains to their final location.
The key was found later than the blood in the Rav4 because the police had access to the Rav4 earlier than SA's trailer because they had the Rav4 before it was found, and so the blood was present before the key was found. The bullet was tampered with as the defense claims.
Interesting developments after the husband’s release: both the citizen and the husband moved to Oregon (they appear in an Oregon newspaper), but according to the citizen, the husband was deported in 2009. At that point, the citizen moves back to Wisconsin and starts digging around to find out what happened and why the husband wasn’t arrested, etc. During this time, she gets in touch with convoluted Brian, and Brian posts her story to his blog.
Shortly after Brian posts her story to his blog on June 23rd, 2009, the out-building(s) in which the Rav4 was allegedly hidden, and where the murder allegedly took place, were burned down. (If you find the address, check out the street view vs. the aerial view. The street view date is October 2008 and the out buildings are still there, and aerial from 2015 doesn’t show them…super creepy.)
I confirmed the outbuildings were burned down with a print-out of an online news write-up and a website that compiles info on fires in which animals are killed.
http://firesafetyinbarns.com/loss-pdfs/animals_lost_by_fire_2009_combined.pdf (page 8)
The citizen begins having trouble with local law enforcement, culminating in her arrest for animal cruelty in 2013. She currently has a warrant out for her arrest by the Manitowoc Sheriff's department (both verified with court documents), though she since moved out of state.
The citizen also produced links to Facebook profiles for the husband. Looks like he's living abroad still, though not in his native country.
A caveat to all: this whole story is about the citizen's now ex-husband. I wouldn't accuse an ex of killing somebody no matter how it ended, but I'm not the citizen, so certainly consider the alternative story of the crime with a grain of salt. That being said, everything she does say seems to check out generally and the husband, if she is telling the truth, could be the answer to “if not SA, then who?”
Also, a couple of questions I haven’t seen elsewhere:
Where were the rest of TH’s keys? Who goes out with only a car key?
I found a source that says that cremation requires 90 minutes at 1600 - 1800 C, but an outdoor fire would surely be cooler. TH’s body would have needed much longer than the 7-9 time frame given by the DA no? (http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/E-Book/injuries/thermal-injuries)
[-] ladybh
Looks like PrimaK deleted her account? What ever happened there? Seemed interesting and like potentially promising info, but guessing nothing ever panned out?
[–][deleted]
I don't really know. She made one last post which has also since been deleted about how she was nervous about having appeared on reddit and thought it was a bad idea, etc. I suggested that she reach out to a member of the Avery family or members of Avery's original legal team but I don't know if she did either.
[–]resavr_bot
A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.
I first contacted convoluted Brian back in 2007. That's when I told him the strange things that had happened in WI. He did not publish what I told him until 2009.
Avery & Dassey People
xxxxx xxxx <xxxx_xxxxx@yahoo.com>
To convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com 04/28/07 at 6:43 PM
Thank you for the e-mail. I am not 100% convinced about anyone's innocence, but my feeling leads heavily toward those 2 individuals not having committed this crime.
The information I would like to share with you may or may not have any bearing on the crime, but I believe it is worth considering, especially in light of the fact that no other possible suspects were really ever investigated.
The information I want to share to get your ideas, thoughts on, cannot be told in a few words or sentences. It is convoluted at best and needs someone who can think critically and analytically, which I believe you do from reading your blog.
I am 49 years old, college educated and not a native of WI. I only spent half a year living there for a job, and lived in Maribel specifically from Nov. 1, 2005 until Feb. 15, 2006. I rented a big old farmhouse at 9414 County road Z in Maribel and picked up the key for it on Oct. 31, 2005, the day of the crime. At this point, not having lived in WI very long and not being at all familiar with the area, not even really following the news because I was always working, I had no idea about this incident. I found out later as the events unfolded. I was working in WI as a program director for a social services company. My actual office was in Green Bay.
In order to share the information with you which may or may not relate to this crime, I would have to give you some background information and then lead up to the odd things which occurred and which I found between Oct. 31, 2005 until I left Maribel, WI on Feb. 15, 2006. I currently live in Portland, Oregon. Everything that I will tell you was reported to the Manitowoc County Sheriff's office when I was living there, but they focused solely on Avery and would not even consider the possibility of any other suspect. I spoke once in person with Detective Dennis Jacobs regarding some items I had found and released those items to him. I found a few other items later on, but due to the disinterest of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept., I threw them away.
I was not aware of Avery's past wrongful conviction or the lawsuit against Manitowoc County at that time, as I said previously. Had I known that, I may have gone to another source and not Manitowoc.
If you want to hear what I have to say, you can reply. If not, then it will save me the time to type it all. I don't know anything for certain, but I saw enough to make me suspect there may have been a different person involved and a completely different scenario other than what the DA's office presented. I have never discussed this with anyone and don't really want to get involved but it bothers me that perhaps innocent people have been convicted of crimes when maybe not all was properly investigated.
https://www.resavr.com/comment/an-alternate-theory-continued-2319230
The username of the original author has been hidden for their own privacy. If you are the original author of this comment and want it removed, please [Send this PM]
[–]resavr_bot
A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.
There are a lot of details that were concerning during this time. I would really have to write it all out in a timeline. When I spoke to convoluted Brian, the connection was very poor, his voice was very faint and muffled and he also had difficulty hearing me and I had to repeat several times. He got most of it correct, but some things incorrect and some omitted. It was not until early 2011 that he contacted me again after publishing the blog.
Although most know my name, I have omitted it here in this email. It was shortly after speaking with Ms. Nirider (Nirider was requesting records from Manitowoc after contacting me) that an anonymous person, who sounded like a cop, began trailing me online on German Shepherd boards.
My trouble got worse as I began requesting records from Manitowoc county in 2012. I would think my problems in WI regarding my dogs were unrelated had there not been this anonymous person, whose identity I have never discovered, tracking me down, knew my name, knew where I lived, but did not know much else about me (such as what I looked like) and made reference to an old unsolved murder case in Waupaca county and called WI "land of get away with murder".
This person wanted to hurt me, ruin me and for an unexplained reason. They wanted to make sure they had the right person. They used the screen name, "forthedogs", and posted on pedigree database.com
The problem was none of the people on pedigreedatabase.com had ever met me nor seen me, they only knew of me because I had made complaints about a sick dog I was sold by one of their buddies, a big name breeder in Arizona. This anonymous person with the screen name "forthedogs" stated he/she wanted any info about me anyone had, what kind of person he/she would be dealing with because our paths would probably cross. He/she also stated he/she was not a dog breeder. Whoever this person is, he/she was after me. To this day, I do not know who it is or why they were after me. Aside from the German husband, my life is very boring and nothing at all remarkable that would cause anyone to look for me and want to hurt me.
Brian McCorkle convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com
To xxxxx xxxx 03/22/11 at 9:57 PM
I have been contacted by one of the lawyers (from Northwestern University) working on the Dassey appeal. She would like your contact information.
Would that be permissible?
Brian McCorkle convolutedbrian@convolutedbrian.com
https://www.resavr.com/comment/an-alternate-theory-continued-2318391
[–]thosefamouspotatoes
Question for primaK or AmpLee: did the German own a .22? (Not that it's an uncommon thing to have in rural WI.)
[–]AmpLee
She said he didn't own any guns.
[–]Mystic_printer
But he had a bloody mason hammer. What do they look like? Could it possibly make a wound like was found on the skull fragments?
[–]SirMildredPierce
Since you are cool with having the address out there I might as well post this map showing the 5 1/2 mile route between the Avery residence and the house in Maribel:
http://i.imgur.com/7xwyu1m.jpg
And here is historical shots of the property before and after the L-shaped barn
http://imgur.com/a/Xy9lh
Was there any kind of report filed with the Police or Fire Department that corroborates the burning of the barn?
[–]thedavehughes
The fire portion can be confirmed on page 8 of the link below.
http://firesafetyinbarns.com/loss-pdfs/animals_lost_by_fire_2009_combined.pdf
[–]SirMildredPierce
In another post you mention that "the German" was held in detention from 2008 to 2009 and deported thereafter. In your opinion would that rule him out as being directly responsible for burning down the barn?
[–]seankelly014
hmm almost like they want him to find you and maybe go crazy again and take you out
[–][deleted]
I've been in touch with u/AmpLee who has uploaded many documents to google drive. Because these documents contain so much personal information about the parties involved, it's probably not a good idea to share them too broadly. If it helps, he sent me the links and I've seen the docs. They look genuine and they do corroborate the timeline and high-level description of the events she claims took place. In order to confirm that the Maribel property was indeed the murder scene, we would have to go there to investigate. Also we would need to know how to investigate... I'm only an internet detective so, uhh, yeah...
[–]meermortal
The German's case was his arrest in January 2006 for burglary/intimidation/trespassing. Michael Griesbach was the prosecutor in both that case and his arrest for obstructing an officer on November 6, 2005. Judge Willis was the judge in both cases.
[–]Reesechristi
I believe you and support you. I give you credit for coming forward knowing how corrupt these people are. You did the right thing!!
[–]Evolving-Ocelot
As far as I am concerned, you have done all that you needed to do. Your account is out there, you left a paper trail documenting all of it and Steven/Brendan's lawyers can use it in future appeals. I just hope that if they contact you as a witness that you help them (if you're comfortable of course) and stay the hell out of Wisconsin. Those guys are sick. :p
[–][deleted]
[deleted]
[–]AmpLee
Just so it's clear and not a lot of text is wasted on the validity of the user 'primak', she is in fact legit and the ex/estranged wife of the German Man in question. I also vouch for her story despite some of the things that have taken place in other areas of the internet. While her story doesn't prove another suspect, it certainly raises a lot of questions and points to another possibility; one that should be explored. So, welcome primak, glad you decided to join.
[–]ljeanabldrcol
she mentioned her dogs finding bones....why can't we search this property now? if there are still bones there...this would be a major discovery!
[–]primak
Talk about shooting the messenger. This is why everything has been deleted and nothing further will be posted and no clarifications made and/or questions will be answered.
from TheCatAddict via /r/MakingaMurderer sent an hour ago show parent im not gonna say i support you just because you've been extremely condescending and accusatory to those trying to help. i dont support you at all. i do support avery and dassey. i think the documents are valid and credible. i also think that SB is an abusive pervert that should have been looked at seriously. is he the murderer? i dont know. are steven and brenden? no they are NOT. i wish you would do as youve threatened to SO many times now and shut up though cause youre attitude it the one making people not want to believe you or look into it further. in the long run, at this point you are hurting the avery/massey case. contextfull comments (198)reportmark unreadreply
[-] Daniel Gardner
Her story is certainly interesting. May I ask why you vouch for it?
[–]AmpLee
Well, I vouch for her story because she's backed up so much of it with documentation. There's points at which we must trust what she says because there is no documentation to prove or disprove those statements. Based on my conversations, however, I would say that everything that she has said that I questioned has come with some sort of documentation to back it up. Some of the documentation may be incomplete, but there's enough of it to say that she's certainly telling truth most of the time, if not all of the time. And if I may insert my own judgment, viewing Siegfried's FB pages, corroborates much of what she claims about his character. Here's a guy who sexually berates one person over and over, and also has a friends list mostly comprised of very young Thai boys and girls. Regardless of whether the German man is guilty or not of the murders, he is certainly a person who, I believe, is a danger to others.
[–]M_Tootles
I can't believe this is happening. (I'm somebody who was posting in the very early threads about the German when we were all speculating and discovering the dog stuff for the first time.)
It is AWESOME that she is coming across as totally normal, sane, and has an explanation (for-profit-breeders defending their turf) for the dog board stuff.
[-] magiclougie
Pagel's Ponderosa Dairy in Kewaunee, the area where Scott claims he went hunting on October 31st and where Bobby appears to have been headed around 4 PM on October 31st based on his cell phone records, matches the sketches of Nova the Psychic for the daytime planning and nightime murder of Teresa Halbach (see images below).
Regarding the house, Teresa in one of my visions said to me: “they’re missing the papers in the house.” I felt these papers were evidence that could point to someone.
It reads as following:
I was really emotional after hearing this. I saw her smiling and waving goodbye, and she and the spiritual guide disappeared in light. I could feel her energy as kind and loving, and I felt truly sorry for her and for everyone who loved her. They were also victims of a big injustice.
Bobby Dassey is Steven Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother. I’ve had a bad feeling about him since he spouted off the line about Steven Avery telling him a “joke” about hiding the body, especially since he never told that to authorities — it was someone else.
We also discussed Bobby Dassey via text and Skype:
More on Bobby Dassey later.
I went on to ask her if she had a clear picture on Teresa’s actual cause of death.
Why don’t we mosey back on over to: Bobby Dassey.
We know Amy previously read that Bobby Dassey was not only involved in the murder, but angry about something. I speculated privately it was because his brother was drawn into it as a suspect. I did not, however, tell her that Brendan was his brother — or that he was related to anyone except Steven Avery, as she correctly said he was “The Sad Man’s” nephew.
Is her son, Bobby Dassey, involved in this? What about her husband?
Why is Tadych so against Steven Avery? Barb Janda’s loyalties ping-pong back and forth the entire series. Why did Bobby Dassey make up the line about Steven Avery joking about getting rid of the body?
The Janda/Dassey Clan
We’ve covered this in previous parts. Bobby Dassey (the angry one) was most likely involved in all this and promised protection, but never expected his brother Brendan would become a suspect. He’s pissed. I’d be pissed too.
[...]
Amy gave me some very interesting insight on this shot of the salvage yard:
[–]Reesechristi
I believe you and support you. I give you credit for coming forward knowing how corrupt these people are. You did the right thing!!
[–]Evolving-Ocelot
As far as I am concerned, you have done all that you needed to do. Your account is out there, you left a paper trail documenting all of it and Steven/Brendan's lawyers can use it in future appeals. I just hope that if they contact you as a witness that you help them (if you're comfortable of course) and stay the hell out of Wisconsin. Those guys are sick. :p
[–][deleted]
[deleted]
[–]AmpLee
Just so it's clear and not a lot of text is wasted on the validity of the user 'primak', she is in fact legit and the ex/estranged wife of the German Man in question. I also vouch for her story despite some of the things that have taken place in other areas of the internet. While her story doesn't prove another suspect, it certainly raises a lot of questions and points to another possibility; one that should be explored. So, welcome primak, glad you decided to join.
[–]ljeanabldrcol
she mentioned her dogs finding bones....why can't we search this property now? if there are still bones there...this would be a major discovery!
[–]primak
Talk about shooting the messenger. This is why everything has been deleted and nothing further will be posted and no clarifications made and/or questions will be answered.
from TheCatAddict via /r/MakingaMurderer sent an hour ago show parent im not gonna say i support you just because you've been extremely condescending and accusatory to those trying to help. i dont support you at all. i do support avery and dassey. i think the documents are valid and credible. i also think that SB is an abusive pervert that should have been looked at seriously. is he the murderer? i dont know. are steven and brenden? no they are NOT. i wish you would do as youve threatened to SO many times now and shut up though cause youre attitude it the one making people not want to believe you or look into it further. in the long run, at this point you are hurting the avery/massey case. contextfull comments (198)reportmark unreadreply
[-] Daniel Gardner
Her story is certainly interesting. May I ask why you vouch for it?
[–]AmpLee
Well, I vouch for her story because she's backed up so much of it with documentation. There's points at which we must trust what she says because there is no documentation to prove or disprove those statements. Based on my conversations, however, I would say that everything that she has said that I questioned has come with some sort of documentation to back it up. Some of the documentation may be incomplete, but there's enough of it to say that she's certainly telling truth most of the time, if not all of the time. And if I may insert my own judgment, viewing Siegfried's FB pages, corroborates much of what she claims about his character. Here's a guy who sexually berates one person over and over, and also has a friends list mostly comprised of very young Thai boys and girls. Regardless of whether the German man is guilty or not of the murders, he is certainly a person who, I believe, is a danger to others.
[–]M_Tootles
I can't believe this is happening. (I'm somebody who was posting in the very early threads about the German when we were all speculating and discovering the dog stuff for the first time.)
It is AWESOME that she is coming across as totally normal, sane, and has an explanation (for-profit-breeders defending their turf) for the dog board stuff.
[-] magiclougie
Pagel's Ponderosa Dairy in Kewaunee, the area where Scott claims he went hunting on October 31st and where Bobby appears to have been headed around 4 PM on October 31st based on his cell phone records, matches the sketches of Nova the Psychic for the daytime planning and nightime murder of Teresa Halbach (see images below).
First things first.
My name is Nova, I’m 30 years old, I live in Brazil, and I’m a Psychic. I have degrees in health and therapy, but nowadays this is my work. I sense things, have visions, dreams, see or hear spirits… I use it to try to help people, balance their energies, get understanding on their problems and finding out what’s wrong.
I only tried once using my gift to investigate something. I admit it was out of curiosity and I’ve paid a high price. I contacted two violent cases, and as a result I got followed by its energies and presences, and took me days and a cold (Psychic Cold, it happens when we are overcharged with really bad energies) to get over it. That was the time when I promissed I would never ever try to do this again, but here we are. It was not my intention at all.
What happened is that while I was watching Making a Murderer, suddenly during Steven’s trial I had a glimpse out of nowhere. I saw Steven’s trailer right in front of me, the red one, on daylight, and saw to my left this deep darkness on the horizon. On it, I could feel that Teresa’s murder didn’t happen on Steven’s house, but on this other place, at full night, and I could sense two male energies with her at that moment.
Over the episodes this calling started to grow inside of me, like if I had to do something. And I did. I decided to do a Psychic Reading as an attempt do know more beyond the glimpse I’ve had. I used differente techniques on it: a personal Oracle of mine, Remote Viewing, Astral Projection, Meditation and for last a contact with Teresa herself. I admit I was a little scared at the beginning, but soon this spiritual guide showed up and guided me through all the process, and things just would flowed, and by the end, it was when all made sense to me. I didn’t have that bad experience as in the other time I went on “investigation”, and my guess is that this time I was really being “called out” and also because it wasn’t just for curiosity – I really wanted to help somehow.
Of course, just watching the docummentary gave me a lot of impressions. At the beginning I only knew that this series was causing a commotion on everyone, and there was a debate going on over someone being guilty or not guilty of a crime. Maybe this was when I first felt that “calling”. Well, as everyone else I grabed some snacks and soda, and went out for some entertaining, not expecting anything at all besides a good story. But as soon as it started, on the first episodes, I could see clearly that Steven Avery wasn’t guilty on the first case, and certainly not guilty in the second either. I could just tell who was lying, who was hiding something, who knew more than was telling… Everything only by looking at their faces and all those places. The first time I saw the SUV key picture on screen, for example, I just knew it was planted there.
I won’t say that the Avery’s didn’t have a complicated family story going on. They did. The energies on their Auto Savage Shop are quite heavy and having all those old cars and things makes an accumulation of more energies coming from other people, their past stories, etc. I saw that there were a few people on Steven’s own family that – I don’t know if I could say that – hated him, were hatred about him.
I know too that Brendan Dassey is innocent as well, he has a beautiful heaand he was instructed on his statements, not only by his attourney and the investigators. His cousin who claimed they have talked on a birthday party was threatened and coerced. His brother who told about the body joke was acting out of hard feelings and also on things he were told of.
But my job and intention on doing this Psychic Reading was never to accuse someone or to judge. I also want to make it clear that when I started to approach it, I took of my mind that I saw Steven as an innocent men, in the case I might’ve be wrong, but still I didn’t see him take parte in anything, neither Brendan. All I wanted was to know more of the truth and to see details or information that could be really useful for someone out there. And I saw, and felt, and sensed. From then to other conclusions it’s up to each and everyone’s own intelligence and logic. Besides, we as Psychics can’t always affirm things are 100% as they seem to be except in some experiences, because sometimes things will show up blurry, noisy, empty, symbolic or in other manners that are not necessarily so factual as in physical reality.
As far as I can tell, the crime took place at night on October 31st, around 11PM-01AM, but the body was hidden until November 4th when it was burned on the first hours.
On that Halloween, Teresa apparently took the pictures and got back in her car. While I watched her taking these pictures over an over – in different days I’ve repeated the contacts – I always felt the same thing: that there was something very wrong. And when she was in her SUV, her cell phone was a detail that catched my eye – there was something going on related to it. She seemed upset about a contact. I saw she turn the car on, and drive a little, but she had to stop: again it was something related to her phone. In one of my visions I heard her spirit saying “I was lured back.” So she went back to somewhere. Things start to get confusing from this point on.
Next thing I could see was she arguing with a man (remember: there were two men with her by the time she was killed). This man was a young one, in his 30’s, not beyond 40’s. He could be agressive, and was a troubled person, complicated, with issues, nor regular at works, wearing this white shirt, and sometimes I saw him wearing a black leather jacket. I saw his white skin, long face, big forehead, short hair, little eyes. He was after her for sure, and she knew him. He was not a stranger, he was not a serial killer, Teresa didn’t killed herself. So suddenly he started to get agitated and punched her, they fought. And then I couldn’t see more until later in that night, my guess is that she got unconscious.
(By the way: when I was seeing them fight, Teresa’s spirit appeared and pointed out to the man and said “It was him, he killed me!” – and I know who he is for I sensed and saw him very clearly in this vision and recognized him on Making a Murderer episodes.)
After that I saw this place which is another important detail to the case. It seemed to me like a big shelter or garage, pretty long, dark, isolated, it was kinda empty, wet, and cold. I felt her skin touching the cold floor. The building seemed to have a pointed roof, big entrance gate (sorry if this word is incorrect, I’m not a natural speaker of english). Until this time Teresa was captive, she couldn’t talk (she had a gag on her?), and her hands were tied. I heard two men talking over something. They were planning what to do with her. From what I could understand on this scene, the other man was unknown to Teresa, and he was older, and was blackmailing and threatening the first man so he would follow his orders.Just so we're all clear, Barb is NOT my mom. She was my step mom before Peter and her divorced do to her cheating on my dad for 2 years behind his back, sleeping with other guys. He came home early one day from work and caught her in the act. So yes, she lies. #Makingamurderer— Brad Dassey (@braddasseymusic) July 15, 2018
This second man was older, and had this aura of importance, of a big important person, an authority. He seemed to care little over ethics and what is right, as long as he would be fine. And it seems he wasn’t fine at all! He was trying to avoid something, desperate. He seemed to me like a person with expertize, knowledge of things. I had a vision too of this man driving from behind Teresa’s car. He was following someone, watching over some place, and this all crossed his path. This is how I understood it, but I might be wrong. He wore black clothes, his hands were in his waist (like if this was a trait of his usual body language).
Teresa could hear the talking, and she was terrified, in deep fear, and she knew inside of her that she would not gonna make it, she would not get out of there alive. And so it happened, it was really quick: the shots. One time I heard them loud, but on other time I was seeing this again I could not hear almost any sound, which caused me some doubt if it was possible that they’ve used a silencer or something else.
The idea of burning her body came from Steven’s fire pit, which was burning that night. It was so convenient!
The body was removed from the place I saw and the car as well. Things then get a little confusing for me again. I only know that the body and the car were hidden for days and were related to this house which is another important place for the case. It’s a two level house, with white or very light-colored walls. I sensed that the second man got in touch with other men, and then we had this secret alliance. They planned everything. They had the know-how on getting rid of evidence, and messing things up, and they knew how to burn the body. The body was burned in an specialized device used for this purposes, and in a manner that some pieces of bone would remain. The car was clean and the cover-up came soon. They wanted to frame Steven. They had this strategy.
This is a sketch I’ve done of the two buildings I saw.
This is a sketch I’ve done of the two buildings I saw.
Regarding the house, Teresa in one of my visions said to me: “they’re missing the papers in the house.” I felt these papers were evidence that could point to someone.
By the time they discovered her SUV, some people knew exactly where to look for it.
Speaking of evidences, the whole time I got in touch with the case it was very clear to me that there is still evidence out there, proofs, that could point to the real criminals. The phone calls were constant noises I’d hear, and the inbox messages that were deleted from Teresa’s voice mail would have pointed out to someone (they were deleted on purpose). The stalker we see Teresa’s friend speak about on one statement is something to be checked on as well. Also, money got involved behind curtains. Finally, there were these “papers,” and a key being mentioned that was not “found” and it’s supposed to still be inside the house. There can be more things I haven’t seen, of course.
The “secret alliance” had very important figures and authorities involved, some of which we saw at the docummentary and I won’t point them out. On the backstage there were more people, and I sensed a big politician too. It seems Steven’s was a trouble for many of these men who didn’t want to lose their status and this scheme of trading favours, influences, and stuff. This, personaly, annoyed me profoundly.
As I said before, my last approach was contacting Teresa herself in spirit. I need to say that I didn’t want to disturb her asking about the murder. I only wanted her to have a chance to say something, to give people a message wathever I’d be. With this intention I called out to her or to someone who could represent her. I saw the same spiritual guide who was all the time with me in this reading, and he brought her with him. They were coming from a place of light, so I knew she was fine somehow. She did appeared in spirit on my visions on the other days, but this was very different.
She looked at me maybe feeling insecure or unsure. I told her about my intentions and that I wanted to help people and wanted to give her a chance to talk. She listened with great attention (which probably means she was a good listener to others in physical life). She thought and suddenly said “I agree.” From this point on she spoke while I was writing it all down. I had a impression that she sounded like a reporter, she was a really good observer, very practical when it came to facts, and maybe being a reporter was somehow in her dreams or skills.
This was the most big injustice, for they know what really happened. They found me. I was alone. They started to talk how they would gonna do it. We fought, I fell. I knew time was over for me. I never would have thought he would be capable of that. I didn’t know the other man. Time went fast. There’s so much I’d like to say, but I can’t. They won’t allow me here [the spiritual guides]. Steven didn’t do it, he’s innocent. My mother doesn’t know anything, anything at all. She’s just trying to be ok. My [I chose to censure the word] is the one to talk about.
We were fighting a lot. He wouldn’t let me go. He said he’d go after me. And he did. I tried to hide. We argued. He punched me. I remember this cold floor; bloodtaste.
They never found the key, but it’s in their house, with the papers. The note is true [read below about this]. They all did it together, but they’re gonna pay, and are paying already.
As time goes by I’m ok. I don’t look back, I understand altought not always I can accept. They should have made right from wrong when they got a chance.
I miss Timy [at first I heard Nini or something like this then I searched online and found out one of her brother’s was Tim and she referred to him in this kind manner]. Time here is so fast. I’ll soon be there when all this is over for you. I appreciate your kindness, and I know it’ll help someone.
The dark night sticks in my head by surprise, when I dream [some spirits adjusting to the other side might sleep and dream here and then until they don’t need it anymore], and so I need too that this all go away for good.
I miss the plants, my friends, my home. Have to let go.
It’s time [for the message to end]. You’ve seen it all, you won’t see more. Be brave, life is good, but is only a chance. Stay truth… Bye.
I was really emotional after hearing this. I saw her smiling and waving goodbye, and she and the spiritual guide disappeared in light. I could feel her energy as kind and loving, and I felt truly sorry for her and for everyone who loved her. They were also victims of a big injustice.
For the message, if there are misspells or any coherence errors it might be due to my writing – the speaking was perfectly clear and fluent.
The note mentioned it’s something I saw the day before I received Teresa’s message: a woman in a post I was reading and commenting told me of a note which had some misspells, and which said in it that the body was burned in a smelter on friday, november 4th, 3AM.
The note mentioned it’s something I saw the day before I received Teresa’s message: a woman in a post I was reading and commenting told me of a note which had some misspells, and which said in it that the body was burned in a smelter on friday, november 4th, 3AM.
On the conclusion of my experiences I just knew that somehow justice would prevail eventually for Steven and Brendan. I’m not sure if they payment for the real criminals and their “mates” will come in jail, or in life itself.
As she told me, from that moment on I didn’t feel or see anything else regarding the case and had any visions or sensed anything else. It was only on her “report” I could make sense of everything, and I felt my part of the work was done.
I hope that this will get to someone’s heart. I don’t claim it all to be the absolute truth. I know that there are other elements or evidences I haven’t seen, but the main points I believe to be these.
If you live in USA, please, do what you can to support Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey. Do what you can for a real investigation to take place! And everyone, pray for them, send light and love for them, because they need it. Both of them, and their families, as Teresa’s family as well, her friends, and this case itself which is buried in heavy and dark energies.
If you live in USA, please, do what you can to support Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey. Do what you can for a real investigation to take place! And everyone, pray for them, send light and love for them, because they need it. Both of them, and their families, as Teresa’s family as well, her friends, and this case itself which is buried in heavy and dark energies.
Thank you for your attention and may the Light of Life bless us all!
A Conversation With Amy The Clairvoyant
Teresa is MAM’s victim, a photographer who was last seen at the Avery residence.
This was Amy’s response via text:
Police Department Sheriff's Office.
A Conversation With Amy The Clairvoyant
Teresa is MAM’s victim, a photographer who was last seen at the Avery residence.
This was Amy’s response via text:
First thing I get is she was “at the wrong place at the wrong time.” Her death was awful, moreso for the time/torture aspect of it. I see so many people involved. At least five. There are two men who took her from somewhere. It looks rural and maybe like a beat-up trailer home or something. There is junk in the yard around it. Like country folk.That line “at the wrong place at the wrong time” gives me chills. I think that’s the perfect way to phrase it. If you don’t believe that Steven Avery killed Teresa, as I don’t, I think it had to be someone who nabbed her on the way off the Avery property. Which, by the way, is basically what Amy describes. Rural, trailer park, junk. Nail on the head.
Then… where the torture comes in… I see her tied up and duct tape on her mouth. There literally are at least three other older men standing there “discussing” how to kill her. Dispose of her. She is just listening to all of this and they are taking their sweet time.I imagine this conversation would’ve had to be post-torture. Perhaps she was discovered by the older men after being tortured by younger men? Discussion was then had on how she couldn’t be found, she had to be “disposed of?”
They are all older…one has a pot belly…one is skinny. They feel well-educated where the men who did the actual deed feel like street thugs. I don’t feel they caught them…people did not come to justice.This gives me the feeling that the older, better-educated men might be law enforcement since that’s the biggest theory in MAM: Steven Avery was set up, twice, by the Manitowoc County
I am trying to get how she died. I see blood…so I know it was violent, more than strangling. I feel very, very sorry for her. Makes me sad.
[...]
We also discussed Bobby Dassey via text and Skype:
This guy, I really need to read. There is something there. This guy is nasty.I thought so too. I’ve got some suspicion on him but I don’t know what it is, exactly.
He has such… there’s no feeling. No feeling. How he plays into this, though, I’m not sure. He’s… a nephew of somebody? Or a relative of somebody involved in this thing.Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
I’m trying to read if his coldness is because he’s pissed, or if he… he’s one of the two or three younger guys, I think, who took part in kidnapping her, torturing her. They took her to a place, um, that felt like to me like an old old shed, a giant shed or barn type of place, definitely not something that was furnished. It had, like, tools in there, rust, dirt. She’s tied up, sitting, duct-tape on her mouth.Seems like there would be something like that around the Avery property for sure, or at least nearby. Interesting. They definitely checked Avery’s garage, like, a lot.
He’s a relative to someone important, I think, to this whole thing. Um, I may have misjudged him. Which is what I need to figure out. The first thing I’m seeing in him is just oh my god, this guy is so cold and bad and all this, but when I look at him, and really read into him right now I feel like he, uh, might be very… actually pissed off at the situation.I found this really intriguing, so she dove deeper.
He’s upset. That’s where that coldness is coming from, I’m feeling? Not necessarily SURE that he’s on the bad side… He could literally kill someone, he’s that angry and upset, but I think actually this could be that he’s upset about the situation, maybe not on the bad side of things. I feel this 100%, he is SO dead inside over what is happening.In my opinion, both aspects make total sense for a certain theory. If Bobby Dassey was involved in Teresa’s murder and corroborated with police to frame Steven Avery, I doubt it was ever suggested that his slow little brother would also be a suspect. It’s even suggested in MAM that Brendan Dassey was only brought in for questioning because they needed something more than circumstantial evidence. If you accidentally got someone you loved charged with a murder you committed, wouldn’t that make you dead inside?
More on Bobby Dassey later.
[...]
I have always felt she was shot. Quick death once done. And dismembered after death. Mostly because of wanting to give the illusion of wanting to “hide” her…to make sure no one would ever be able to “find her”…to really make it look like a lot of trouble had to “cover up.” Also, to make it seem like he, the sad man, had help too. I see someone saying “there is no way he could have done it on his own.”I mentioned that it was widely reported during the case that Steven Avery was the last person to see Teresa alive. Amy’s response:
He was not the last to see her. They are lying. She was set up to go there for the purpose of grabbing her on his property. Period.This. Makes. So. Much. SENSE.
I also feel this woman was sexually involved with one of the men. Not love…sex. I don’t know why…I don’t have a flash or anything to prove that…I just feel there was something going on with one of them that made her easy for this person to ask, convince, and sacrifice.
[...]
We know Amy previously read that Bobby Dassey was not only involved in the murder, but angry about something. I speculated privately it was because his brother was drawn into it as a suspect. I did not, however, tell her that Brendan was his brother — or that he was related to anyone except Steven Avery, as she correctly said he was “The Sad Man’s” nephew.
The picture of the guy that I read previously that I felt was a nephew…and angry at the situation. I feel he is the brother of this younger kid…the one I just read. He is the one he basically worships and looks up to.Outta the park. What else?
I feel also there is great tension between this guy and the sad man [Steven Avery]. The guy doesn’t like the sad man. He doesn’t like him around. I feel there is a lot of lying…of course! Lying to each other’s faces. A lot of fake family loyalty that is really just all this grosses of hate and judgement brewing under the surface. Fake loyalties and fake allegiances too. A lot of game playing. It is exhausting to tune into. I don’t know how these people lived life this way. More backstabbing and fake faces forward and lies and competition and cover up than I have ever seen. It is enough to make my head spin…This is very interesting insight. Barb Janda, Brendan Dassey’s mother, clearly had a very rocky relationship with Steven Avery. And her husband, Scott Taydch, famously told the media upon Steven Avery’s conviction: “What happened yesterday is the best thing in the world. He got what he got comin’ to him.” That’s an odd amount of hostility towards someone in your own family. And I established that the car Teresa Halbach was arriving to photograph didn’t belong to Steven Avery, but to Barb Janda. There’s some suspicion there for sure.
[...]
She was used. They led her like a sheep to slaughter. The whole thing being contrived as an ends to a means? I feel she was meeting someone the night she was killed and I do feel she was killed.
Not knowing a plan was hatching that she was going to be a sacrificial lamb kind of scenario? I feel the man in the police uniform you sent of the pic of [Andy Colborn] is one of the men her set this whole thing in motion. I feel like this is a huge setup. A trap.
This disturbs me greatly…but I feel she is in pieces? Scattered and bloody. THE WORST part being…I feel parts of her were fed to pigs. I am being dead serious. I feel she was eaten by pigs. At least parts of her. I literally see a white bucket of blood and parts. It makes me sick.
[...]
People in the comments have been begging Amy to take a look at Brendan and Bobby Dassey’s stepfather [Scott Tadych]. He acted very strange on the stand — why is his face twitching so much? — and as I mentioned before, his over-the-top reaction to Steven Avery’s conviction is alarming to say the least. (“What happened yesterday is the best thing in the world. He got what he got comin’ to him.”)
So what did Amy have to say about Mr. Tadych?
So what did Amy have to say about Mr. Tadych?
The mustache man in the next picture…he is lying as well. It is incredible how much deceit I pick up in everyone of these pictures. To me, this man…mustache man…would be easy to tell he is lying. Like, others could hear what he is saying and out of all of them…could tell he is full of BS.
“Mustache Man”, I love it. Anyway, the “tell” she brings up could very well be the twitching I referenced earlier. His face jumps all over the place while being questioned. I remember upon first viewing that I didn’t trust him — and neither, it seems, did most of you.
He is not doing a very convincing job of backing up in confidence what he is saying here. Whatever that may be. I also feel he is a witness to seeing people or cars or things that place people and objects at certain places at certain times. He also feels like he was at the crime scene…so a cop as well or something to do with that.
As a refresher, Tadych says on the stand that he was hunting during the time the crime would’ve been committed. He mentions the “big fire” on Steven Avery’s property. He then says he saw Steven Avery near the fire. He also says he passed Bobby Dassey on the way to hunting — weird that he’s setting up an alibi for his stepson for no reason, eh? Everything in his statement is exactly what Amy sees: he’s trying to place Steven Avery at a suspicious fire, Bobby Dassey on the road, and himself hunting during the time of the crime.
No one other than his mother and his stepson saw him that day. So the only alibis either Bobby Dassey or Scott Tadych have are each other? You’re right, Amy, I’m not buying it. I’ll call BS.
And if he was at the crime scene — since we are all aware Tadych is not a cop, what would he have been doing there? The pieces are starting to fall into place.
That makes Steven Avery, as so famously lauded, “the last one to see her alive.” And it makes sense: “Oh Steven, we thought we could be there but we can’t, could you just talk to Ms. Halbach so we can get that picture? We really need to sell the car.” I mean, RIGHT?
Okay, since we’ve been talking about them peripherally so much, let’s jump over to:
Okay, since we’ve been talking about them peripherally so much, let’s jump over to:
The Janda/Dassey Clan
Okay first off, can we talk about Scott Tadych’s smug fucking smirk in that picture? I mean, come on. Thinks of himself as much smarter than he is, indeed. Anyway…
The boys in the picture. Wow. This is heartbreaking. I just feel and keep hearing “they had no choice.” There was no choice in the matter. One knew this and took his knocks (the angry one). He is angry at sad man. He is angry at mustache man. He is angry at the whole damn situation.
We’ve covered this in previous parts. Bobby Dassey (the angry one) was most likely involved in all this and promised protection, but never expected his brother Brendan would become a suspect. He’s pissed. I’d be pissed too.
The woman in the photo, she has zero say. Zero. For her life and her own good and also to not “lose” something. That feels monetary to me. Position too.
Barb is hardly in control during the entire case. Especially if the above is true and her husband convinced her that she couldn’t do anything but they stood to profit if she stayed quiet.
[...]
Amy previously did a read on “Mustache Man,” as she calls him, and noted that he was absolutely lying and not doing a very good job convincing others of what he’s said to have witnessed. But there’s more.
Okay…so mustache man… so what I am feeling when I tune into him, besides my earlier read, is there is some kind of heirarchy in this family unit? There are positions and places and that has to do with money and land and power and wills, etc. I feel this man may be related through marriage? I could be wrong about that. But he is definitely related to “sad man” [Steven Avery].
This is a really interesting angle. She’s right about Tadych having married in; he’s Bobby and Brendan Dassey’s stepfather and Steven Avery’s brother-in-law. But what kind of issues do the Avery/Dassey clans have with hierarchy? They do seem to own a pretty large lot of land, maybe inheritance is coming to play here? The family seems far from friendly with each other and Barb Janda (Bobby and Brendan Dassey’s mother, Steven Avery’s sister) flip-flops on Steven’s innocence the entire documentary.
He just feels to me what people call a “used car salesman” type of demeanor. A slick talker and a yes man. Has no real backbone. Goes with what he is told and thinks he is much smarter and craftier than what he really is.
Now I don’t know Tadych personally but I definitely agree with this assessment. I think he thinks he’s a pretty smart cookie yet that’s far from the truth.
I feel he was offered something. Someone came to him and said, “It is in your best interest if this goes this way and here is why…and can we count you in?” Promises were made and some of those have to do with the positions in this family. There is a lot of resentment towards “sad man” and a whole lot of “you don’t deserve to be still reaping the benefits…” kind of stuff. There were a lot hoping this sad man stayed gone? They were happy about him being gone?
Again, law enforcement having something to do with all this mess is what this reminds me of. But what raises the hair on my arms is — if you, as I do, believe Amy has looked at no information on this case other than what I’ve sent her — the “still reaping the benefits” isn’t even something I’d ever considered. Could she be talking about Steven Avery’s settlement for his false imprisonment? He was poised to make quite a bit of money. Was Tadych’s attitude basically “fuck that guy, he doesn’t deserve all that money, yeah you can count me in”? And in addition to that, the idea that his family (the Dasseys more than anything, I’d guess) wanted to keep him gone… that’s pretty chilling, too, and more than enough reason to cooperate with the cops.
He really is so gross…and just dumb…he actually has no feelings for who this destroys. “It’s for the good of the family…name…legacy…etc.” This is what I hear him saying…trying to convince someone that they are doing the right thing. I hear lots and lots of promises being made by two sides. Protection… “It won’t be that bad”…convincing of time periods, like… “It will just be a chunk of time…and worth it…there will be this for you (some kind of prize or money or title) at the end of it…” He is a liar and as I stated before, a pretty obvious one.
So if this is true, Tadych was more than happy to go along with whoever was instructing him to lie on the stand. I find it very interesting that he was the one doing the “convincing”… I would guess it would have been to Barb Janda, Steven’s sister. Convincing her that it was worth it and the inconvenience to them wouldn’t be long. How wrong he was about that.
I actually feel he knew the woman that was murdered too. The one I read previously. On the telephone…speaking…like he set something up or was part of that whole thing.
I have speculated this before; I think that the Janda/Dassey clan had more to do with Teresa and the sale of the car she was there to photograph than we even know. It’s not hardly mentioned in the documentary but worth knowing that the car being sold on the Avery property did NOT belong to Steven Avery — it belonged to Barb Janda. Makes way more sense that someone like Tadych or Barb would make that call and arrange everything, doesn’t it?
[...]
I wanted to have Amy take a look at some more planted evidence. If you recall Amy has picked up in the past that the key evidence being presented was placed there — likely by James Lenk — and I thought we might see what she had to think about the blood that is supposedly Steven Avery’s on Teresa Halbach’s dashboard.
Here’s what she found:
Picture of car steering wheel with blood — I actually see someone doing this…and the person I see doing this I have read before. I am going to have to go back through your pictures.
Okay, so more planted evidence — which is what was presented in the documentary, that the vial of Steven Avery’s old blood was tampered with and then put on the dash. So who put it there?
I just went back through…Mustache Man [Scott Tadych]! I see Mustache Man doing this. He was at the crime scene. He was working with them. He is dumb enough for this placement too. I literally see him planting this blood in his goofy and cocky way… excited as if he had been given an assignment by the big guys to be a “real” cop! Like a boy.
Very interesting. He definitely could’ve had access to the car. And it makes sense that the authorities might pass off a job this risky to a civilian involved, especially if Tadych was as eager to help as he seemed on the stand. Also interesting that Amy noted “dumb enough” — because if the documentary is right, then the blood was literally taken from the vial and squirted with a syringe. That is pretty fucking dumb.
[...]
Amy gave me some very interesting insight on this shot of the salvage yard:
So, this just reminds me of a game. The reason I feel like I’m seeing that is because it IS a game. What is happening right now is players playing a game. That’s what I get. And I get that it is not from, um, this lifetime. These players have all done this before, it’s just rehashing, like a tape being played on repeat.
But this in particular… I feel like you could do a whole sitcom off of the people that are here. Like, uh, there’s characters. There’s like, four, five, six different people who are all… connected in this little land, and they… are characters. They’re just crazy, like, just… I see little cartoon characters, like gnomes, and imps. Strange people. Strange land.
And there’s a ton of energy coming off that land that, you know, if you wiped out all the craziness and put luxury condos or something there, it’s still gonna have a funky feel, because that goes back a loooooong time… whatever THAT is.
Dead/Missing/FramedBobby D.'s Phone Records Reveal that at 3:03pm he made a call to an FFL Dealer, named K. Hansen. https://t.co/i715YvguuO This call is the one he made when he was west of the area he claimed to be in. Note this K. Hansen is also a FB friend of Scott T.s. #MakingAMurderer pic.twitter.com/ravZ381tWw— JynxTheAwesome (@MysticJynx) July 8, 2018
By August141981, TickTockManitowoc
November 7, 2016
November 3, 2005 was a seemingly busy day for Manitowoc and surrounding areas. Carmen Boutwell was found of a suspicious drug overdose that morning at approximately 8:30 am. Teresa Halbach is reported missing later that day at approximately 5:00 pm. Steven Avery shows on the Global Subject Activity Report Summary as HOMICIDE SUSPECT at 6:34 pm.
Can these three events be connected? It certainly looks as though they can.
Warrant was issued for Carmen Boutwell's arrest on October 10, 2005:
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetails.do;jsessionid=1FB01A0C071E340DB6CD1315968E172E.render6?caseNo=2005CF000341&countyNo=36&cacheId=A5587DAFB43FFED9A7E1F5AE65F0597E&recordCount=6&offset=3&mode=details&submit=View+Case+Details
September 19, 2005 - was this the test run?
October 10, 2005 - was this a failed or aborted attempt to lure Teresa to her death?
CB Warrant filed Oct 10, 2005
CB Warrant served Oct 12, 2005
CB Bail/Bond Hearing Oct 13, 2005
CB Initial appearance Oct 17, 2005
CB Notice entered Oct 2005 - Review is set for Nov 3, 2005 @ 8:30 am
Teresa Halbach is scheduled with AutoTrader and has an appointment with Steven Avery at salvage yard.
Ryan Hillegas speaks with TH over the phone for 17 minutes the evening of Oct 10, 2005. Note he called or received calls from TH, and if you look at the phone records of RH, you will see a pattern Oct 10/11 & Oct 30/31.
RH's phone record call patterns do seem quite similar for both Monday the 10th and Monday the 31.
Monday October 10 2005
8:13 AM Voice
Monday October 10 2005
3:53 PM Incoming Mrc
Monday October 10 2005
5:45 PM 2 DM
Monday October 10 2005
6:20 PM Incoming 17 TH
Monday October 10 2005
6:46 PM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
6:40 AM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
7:56 AM Oshkosh
Tuesday October 11 2005
11:31 AM MK
Tuesday October 11 2005
11:43 AM Outgoing TH
The Fateful final 48 hours:
October 30 2005
1:26 PM 1 SB
October 30 2005
1:35 PM 2 SB
October 30 2005
3:30 PM 1 VIDEO
October 31 2005
9:10 AM Incoming 8 DM
October 31 2005
9:41 AM Incoming 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
3:48 PM 1 Voice
October 31 2005
3:50 PM CM
October 31 2005
6:01 PM Incoming 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
6:02 PM Incoming 23 Unknown
October 31 2005
6:25 PM 3 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:19 PM Incoming 3 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:36 PM 2 Unknown
October 31 2005
7:37 PM 2 SB
October 31 2005
7:47 PM Incoming 5 SB
What was CB doing leading up to October 31, 2005?
Prior to October 31, 2005
CB had met with LE days prior to her death. Her grandmother had driven her to an out of the place location where they met LE, and CB sat in the back seat of LE’s car, refusing to tell them what they wanted to hear. She was nervous and anxious about this meeting.
CB - October 31, 2005
On the day of October 31st, her family tells me that she was attending school in prep to attend college and had came home for lunch that day and spoke with her mom about what she was doing for Halloween. CB loved Halloween and she loved shelling out candy to the local kids. She told her mom that she was staying home that night and would look forward to her mom stopping by with her little brother in costume. Unfortunately she never spoke with her again and did not make it over that night to see her.
TH - October 31, 2005
On the day of October 31, 2005, TH is working her Monday at AutoTrader and has an appointment at salvage yard with SA to take photo of his sister's van.
OCTOBER 31 timeline detailed on reddit (angieb15) with many great links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4kvwfc/october_31_2005_timeline/
November 3, 2005
At approximately 8:30 am, CB’s grandmother had gone upstairs and knocked on the door to wake CB, and she did not answer (CB’s lived in an apartment of the upstairs and her grandmother lived downstairs). A few minutes later an unknown female alerted CB’s grandmother that CB may be dead. The grandmother went upstairs where she found CB sitting on the floor, leaning against the stereo, and unresponsive.
MSCO was contacted and responded. Conversations between MCSO and CB’s family immediately ensued and her family was told she had OD’d.
The family of course was devastated. MCSO immediately discussed that they would assist the family with her funeral arrangements. The family paid for CB’s funeral; however, even before CB's body was removed from her apartment, MCSO told the family that they should have her cremated. They advised the family that an autopsy would be done immediately and that they would help with the arrangements for cremation.
The autopsy was completed Nov 4th, and CB’s funeral was Nov 8th.
Her family remembers placing her in the back of the hurst shortly after 1pm on Nov 8th, where she was taken to be cremated. It took 3 weeks for her cremains to be returned to the family.
CB’s family questioned her death a few times to LE and were told that she was a drug addict and to get over it and that finding her killer was virtually impossible. LE never investigated CB's suspicious drug death! MSCO stated in the news article that the case was still open.
At approximately 5:00 pm, Teresa Halbach is reported missing.
Teresa Halbach RAV4 is listed as in custody November 3, 2005 (no time listed on report - source link page 3):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MTSO-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf
At 6:34 pm, approximately 2 1/5 hours after TH missing person report was filed, SA was documented as TH murder suspect (NOVEMBER 3/05 @ 18:34 hours - Global Subject Activity Report).
Dave Remiker - report shows that he was not working November 3, 2005:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=1032
This is where I would love to see CB's investigation paperwork, as DR says he was on this case. But he seems to be MIA that day, and then was recorded as being involved in SA case.
At 10:00 pm the breaking news of TH missing on WBAY:
http://wbay.com/2016/01/07/video-nov-3-2005-teresa-halbach-is-missing/
November 4, 2005
Because MSCO had removed the same coroner that was walled off from SA case, CB was driven 2 hours drive to Waukesha County Morgue. Her autopsy was done by Debra P Kakatch, MD Forensic Pathologist, and TH, Forensic Autopsy Assistant.
This autopsy was done Nov 4th 2005. The Autopsy report shows her organs were normal -- that is not indicative to someone who is a “druggie” -- along with the low numbers for methadone & alcohol.
What is questionable is the mention of markings and their location, that she was more apt to have died from suffocation/strangulation rather then OD.
During the autopsy, tissues and samples were taken and stored, and also there was a DNA card made for her.
(NOTE: the coroner DK had contacted CB's family daily, always saying how sorry she was. Her last day calling, she called x3, with the last conversation being that she was removed from the case, and she stopped contacting the family.)
10:00 am Pam Sturm sees news featuring TH (page 197):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=197
Between 3:10 - 7:25 pm, RH speaks with LE 22 times (I am not posting the link to spread sheet but you all I’m sure are aware).
At 4:00 pm, DaveB & SarahB arrive at salvage yard. They speak with SA and leave a missing person flyer (page 214):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-1-2007Feb12.pdf#page=214
Between 7:30 - 8:00 pm, SA brother sees headlights near the pit while leaving for Crivitz and calls SA (see report):
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Interview-Report-2005Nov05.pdf
Timeline of activity Nov 4, 2005 for TH missing person case:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4kwcwi/november_4_2005_timeline/
When you go back and look at CB court documents, the following stands out:
Nov 8 2005, motion and order of dismissal, ordering the action dismissed without prejudice because the defendant is deceased (that is 5 days after she died, that is the very day of her funeral, that is the very day the supposed bones were found on the salvage yard).
In none of CB's other court documents is it logged that she was deceased until the following year, and 2 documents actually still don’t show her as deceased.
Have I gotten your attention yet?
[–][deleted]
Yes, after 11 months on this forum, you have gotten my attention like none other.
[–]bashdotexe
"Shock and Horror" indeed if CB turns out to be a part of this. Her family already had funeral arrangements but MTSO insisted on taking care of it for them? While also not investigating after the autopsy showed strangulation?
This has my attention for sure.
[–]missingtruth
Yes, you have my attention. Great post of connections. Scary...
[–]August141981[S]
thank you and its frightening
[–]Jayyouung
The CB/TH theory has been dismissed so many times but there are definitely some links between the two. Great post that will keep me thinking.
[–]SilkyBeesKnees
You're right! November 3, 2005 was a red letter day for Manitowoc. The CB connection is a weird one. I trust Zellner to prove Avery's innocence but will we ever have the whole story? Excellent post.
[–]rachabe
Wow. Excellent post, OP.
permalinkembedsavegive award
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
You've got my attention! The CB connection has always bugged me! I believe there is a connection but can't quite put the puzzle pieces together. Only things I can think of is they used her for her bones AND/OR they used her as a stand in for the bogus Zipperer appt. Great post!
[–]August141981[S]
I assure you CB did not look like the photo in the news article. The photo her mom was holding was of her a few years younger. Yes she resembled the photo somewhat but that was not her look when she died
[–]foghaze
I can confirm this. I've seen the pic too. They looked nothing alike anymore and she could not have pulled off posing as Teresa. So I hope those who are leaning in this direction can see how that scenario would be impossible.
FYI the markings on her throat are a bit suspicious but after further research seem to be common. I really don't know what to think about her connection, if there is one, anymore. I'm leaning more to no connection TBH.
[–]August141981[S]
Thank you fog and I appreciate your input as always.
[–]foghaze
Thank you fog and I appreciate your input as always.
Your welcome. One thing I do find strange is how she was taken to the coroner in Waukesha and how they made her get an autopsy when none was needed. It's odd how they immediately called it an overdose when they couldn't have actually known this. The coroner she was taken to was connected with another corrupt cop case that had recently happened as well in another county but he testified for the defense. It's pretty interesting because a cop shot this guy in the head and some of the cranial pieces were missing according to him. They were apparently on the ground but he claims he never got them. Crazy huh? You can kinda see where I might be going with that. I will get that info to you when I have the chance.
Also when I look at the very little amount of drugs in her system compared to the BAC level I cannot see how she died but I think it's possible had she never taken methadone before. I'm no expert at all but the levels of methadone in her system appear very low. However, if this is coupled with alcohol it does make a difference. I do suspect that it's possible she got it from LE.
The deeper I dig the more it looks like the entire state is corrupt.
[–]August141981[S]
mb jr is who you are referring?
yes another interesting case
[–]foghaze
mb jr is who you are referring?
I can't remember the names or details. It was a while back when I researched all this but it was a corrupt cop case where he pulled a guy over who was supposed to be in court testifying against him in a few hours. Something like that. The cop straight up killed him for no reason at all at close range. He was unarmed.
[–]August141981[S]
this one foghaze?
http://michaelbell.info/MEReport.html
[–]foghaze
Yes that's the one
[–]stateurname
Did you have a previous post about a certain guy who had a court date schedule for a certain time? Cant recall, but CB's friend at the time?
[–]August141981[S]
If you are referring to first name rhymes with Mary you quite likely read my posts here
https://m.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/53o8cu/them_dry_bones/?ref=search_posts
[–]stateurname
Yes! I believe it is, would be from MC or from different area? Just seeing if there was a link with him and any others in the area.
Out of all this mess, I hope the friends around CB have been able to get clean and out of the area.
[–]August141981[S]
I believe we will see change, this is a lot for many of them. Some have, some are and hope others will find the strength to direct themselves in positive ways
[–]foghaze
Did you have a previous post about a certain guy who had a court date schedule for a certain time? Cant recall, but CB's friend at the time?
Yes his name was G. Kreie. According to her family they weren't really friends. They didn't even know who he is but for some reason, MTSO ordered her to stay away from him.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4lkfbv/the_curious_case_of_boutwell_kreie/
[–]solunaView
Have you found any maternal relatives that could link CB and TH? Even distantly?
[–]ControlOptional
I looked back all the way to ancestors several generations and found nothing
[–]solunaView
Yeah I know a few people did. Thanks. Never hurts to ask new eyes I figured. :) Still not discounting this. The other thing is with only 7 loci matching the odds in the regular population are much better like in the hundreds possibly.
The other thing is we don't know if LE would out and out fake the mtDNA testing. SC has spit on her hands already how much of a leap would it be to just fake a test or three?
[–]August141981[S]
I use to work with a retired forensic guy who had a routine. One day I mentioned his habits to him and that is when I found out his previous work was. In the 5 or so years I worked with him NOT ONCE did he cough in his hands.
SC was a nervous nitty for a reason.
[–]dark-dare
Its called dry labbing and it is more common than you think in state run labs.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes maternal, yes related and distant on fathers side Edit: CB father related to TH father
[–]no_idea_4_names
So that wouldn't count towards mtdna then would it? Thought that was all through the mothers side? Grewt post though OP I'm agog as 2 gogs
[–]August141981[S]
mtdna means nothing! just more fluff on the prosecution side of things.
The reality is that there is plenty of lies and deceit that was created and executed by the prosecution and the thugs.
[–]SBRH33
That is an interesting theory.
[–]IvanaVodka
I have also thought they might have used CB's bones. This case is so messed up it's infuriating!
[–]dark-dare
*A few minutes later an unknown female alerted CB’s grandmother that CB may be dead the grandmother went upstairs where she found CB sitting on the floor leaning against the stereo and unresponsive. *
WOAH WTF Do you have any further information, where did this come from?
[–]August141981[S]
WOAH WTF Do you have any further information, where did this come from?
Frightening isn't it...I've been deep deep down in the CB rabbit hole, all the fluff that KK made in regards to DNA and such is just that. This Information and more has been turned over to proper authority and I can't wait for that ship to sink and those responsible for this heinous crime are made accountable
They framed them, they shamed them and they stole their lives.
I was sickened by what they did to SA x2. I was horrified by what they did to BD. I'm frightened by what they did to CB. These are people who are supposed to be looking after "we the people" and for decades they've only been looking after themselves. it's disgusting
[–]dark-dare
I cannot publish what I am thinking, Gobbsmacked!
[–]August141981[S]
The weight we carry with the information we gather! I'm at the point I just want it all to come out and those 2 innocent men released
[–][deleted]
[deleted]
[–]August141981[S]
Perhaps KK
I mean he had a drug problem, obvious narcissistic behaviour, money problems, failed marriage, rehab and the list goes on. The kind that really isn't going to turn down an opportunity.
My read is he might just not have gotten the memo at rehab and prefers the messed up kind of behaviour.
I don't know why someone like him has left his fb wide open for the world to see. Is that part of his messed up behaviour or is it KZ. She's brilliant
[–]Lolabird61
You don't say. Who? KK?
[–]dark-dare
I'm there with no information, write a book, get it all out.
[–]dark-dare
Any WTF revelations to do with the boyfriend, who skipped jail the day before CB died, who was thought to be an informant? Who is the woman??? WB popped to mind, also the dispatcher was a neighbor!
Mind blowen
[–]August141981[S]
He was not a boyfriend, I have been told either he or someone else he associated with were also seen outside her home the day she was found deceased
He should have never been given a huber if you go back thru his records you will see he didn't qualify for such a privilege but be prepared to sort thru it all his records look like GA it's crazy
[–]7-pairs-of-panties
And the non boyfriend of CB that your referring to GK is FB friends w/ WB, he was also put back in the slammer soon after MAM came out.
[–]August141981[S]
He has an interesting group of friends and connections. He lost his father young, seems the loss of his sister crushed him. He didn't seem to get a great response on his last couple posts on fb
[–]angieb15
Can you say where you got all the details? Because some of this is previously unknown and fascinating...
[–]August141981[S]
Direct connections to CB and it's both fascinating and frightening thru many months and tons of reading and telephone conversations. Working with some really great thinkers. I surely couldn't have gathered all on my own but was encouraged to post this here and hope to gather further thoughts and information
[–][deleted]
I am interested in her sitting in the car with LE and not telling them what they wanted to hear. What did they want to hear?
[–]August141981[S]
It is believed that DEA was there at the meeting as well I am convinced that CB knew something or was being pressured for something and refused to play the game or was silenced
I believe from my information gathered that this is a case of 1 dead 1 missing and 2 framed
[–][deleted]
Are you implying something with "one dead and one missing" rather than two dead?
[–]August141981[S]
One is dead and one is missing I'm not implying anything CB is confirmed and documented as deceased TH is reported missing, there is no proof of rape/torture/mutilation or murder no body fluid/blood no damage to the bed where supposed rape took place. Heck car-char-ski the officer I refer as "dopey" sat on the very bed of the crime scene and took notes while the other 2 idiots packed up the evidence they just planted.
And it all started with a sweaty narcissistic story teller, and we're all still rooting searching for the murderer that we were told about
[–]stateurname
Whaat? you are the Queen of times. OP is great, you are still the queen of time.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes indeed she is I use her timelines daily to check my information. There are many amazing people here who spend a lot of time sifting thru and sorting
[–]stateurname
Your OP is so good. If you are in the area, you have to think vacation for a while.
[–]August141981[S]
I don't live in USA but certainly hope to one day meet CB family, a bond is created now and no matter the outcome her death needs to be investigated by trusted authorities
[–]angieb15
Lol, thanks. I've never heard a lot of this detail about CB.
[–]seekingtruthforgood
If you haven't already read this, you may find this older post (x-post) and its comments fascinating
https://np.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4aboty/is_this_the_doctor_that_supplied_the_methadone/
[–]August141981[S]
CB was found dead the morning of Nov 3rd its listed on her autopsy report as is the date of her autopsy being Nov 4. It's been confirmed and report has been turned over to team Zellner months ago.
[–]Thesnakesate
Really? Hummm, well that's funny.....the call into dispatch!! AC calls in and inqrires about a dead girl found and asking if it's our girl from Cal. County that was missing (TH), dispatch says the girl (CB) was found that morning, so I'm assuming it is THURSDAY! because TH wasn't declared missing til 11/3 PM!! Fishy fishay!
[–]August141981[S]
There was an unknown/unnamed female there when CB was found but there were others that left in the night.
[–]SBRH33
I hope to hear much more about this. I have quietly kept the CB thought s to myself for a long time.
Most would consider it too far fetched of a plot. I personally really dont think it is.
These guys (MTSO) were up against a real tough wall. It was all hands on deck.
[–]covertoperations911
This is a fantastic post - such incredibly important information. I can't thank you enough for sharing all of it with us and for giving the Boutwell family a voice. The revelations about the autopsy and the cremation are astounding.
Boutwell wasn't simply being processed through the courts, she was on the radar of the federal security services - and for reasons that remain unknown even today.
According to the information you've gathered, a number of people were present in and around Boutwell's residence on Nov. 2 and Nov. 3. There were the unidentified persons who "left in the night" on Nov. 2. The following day, Kreis or an alleged associate is seen outside her home. Later, Boutwell's grandmother is told that she "may be dead" by an unidentified female. What was going on at her house that night?
I'm absolutely floored. Something evil was happening in this county in October-November 2005.
[–]August141981[S]
thank you
Something evil has been happening there for decades.
She was a young girl who had friends over that is not out of the ordinary but what happened to her and what led up to her death is not ordinary and should absolutely be investigated.
If we allow fear of speaking up and speaking out prevent us from exposing truth!
Then evil wins
[–]lilypadbitch
Evil shall not win if those who know the truth come forward and stop the cycle of corruption. It is like a family with a hidden secret and no one wants to exposé it because then everyone will know the sins of the family.
I think there is more secrets that the state of WI does not want the rest of the country to know about but I bet we are all guilty of the same corruption.
Sad to say but this goes all the way to the top of our leadership here in the US.
[–]August141981[S]
your absolutely correct from what I've seen and it isn't just this case there are many others of the like. This doesn't happen unless you have higher ups either covering or involved...when it comes down to it if they have kept these secrets this long they are responsible.
[–][deleted]
After reading this it's starting to feel like the CB case needs its own forum. A lot of info will get lost in this thread so it would be great to have something more in depth where the whole case can be taken apart.
[–]August141981[S]
11 years ago today CB family laid her to rest, amongst all the noice and utter chaos that was thrown into their world. They were kept in a state that they were unable to see everything that was going on outside of their devastation and loss
same MO as Avery case
[–]hopeville
When I first heard about MTSO offering to cremate CB, I figured it was her bones on SA's property. TH's bones are long gone. Unless there was 100% proof that some of them were in fact hers. But I don't recall that being the case.
[–]August141981[S]
I'd love to sing to the world about a girl named CB. but if my information seems vague then I apologize and you are free to ask anything further. Should I be able to further indulge in answering I will. However the people I've spoken with I earned their respect and trust and I would not intentionally jeopardize the bond of friendship. We have created over these past few months. Sometimes things just can't be said for good reason. CB death has never been investigated if you catch my drift.
[–]NewbieDoobieDoo7
Okay so you're saying you personally spoke (over the internet?) with people close to CB and/or the investigation (or lack thereof)? Have you vetted these people to make sure they are who they say they are? I'm not trying to get you to divulge your source(s) but we've been lied to before...
[–]August141981[S]
spoke personally yes as has others & they have been vetted.
Just to be clear I'm not a lone wolf and I'm not a "you heard it hear first kind of person"
Foghaze is one of a small group of people who has been introduced to some of the sources.
It's going to go down like domino's
[–]NewbieDoobieDoo7
So people close to the CB case think that there is a link between her and THs death?
[–]August141981[S]
All who have directly connected ourselves to CB and those who knew her say this. "If CB is not connected to this, Her death requires a complete and trustworthy investigation"
We will all support it and demand it.
[–]lilypadbitch
What was CB doing leading up to October 31, 2005 Prior to October 31/05 - CB had met with LE days prior to her death. Her grandmother had driven her to an out of the place location where they met LE and CB sat in the back seat of LE’s car refusing to tell them what they wanted to hear. She was nervous and anxious about this meeting. August141981
What LE was involved in meeting with her? What was the reason for her to meet with them?
If we knew more about what CB and TH where doing months before Oct. 31st it could tell a lot about what happened to both of them. What was going on in their life prior to Oct 31?
Thank you for posting August141981 I have been waiting to see your insight to the CB connection.
There is some disturbing stuff going on in the shadows of this investigation. This is no coincidence to the connections of events. I believe there is some deep organized criminal activity going on in WI that they are desperately trying to keep hidden.
[–]August141981[S]
Thanks for letting me high jack your thread awhile back. I've dipped my toes in this CB conversation or at least attempted since late Jan early feb and well conversations never ended nicely or no one was just open to discuss. I was thankful for the open conversation.
We can't be 100% certain. So open conversation is really helpful to us all. Fact finding and then creating our own understanding of the case.
[–][deleted]
Did you have a different name then? I was mmh150 or cremation of sam mcgee and I believe I was one of the first, if not the first to bring up CB's coincidental death mid Jan. (I'm not bragging, its just that people shot me down very quickly and I can't recall your involvement in the discussions, for some reason). Your filling in the blanks of this story is fascinating to me, therefore. I have always believed in justice for CB as well as others caught up in this mess.
[–]August141981[S]
yes I used a different name. To be honest I didn't even use reddit in the beginning. I used fb and other venues. I was horrified when I seen previous posts in here from a while back where people were disrespecting my personal space and bombarding comments with my personal full name, who I was, who I associate with. All eager to negatively bash me and discredit the information found. So I stepped away and have recently returned because those I trust encouraged me to do so.
[–]ahhhreallynow
Any known connections between SB or RH or TH on a social level?
[–]August141981[S]
You mean with CB? No one I spoke with was able to connect any of those 3 with CB.
[–]August141981[S]
Yes I believe CB was the target/victim. When you take all the evidence and not just what they chose to use in Avery/Dassey trials. Sort through it and CB always ends up as the most possible. LE and media went immediately to the story line of rape/torture/mutilation and zero news on CB suspicious death. If you don't talk about it just goes away. Or so they thought.
[–]ICUNurse1
I have read this post no less than five times since it was originally posted. There are so many questions I have and know you probably can't answer. But I feel sad that if this indeed true, a young woman was used to disguise corruption and hatred. Although I feel bad for TH's parents, I feel worse for CB's
[–]August141981[S]
Thank you for saying that I have honestly wept many times since a girl named CB opened my eyes to just shocking information.
Everyone's life matters. We all want truth not lies.
[–]Kkman1971
I remember another great former poster that seems to have disappeared as of late. TID was very interested in the CB "coincidence" aspect as well.... it seems there is much more to this story and I am sure we will all learn more about it when KZ lays out the "shock and horror" of this entire enigma. You can check out his last update on it on his website here... more things that make you go "hummmmmm"... TID
[–]August141981[S]
yes Inspiring is also included in our group of thinkers and has sat in conversations as a group and found information on his own as well.
[–]Messwiththebull
Manitowoc LE serial killers?
[–]August141981[S]
that would be an accusation that I'm not prepared to take a stance on however a full investigation of many cases involving said individuals should be happening!
[–]DaveBegotka
These is not the only questionable crimes committed in this area..... this group of people have dirt and blood all over their hands
[–]lilypadbitch
This is so true and IMO has been going on for a long, long, long time. They ALL need to be exposed and held responsible for their crimes.
Time to WAKE UP WISCONSIN! Quit lying and hiding your dirty little secrets.
IMO - Shut the entire State down and start over with people who #1. Not related and #2. They can do their fricken Job with integrity and without hidden agendas.
[–]DaveBegotka
Sounds like the only choice because the corruption goes all the way to the top.
